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Re: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Re: smoke and mirrors

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  • souttar john
    Dear Tom I would not be posting further on this matter but someone I respect on this forum has asked me whether I am you. That set off alarm bells and i
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 1, 2012
      Dear Tom
       
      I would not be posting further on this matter but someone I respect on this forum has asked me whether I am you. That set off alarm bells and i wondered if you were actually trying to get the forum closed down, and its invaluable archive removed, rather than share your knowledge as so many others here have done in the past.
       
      i do hope that is not so 
       
      Regards
       
      reve 

      On 30 May 2012 10:27, souttar john <johnsouttar@...> wrote:
      Hi Tom
       
      I am bemused. I do not want to upset anyone here but will give a brief resume. edward talbot and his brother were sent to Court by their father and a letter shows that E1 liked him very much. While there this dashing aristocratic youth with no chance of inheriting the Shewsbury title woul;d have met the young Jane 'Dee' who was also at court and indeed if I remeber the diary right went back to court before she conceived Arthur who may be Talbot's first son. The fact that he 'married' young Mart Herbert, his distant cousain is significant. When Talbot was introduced  to Dee jane would cedrftainly have known him and he was introduced as Edward Talbot. that crystal ball 'taken' by the angels turned up under Jane's pillow and the diary dates suggest that talbot could have been the father of a few of her children. Her rage when he left says a lot and her pretence not to like this man. dee writing in the diary the dates when he had sex suggests to me his suspicions about the two. But Talbot actually married Jane Ogle the year that Kelley married his 'Jane'. the Ogles were from Northumberland, with its connection to Talbot and he got a vast dowry from lord Ogle. the marriage was arranged by Walsingham anyway and Jane may well have gone to Europe with them. The Talbots had a fleet and Kelley was clearly an able seaman as he bailed the boat with his glove. Talbot went to Magdeln College Oxford with whom I have corresponded. kelley says he went to Oxford but there is no record. Talbot and his brother were schooled by Lord Burghley who had 24 yound aristocrats including Essex and Oxford and indeed Cecil schooled in his London house while attending court. Raleigh was frequent visitor and the young Cecil writes a star struck letter to him asking him to come back from Cornwall. Cecil, Walsingham and Burghley ran the Intelligence Service and the first Blanche Parry also in Court was the cousing of Lord B, his son Cecil and also John Dee.
       
      There is in fact so much evidence that suggests that kelley was Talbot apart from the duiary that it beggars belief that no one will accept this. The problem is that if true Kelley could not have dioed in Europe where there is no body, as he atook on the Shewsbury title when his brother the Earl eventually died, one week after Shakespeare supposedly died. The talbots owned a lot of property near the Mermaid pub and the Golobe, had their own troupe of players, masses of money and Shakespeare is said to have iunsisted on playing the regal parts. i could go on - it fills a book I wrote but have not published.
       
      Now a photo of the slate encased, lead lined documents is all I am asking. But the picture of the boy under a bridge would be fascinating. I can take you seriously but please don not wind the Forum up - we may not all agree but there are nice and serious people here, if any are left since I drove so many away, and we all do our best. New evidence would be most welcome here I assure you.
       
      all the best
       
      reve
       
      reve x
      On 30 May 2012 06:52, theminde@... <theminde@...> wrote:
       


      Greetings as ever to reve.

      I read your theory with great interest. What's your take on the Talbot-Kelley identity thing?
      Why do you say Talbot was Shrewsbury? Not Kelley?

      My post referred to Edward Kelley killing Iohn Dee. Your ideas sound excellent to me, but I wondered if you might agree with me in my reading John Dee as a sweet, if naive, old man?

      Might you might also agree that Dee was somewhat stung by Kelley's behaviour?

      I am trying to get over something quite profound but at the same time witty, concerning the two central characters Iohn Dee and Edward Kelly. (Notice by the way how Dee spells Kelley with either one or two E's?)

      Why did Kelly want to kill Dee? It was basically to do with dee's attempts at studying nature: he was into Deva Apis: The ancient Italian Bee. Edward Kelly could not bear honey bees, but Iohn dee had found the secret of studying their habits - turning this way and that, sometimes rotating their little busy bee bodies - and thus dee being sweet old dee, he loved the little babes. dee ook great care for their well-being. dee even blessed the boards from which their dainty bee-house was builded.

      In short: edward kill honey bee.

      Sweet old dee, although mad at bad boy Kelley, lived to play with his bees and his looking Glass, and even to cast his funny spells, and of course to write lots of letters.

      I think I dee had a copy of Shakespeare's Tempest. From the letters I mentioned in another post, I spied a resemblance between prospero and I dee. did they not both use mirrors?

      Or am I getting mixed up with the name of prospero's daughter, Miranda?

      I dee had read The Tempest, particularly "dainty" 'Ariel's song', which begins:

      Where the
      bee
      sucks there suck
      I.

      What I dee saw in that silly verse, I have no Idea.

      What Edvvard Kelley saw in that Glass, is another mystery to me.


      What comments (if any) have you on my previous post written in olde Englyshe? I would like to know.

      As for your question: "have you any pictures for us?"

      I explained in a previous post of finding a trove of old letters concerning Iohn Dee and Edward Kelley, but it seems not to have made any impact whatever. If someone makes such a crazy statement, one might expect at least a challenge. Unless, of course, it is regarded in contempt, and unworthy of the effort. There's two ways to catch crabs: the wise way is to examine the whole pool.

      As for pictures reve:

      I have a copper-etched image of Dee's son, Arthur, when he was seven. It will be produced only after my other posts are examined, because everything kind of interlocks, so to speak.

      Please note: I did not write in 'old English' idiom without a very good reason. As I said: to understand Dee one must think like Dee. Without this maxim not one iota of the truth of Dee and Kelley etc., will ever be revealed.

      Regards

       If a line starts from a point,  is a line a long point       ?

      Tom C.

      ==============================================


      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, souttar john <johnsouttar@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi again
      >
      > i should have added why I think Kelley may well have wanted to murder Dee.
      > Partly because of the diary although i suspect that Dee kept that as part
      > of the operation knowing that it would be read. But Talbot (Shrewsbury) had
      > a temper just like Kelley, obvously. He was tried for poisoning the gloves
      > of his brother the Earl who had tried to exclude him from his father's vast
      > inheritance and eventually made sure that he did not inherit all the
      > Shrewsbury assets which he left to Alethia. The doctor helping Talbot with
      > this assassination plot had his ears cropped, which is why his aristocratic
      > friends joked that 'Kelley' had. Talbot was exonerated. Impossible of
      > course that in those days a plot to kill the premier earl in the country
      > would result in such pathetic punishment unless one had powerful friends
      > like Cecil and Burghley, and indeed the Queen who it is written adored the
      > young Talbot. As she may have been a gay man anyway that is not that
      > surprising either. Sir William Herbert who lived next door to Dee and whose
      > daughter 'married' Arthur as a child lost his two sons who found just such
      > a poison in his study disguised as candy and ate it. Intelligence stuff
      > like Kelley's invisible ink.
      >
      > Tom have you any pictures for us?
      >
      > reve
      > On 27 May 2012 19:48, souttar john johnsouttar@... wrote:
      >
      > > hello Tom
      > >
      > > How fascinating. No wonder you kept asking about the small boy! Comes as
      > > no surprise
      > >
      > > (1) you found this
      > > (2) Kelley wanted to kill Dee as it fits in with the way things went
      > > between them
      > > (3) the boys - Dee was a saucy chap as massaging his servant's breasts
      > > with oil and swapping wives shows.
      > >
      > > I had written to someone else today just minutes ago to recall a dream i
      > > had of Talbot one night, in his Tudor clothes, and how shocked i was as he
      > > suddenly kissed another young man. But Shakespeare did like his men, like
      > > Southampton. i suppose the boys fit into that 'family of love' world which
      > > is not a nice place. Most public schools in england and Universities and
      > > indeed monasteries would have condoned such behaviour between rthe masters
      > > and the boys. Especially in my father's day. Look at the Catholic schools
      > > now owning up to abuse.
      > >
      > > No I am not convinced there was any real magic as all here know. I have
      > > seen both the Aztec obsidian mirror and a smoky quartz ball several times
      > > in the BM and they are artifacts, not magical. It was an intelligence
      > > mission for Talbot's mentor Burghley in Europe and really quite obviously
      > > so. The English Intelligence Services also seem to have a strong if
      > > historical attraction between men and boys it seems.
      > >
      > > well done - do tell more but do not expect too many academics to accept a
      > > word of it. It is not something most will care to know.
      > >
      > > reve
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On 27 May 2012 12:50, theminde@... theminde@...wrote:
      > >
      > >> **

      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Hello.
      > >>
      > >> I take full note of what is said and I apologise for not making myself
      > >> clear. What I was asking is: do any members of this group believe John
      > >> Dee's glass and stone to really have magical properties?
      > >>
      > >> I had already checked through the archives over the past six months or
      > >> so, and reading between lines, I feel that some members think Dee really
      > >> could have possessed such objects. I fully appreciate Elizabeth's reaction
      > >> as we are given it, and I do understand the effect of distortions in
      > >> concave and convex mirrors, although such distortion is hardly likely in
      > >> the black volcanic stone.
      > >>
      > >> Please do not be offended. None was meant.
      > >>
      > >> As for my comment:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> "It is written that John Dee knew Edward Kelley planned to murder him."
      > >>
      > >> you replied:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> > Right-o. Many of us here have read a fair amount on John Dee and not
      > >> > encountered this. Perhaps you can share where this is written?
      > >>
      > >> You say "Many of us here have read a fair amount on John Dee "
      > >>
      > >> What amount on Edward Kelly?
      > >>
      > >> Both names were together most of the time, at least when it counted, and
      > >> I have confirmed that, right up to the moment when Edward Kelley parted
      > >> (for the last time) with Iohn Dee, Edward Kelley had in his possession some
      > >> letters which belonged to John Dee. One very telling letter was in
      > >> connection with that 'other' man, Talbot, and his 'relationship' with
      > >> Kelley.
      > >>
      > >> John Dee took his letters back but never destroyed them: he hid them.
      > >>
      > >> How do I know this? Remember that stuff abou the bakers who found the
      > >> rosary beads hidden in a secret compartment in a chest? Remember that
      > >> business about Dee burying books and stuff in the grounds of Mortlake? Who
      > >> purchased that land? What did he find? If what he found was never
      > >> discovered, how much would we now know about Dee?
      > >>
      > >> If John Dee hid more stuff, in another, more subtle place, how much more
      > >> might it reveal about Dee?
      > >>
      > >> I have it on very good authority that there was a lot more stuff buried
      > >> by Dee. I am reliably informed that John Dee hid some very very powerful
      > >> knowledge.
      > >>
      > >> Of course the big question is where?
      > >>
      > >> If John Dee never hid anything in that place, then what I have stumbled
      > >> across (with his very name written in English, Latin and Greek) then
      > >> someone somewhere is a genius at forgery.
      > >>
      > >> Who was it that said Dee's great library was stolen?
      > >>
      > >> Remember that castle business Dee spoke of?
      > >>
      > >> Why have I not published any of this before? I suppose one could call me
      > >> a prude. I have it on the best possible authority ( a letter no less) that
      > >> the so devout John Dee was involved with - how shall I say - two small
      > >> boys. Something John Dee kept well and truly hid.
      > >>
      > >> What was all that business about Welsh ancestory and stuff? What was Dee
      > >> really up to with Dudley and Elizabeth? Those two wanted to bury a great
      > >> secret and John Dee knew the perfect place to hide one.
      > >>
      > >> What's buried? A small book and a few parcels of letters. Strangely, the
      > >> first has printed in capitals: AMEN.
      > >>
      > >> How come they have not rotted? They were all well wrapped in layers of
      > >> paper which I believe was soaked in some kind of mineral oil. The whole
      > >> then being wrapped within a thin sheet of lead. Finally. someone had taken
      > >> two lumps of slate and carved out matching rectagular cavities, then placed
      > >> the lead casket so it stood vertically against the wall. The slate casket
      > >> was already broken open, no doubt due to the surrounding stresses in the
      > >> rock face. At first sight I thought it was part of an old Roman water pipe
      > >> or something.
      > >>
      > >> Where exactly were they found? In an ancient slate quarry in North wales.
      > >> A castle being close by.
      > >>
      > >> I am no writer. If it were not for spell checkers I would be lost. But I
      > >> have for many years tried to explain what I've found in a kind of round
      > >> about way, but have always found it difficult getting the point across.
      > >> Readers want slobbering aliens killing cartoon zombies.
      > >>
      > >> Again: no offence meant to any member of this group, and sorry
      > >> for any misunderstanding.
      > >>
      > >> regards Tom C
      > >>
      > >> ============================================================
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com,
      > >> "solsticewooddragon" tmichelle57@ wrote:
      > >> >
      > >> > Re: First question below
      > >> >
      > >> > Maybe its easier to just check the archive? We're glad
      > >> > you've joined, and don't have a set of list rules we send
      > >> > out, but its generally considered poor form to appear on
      > >> > a group and ask a question about which much may have been said
      > >> > without looking at the archives first. Rather than saying
      > >> > "Please tell me it's not so," perhaps you should consider
      > >> > looking for yourself first.
      > >> >
      > >> > The whole recent discussion line "Dr. Dee's mirror and Tezcatlipoca"
      > >> > concerned this subject, as do over 200 other posts over the past
      > >> > many years.
      > >> >
      > >> > Here is the mirror that the British Museum has in their collection
      > >> > and attributes to Dee:
      > >> >
      > >> http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_mla/d/dr_de\
      > >> <http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_mla/d/dr_de>>
      > >> es_mirror.aspx
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> > Re: your P.S.
      > >> >
      > >> > "It is written that John Dee knew Edward Kelley planned to murder him."
      > >> >
      > >> > Right-o. Many of us here have read a fair amount on John Dee and not
      > >> > encountered this. Perhaps you can share where this is written?
      > >> >
      > >> > Thanks.
      > >> >
      > >> > Terry
      > >> >
      > >> > My P.S.: the first version of this message disappeared, so I've
      > >> > resent it. If any of you get two copies, I apologize.
      > >> >
      > >> > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "theminde@"
      > >> <theminde@> wrote:
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Hello group
      > >> > >
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Does this group really believe Dee had a magic mirror? Is it possible
      > >> that members seriously believe in the reality of the Dee/Kelley
      > >> Philopsopher's stone?
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Please tell me it's not so.
      > >> > >
      > >> > >
      > >> > > P.S:
      > >> > >
      > >> > > It is written that John Dee knew Edward Kelley planned to murder him.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Tom C
      > >> > >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      >



    • theminde@btinternet.com
      Hello again Reve. No I am not you. Neither are you me. Whoever posted you can be assured on that point. As for my trying to bust the forum. No again. Please
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2012
        Hello again Reve.

        No I am not you. Neither are you me.

        Whoever posted you can be assured on that point.

        As for my trying to bust the forum. No again. Please believe me.

        Now as for all that you said re Talbot-Kelly: As I said, I think Kelly and Talbot are one and the same.

        I attempted to get someone in this group to use their eyes and senses.

        EDWARD KELLEY is an anagram of DRAW DEE KEY +

        I don't know if anyone recognises what L L meant in Dee's Monad,
        but I had better explain it:

        The crucial link in his beloved symbol looks like a + symbol.

        Dee formed it by joining two L-shaped symbols, one L and one inverted like a Greek Gamma. Although he says they are Vees, in practice they are identical to Greek Lambdas, thus L L.

        The point I am trying to get to is that Edward Kelley was either a name Dee used for his purposes, or he manufactured it. Either way no such person called Edward Dee, or Talbot or any other person ever 'skryed' in the way Dee relates: the whole this is one huge Trojan horse to carry a far deeper philosophy. He faked it all with the willing assistance of Elizabeth Tudor and others. The stuff we are left to read is written in a subtle kind od double talk.

        Dee effectively wrote his diaries like a long play, but without a stage. It was he who took the parts of the various characters. Try doing the stuff in his diaries: making careful notes of what Kelly is supposed to be reading, translating it all into order, talking to inc=visible spirits and angels whilst making these notes. Kelly kicking off because he cannot uinderstand Greek or Persian (if he was unable to comprehend the words, how the hell could he repeat them for Dee's benefit?)

        I think I have got to the bottom of what Dee and her royal highness were really doing, but it's a hard task explaining to those, like Kelly, hear but cannot understand.

        As for that image: I said I would produce it when the post I had sent was examined.

        Tom C

        ===========================


        --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, souttar john <johnsouttar@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Tom
        >
        > I would not be posting further on this matter but someone I respect on this
        > forum has asked me whether I am you. That set off alarm bells and i
        > wondered if you were actually trying to get the forum closed down, and its
        > invaluable archive removed, rather than share your knowledge as so many
        > others here have done in the past.
        >
        > i do hope that is not so
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > reve
        >
        > On 30 May 2012 10:27, souttar john <johnsouttar@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Hi Tom
        > >
        > > I am bemused. I do not want to upset anyone here but will give a brief
        > > resume. edward talbot and his brother were sent to Court by their father
        > > and a letter shows that E1 liked him very much. While there this dashing
        > > aristocratic youth with no chance of inheriting the Shewsbury title woul;d
        > > have met the young Jane 'Dee' who was also at court and indeed if I remeber
        > > the diary right went back to court before she conceived Arthur who may be
        > > Talbot's first son. The fact that he 'married' young Mart Herbert, his
        > > distant cousain is significant. When Talbot was introduced to Dee jane
        > > would cedrftainly have known him and he was introduced as Edward Talbot.
        > > that crystal ball 'taken' by the angels turned up under Jane's pillow and
        > > the diary dates suggest that talbot could have been the father of a few of
        > > her children. Her rage when he left says a lot and her pretence not to like
        > > this man. dee writing in the diary the dates when he had sex suggests to me
        > > his suspicions about the two. But Talbot actually married Jane Ogle the
        > > year that Kelley married his 'Jane'. the Ogles were from Northumberland,
        > > with its connection to Talbot and he got a vast dowry from lord Ogle. the
        > > marriage was arranged by Walsingham anyway and Jane may well have gone to
        > > Europe with them. The Talbots had a fleet and Kelley was clearly an able
        > > seaman as he bailed the boat with his glove. Talbot went to Magdeln College
        > > Oxford with whom I have corresponded. kelley says he went to Oxford but
        > > there is no record. Talbot and his brother were schooled by Lord Burghley
        > > who had 24 yound aristocrats including Essex and Oxford and indeed Cecil
        > > schooled in his London house while attending court. Raleigh was frequent
        > > visitor and the young Cecil writes a star struck letter to him asking him
        > > to come back from Cornwall. Cecil, Walsingham and Burghley ran the
        > > Intelligence Service and the first Blanche Parry also in Court was the
        > > cousing of Lord B, his son Cecil and also John Dee.
        > >
        > > There is in fact so much evidence that suggests that kelley was Talbot
        > > apart from the duiary that it beggars belief that no one will accept this.
        > > The problem is that if true Kelley could not have dioed in Europe where
        > > there is no body, as he atook on the Shewsbury title when his brother the
        > > Earl eventually died, one week after Shakespeare supposedly died. The
        > > talbots owned a lot of property near the Mermaid pub and the Golobe, had
        > > their own troupe of players, masses of money and Shakespeare is said to
        > > have iunsisted on playing the regal parts. i could go on - it fills a book
        > > I wrote but have not published.
        > >
        > > Now a photo of the slate encased, lead lined documents is all I am asking.
        > > But the picture of the boy under a bridge would be fascinating. I can take
        > > you seriously but please don not wind the Forum up - we may not all agree
        > > but there are nice and serious people here, if any are left since I drove
        > > so many away, and we all do our best. New evidence would be most welcome
        > > here I assure you.
        > >
        > > all the best
        > >
        > > reve
        > >
        > > reve x
        > > On 30 May 2012 06:52, theminde@... <theminde@...>wrote:
        > >
        > >> **
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Greetings as ever to reve.
        > >>
        > >> I read your theory with great interest. What's your take on the
        > >> Talbot-Kelley identity thing?
        > >> Why do you say Talbot was Shrewsbury? Not Kelley?
        > >>
        > >> My post referred to Edward Kelley killing Iohn Dee. Your ideas sound
        > >> excellent to me, but I wondered if you might agree with me in my reading
        > >> John Dee as a sweet, if naive, old man?
        > >>
        > >> Might you might also agree that Dee was somewhat stung by Kelley's
        > >> behaviour?
        > >>
        > >> I am trying to get over something quite profound but at the same time
        > >> witty, concerning the two central characters Iohn Dee and Edward Kelly.
        > >> (Notice by the way how Dee spells Kelley with either one or two E's?)
        > >>
        > >> Why did Kelly want to kill Dee? It was basically to do with dee's
        > >> attempts at studying nature: he was into Deva Apis: The ancient Italian
        > >> Bee. Edward Kelly could not bear honey bees, but Iohn dee had found the
        > >> secret of studying their habits - turning this way and that, sometimes
        > >> rotating their little busy bee bodies - and thus dee being sweet old dee,
        > >> he loved the little babes. dee ook great care for their well-being. dee
        > >> even blessed the boards from which their dainty bee-house was builded.
        > >>
        > >> In short: edward kill honey bee.
        > >>
        > >> Sweet old dee, although mad at bad boy Kelley, lived to play with his
        > >> bees and his looking Glass, and even to cast his funny spells, and of
        > >> course to write lots of letters.
        > >>
        > >> I think I dee had a copy of Shakespeare's Tempest. From the letters I
        > >> mentioned in another post, I spied a resemblance between prospero and I
        > >> dee. did they not both use mirrors?
        > >>
        > >> Or am I getting mixed up with the name of prospero's daughter, Miranda?
        > >>
        > >> I dee had read The Tempest, particularly "dainty" 'Ariel's song', which
        > >> begins:
        > >>
        > >> Where the
        > >> bee
        > >> sucks there suck
        > >> I.
        > >>
        > >> What I dee saw in that silly verse, I have no Idea.
        > >>
        > >> What Edvvard Kelley saw in that Glass, is another mystery to me.
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> What comments (if any) have you on my previous post written in olde
        > >> Englyshe? I would like to know.
        > >>
        > >> As for your question: "have you any pictures for us?"
        > >>
        > >> I explained in a previous post of finding a trove of old letters
        > >> concerning Iohn Dee and Edward Kelley, but it seems not to have made any
        > >> impact whatever. If someone makes such a crazy statement, one might expect
        > >> at least a challenge. Unless, of course, it is regarded in contempt, and
        > >> unworthy of the effort. There's two ways to catch crabs: the wise way is to
        > >> examine the whole pool.
        > >>
        > >> As for pictures reve:
        > >>
        > >> I have a copper-etched image of Dee's son, Arthur, when he was seven. It
        > >> will be produced only after my other posts are examined, because everything
        > >> kind of interlocks, so to speak.
        > >>
        > >> Please note: I did not write in 'old English' idiom without a very good
        > >> reason. As I said: to understand Dee one must think like Dee. Without this
        > >> maxim not one iota of the truth of Dee and Kelley etc., will ever be
        > >> revealed.
        > >>
        > >> Regards
        > >>
        > >> * If a line starts from a point, is a line a long point ?*
        > >>
        > >> Tom C.
        > >>
        > >> ==============================================
        > >>
        > >> --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, souttar john
        > >> <johnsouttar@> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> > Hi again
        > >> >
        > >> > i should have added why I think Kelley may well have wanted to murder
        > >> Dee.
        > >> > Partly because of the diary although i suspect that Dee kept that as
        > >> part
        > >> > of the operation knowing that it would be read. But Talbot (Shrewsbury)
        > >> had
        > >> > a temper just like Kelley, obvously. He was tried for poisoning the
        > >> gloves
        > >> > of his brother the Earl who had tried to exclude him from his father's
        > >> vast
        > >> > inheritance and eventually made sure that he did not inherit all the
        > >> > Shrewsbury assets which he left to Alethia. The doctor helping Talbot
        > >> with
        > >> > this assassination plot had his ears cropped, which is why his
        > >> aristocratic
        > >> > friends joked that 'Kelley' had. Talbot was exonerated. Impossible of
        > >> > course that in those days a plot to kill the premier earl in the country
        > >> > would result in such pathetic punishment unless one had powerful friends
        > >> > like Cecil and Burghley, and indeed the Queen who it is written adored
        > >> the
        > >> > young Talbot. As she may have been a gay man anyway that is not that
        > >> > surprising either. Sir William Herbert who lived next door to Dee and
        > >> whose
        > >> > daughter 'married' Arthur as a child lost his two sons who found just
        > >> such
        > >> > a poison in his study disguised as candy and ate it. Intelligence stuff
        > >> > like Kelley's invisible ink.
        > >> >
        > >> > Tom have you any pictures for us?
        > >> >
        > >> > reve
        > >> > On 27 May 2012 19:48, souttar john johnsouttar@ wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> > > hello Tom
        > >> > >
        > >> > > How fascinating. No wonder you kept asking about the small boy! Comes
        > >> as
        > >> > > no surprise
        > >> > >
        > >> > > (1) you found this
        > >> > > (2) Kelley wanted to kill Dee as it fits in with the way things went
        > >> > > between them
        > >> > > (3) the boys - Dee was a saucy chap as massaging his servant's breasts
        > >> > > with oil and swapping wives shows.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > I had written to someone else today just minutes ago to recall a
        > >> dream i
        > >> > > had of Talbot one night, in his Tudor clothes, and how shocked i was
        > >> as he
        > >> > > suddenly kissed another young man. But Shakespeare did like his men,
        > >> like
        > >> > > Southampton. i suppose the boys fit into that 'family of love' world
        > >> which
        > >> > > is not a nice place. Most public schools in england and Universities
        > >> and
        > >> > > indeed monasteries would have condoned such behaviour between rthe
        > >> masters
        > >> > > and the boys. Especially in my father's day. Look at the Catholic
        > >> schools
        > >> > > now owning up to abuse.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > No I am not convinced there was any real magic as all here know. I
        > >> have
        > >> > > seen both the Aztec obsidian mirror and a smoky quartz ball several
        > >> times
        > >> > > in the BM and they are artifacts, not magical. It was an intelligence
        > >> > > mission for Talbot's mentor Burghley in Europe and really quite
        > >> obviously
        > >> > > so. The English Intelligence Services also seem to have a strong if
        > >> > > historical attraction between men and boys it seems.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > well done - do tell more but do not expect too many academics to
        > >> accept a
        > >> > > word of it. It is not something most will care to know.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > reve
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > On 27 May 2012 12:50, theminde@ theminde@...:
        > >> > >
        > >> > >> **
        > >>
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Hello.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> I take full note of what is said and I apologise for not making
        > >> myself
        > >> > >> clear. What I was asking is: do any members of this group believe
        > >> John
        > >> > >> Dee's glass and stone to really have magical properties?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> I had already checked through the archives over the past six months
        > >> or
        > >> > >> so, and reading between lines, I feel that some members think Dee
        > >> really
        > >> > >> could have possessed such objects. I fully appreciate Elizabeth's
        > >> reaction
        > >> > >> as we are given it, and I do understand the effect of distortions in
        > >> > >> concave and convex mirrors, although such distortion is hardly
        > >> likely in
        > >> > >> the black volcanic stone.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Please do not be offended. None was meant.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> As for my comment:
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> "It is written that John Dee knew Edward Kelley planned to murder
        > >> him."
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> you replied:
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> > Right-o. Many of us here have read a fair amount on John Dee and
        > >> not
        > >> > >> > encountered this. Perhaps you can share where this is written?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> You say "Many of us here have read a fair amount on John Dee "
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> What amount on Edward Kelly?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Both names were together most of the time, at least when it counted,
        > >> and
        > >> > >> I have confirmed that, right up to the moment when Edward Kelley
        > >> parted
        > >> > >> (for the last time) with Iohn Dee, Edward Kelley had in his
        > >> possession some
        > >> > >> letters which belonged to John Dee. One very telling letter was in
        > >> > >> connection with that 'other' man, Talbot, and his 'relationship' with
        > >> > >> Kelley.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> John Dee took his letters back but never destroyed them: he hid them.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> How do I know this? Remember that stuff abou the bakers who found the
        > >> > >> rosary beads hidden in a secret compartment in a chest? Remember that
        > >> > >> business about Dee burying books and stuff in the grounds of
        > >> Mortlake? Who
        > >> > >> purchased that land? What did he find? If what he found was never
        > >> > >> discovered, how much would we now know about Dee?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> If John Dee hid more stuff, in another, more subtle place, how much
        > >> more
        > >> > >> might it reveal about Dee?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> I have it on very good authority that there was a lot more stuff
        > >> buried
        > >> > >> by Dee. I am reliably informed that John Dee hid some very very
        > >> powerful
        > >> > >> knowledge.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Of course the big question is where?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> If John Dee never hid anything in that place, then what I have
        > >> stumbled
        > >> > >> across (with his very name written in English, Latin and Greek) then
        > >> > >> someone somewhere is a genius at forgery.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Who was it that said Dee's great library was stolen?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Remember that castle business Dee spoke of?
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Why have I not published any of this before? I suppose one could
        > >> call me
        > >> > >> a prude. I have it on the best possible authority ( a letter no
        > >> less) that
        > >> > >> the so devout John Dee was involved with - how shall I say - two
        > >> small
        > >> > >> boys. Something John Dee kept well and truly hid.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> What was all that business about Welsh ancestory and stuff? What was
        > >> Dee
        > >> > >> really up to with Dudley and Elizabeth? Those two wanted to bury a
        > >> great
        > >> > >> secret and John Dee knew the perfect place to hide one.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> What's buried? A small book and a few parcels of letters. Strangely,
        > >> the
        > >> > >> first has printed in capitals: AMEN.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> How come they have not rotted? They were all well wrapped in layers
        > >> of
        > >> > >> paper which I believe was soaked in some kind of mineral oil. The
        > >> whole
        > >> > >> then being wrapped within a thin sheet of lead. Finally. someone had
        > >> taken
        > >> > >> two lumps of slate and carved out matching rectagular cavities, then
        > >> placed
        > >> > >> the lead casket so it stood vertically against the wall. The slate
        > >> casket
        > >> > >> was already broken open, no doubt due to the surrounding stresses in
        > >> the
        > >> > >> rock face. At first sight I thought it was part of an old Roman
        > >> water pipe
        > >> > >> or something.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Where exactly were they found? In an ancient slate quarry in North
        > >> wales.
        > >> > >> A castle being close by.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> I am no writer. If it were not for spell checkers I would be lost.
        > >> But I
        > >> > >> have for many years tried to explain what I've found in a kind of
        > >> round
        > >> > >> about way, but have always found it difficult getting the point
        > >> across.
        > >> > >> Readers want slobbering aliens killing cartoon zombies.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> Again: no offence meant to any member of this group, and sorry
        > >> > >> for any misunderstanding.
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> regards Tom C
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> ============================================================
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >> --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com,
        > >> > >> "solsticewooddragon" tmichelle57@ wrote:
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > Re: First question below
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > Maybe its easier to just check the archive? We're glad
        > >> > >> > you've joined, and don't have a set of list rules we send
        > >> > >> > out, but its generally considered poor form to appear on
        > >> > >> > a group and ask a question about which much may have been said
        > >> > >> > without looking at the archives first. Rather than saying
        > >> > >> > "Please tell me it's not so," perhaps you should consider
        > >> > >> > looking for yourself first.
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > The whole recent discussion line "Dr. Dee's mirror and
        > >> Tezcatlipoca"
        > >> > >> > concerned this subject, as do over 200 other posts over the past
        > >> > >> > many years.
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > Here is the mirror that the British Museum has in their collection
        > >> > >> > and attributes to Dee:
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >>
        > >> http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_mla/d/dr_de\
        > >> > >> <
        > >> http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_mla/d/dr_de
        > >> >>
        > >> > >> es_mirror.aspx
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > Re: your P.S.
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > "It is written that John Dee knew Edward Kelley planned to murder
        > >> him."
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > Right-o. Many of us here have read a fair amount on John Dee and
        > >> not
        > >> > >> > encountered this. Perhaps you can share where this is written?
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > Thanks.
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > Terry
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > My P.S.: the first version of this message disappeared, so I've
        > >> > >> > resent it. If any of you get two copies, I apologize.
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >> > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "theminde@"
        > >> > >> <theminde@> wrote:
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > > Hello group
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > > Does this group really believe Dee had a magic mirror? Is it
        > >> possible
        > >> > >> that members seriously believe in the reality of the Dee/Kelley
        > >> > >> Philopsopher's stone?
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > > Please tell me it's not so.
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > > P.S:
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > > It is written that John Dee knew Edward Kelley planned to murder
        > >> him.
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> > > Tom C
        > >> > >> > >
        > >> > >> >
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >>
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        >
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