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Re: �Kelley� and Weston

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  • solsticewooddragon
    Hello, and welcome to the list! We re pretty quiet these days...most of the conversation has moved on to other places. From my own limited knowledge of Kelley
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2013
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      Hello, and welcome to the list! We're pretty quiet these days...most of the conversation has moved on to other places.

      From my own limited knowledge of Kelley and Weston, I can tell you that what Mr. Souttar is saying makes no sense to me, so I have no idea if he's joking or not.

      As for his interesting comments about Touchet and Edward Talbot... ditto. Maybe he'll tell us sometime later.

      I did run into an old history of Hallamshire that said that Edward Talbot (the earl of Shrewsbury , brother of Gilbert Talbot, the previous earl) actually plotted to kill his brother, with the support of quite a few others, as something about Gilbert made him rather unpopular. I suspect that has little to do with the sex-and-power scandal of discussed below, but then as I said, I could make no sense of this message anyway.

      Happy New Year!

      LVX,

      Terry

      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "cinnabarrio@..." <cinnabarrio@...> wrote:
      >
      > Excuse me, I am new to the list, but is this a joke or something really you are discussing? I have searched the archives but I cannot comprehend this message.
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, souttar john <johnsouttar@> wrote:
      > >
      > > off at a completely unrelated tandem probably unless one accepts the
      > > Talbot/Shrewsbury/Kelley connection but-
      > >
      > >
      > > George Touchet was a university friend of Edward Talbot 8th Earl of
      > > Shrewsbury. Both were at Magdelen Oxford. You will probably not want to
      > > know this but I consider ity to be the link between `Kelley' and Weston.
      > > Anyway I will refrain from comment but am sure those here can see some
      > > interesting coincidences.
      > >
      > > "
      > >
      > > *George Tuchet, 1st Earl of Castlehaven* (c. 1551 �
      > > 1617),*[1]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-Burke-0>was the
      > > son of
      > > *Henry Tuchet, 10th Baron
      > > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Henry_Tuchet,_10th_Baron_Audley>(died
      > > 1563) and his wife, n�e Elizabeth Sneyd.
      > >
      > > He succeeded his father as *11th **Baron
      > > Audley***<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>and
      > > *8th **Baron Tuchet*** <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Tuchet> on
      > > 30 December 1563, and served in the *Parliament of
      > > England*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Parliament_of_England>from
      > > 30 September 1566 to 5 April 1614. He was a Fellow of
      > > *Magdalen College,
      > > Oxford*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Magdalen_College,_Oxford>"
      > > wiki
      > >
      > > "Whitchurch's most famous son is Sir John Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury,
      > > whose heart is buried under the porch of St Alkmund's Church. His fame is
      > > perpetuated in Shakespeare's King Henry VI, Part One. Other famous former
      > > residents include the Victorian illustrator Randolf Caldecott and the
      > > musician Sir Edward German.
      > >
      > > Hawkstone Park
      > >
      > > , Weston-under-Redcastle, SY4 5UY, 12 miles north-east of Shrewsbury off
      > > A49, between Shrewsbury and Whitchurch, is a fantasy world of follies and
      > > walks created in the 18th century, hidden paths, secret tunnels and
      > > concealed grottos.Features include the White tower, the Red Castle, a
      > > death-defying Swiss Bridge, an Indian rock passage, the magnificent
      > > Serpentine Tunnel and Gingerbread Hall"
      > > http://www.touruk.co.uk/shropshire/whitchurch.htm
      > >
      > > (NM: 16th century. *Shrewsbury
      > > Castle*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shrewsbury_Castle>,
      > > a red *sandstone* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sandstone>
      > > *castle*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Castle>fortification, and
      > > *Shrewsbury Abbey* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shrewsbury_Abbey>, a
      > > former *Benedictine* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Benedictine> *
      > > monastery* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Monastery>, were� wiki"
      > >
      > > Weston-under-Redcastle was pronounced as Westune in the 1086 *Doomsday
      > > Book*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Doomsday_Book>,
      > > it was included in the
      > > *Hundred*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hundred_(county_subdivision)>of
      > > *Hodnet* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hodnet> within the county of *
      > > Shropshire* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shropshire>. The county had
      > > a population of 21 households which was considered quite large for the time
      > > with total tax value of 3
      > > *geld*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Danegeld>units. In 1066 the
      > > value to the
      > > *lord* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Lord> was �3 whilst in 1086 was
      > > �2.
      > > *
      > >
      > > King Arthur
      > > *
      > >
      > > In one of the caves of *Hawkstone
      > > Park*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hawkstone_Park>it is rumoured
      > > that it was the burial ground of
      > > *King Arthur* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/King_Arthur>
      > >
      > > The first
      > >
      > > *castle* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Castle> at Hawkstone Park was
      > > built in 1227 by *Henry de
      > > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>,
      > > Lord of the *Welsh Marches*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Welsh_Marches>,
      > > Constable of *Shrewsbury* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shrewsbury>,
      > > and Constable of *Bridgnorth*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Bridgnorth>.
      > > The subsequent generations of Audley's were known as the *Lords of Red
      > > Castle*.
      > > *
      > >
      > > *
      > >
      > > *John Tuchet, 4th Baron
      > > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>(1371�1408)
      > > inherited the title via his sister, then survived the uprising
      > > of *Owain Glyndwr*
      > > <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r>and the
      > > *Battle of Shrewsbury*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Battle_of_Shrewsbury>in
      > > 1403, where he fought against
      > > *Henry "Hotspur" Percy* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hotspur>. His
      > > son *James Tuchet, 5th Baron
      > > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/James_Tuchet,_5th_Baron_Audley>(1398�1459)
      > > was killed by
      > > *Sir Roger Kynaston* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sir_Roger_Kynaston>,
      > > whilst leading the *House of
      > > Lancaster*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/House_of_Lancaster>at
      > > the
      > > *Battle of Blore
      > > Heath*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Battle_of_Blore_Heath>in
      > > 1459.
      > >
      > > The Audleys forfeited the title when *James Tuchet, 7th Baron
      > > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>(c. 1463�1497)
      > > led a rebellion against
      > > *King Henry VII of
      > > England*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/King_Henry_VII_of_England>in
      > > 1497 and was executed. The castle fell into ruin, but the title was
      > > restored to *John Tuchet, 8th Baron
      > > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>in 1512.
      > >
      > > Family of Love connection:
      > >
      > > "*Mervyn Touchet* (or *Audley*, Lord Audley *in his father's
      > > lifetime*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Courtesy_titles_in_the_United_Kingdom>),
      > > *2nd Earl of Castlehaven* (1593 � 14 May 1631), convicted rapist and
      > > sodomite, was the son of *George Tuchet, 1st Earl of
      > > Castlehaven*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/George_Tuchet,_1st_Earl_of_Castlehaven>(11th
      > > Baron Audley) and his wife, n�e Lucy Mervyn. He succeeded his father
      > > as 2nd *Earl of
      > > Castlehaven*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Earl_of_Castlehaven>and
      > > 12th
      > > *Baron Audley* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley> on 20
      > > February 1616/7. He left seven children upon his
      > > death.*[1]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-0>
      > >
      > > Sometime before 1612 (the historical record is unclear), Lord Audley
      > > married Elizabeth Barnham, with whom he had six children. By all accounts
      > > the marriage was a loving and successful one until it ended in 1622 with
      > > Barnham's death.
      > >
      > > *[2]* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-1> His second marriage,
      > > on 22 July 1624, at *Harefield*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Harefield>,
      > > *Middlesex* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Middlesex>, was to Lady *Anne
      > > Stanley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Anne_Stanley,_Countess_of_Castlehaven>(1580�1647),
      > > elder daughter and co-heiress of
      > > *Ferdinando Stanley, 5th Earl of
      > > Derby*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Ferdinando_Stanley,_5th_Earl_of_Derby>and
      > > widow of
      > > *Grey Brydges, 5th Baron
      > > Chandos*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Grey_Brydges,_5th_Baron_Chandos>.
      > > They had a daughter, Anne Touchet, who died young.
      > > *[1]*<http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/castlehaven.html>Lady
      > > Anne was significantly older than Castlehaven.
      > > *[3]* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-merv-2> Their marriage
      > > was not a success but in 1628 his heir was married to her 13 year-old
      > > daughter
      > >
      > > At his trial it was claimed that in 1621 *Henry
      > > Skipwith*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Skipwith_Baronets>arrived
      > > at Fonthill Gifford and within a few years was so close to the Earl
      > > that he sat at the family table and was to be addressed as "Mister" by the
      > > servants. Several years later Giles Broadway arrived at the mansion and
      > > received a similar treatment. It was not long before the Earl was providing
      > > Skipwith with an annual pension to spend and attempting to have Skipwith
      > > inseminate his daughter-in-law so as to have an heir from Skipwith instead
      > > of his son. In fact the countess and Skipwith had an adulterous
      > > relationship.
      > >
      > > His son, James, claimed that the extent of Castlehaven's uxoriousness
      > > toward his male favorites led to his initial registration of complaint in
      > > October 1630.*[4]*
      > > <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-3>Castlehaven's trial
      > > aroused continuing public debate, witnesses were almost
      > > certainly suborned, he maintained his innocence to the last, the jury was
      > > split on both charges, almost evenly on the sodomy charge, and the case
      > > remains of interest to some as an early trial concerning male
      > > homosexuality. In the long run the trial's greatest influence proved to
      > > have been as a precedent in spousal rights, the leading case behind an
      > > injured wife's right to testify against her
      > > husband.*[3]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-merv-2>
      > >
      > > The charges were brought against Castlehaven on the complaint of his heir,
      > > who feared disinheritance, and were heard by the
      > >
      > > *Privy Council*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Privy_Council_of_the_United_Kingdom>,
      > > under the direction of Thomas Coventry, Lord High Steward. The Countess
      > > described a household she said was infested with debauchery. The
      > > Attorney-General explained to the court the Earl had become ill because "he
      > > believed not God" and this impiety made Castlehaven unsafe. The Earl
      > > insisted he was not guilty but that his wife and son had conspired in this
      > > attempt to commit judicial murder.
      > >
      > > All witnesses against him would gain materially by his death. "News writers
      > > throughout England and as far away as Massachusetts Bay speculated about
      > > the outcome."*[3]* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-merv-2>
      > >
      > > Castlehaven was convicted attainted and three weeks later executed,
      > >
      > > *beheaded* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Beheading>, on *Tower
      > > Hill*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Tower_Hill,_London>for his
      > > *sexual crimes* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sexual_crime>: an
      > > "unnatural crime", i.e. *sodomy* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sodomy>,
      > > committed with his *page*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Page_(servant)>,
      > > Laurence [or Florence] FitzPatrick, who confessed to the crime and was
      > > executed and for assisting Giles Browning (or Giles Broadway), also
      > > executed, in the rape of his, the Earl's, wife, Anne the Countess of
      > > Castlehaven, in which Lord Castlehaven himself participated by restraining
      > > her.
      > >
      > > The page who was executed, Laurence FitzPatrick, testified that Anne,
      > > Countess of Castlehaven, "was the wickedest woman in the world, and had
      > > more to answer for than any woman that lived."
      > >
      > > Cokayne, in the *Complete Peerage* adds that the death of the Earl was
      > > certainly brought about by the Countess's manipulations, and her
      > > unquestionable adultery with one Ampthill and with *Henry
      > > Skipwith*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Skipwith_Baronets>,
      > > renders her motive suspicious.
      > >
      > > According to Cynthia B.
      > > Herrup,*[5]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-4>Anne was the
      > > equal of Lord Castlehaven in immorality.
      > >
      > > Under the attainder Castlehaven forfeited his English Barony of Audley,
      > > created for *heirs general*, but retained his Irish Earldom and Barony
      > > since it was an entailed honour protected by the statute *De
      > > Donis***<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/De_Donis>.
      > > When he was *beheaded* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Beheading> on
      > > Tower Hill on 14 May 1631, those Irish titles passed to his son,
      > > *James*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/James_Tuchet,_3rd_Earl_of_Castlehaven>."
      > > wikipedia
      > >
      > > (NB Mervyn Tuchet, 4th Earl of Castlehaven was the son of *Mervyn Tuchet,
      > > 2nd Earl of Castlehaven*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p4754.htm%20/%20i47539>and
      > > *Elizabeth Barnham*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p2728.htm%20/%20i27276>
      > > .2 He married *Lady Mary
      > > Talbot*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p4757.htm%20/%20i47568>,
      > > daughter of *John Talbot, 10th Earl of
      > > Shrewsbury*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p1235.htm%20/%20i12344>)
      > >
      > > Mind you Sir Francis Weston was the man beheaded for adultery with Anne
      > > Boleyn and left a son Henry. Francis was also considered a womaniser and
      > > doubtless brought Anne's fate upon her head because of this.
      > >
      > > There are also Weston connections with Jane Ogle and her sister katherine,
      > > the Cavendish family to which she was married. Jane was the long suffering
      > > wife of Edward Talbot both of whom are buried in Westminster Abbey.
      > >
      > > These days aliases tend to have no connections, or random connections but
      > > in Tudor times there invariably was a connection which would amuse Burghley
      > > and those frequenting the Mermaid.
      > >
      > > But who knows. Good luck finding out.
      > >
      > > John Souttar
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On 27 September 2012 12:16, chicorea2 <chicorea@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hi everybody,
      > > >
      > > > I am glad Betsy brought to the discussion suggested by Terry the mention
      > > > of the Dumas Club. This is a wondeful book, by far the best Arturo Perez
      > > > Reverte ever wrote (unless, of course, you are an affictionado of diving
      > > > suits, fencing, chess or spanish Tercios).
      > > >
      > > > Concerning one of the books that Perez Reverte puts on the center of the
      > > > plot (there are two, The Nine Gates and The Three Musketeers), the Nine
      > > > Gates have a charming story : printed by a ventian printer (somebody should
      > > > write a book about the venetian printers, they have amazing stories),
      > > > Aristide Torchia, it is supposed to have been dictated to him by Lucifer
      > > > himself, that took the role of artist and made the illustrations. Torchia,
      > > > of course, goes to the bonfire (with an enigmatic smile) but three editions
      > > > of the book survive. Well, Perez Reverte seems to appreciate to create
      > > > fictional book-characters. On another of his novels, a book about fencing
      > > > is the masterpiece of one of the main characters and this fictional fencing
      > > > manual is even quoted en passant on the Club Dumas as a rare and coveted
      > > > book.
      > > >
      > > > The assimilation of Torchia and Bruno seems to me less obvious. Both died
      > > > in similar circumstances, but Bruno never really played the Devil worship
      > > > character, treating magick on the same basis of his Renaissence kind, Dee
      > > > included. I find interensting how the character of Torchia superimpose
      > > > instances : he is the writer and the printer in a single body, something
      > > > not that usual for the time (Torchia could be sold as a martyr of the
      > > > independent editing, but I'm not sure anybody would buy this idea�),
      > > > particulary in Venice. The timeframe is not the same of Bruno or Dee
      > > > either, being better fit on the 30 Years War and Counter-Reformation
      > > > background.
      > > >
      > > > All this said, I must bow to the literary taste of Betsy to bring this
      > > > book to us.
      > > >
      > > > But what really shocked me on the discussion of the Dumas Club here is
      > > > that one of the main pieces of the plot, another subversive book, extremely
      > > > real, easy to find and even more delicious to read passed under the radar :
      > > > Jacques Cazotte's Le Diable Amoureux. And there is where the Club Dumas fit
      > > > as a glove to the discussion proposed by Terry : in both, The Dumas Club
      > > > and The Devil In Love, sommoning the fallen angel is to fall in love with
      > > > it, literally. Irene / Biondetta accept to be become sidekicks, slaves of
      > > > their masters and show a remarkably fragility of their angelic side. Irene
      > > > / Biondetta fall much more naturally on the fairy cathegory than the
      > > > devilish one. Of course, Irene is 100% inspired by Biondetta and the Diable
      > > > Amoureux is a book that caused stir during the XVIIIth century in France.
      > > > Many anedoctes started to be associated with Cazotte, like the visits from
      > > > actual Devil worshippers he started to have (they wanted him to confess how
      > > > he had so many acurate informations about rites, charms and words) or the
      > > > fact that Cazotte predicted with accuracy who would survive and who would
      > > > perish during La Terreur, the time of the popular jurys of the French
      > > > Revolution, but this can be credited to editors and literary agents, you
      > > > see.
      > > >
      > > > I suggest that Terry take a look on the Devil In Love and the Dumas Club,
      > > > if not for a special kind of literary delight, at least to track some of
      > > > the references to the pratice of fall in love / indulge ritualistic sex
      > > > with fairy, demonic or angelic entities.
      > > >
      > > > Chico
      > > >
      > > > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Noaell
      > > > <ClaireNoaell@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Terry,
      > > > > Just reading your most recent e-mail and mention of Bruno again. In part
      > > > that's why I included this... see the quote after link regarding Aristide
      > > > Torchia.. (invented character) but based on life of Giordano Bruno... it
      > > > conjectures.
      > > > >
      > > > > Also Philip Coppens even has a page that concerns the Alexander Dumas
      > > > Club and fictional book I referenced previously.
      > > > http://www.philipcoppens.com/ninthgate.html
      > > > >
      > > > > Betsy
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I love tangents, Betsy... you must know that by now! Anyway, you're the
      > > > list owner, so I think you can do whatever you want until Yahoo kicks us
      > > > off!
      > > > >
      > > > > Actually I had no idea about this fiction until you started posting
      > > > this, so thanks.
      > > > >
      > > > > Aaron and Terry... It is amazing still to me what forms these will take
      > > > by those who know little, or those who know much?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristide_Torchia
      > > > > > quoting: "A possible real-life inspiration for this character may have
      > > > been Giordano Bruno, who, like Torchia, was an Italian mystic and
      > > > philosopher whose controversial books earned him the scorn of the
      > > > Inquisition, who burned him at the stake in 1600."
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > "Creativity & Humor Are Liberating Forces"
      > > > > martha mouseville
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: solsticewooddragon <tmichelle57@>
      > > > > To: AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee <
      > > > AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > Sent: Sun, Sep 23, 2012 11:36 am
      > > > > Subject: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Re: Book of magic, with
      > > > instructions for invoking Italian mystics
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Noaell
      > > > <ClaireNoaell@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I really had to include these Terry. From the serious to the sublime
      > > > to the ridiculous ? Nevertheless... You asked that people jump into the
      > > > conversation ... Call it a tangent... :)
      > > > >
      > > > > I love tangents, Betsy... you must know that by now! Anyway, you're the
      > > > list owner, so I think you can do whatever you want until Yahoo kicks us
      > > > off!
      > > > >
      > > > > Actually I had no idea about this fiction until you started posting
      > > > this, so thanks.
      > > > >
      > > > > Aaron and Terry... It is amazing still to me what forms these will take
      > > > by those who know little, or those who know much?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristide_Torchia
      > > > > > quoting: "A possible real-life inspiration for this character may have
      > > > been Giordano Bruno, who, like Torchia, was an Italian mystic and
      > > > philosopher whose controversial books earned him the scorn of the
      > > > Inquisition, who burned him at the stake in 1600."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > And lastly....
      > > > > > http://www.necrogate.com/wp/delomelanicon-nine-gates.html
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Betsy
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • souttar john
      Hi Chico No it was not a joke but as my views on Kelly being the eventual Earl of Shrewsbury are seen to be ridiculous, it would seem like that. Terri
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 13, 2013
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        Hi Chico
         
        No it was not a joke but as my views on Kelly being the eventual Earl of Shrewsbury are seen to be ridiculous, it would seem like that. Terri mentioned the poisoned gloves and that is one of the stranger matters of Talbot. His doctor tried to poison the Earl of Shewsbury, Britain's Premier Earl at the time. He was caught and with Edward Talbot hailed before the Star Chamber. Although he was clearly guilty they let Edward off and merely cropped the ears of his physician. that is very odd under the  circumstances and is the reason I believe that many sniggered that Kelly had had his ears cropped. There is no real eveidence that they were. If i were right then as Joanna Weston would in fact be Jane Ogle, I see as relevant Talbot's closeness to Weston Park and possible relationship with Sir Francis Weston who was executed long before for seducuing Ann Boleyn. The intyernet has a few portraits of Edward these days, none when I started on this trail.
         
        I wanted to mention a man who is not on this list as far as I know and sadly died on Boxing Day. He will be known to some of you and a good friend to a few. Anders or Andrew Rowland is an Englishman who spent the last few years challenging lies, distortions and corruption on various forums. Anders was tireless in his pursuit of the late British DJ Jimmy Savile who abused hundreds, many in their hospital beds. It was an almost impossible task to reveal the truth about Savile as he was so highly respected, even by the Royal Family.  Andrew gave me an extremely hard time when I first came across him on GLP perhaps nine years ago but without such tussles where would we be - not the people we became and stronger for it. I am very sad that he has died - he suffered with renal cancer metastasis in the lungs RCC. His cremation is at 12.45 in Reading on Wednesday. A man who is revered by thousands who never met him, and an author, he will have a funeral attended by many virtual friends and family. God Bless.
         
        reve

        On 30 December 2012 20:09, cinnabarrio@... <cinnabarrio@...> wrote:
         

        Excuse me, I am new to the list, but is this a joke or something really you are discussing? I have searched the archives but I cannot comprehend this message.

        Thank you.

        --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, souttar john <johnsouttar@...> wrote:
        >
        > off at a completely unrelated tandem probably unless one accepts the
        > Talbot/Shrewsbury/Kelley connection but-
        >
        >
        > George Touchet was a university friend of Edward Talbot 8th Earl of
        > Shrewsbury. Both were at Magdelen Oxford. You will probably not want to
        > know this but I consider ity to be the link between `Kelley' and Weston.
        > Anyway I will refrain from comment but am sure those here can see some
        > interesting coincidences.
        >
        > "
        >
        > *George Tuchet, 1st Earl of Castlehaven* (c. 1551 –
        > 1617),*[1]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-Burke-0>was the
        > son of
        > *Henry Tuchet, 10th Baron
        > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Henry_Tuchet,_10th_Baron_Audley>(died
        > 1563) and his wife, née Elizabeth Sneyd.
        >
        > He succeeded his father as *11th **Baron
        > Audley***<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>and
        > *8th **Baron Tuchet*** <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Tuchet> on
        > 30 December 1563, and served in the *Parliament of
        > England*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Parliament_of_England>from
        > 30 September 1566 to 5 April 1614. He was a Fellow of
        > *Magdalen College,
        > Oxford*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Magdalen_College,_Oxford>"
        > wiki
        >
        > "Whitchurch's most famous son is Sir John Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury,
        > whose heart is buried under the porch of St Alkmund's Church. His fame is
        > perpetuated in Shakespeare's King Henry VI, Part One. Other famous former
        > residents include the Victorian illustrator Randolf Caldecott and the
        > musician Sir Edward German.
        >
        > Hawkstone Park
        >
        > , Weston-under-Redcastle, SY4 5UY, 12 miles north-east of Shrewsbury off
        > A49, between Shrewsbury and Whitchurch, is a fantasy world of follies and
        > walks created in the 18th century, hidden paths, secret tunnels and
        > concealed grottos.Features include the White tower, the Red Castle, a
        > death-defying Swiss Bridge, an Indian rock passage, the magnificent
        > Serpentine Tunnel and Gingerbread Hall"
        > http://www.touruk.co.uk/shropshire/whitchurch.htm
        >
        > (NM: 16th century. *Shrewsbury
        > Castle*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shrewsbury_Castle>,
        > a red *sandstone* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sandstone>
        > *castle*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Castle>fortification, and
        > *Shrewsbury Abbey* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shrewsbury_Abbey>, a
        > former *Benedictine* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Benedictine> *
        > monastery* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Monastery>, were… wiki"
        >
        > Weston-under-Redcastle was pronounced as Westune in the 1086 *Doomsday
        > Book*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Doomsday_Book>,
        > it was included in the
        > *Hundred*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hundred_(county_subdivision)>of
        > *Hodnet* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hodnet> within the county of *
        > Shropshire* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shropshire>. The county had
        > a population of 21 households which was considered quite large for the time
        > with total tax value of 3
        > *geld*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Danegeld>units. In 1066 the
        > value to the
        > *lord* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Lord> was £3 whilst in 1086 was
        > £2.
        > *
        >
        > King Arthur
        > *
        >
        > In one of the caves of *Hawkstone
        > Park*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hawkstone_Park>it is rumoured
        > that it was the burial ground of
        > *King Arthur* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/King_Arthur>
        >
        > The first
        >
        > *castle* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Castle> at Hawkstone Park was
        > built in 1227 by *Henry de
        > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>,
        > Lord of the *Welsh Marches*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Welsh_Marches>,
        > Constable of *Shrewsbury* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Shrewsbury>,
        > and Constable of *Bridgnorth*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Bridgnorth>.
        > The subsequent generations of Audley's were known as the *Lords of Red
        > Castle*.
        > *
        >
        > *
        >
        > *John Tuchet, 4th Baron
        > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>(1371–1408)
        > inherited the title via his sister, then survived the uprising
        > of *Owain Glyndwr*
        > <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r>and the
        > *Battle of Shrewsbury*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Battle_of_Shrewsbury>in
        > 1403, where he fought against
        > *Henry "Hotspur" Percy* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Hotspur>. His
        > son *James Tuchet, 5th Baron
        > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/James_Tuchet,_5th_Baron_Audley>(1398–1459)
        > was killed by
        > *Sir Roger Kynaston* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sir_Roger_Kynaston>,
        > whilst leading the *House of
        > Lancaster*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/House_of_Lancaster>at
        > the
        > *Battle of Blore
        > Heath*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Battle_of_Blore_Heath>in
        > 1459.
        >
        > The Audleys forfeited the title when *James Tuchet, 7th Baron
        > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>(c. 1463–1497)
        > led a rebellion against
        > *King Henry VII of
        > England*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/King_Henry_VII_of_England>in
        > 1497 and was executed. The castle fell into ruin, but the title was
        > restored to *John Tuchet, 8th Baron
        > Audley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley>in 1512.
        >
        > Family of Love connection:
        >
        > "*Mervyn Touchet* (or *Audley*, Lord Audley *in his father's
        > lifetime*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Courtesy_titles_in_the_United_Kingdom>),
        > *2nd Earl of Castlehaven* (1593 – 14 May 1631), convicted rapist and
        > sodomite, was the son of *George Tuchet, 1st Earl of
        > Castlehaven*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/George_Tuchet,_1st_Earl_of_Castlehaven>(11th
        > Baron Audley) and his wife, née Lucy Mervyn. He succeeded his father
        > as 2nd *Earl of
        > Castlehaven*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Earl_of_Castlehaven>and
        > 12th
        > *Baron Audley* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Baron_Audley> on 20
        > February 1616/7. He left seven children upon his
        > death.*[1]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-0>
        >
        > Sometime before 1612 (the historical record is unclear), Lord Audley
        > married Elizabeth Barnham, with whom he had six children. By all accounts
        > the marriage was a loving and successful one until it ended in 1622 with
        > Barnham's death.
        >
        > *[2]* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-1> His second marriage,
        > on 22 July 1624, at *Harefield*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Harefield>,
        > *Middlesex* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Middlesex>, was to Lady *Anne
        > Stanley*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Anne_Stanley,_Countess_of_Castlehaven>(1580–1647),
        > elder daughter and co-heiress of
        > *Ferdinando Stanley, 5th Earl of
        > Derby*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Ferdinando_Stanley,_5th_Earl_of_Derby>and
        > widow of
        > *Grey Brydges, 5th Baron
        > Chandos*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Grey_Brydges,_5th_Baron_Chandos>.
        > They had a daughter, Anne Touchet, who died young.
        > *[1]*<http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/castlehaven.html>Lady
        > Anne was significantly older than Castlehaven.
        > *[3]* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-merv-2> Their marriage
        > was not a success but in 1628 his heir was married to her 13 year-old
        > daughter
        >
        > At his trial it was claimed that in 1621 *Henry
        > Skipwith*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Skipwith_Baronets>arrived
        > at Fonthill Gifford and within a few years was so close to the Earl
        > that he sat at the family table and was to be addressed as "Mister" by the
        > servants. Several years later Giles Broadway arrived at the mansion and
        > received a similar treatment. It was not long before the Earl was providing
        > Skipwith with an annual pension to spend and attempting to have Skipwith
        > inseminate his daughter-in-law so as to have an heir from Skipwith instead
        > of his son. In fact the countess and Skipwith had an adulterous
        > relationship.
        >
        > His son, James, claimed that the extent of Castlehaven's uxoriousness
        > toward his male favorites led to his initial registration of complaint in
        > October 1630.*[4]*
        > <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-3>Castlehaven's trial
        > aroused continuing public debate, witnesses were almost
        > certainly suborned, he maintained his innocence to the last, the jury was
        > split on both charges, almost evenly on the sodomy charge, and the case
        > remains of interest to some as an early trial concerning male
        > homosexuality. In the long run the trial's greatest influence proved to
        > have been as a precedent in spousal rights, the leading case behind an
        > injured wife's right to testify against her
        > husband.*[3]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-merv-2>
        >
        > The charges were brought against Castlehaven on the complaint of his heir,
        > who feared disinheritance, and were heard by the
        >
        > *Privy Council*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Privy_Council_of_the_United_Kingdom>,
        > under the direction of Thomas Coventry, Lord High Steward. The Countess
        > described a household she said was infested with debauchery. The
        > Attorney-General explained to the court the Earl had become ill because "he
        > believed not God" and this impiety made Castlehaven unsafe. The Earl
        > insisted he was not guilty but that his wife and son had conspired in this
        > attempt to commit judicial murder.
        >
        > All witnesses against him would gain materially by his death. "News writers
        > throughout England and as far away as Massachusetts Bay speculated about
        > the outcome."*[3]* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-merv-2>
        >
        > Castlehaven was convicted attainted and three weeks later executed,
        >
        > *beheaded* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Beheading>, on *Tower
        > Hill*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Tower_Hill,_London>for his
        > *sexual crimes* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sexual_crime>: an
        > "unnatural crime", i.e. *sodomy* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Sodomy>,
        > committed with his *page*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Page_(servant)>,
        > Laurence [or Florence] FitzPatrick, who confessed to the crime and was
        > executed and for assisting Giles Browning (or Giles Broadway), also
        > executed, in the rape of his, the Earl's, wife, Anne the Countess of
        > Castlehaven, in which Lord Castlehaven himself participated by restraining
        > her.
        >
        > The page who was executed, Laurence FitzPatrick, testified that Anne,
        > Countess of Castlehaven, "was the wickedest woman in the world, and had
        > more to answer for than any woman that lived."
        >
        > Cokayne, in the *Complete Peerage* adds that the death of the Earl was
        > certainly brought about by the Countess's manipulations, and her
        > unquestionable adultery with one Ampthill and with *Henry
        > Skipwith*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Skipwith_Baronets>,
        > renders her motive suspicious.
        >
        > According to Cynthia B.
        > Herrup,*[5]*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/%20cite_note-4>Anne was the
        > equal of Lord Castlehaven in immorality.
        >
        > Under the attainder Castlehaven forfeited his English Barony of Audley,
        > created for *heirs general*, but retained his Irish Earldom and Barony
        > since it was an entailed honour protected by the statute *De
        > Donis***<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/De_Donis>.
        > When he was *beheaded* <https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/Beheading> on
        > Tower Hill on 14 May 1631, those Irish titles passed to his son,
        > *James*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/wiki/James_Tuchet,_3rd_Earl_of_Castlehaven>."
        > wikipedia
        >
        > (NB Mervyn Tuchet, 4th Earl of Castlehaven was the son of *Mervyn Tuchet,
        > 2nd Earl of Castlehaven*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p4754.htm%20/%20i47539>and
        > *Elizabeth Barnham*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p2728.htm%20/%20i27276>
        > .2 He married *Lady Mary
        > Talbot*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p4757.htm%20/%20i47568>,
        > daughter of *John Talbot, 10th Earl of
        > Shrewsbury*<https://mail.blueyonder.co.uk/mail/html/compose/static_files/p1235.htm%20/%20i12344>)
        >
        > Mind you Sir Francis Weston was the man beheaded for adultery with Anne
        > Boleyn and left a son Henry. Francis was also considered a womaniser and
        > doubtless brought Anne's fate upon her head because of this.
        >
        > There are also Weston connections with Jane Ogle and her sister katherine,
        > the Cavendish family to which she was married. Jane was the long suffering
        > wife of Edward Talbot both of whom are buried in Westminster Abbey.
        >
        > These days aliases tend to have no connections, or random connections but
        > in Tudor times there invariably was a connection which would amuse Burghley
        > and those frequenting the Mermaid.
        >
        > But who knows. Good luck finding out.
        >
        > John Souttar
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On 27 September 2012 12:16, chicorea2 <chicorea@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi everybody,
        > >
        > > I am glad Betsy brought to the discussion suggested by Terry the mention
        > > of the Dumas Club. This is a wondeful book, by far the best Arturo Perez
        > > Reverte ever wrote (unless, of course, you are an affictionado of diving
        > > suits, fencing, chess or spanish Tercios).
        > >
        > > Concerning one of the books that Perez Reverte puts on the center of the
        > > plot (there are two, The Nine Gates and The Three Musketeers), the Nine
        > > Gates have a charming story : printed by a ventian printer (somebody should
        > > write a book about the venetian printers, they have amazing stories),
        > > Aristide Torchia, it is supposed to have been dictated to him by Lucifer
        > > himself, that took the role of artist and made the illustrations. Torchia,
        > > of course, goes to the bonfire (with an enigmatic smile) but three editions
        > > of the book survive. Well, Perez Reverte seems to appreciate to create
        > > fictional book-characters. On another of his novels, a book about fencing
        > > is the masterpiece of one of the main characters and this fictional fencing
        > > manual is even quoted en passant on the Club Dumas as a rare and coveted
        > > book.
        > >
        > > The assimilation of Torchia and Bruno seems to me less obvious. Both died
        > > in similar circumstances, but Bruno never really played the Devil worship
        > > character, treating magick on the same basis of his Renaissence kind, Dee
        > > included. I find interensting how the character of Torchia superimpose
        > > instances : he is the writer and the printer in a single body, something
        > > not that usual for the time (Torchia could be sold as a martyr of the
        > > independent editing, but I'm not sure anybody would buy this idea…),
        > > particulary in Venice. The timeframe is not the same of Bruno or Dee
        > > either, being better fit on the 30 Years War and Counter-Reformation
        > > background.
        > >
        > > All this said, I must bow to the literary taste of Betsy to bring this
        > > book to us.
        > >
        > > But what really shocked me on the discussion of the Dumas Club here is
        > > that one of the main pieces of the plot, another subversive book, extremely
        > > real, easy to find and even more delicious to read passed under the radar :
        > > Jacques Cazotte's Le Diable Amoureux. And there is where the Club Dumas fit
        > > as a glove to the discussion proposed by Terry : in both, The Dumas Club
        > > and The Devil In Love, sommoning the fallen angel is to fall in love with
        > > it, literally. Irene / Biondetta accept to be become sidekicks, slaves of
        > > their masters and show a remarkably fragility of their angelic side. Irene
        > > / Biondetta fall much more naturally on the fairy cathegory than the
        > > devilish one. Of course, Irene is 100% inspired by Biondetta and the Diable
        > > Amoureux is a book that caused stir during the XVIIIth century in France.
        > > Many anedoctes started to be associated with Cazotte, like the visits from
        > > actual Devil worshippers he started to have (they wanted him to confess how
        > > he had so many acurate informations about rites, charms and words) or the
        > > fact that Cazotte predicted with accuracy who would survive and who would
        > > perish during La Terreur, the time of the popular jurys of the French
        > > Revolution, but this can be credited to editors and literary agents, you
        > > see.
        > >
        > > I suggest that Terry take a look on the Devil In Love and the Dumas Club,
        > > if not for a special kind of literary delight, at least to track some of
        > > the references to the pratice of fall in love / indulge ritualistic sex
        > > with fairy, demonic or angelic entities.
        > >
        > > Chico
        > >
        > > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Noaell
        > > <ClaireNoaell@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi Terry,
        > > > Just reading your most recent e-mail and mention of Bruno again. In part
        > > that's why I included this... see the quote after link regarding Aristide
        > > Torchia.. (invented character) but based on life of Giordano Bruno... it
        > > conjectures.
        > > >
        > > > Also Philip Coppens even has a page that concerns the Alexander Dumas
        > > Club and fictional book I referenced previously.
        > > http://www.philipcoppens.com/ninthgate.html
        > > >
        > > > Betsy
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I love tangents, Betsy... you must know that by now! Anyway, you're the
        > > list owner, so I think you can do whatever you want until Yahoo kicks us
        > > off!
        > > >
        > > > Actually I had no idea about this fiction until you started posting
        > > this, so thanks.
        > > >
        > > > Aaron and Terry... It is amazing still to me what forms these will take
        > > by those who know little, or those who know much?
        > > > >
        > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristide_Torchia
        > > > > quoting: "A possible real-life inspiration for this character may have
        > > been Giordano Bruno, who, like Torchia, was an Italian mystic and
        > > philosopher whose controversial books earned him the scorn of the
        > > Inquisition, who burned him at the stake in 1600."
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > "Creativity & Humor Are Liberating Forces"
        > > > martha mouseville
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: solsticewooddragon <tmichelle57@>
        > > > To: AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee <
        > > AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Sun, Sep 23, 2012 11:36 am
        > > > Subject: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Re: Book of magic, with
        > > instructions for invoking Italian mystics
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Noaell
        > > <ClaireNoaell@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > I really had to include these Terry. From the serious to the sublime
        > > to the ridiculous ? Nevertheless... You asked that people jump into the
        > > conversation ... Call it a tangent... :)
        > > >
        > > > I love tangents, Betsy... you must know that by now! Anyway, you're the
        > > list owner, so I think you can do whatever you want until Yahoo kicks us
        > > off!
        > > >
        > > > Actually I had no idea about this fiction until you started posting
        > > this, so thanks.
        > > >
        > > > Aaron and Terry... It is amazing still to me what forms these will take
        > > by those who know little, or those who know much?
        > > > >
        > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristide_Torchia
        > > > > quoting: "A possible real-life inspiration for this character may have
        > > been Giordano Bruno, who, like Torchia, was an Italian mystic and
        > > philosopher whose controversial books earned him the scorn of the
        > > Inquisition, who burned him at the stake in 1600."
        > > > >
        > > > > And lastly....
        > > > > http://www.necrogate.com/wp/delomelanicon-nine-gates.html
        > > > >
        > > > > Betsy
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >


      • souttar john
        Sorry Terri it was Terry! (see below) I only post as myself (John Souttar) or with my old nickname reve , as do some others including Anders. Most people knew
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 14, 2013
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          Sorry Terri it was Terry! (see below)
          �
          I only post as myself (John Souttar) or with my old nickname 'reve', as do some others including Anders. Most people knew he was Andrew Rowland. But I do respect those who choose to be more anonymous as it is not without its risks having your name plastered all over the internet.
          �
          My many proofs for the connection between Shrewsbury, Kelly and Shakespeare�are in a tome that most find impenetrable. The individual time lines and the fact that each of their 'missing years' interlock is convincing to me but I have stopped going on about it as it upsets people.
          �
          I have not found a memorial page or anything like that for Andrew. His ex apparently is coming to the cremation from Florida. One of his last threads - probably his last - he started in October 2012. In two months it had over 40,000 replies and over 4 million views. I know that will have made him happy. He was still posting throughout Christmas Eve even though on morphine by then. He made it into the new age and was highly respected in his world.�
          �
          It is a beautiful morning in Scotland�to meditate on matters which are of little general interest. Meanwhile the largest assembly on earth is congregating and bathing in the Ganges from today.� The red mists will clear later in the day.
          �
          reve x

          On 1 January 2013 16:58, solsticewooddragon <tmichelle57@...> wrote:
        • cinnabarrio@rocketmail.com
          ... Hi Reve. My name is not Chico but I am sorry for your loss. Eduardo
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 14, 2013
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            --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, souttar john wrote:
            >
            > Hi Chico
            >


            Hi Reve. My name is not Chico but I am sorry for your loss. Eduardo
          • souttar john
            Sorry Cinnabarrio I seem to be having problems with names! I worry where that will end. reve On 15 January 2013 01:43, cinnabarrio@rocketmail.com
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 15, 2013
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              Sorry Cinnabarrio I seem to be having problems with names! I worry where that will end.
               
              reve

              On 15 January 2013 01:43, cinnabarrio@... <cinnabarrio@...> wrote:
               



              --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, souttar john wrote:
              >
              > Hi Chico
              >

              Hi Reve. My name is not Chico but I am sorry for your loss. Eduardo


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