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Re: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Shakespeare's Green Garland on-line articles complete

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  • johnsouttar@blueyonder.co.uk
    Hi all - I still get your e-mails so I hope you will not mind me putting this before you as I would be most interested in your comments - quite a lot of this
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 3 12:01 PM
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      Hi all - I still get your e-mails so I hope you will not mind me putting
      this before you as I would be most interested in your comments - quite a
      lot of this has been discussed or touched on by the group here. You are
      the experts and it seems quite relevant at present particularly the black
      god/king (about a quarter way down). It may be a bit of a trawl but it
      does explain much about our Dr Dee (Ddu):

      So let us look at the clues. Shakespeare, Tudor Architecture, Poetry,
      Theatre, Magicians like John Dee, a Black God, Wool. Who lives in a house
      like this?

      The Welsh Bards give an early clue. If Welsh poetry does not appeal one
      can skim down to Black god but much of interest is written between the
      lines. The sixth century legend of Taliesin starts off the Arthurian saga
      around which courtly life was often based, and Merlin like Welsh magicians
      tolerated:

      8 Taliesin, or The Critic Criticised.

      ii. (M)unc dutigirn — (in his time flourished Tal., etc.)

      iii. (M)ailcun King of Gwyneò etc.

      iv. (A)dda the son of Ida etc.
      It is the second entry which concerns us. The Editors of
      this paragraph have all printed (T)unc Dutigirn, under-
      standing " Then Dutigirn, at that time ", and so making
      this singularly named hero a contemporary of Ida of
      Northumbria. And " there you are " with proof positive
      that Taliesin and his fellow bards (named in paragraph ii.)
      lived in the sixth century ! Prima facie the case looks
      conclusive. But things are not always what they seem.
      Note that the other three paragraphs begin with a proper
      name, followed by words which fix their identity. If
      Dutigirn is a proper name, nothing follows to tell us who
      he was. If on the other hand we read " (M)unc, du tigirn "
      {niger rex) it is the epithet of a B]ack King we know,
      and the entry is on all fours with the other three. Who
      then was " Munc, the Black King"? He was Magnus'
      King of the Black Gentiles — the " gentiles nigri " of the
      Annales Cambrie, and the cenheèloeè duon of Brut y
      Tywysogion. The Norse icore hlach mail, just as Edward,
      the Black Prince did, hence the epithet " black " in both

      Dee mentions a Magnus. Is he perhaps recreating these characters around
      himself, or part of an ancient magic circle perhaps? I am interested in
      this black king. The ‘liber niger’ or black book is the list of the
      Knights of the Garter compiled in Henry V111’s reign. There is also a
      contemporaneous Black Book of Venus.

      Next we can find the famous Ddu (Black) family immortalised. Harri Ddu,
      Sir Harry Ddu etc. Sir Harry Ddu was a Crusader and Knight of the Grand
      Cross. His name was followed by the epithet (Niger) as was Sir Eliadyr Ddu
      (Niger) Knight of St John of Jeusalem. They were Welsh and wore black
      armour, but some say the black refers to the fact that they had raven
      coloured hair like many Welsh people. Others see an African origin. The
      coasts of Wales were constantly pillaged by the black Norse – slavers from
      North Africa. One must bear in mind that ‘Harry’ is the nickname of many
      of the monarchs named Henry. We still have a Prince Harry. Here is some
      curious 15th century Welsh poetry on the enigma:


      Lled-Ddychan A Semi-Satire
      I Harri Gruffudd o Euas to Harri Gruffudd of Euas [4]
      Y du hydr o’r Deheudir, The brave, black (haired man) from the Deheudir
      (south),
      Da ei lun mewn du o lir. Fine is his appearance in black-a-lyre (liripipe
      / headdress?).
      Llew du fal dy ddillad wyd, You are a black lion, (black) like your clothes,
      Lliw nid 麝 llai no dulwyd. (Your) colour will not turn less than
      grey-black.
      Harri Gruffudd, grudd y gras, Harri Gruffudd, (he of) graceful appearance,
      Hydd a llywydd holl Euas. The stag and lord of all Euas.
      Ysgw・r, dan goler gwiw, (He is) the most exalted squire (under a
      fitting collar),
      Ucha’sydd i’ch oes heddiw. You will ever find in this age today.
      Dy fonedd di a fynnai Your (noble) descent would have it
      Dy roi’n aur gyda’th dri nai. That you were given as gold with your three
      nephews.
      Nid anos yt, myn Dwynwen, By Dwynwen, it would not be more difficult for
      you to bear
      Dwyn aur nog ysbardun wen. a gold spur than a silver one.
      Enaid Euas, i diwael, You are the life of Euas and Gwent,
      excellent lord,
      A Gwent wyd, a fu gynt hael, (You), who were once generous,
      Ac weithian yn gywaethog And are now rich,
      Yn troi megis daint yr og. Have become hard like the teeth of a harrow.
      Ys da ŵr wyd, nid oes drai (Although) it is true that you are a good
      man - your supply of
      wine
      Am win, ond na cheir mwnai. Never falters – money is never given (from
      your hand).
      Mi a gawn yma gennyd I would be (freely) given here by you
      Y llyn rhudd megis llanw rhyd. The red drink like the flow at a ford,
      Ni chawn o’ch arian ychwaith, (Yet) I would not be given (a penny) from
      your purse either,
      Na dim wrth fyned ymaith. Nor anything (else) when I departed.
      Herod gynt, Harri, od gwn, I was once your herald, Harri, verily,
      A chywyddol iwch oeddwn. And your poet.
      Mwy nid hawdd, er amnaid teg, (Yet) now it is not (an easy task) (although
      a seemly beck),
      Moli gŵr mal y garreg. To give praise to a (miserly) man who is like
      to a stone.
      Cloi dy dda, caledu ‘dd wyd, (You) lock your goods; you are becoming a
      hard (man),
      Caledach no’r clo ydwyd. You are harder than a lock.
      Diemwnd ar wydr wyd yma, You are a diamond on glass here,
      Dur ar y dur i roi da. Steel upon steel in giving of goods.
      Mae esgus, ystrywus drwg, You have an excuse (a) (crafty scheme),
      Gennyd i wŷr Morgannwg, For the men of Morgannwg - (Glamorgan)
      Bod yt (ni wn na bai dau) That you possess (how do I know that you have
      not twice the number?)
      Ddwsin o brydyddesau, A dozen poetesses,
      Ac ar fedr, digrif ydwyd, And (then) with skill, amusing as you are,
      Harri, eu gwaddoli ‘dd wyd. Harri, you endow them.
      Medd Gwladus, drwsiadus sud, Gwladus says, (in her) fashionable manner,
      Haul Lyn Nedd, hael iawn oeddud. (She) the sun of Glyn Nedd, that you were
      very generous.
      Medd y gl靡 a omeddwyd, The gl靡 (bards), who were refused,
      Mab y crinwas Euas wyd. Say that you are the miser of Euas.
      Eich gwledd a roddwch i gl靡, You give your feast to the gl靡,
      A’ch rwmnai, a chau’r amner; And your Spanish wine, and (then) close the
      purse;
      A’ch clared 稱 i’ch clerwyr, And your claret goes to your clerwyr
      (bards),
      8
      A’ch medd, a gomedd y gwŷr. And your mead, (but then you) refuse the
      said men.
      Gofyn a wnei gefn y nos You ask late at night
      Gan cywydd gan gainc eos. For a hundred cywyddau to the tune of the
      nightingale.
      Galw cerdd Ddafydd ap Gwilym Calling for Dafydd ap Gwilym’s poem,
      A bwrdio ynn heb roi dym. And (then) mocking us (by) giving us nothing (in
      return).
      Harri, os o ddifri ‘dd wyd Harri, if you (remain) in earnest
      Heb roddi, hwya’ breuddwyd; Without giving, (I’m afraid that) you (remain)
      in (our) longest dream;
      Os cellwair, hwyr y cair ced, If (you) mock (a long time will pass before
      a gift is given),
      Oera’ cellwair yw colled. The worst (type of) mockery is loss.
      Dywaid ti, pam nad wyt da? (Prey), tell (me now), why are you not well?
      Dy ddewrdad ydoedd wrda. Your brave father was a noble man,
      A da fu Fawd, di-fai ferch, And (so was) Maud, faultless girl,
      A wnaeth roddion, nith Rydderch. Who gave gifts, a niece to Rhydderch.
      Gweithydd f璟 ar gywydd gŵr, I was a craftsman of the praise poem,
      Ac weithian brawd bregethwr. And (I am) now a preaching friar.
      Y sawl a glywo fy s, Whoever shall hear these words,
      Ef a rydd fwy o roddion. Shall himself become a more copious giver of gifts.
      Br穗 Galed brin y gelwynt The nobility of the Men of the North of old
      Bonedd Gwŷr y Gogledd gynt; Used to call Brân Galed a miser;
      Taliesin, ddewin ddiwael, (Yet) Taliesin, (the) excellent magician,
      A’i troes yn well no’r tri hael. Made him more generous than the Tri Hael.
      Un fodd ・hwnnw fyddaf, I will be in the same mould as he -
      Troi’n well dy natur a wnaf. I will improve your temperament.
      O throi gyda’r bregeth rwydd, If (you) improve with this eloquent sermon,
      Cei fawrglod acw, f’arglwydd. You will receive great praise yonder, my lord.
      Oni throi, neu’th ddirywiwyd, If you do not improve, or worsen,
      Collaist a roist, callestr wyd. You will have lost (all) that which you
      gave - you are a flintstone.


      LXXXIII 97
      Marwnad Harri Ddu o Euas The Death of Harri Ddu of Ewyas
      Doe darfu’r Deau derfyn, Yesterday the South’s frontier died,
      Dwrn Duw a roes dyrnod ynn. God’s fist gave us a blow.
      Daearen Duw a oeres, God’s earth turned cold,
      Dwyn gŵr oll a dynn ei gwres. taking a man completely drains away its
      warmth.
      Dyrnod hoedl drwy Went ydoedd, A mortal blow was it throughout Gwent,
      Dwyn Harri Ddu (dyn hardd oedd). taking Harri Ddu, he was a handsome man.
      Dyffryn Aur yn deffroi nos, The Golden Vale rouses night,
      Heb liw dydd, heb le diddos. without day’s colour, without a shelter.
      Euas gynt wrth lais ei gorn Euas (Ewyas Lacy) once had the sound of his horn;
      Ac Erging heb gyweirgorn. and Erging (Archenfield) is without a tuning-key.
      Saethwyd yma’r saith dinas, The seven cities were shot down here,
      Swydd Henffordd, Cliffordd a’r Clas. Herefordshire, Clifford and Glasbury.
      Beth a d稷 byth, o delir, What is a war-sloop worth, if it’s held,
      Belinger heb longwr hir? without a tall shipman?
      Bro Wy oedd hon, briwodd hi, This was the Vale of the Wye, it was wounded,
      Byd perygl bod heb Harri. a world of danger is it without Harri.
      Wylo mae llin Wiliam Llwyd, William Llwyd’s line is weeping, [i]
      9
      Aml dolef am lew dulwyd. a repeated cry for a dark lion.
      Nid wyf syth na da fy s稷 I’m not erect nor well-paid
      Wedi ef, na diofal. after him, nor carefree.
      Fy nghariad, fy nghynghorwr, My love, my counsellor,
      Fy llyfr gynt, fy llaw fu’r gŵr. my book before, the man was my hand.
      Dug fi at y Dug of Iorc He brought me to the duke of York
      Dan amod cael deunawmorc. on the condition of getting eighteen marks. [ii]
      Fy ngwaith fu, eilwaith foliant, My work was (more praise)
      Fwrw gwawd hwn i frig y tant. to cast praise of him to the top of the string.
      Dengair o gellwair i gyd Ten words all joking [iii]
      Fu rhof a Harri hefyd. were also between me and Harri.
      O dywedais, da ydoedd, If I said (he was good)
      Na r ei aur, anwir oedd; that he didn’t give his gold, it wasn’t
      true.
      Ni r gawn er a genynt He wouldn’t give straw for what the
      minstrels of shit
      Gl靡 y dom, bwngleriaid ŷnt; would sing, they’re bunglers.
      Ac i’r gwŷr gorau eu gwaith But to men of the best work
      Ar unrhodd y rh anrhaith. by a single gift he gave wealth.
      Rhydd fu’r Cwrtnewydd i ni, Liberal was Newcourt for us,
      A’r Drehir, dra fu Harri. and Longtown, while Harri lived.
      Gŵr oedd ef fal Gwrthefyr, He was a man like Gwrthefyr, [iv]
      Gọrau ’稱 law i Gaerlŷr. the best with his hand as far as
      Leicester.
      Gwayw ‘mrwydr i Gymru ydoedd, He was a sword in battle for Wales,
      Gard aur ysgw・riaid oedd. he was the golden guard of the squires.
      Cwrtiwr oedd y milwr main, A courtier was the lean soldier,
      Cryfaf o Iorc i Rufain. the strongest from York to Rome.
      Ni thrwsiodd maen na throsol, No one ever trimmed stone or sceptre,
      Ni bu neb na bai’n ei . there was none who wouldn’t be behind him.
      Saeth fawr a saethai f’eryr, A great arrow would my eagle shoot,
      Saethu ‘mlaen seithmil o wŷr. shooting before seven thousand men.
      Nid 稱 i’w naid un dyn iach, Not one healthy man would match his leap,
      Nid oedd ieithydd du ddoethach. there wasn’t a black linguist wiser.
      Ni roes Iesu rasusoed Jesus of gracious life never put
      Un lliw ar ŵr well erioed. a better colour on a man before.
      Harri Gruffudd a guddiwyd, Harri Gruffudd was buried,
      Heno, Dduw, dwyn hwn ydd wyd. tonight, God, you’re taking him.
      Heddiw ydd aeth o’i haddef Today the stag of Newcourt went from his home
      Hydd y Cwrtnewydd i nef. to heaven.
      Dwyn o’r coed a wn稱 ŵr call A wise man would take an oak from
      the wood
      Derwen a dodi arall. and put another in place.
      Mae un o’i wŷdd yma i ni, There is one from his wood here for us,
      Mal yw pur, Mil ap Harri. he too is pure, Miles ap Harri,
      Impyn cadr a’m pen-ceidwad, a bold scion and my chief keeper.
      Impied ef gampau ei dad. Let him engraft his father’s deeds.
      Gwŷdd ieuanc a wedd・n, I’d pray for young wood,
      Gadu hil yn goed i hwn. That progeny would be left as his wood!

      The Ddu’s were ancestors of Blanche Parry, Elizabeth’s lady in waiting, or
      lady of the bedchamber perhaps. Elizabeth I had Welsh connections on both
      sides – her father through Henry Tudor and her mother the Countess of
      Pembroke.

      Guto’r Glyn
      (flourishing 1430s-1493) Guto’r Glyn [1] wrote at least 124 poems, of
      which the 5 dedicated to one of his patrons, Harri Ddu, Blanche’s
      great-grandfather, are given below. He was a highly regarded itinerant
      bard between the 1430s and 1493 who regularly visited a circuit of the
      houses of the nobility, including Newcourt. He was also well received by
      several members of the clergy, including two Deans of Bangor and the Abbot
      of Shrewsbury. He was noted for being able to praise his patrons, for his
      descriptions, for his satire and for his humorous asides which are well
      illustrated in this selection. He
      followed the precepts laid down by Taliesin in praising his patron’s
      ability in warfare and largesse at home. The elegy on the death of Harri
      Ddu is a superb example of his skill in this poetic form. Guto’r Glyn’s
      home was in Glyn Ceiriog, or perhaps Glyndyfrdwy, Merioneth, from where he
      journeyed
      around Powys, Anglesey, Gwynedd and Gwent. He also occasionally worked as
      a drover driving sheep for sale in England. Newcourt and Raglan Castle,
      which he described as a fair rock-built court, were at the furthest extent
      of his circuit. Indeed, one of his most important patrons was Sir William
      Herbert, Earl of Pembroke (1st creation) whose rise to power he witnessed.
      Harri Ddu was steward of Ewyas Lacy / Longtown from March 1460 and Guto’r
      Glyn confirms this by describing him as the arm of Longtown. Guto’r Glyn
      further states that it was Harri who had brought him to Richard Duke of
      York, for they travelled together in the Duke’s retinue to France in 1441
      [2]. The Duke was executed in December 1460. Subsequently, Sir William
      Herbert, and Harri Ddu, fought at the Battle of Mortimer’s Cross in 1461.
      Harri was awarded an annuity in 1464/5. Guto’r Glyn sang for King Edward
      IV, whose collar and badge he wore as an indentured soldier, and he
      probably entertained the young Henry Tudor at Raglan Castle in 1462.
      Despite Guto’r
      Glyn’s Yorkist sympathies, he was recorded, in 1468, as entreating Sir
      William to focus on uniting Wales into a single country. In 1469 Guto’r
      Glyn lost two patrons when both brothers, the Earl of Pembroke and Sir
      Richard Herbert of Coldbrook, were executed. Guto’r Glyn himself died in
      1493 at
      the Abbey of Valle Crucis where, ill and blind, he was cared for by Abbot
      Dafydd ab Ieuan ab Iorwerth. Although Guto’r Glyn probably knew Harri for
      several years before 1441, his surviving poems dedicated to Harri Ddu ap
      Gruffudd must date between 1452, when Newcourt was built, to
      Harri’s death which was probably soon after 1477. Harri’s son, Miles, died
      in 1488

      We can find a black god in this poem to Harri:

      LXXV 95 [5]
      I Harri Ddu o Euas Harri the Black of Ewyas
      Lle nid da lliw onid du, Where there’s no good colour but black,
      Llwyddiant ar bob dyn lliwddu! success to every man of black colour!
      Gorau lliw dan gwr lleuad The best colour under the edge of the moon
      A roes Duw ar ŵr o stad. did God put on a man of status.
      Dewin wyf, di-wan afael, I’m a diviner, strong of grasp,
      Duw ei hun oedd ŵr du hael. God himself was a generous black man,
      A da fydd, dragywydd dro, and good for all time will be
      Y fernagl a fu arno. the Veil of Veronica that was on him [i].
      A melfed (Pwy nis credai?) And velvet will be (who wouldn’t believe it?)
      Muchudd du fydd a di-fai. jet black and faultless.
      Sidan a phupur, os adwaen, Silk and pepper, if I know,
      Y sabl oll y sy o’u blaen. the sable is all the best of them.
      Gorau unlliw graeanllwydd The single best colour of the rich gravel
      Gan ŵr yw y gwinau rhwydd. for a man is the generous black. (jet?)
      Ni chair er ofn na charu No brave one is found brave, for fear or love,
      Un dewr dewr ond o ŵr du. except a black man.
      Hawddamor, Ifor afael, Greetings (an Ifor in grip) [ii]
      Herwydd hyn, Harri Ddu hael! because of this, openhanded Harri the Black!
      Gwirfab o feirch ac arfau, A true son of Gruffudd, with horses and weapons,
      Gruffudd yw’r carw muchudd mau. is my jet stag.
      Ŵyr Harri, wewyr hirion, Grandson of Harri (of long spears,
      Gyrrwr sias ac orwyr Si. a driver of the chase) and great-grandson
      of Siôn.
      Henyw ef・ hen fo’i wallt, He’s descended, may his hair be old,
      Harri o rin hoyw Reinallt. Harri, from the bright virtue of Rheinallt.
      Haws caru lliw du lle d麝 Easier to love the colour black where he
      comes
      Na charu orls a chwrel. than to love fur and coral.
      Pob lliw’n y byd, cyngyd call, Every colour in the world, prudent thought,
      A ’穗 ddu o iawn ddeall. turns black if rightly understood.
      Llyna fal y dyfalwn Behold, just as I made the comparison,
      Garw du, perl gywirdeb hwn. a black stag, he’s the pearl of faithfulness!
      Nid dau-eiriog naturiol, Not two-tongued by nature,
      Ni thry’r un a wnaeth ar . one who won’t afterward reverse what he
      did.
      Ni baidd neb, un wyneb Nudd, No one attacks (of the same fame as Nudd)
      At Henri ’穩 gwayw tanrudd. Harri (Henry) with the fire-red spear.
      5
      Och ym ar dir a chymell Alas for me when pushed to it,
      O bu ŵr ・bwa well; if there was a better man with a bow,
      Na chystal, ynial annerch, or as good, wild greeting,
      Ar y maen mawr er mwyn merch. with the great stone, for a girl’s sake.
      I minnau, gwarau gwiwraen, I too, backs of worthy black,
      Y bu air mawr er bwrw maen. had a great reputation for stone-throwing.
      Hiroedl a fo i Harri Long life to Harri!
      Y sydd i’m diswyddaw i. who deposes me!
      A hefyd, fy niwyd n靡, And furthermore, my diligent lord,
      O gorfydd moes ac arfer, if manner and custom prevail,
      Gwell y gŵyr ef gwallaw gwin he knows better how to pour wine
      Garbron no gwŷr y brenin. in one’s presence than the king’s men.
      Hirbell y catwo felly, Long may he remain so,
      Harri, fraich y Drehir fry! Harri, the arm of Longtown up there! [iii]
      Dyro iddo, Duw rwyddael, Give to him, God free and generous,
      Fywyd hir i fab Fawd hael, long life to the son of generous Mawd,
      A chadw o Grist iechyd a gras and Christ preserve the health and grace
      Angel du yng ngwlad Euas. of a black angel in the land of Euas (Ewyas).
      [i] Traditionally Saint Veronica wiped Christ’s face with her veil on His
      way to the Cross; her Veil
      received the imprint of Christ’s face. Perhaps Guto’r Glyn’s reference is
      to a painting which
      may have hung either in the chapel at Newcourt or possibly in Bacton Church.
      [ii] Harri is compared to Ifor Hael, the generous patron of the bard
      Dafydd ap Gwilym.
      [iii] Longtown, an alternative name for Harri’s district of Ewyas Lacy.
      LXXVII 96

      And I notice the rhyming couplets in the Welsh. Poems that could be
      remembered down the ages until written down by someone (as was Taliesin by
      Geoffrey of Monmouth, imperfect in his Welsh but with the vision that it
      should be preserved and made accessible to us)

      There are nine Welsh bardic poems that refer to members of Blanche Parry’s
      family. One poem, by Guto’r Glyn, gives the family’s definitive pedigree:
      Sion (John) → Harri → Gruffudd → Harri Ddu → Miles
      ap Harri → Henry Myles.
      The bards concerned are:
      Guto’r Glyn
      Gwilym Tew
      Hwel Dafi (Howel)
      Huw Cae Llwyd
      Lewys Morgannwg
      Welsh poetry is not as widely known as it should be and its importance in
      providing primary evidence concerning Blanche’s family has not previously
      been appreciated. The songs of the bards, which were often accompanied on
      a harp, were part of the culture of Blanche’s family. Those in attendance
      heard the poems at Raglan Castle, where there were resident bards, and at
      Newcourt itself, a house which was a part of the bardic circuit. Many
      bards were involved but those with specific references to Blanche’s
      immediate family were Guto’r Glyn, who was flourishing from 1430s-1493,
      Gwilym Tew 1460-1480, Hywel Dafi 1450-1480, Huw Cae Llwyd 1431-1504, and
      Lewys Morgannwg 1520-1565 [1]. In manuscript form the following songs /
      poems are written in 15th-16th century Welsh.

      The patrons of the bards were all-important. These included the families of
      Herbert, Stradling, and the Vaughans of Tretower, as well as Blanche’s
      family.

      Sir William Herbert was pre-eminent among these patrons. He was the son of
      Sir William ap Thomas of Raglan and Gwladys, daughter of the Dafydd Gam
      mentioned by William Shakespeare in Henry V. Their effigies can still be
      seen in Saint Mary’s Priory Church, Abergavenny. Sir William was,
      therefore, the half-brother of Sir Roger Vaughan of Tretower. In 1459 he
      married Anne Devereux. Sir William had been captured in France in 1450 at
      the Battle of Formigny and presumably ransomed. He was knighted soon after
      and was able to start rebuilding Raglan Castle with the proceeds of the
      cross-Channel trade, including Gascon wine, that he shipped to Bristol. He
      had evidently not decided on his political allegiance as he did not fight
      for the Yorkist cause at Ludford Bridge in October 1459. He was rewarded
      for this by the government
      of the Lancastrian King Henry VI by being made Sheriff of Glamorgan and
      Constable of Usk Castle in 1460. However, Richard Duke of York was
      executed in December 1460 after his defeat at the Battle of Wakefield. His
      son was Edward Earl of March, soon to be King Edward IV, and the most
      powerful of the marcher lords. Herbert joined him in time to be so
      instrumental in the decisive Yorkist victory at the Battle of Mortimer’s
      Cross in Herefordshire in 1461, that he was created Baron Herbert of
      Raglan. In 1462, the year he became a Knight of the Garter, Henry Tudor,
      later King Henry VII, became his ward. Herbert consolidated North Wales
      for King Edward IV and was rewarded by being made Chief Justice of North
      Wales in 1467. In 1468 the value of his military support was recognised
      when King Edward created him the Earl of Pembroke (1st creation).
      Surviving accounts show that when he was not on official or military
      duties William Herbert was at Raglan Castle throughout the late 1450s and
      1460s. The bard Guto’r Glyn entertained him there, describing the Great
      Tower which stands above all other buildings.
      Herbert rebuilt the gatehouse and laid out new courtyards on a magnificent
      scale, the bard Dafydd Llwyd describing the castle as having a hundred
      rooms filled with festive fair [3]. However, William Herbert’s acumen for
      being on the winning side finally deserted him in July 1469 when he was
      defeated at the Battle of Edgecote and then executed by the Earl of
      Warwick. He was buried in Tintern Abbey. His brother Sir Richard Herbert
      of Coldbrook, also a patron of the bards, was beheaded at the same time
      and is buried in Saint
      Mary’s, Abergavenny in the place Sir William in his Will had chosen for
      himself. One of the earl’s three known illegitimate sons was William
      Herbert of Troy who married, secondly, Blanche the daughter of Simon
      Milborne and sister of Alice who married Henry Myles. Subsequently,
      Blanche, Lady Troy became Princess Elizabeth’s Lady Mistress.

      Harri Ddu was related to the Herberts. But the Sir William Herbert whose
      daughter Mary married Dee’s son Arthur at an early age is Sir William
      Herbert of St Julians in Wales. And a look at him shows the connection
      with Dee’s wool trade background, and the budding navy of that time. Dee
      lived next door to him and after his death sent his servant to care for
      his widow according to the diary.

      According to Sir Walter's will (1550) he had a ship called "James" that he
      bequeathed to his second son George, which fact proves that the Herberts
      of St. Julians had then already realised the trading chances offered by
      the river Usk and were on their way gathering capital.
      When Sir George and Sir Walter rode away to wars, St. Julians was being
      looked after by their wives, Sir George's wife Sibylla, then Sir Walter's
      first wife Mary, daughter of Sir William Morgan of Pencoed, and later by
      his second wife Cecely.
      We know nothing about the characters or looks of these women; we can only
      imagine that they, like so many other ladies of the period, in castles and
      manor houses, became the actual householders, watchful and thrifty, giving
      all their time and energy to the economical running of the house and
      estate. They must have had servants, of course: in the house itself
      servant girls of all kinds, possibly a housekeeper, and a nurse to look
      after the children, as well as a wet-nurse. There may have been personal
      maids and laundresses, a cook or two and for the estate a steward, a
      gardener, stable-men and occasional workers. The ladies had to keep an eye
      on the steward as he hired the servants once every year. The servants had
      wages, board and lodging, but also a clothing allowance. Cloth had to be
      bought either yearly or more often. Then there was the spinning and
      weaving, the dressmaking, the embroidering, the storing of foodstuffs,
      making of preserves. Milk, butter and cheese came from the different
      tenants around, fish out of the river Usk. There was not a lot of
      furniture, yet; chairs were still unusual. But Cecely had at least two
      feather beds, as she bequeathed them in her will to her two nieces.
      There were three children in Sir Walter's house: William, George and
      Miles. We do not know which of the parents died first; we only know that
      Sir Walter must have lived past the year 1550. He had been High Sheriff of
      Monmouthshire, that is why we can think him comparatively wealthy.
      Sir Walter's eldest son, William, became sheriff in 1553 and M.P. in 1555.
      It was natural that he was elected to the Parliament, being a member of a
      notable family. There is no reason to suspect that he would have used any
      disreputable methods to be elected - a lamentably usual state of affairs
      at the period. (16)
      It would be interesting to know for certain what Sir William's religious
      views were, as this was the time of temporary return to Catholicism during
      the reign of Mary I. There is one hint towards at least a tolerant
      attitude: he arranged the marriage - most marriages of the time were
      indeed arranged - of his son William to the daughter of William Morgan of
      Llantarnam, head of one of the foremost Catholic families of
      Monmouthshire. These two families, the Herberts and the Morgans rivalled
      for high office. Sir William Herbert was M.P. from 1555 to 1557, William
      Morgan from 1553 to 1554. The rivalry continued during the lives of their
      sons, Sir William junior being M.P. 1584 and 1586 and Edward Morgan 1584
      to 1585, and 1586 to 1587.
      Sir William's brother George was the actual merchant of the family. He
      probably lived in Newport, however, not in St. Julians. At the period the
      trade was generally growing, it was worth having ships to carry hides and
      wool, even wheat, to Bristol at least if not further. The cloth and cattle
      trade attracted the Herberts as they had attracted many other families "on
      the make" since the end of the previous century. George Herbert's ships
      may have gone past St. Julians, up the river to Caerleon, as the fact that
      he had a cellar there seems to show. His father has bequeathed the "James"
      to him with "all manner of cabelle, anchors, roopes, tacklinge, guns and
      ordnynnce weapons". He also was the owner of "Le Steven" which brought
      cargoes of salt and wines from La Rochelle, and "Le Dragon" or "Green
      Dragon". (17)
      George was not very scrupulous in his dealings. His barque "The (Green)
      Dragon" "transgressed the Queen's regulations every time it left port,
      since its cargo was usually one of wheat carried down the Severn in trowes
      or barges from Gloucestershire and Herefordshire. This blatant evasion of
      customs tolls was common knowledge to Her Majesty's subjects in those
      parts, but not - by some inexplicable omission - to Her Majesty's Customs
      officials in Cardiff and Newport". (18) One can imagine the reason for the
      "inexplicable" ignorance of the officials. It must have been kept going by
      means George and other merchants knew only too well.
      In his will George Herbert bequeathed his ships and his cellar "in
      Carlyne", where he kept his salt to his nephew Sir William Herbert junior.
      He may have kept other things there as well, or in some other cellar in
      Caerleon. He did import wines, and they must have been stored somewhere.
      According to "The Monmouthshire Houses" by Fox-Raglan, the houses in the
      area often provided a cellar which was "accessible for the large cider
      barrels from outside, and with an inner door to enable their contents
      readily to reach the hall". (19) A similar arrangement may have existed in
      St. Julians as well.
      The third son of Sir Walter, Miles, died rather young, as his wife was a
      widow in 1568 already. Miles probably lived at Crindau, in his wife's
      home. However, his elder brother, William, bequeathed him in his will
      (which was already made in 1554) also "a tenement in the parish of St.
      Michael at Lanternam".
      We now come to the most interesting of the Herberts of St. Julians, Sir
      William the younger, who was born 1554. He was 13 years old when his
      father died in 1567. (20) He combined the roles of the intellectual and
      the practical man.
      Of Sir William's youth the National Dictionary of Biography tells that he
      studied under Laurence Humphrey, president of Magdalen College, Oxford,
      and must have been his private pupil. He was described by his friends as
      learned and 'of a very high mind'. His educational standard was the
      highest reached in the family so far, and the fact that he was given this
      chance shows that his father, Sir William the senior, understood the
      importance of education. In fact, the Herberts of St. Julians are even in
      this respect typical of the period. G. D. Owen writes: "Now that their
      (i.e. of the Welsh gentry) energies and natural turbulence were being
      canalised by the Government to more useful purposes, and the perquisites
      of office as well as influence and honours placed within their reach,
      something more than literacy was considered to be an indispensable
      condition for self-advancement and for the satisfactory performance of the
      many duties entrusted to them". (21) Sir William the junior later went
      even further in his educational zeal: he proposed to found a college,
      first in Ireland, in his own plantation area, then in Tintern.
      Sir William did marry very prudently, at least in regard to property.
      Florence's father William Morgan was one of the wealthiest landowners of
      Monmouthshire. Whether the marriage was indeed prudent in other respects,
      we do not know. In the 1580's the life of the Catholics became difficult,
      as they could even lose their lives in addition to paying large fines for
      recusancy. Sir William Herbert was a zealous Protestant all through his
      life. There may have been times of tension in the house. On the other
      hand, Florence may have recanted and accepted her husband's religious
      opinions. In any case, she had enough sorrow in her life without this kind
      of difficulty, as we shall see later on.
      One cannot help wondering, however, whether Sir William's Protestantism
      might have been of a rather calculated kind. In general, the Welsh were
      rather lukewarm towards religion at this period - some Catholic recusants
      being exceptions.
      Sir William was knighted in 1578 and became sheriff in 1580, M.P. in 1584
      and again 1586. In the latter year his life took another turn. Elizabeth I
      then approved the 'Articles' for the plantation of the lands in Ireland
      which had belonged to the Earl of Desmond, after the supression of the
      Desmond Revolt. (22) Sir William had probably some connections with others
      who took part in this new venture, through his activity as M.P. When the
      lord Deputy, Perrot, was dismissed, Sir William was one of the
      'undertakers' who came to take large allotments of forfeited land in
      Munster. Sir William was not like most of the landlords in Ireland. He had
      real sympathy with the Irish peasants - would this have been the result of
      his relationship with the Welsh peasants around St. Julians? - and he
      tried to keep their rents reasonably limited. He also denounced the other
      planters for their tyranny and he seems to have thought the world of his
      Monmouthshire men whom he would have liked to bring to replace the English
      garrison. His Protestant zeal induced him to try to make converts among
      the Irish population. He even had parts of the Anglican service translated
      into Irish. All this had the effect that the English landlords in Ireland
      called him all kinds of names, laughed at his "fat conceit" and his "Welsh
      humour", as well as showed their contempt for his liking of the Irish.
      This spiritual battle came to a head in 1589, and Sir William returned to
      Wales, tired and disgusted. (23)
      Now Sir William turned back to more solitary occupations. Before going to
      Ireland he had already written Latin philosophical and theological works
      which did arouse attention and even admiration. One of his admirers was
      Thomas Churchyard who might even have stayed in St. Julians when
      travelling in the area. His "Worthiness of Wales" came out 1587, so he
      must have been in Monmouthshire before Sir William went to Ireland. He
      dedicated a poem to Sir William. However, Sir William's later son-in-law,
      Lord Herbert of Cherbury, was not as enthusiastic. He describes Sir
      William's work, called "A Letter written by a Catholicke to a Romaine
      Catholicke" (1586) as being "an Exposition upon the Revelations" but "some
      thought he was as far from finding the sense thereof as he was from
      attaining the philosopher's stone which was another part of his study".
      (24)
      In addition to his writing Sir William must have devoted some time to
      looking after his estate which was growing rapidly. Liswerry was granted
      by Elizabeth I to him in 1582, Lebenith was bought by him, he was
      appointed the chief steward of the manor of Rumney in 1583. (25) Besides
      he must have received some lands through his wife Florence. St. Julians
      alone consisted of 103 Welsh acres - within the manor of Carlion -
      besides, there were 24 Welsh acres of land and pasture "in Cawldrey" and
      "divers messuages, lands" etc. in Tintern, Newport, Stowe and Dyffryn".
      Sir William's character was on the inflexible side, which fact finally led
      to tragedy. According to Prosapia Herbertorum he would not keep cats to
      combat the rats which were infesting the house - we know that the banks of
      the Usk are still troubled by rodents - but used poison instead. He put it
      "upon Cards upon the Shelves and other places of his Study. It so happened
      on a time that the two young Lads came in the father all that time being
      intent upon his Study and playing tbout the Roome they perceived the Rats
      Cand (sic!) which they indeed thought was Sugar Candy. So as both of them
      eate thereof and carried the card unto their father who became affrighted
      aske (sic!) them what became of the Rats Cand that was within it the
      pretty Babes tould their fiather they eate it astonisht he went
      immediately … to work with Oil of Olive Butter milk and what he had ready
      …"
      Nothing helped, and his two sons died. "Inexpressible was the Sorrow of
      the parents. Lamentable were the cryes of Seruants, and condoling of the
      family and friends for this great loss which in especiall manner wrought
      upon their dear Mother that she was well nigh distracted to the day of her
      death". We can imagine the scene very well: the commotion, weeping and the
      sense of loss.
      The same source tells about the child who was left, Mary. She may have
      been older than the two boys; we know only that she was born in 1578, when
      her father died in 1593, she was about 15. As Welshmen generally, Sir
      William also was very proud of his pedigree, firmly believing that he was
      of royal descent. (26) This belief rested, however, on very shaky
      foundation. (27) He seems to have impressed Churchyard in any case, who
      said in his poem dedicated to Sir William, that by right Raglan castle
      should have belonged to Sir William and not gone to another Herbert branch
      through female line. (28) After the death of his sons Sir William saw the
      future of his family in doubt. The only way to preserve the name and the
      estate intact was to bind Mary to marry another Herbert. This Sir William
      stated many times over in his will.
      According to the Prosapia Herbertorum "many were the suitors" of Mary. It
      is possible that she had a childhood sweetheart, the son of the famous Dr.
      Dee, the philosopher and alchemist whom her father knew well and with whom
      her father was studying alchemy in Mortlake, Surrey. (29) One suspects,
      however, that this may have been only a childish fancy, nothing more, as
      the children were both quite young then.
      But Mary was lucky - at least so it seems. She married the dashing, young
      beau of the time, Edward, Lord Herbert of Cherbury, who was a member of
      the family's Montgomeryshire branch and thus "a cousin". Lord Herbert of
      Cherbury writes in his Life: "I had not been many months in the University
      (i.e. Oxford) but the news was brought to me of my father's death. …
      Shortly after I was sent again to my studies in Oxford, where I had not
      been long but that an overture for a match with the daughter and heir of
      Sir William Herbert of St. Julians was made … Mary, after her father died,
      continued unmarried until she was one-and-twenty; none of the Herberts
      appearing in all that time, who, either in age or fortune, was fit to
      match her. About this time I had attained the age of fifteen, (30) and a
      match at last being proposed, yet, notwithstanding the disparity of years
      betwixt us, upon the eight-and-twentieth of February 1598 (or -9), in the
      house of Eyton . . . I espoused her".
      It is intriguing to think what kind of a marriage that was. Lord Cherbury
      only mentions Mary in passing. He may not have had much time for her,
      having so many interests and so many admirers. Women as individuals did
      not matter very much in any case, at that period. She did bear "divers
      children" to him, all in the early years of their marriage, because the
      last one, Edward, was born soon after Lord Cherbury had gone abroad.
      Perhaps his description of the decision to go abroad tells something of
      their relationship.
      He had suggested to her that she and he should make their property over to
      their sons, but Mary had refused. "I told her then, that I should make
      another motion to her; which was, that in regard I was too young to go
      beyond sea before I married her, she now would give me leave for a while
      to see foreign countries; howbeit, if she would assure her lands as I
      would mine, I would never depart from her. She answered, that I knew her
      mind before concerning that point, yet that she should be sorry I went
      beyond sea; nevertheless, if I would needs go, she could not help it".
      Lord Herbert of Cherbury went beyond sea, and very fast, satisfied that "I
      left her not only posterity to renew the family of the Herberts of St.
      Julians according to her father's desire to inherit his lands, but the
      rents of all the lands she brought with her". He also thinks that he had
      "lived most honestly with her".
      There was Mary, left alone, expecting her youngest child, with "divers
      others" running around her - or around their nurse.
      The people of Newport often fondly remember Edward Lord Herbert of
      Cherbury as the most glorious of all the Herberts of St. Julians. In
      popular books and articles are stories of his life in the mansion. To the
      writer of this article it seems highly improbable that he ever spent very
      long time there. Lord Herbert of Cherbury would never have wanted to stay
      in such a far-away district. Even the marriage ceremony was at Eyton -
      although it was customary to have it in the bridegroom's house - and soon
      after that he took his bride and his mother to Oxford, thereafter to
      London. He does mention St. Julians in his "Life" a couple of times, e.g.
      when he tells about riding from there to Abergavenny, at which occasion he
      bravely saved his servant from drowning in the Usk, but that is all.
      The surroundings of St. Julians must have been quiet and dull. Only a
      person fond of hunting and fishing might have enjoyed the country
      atmosphere. True, Caerleon was near - but what was Caerleon of the first
      half of the 17th century like? There cannot have been much company for an
      adventurous and philosophic "coxcombe" like lord Edward - or for a highly
      educated and civilised man of the world as he also was. Newport cannot
      have been any better. G. D. Owen says about Welsh towns in the Elizabethan
      age:
      "Unlike English towns … there was a singular absence of organised
      pageantry and presentation of mystery plays and interludes based on scenes
      from the Holy Scriptures. … Sometimes the soporific atmosphere of a Welsh
      town would be disturbed by the sudden appearance of a menagerie … it would
      be true to say that the townsmen relaxed or sought their entertainment in
      drinking with their boon companions". (31)
      Of course Lord Herbert of Cherbury was not one of the townsmen, but it has
      been known of noblemen that they did take part in the life of the towns in
      some way or other. Thinking of Lord Edward's character and interests, one
      cannot believe that he would have enjoyed the entertainments above
      described.
      It has been suggested, or that impression has been given, that he wrote
      his works in St. Julians. There certainly would have been peace for that
      kind of work and - there was Sir William's library. Perhaps he did write
      something there during his rare visits. But when?
      Lord Cherbury had property in Caerleon, e.g. in Jany Crane Street, "in
      right of Mary, his wife", and Le long y Backe, as well as freehold land
      "called Craig leche" and lands in "Lanvihangell ton y grose called Tir y
      castell coch", as the survey of Caerleon manor of the year 1622 tells us.
      In the survey of 1653 his name is still among the burgage holders and free
      tenants of Caerleon, although he had died five years before that.
      The house was of course inherited by his eldest son Richard and in turn by
      his grandson Edward. The latter died without issue, and the estate came
      into the hands of his widow's new husband, the earl of Inchiquin. The
      widow married a third time, however. Her last husband was Isaac George, a
      sea captain who lived at St. Julians after her death. (32) She was buried
      in Caerleon. (33) After Isaac George's death St. Julians was let to farm
      and finally sold - some time before 1772 - to Charles Van of Llanwern.
      (34)
      In these days the noisy modern world passes by St. Julians. The site of
      the chapel is buried somewhere under modern buildings, and the old porch
      is now squeezed almost out of existence. Caerleon Road stretches from
      Newport to Caerleon and is tarmac covered - so is the ancient London road
      that turns off from Caerleon Road about 300 yards from St. Julians towards
      the direction of Newport. In the time of the Herberts, the London road
      existed, but there was hardly anything else than a bridle path between St.
      Julians and Caerleon, and even that went round about. Skirting the hill it
      joined the old road going up to Christchurch, at Ashwell, and from there
      along the river bank to the old bridge of Caerleon at the spot where the
      Romans already had a bridge. Both of the Williams must have ridden their
      horses along the London road on their way to the Parliament and George
      must have used both the river and the bridle path on his way to his
      cellars in Caerleon. Travelling was difficult, except on horseback or by
      boat. In an ordinary way, the women did not move about very much. Perhaps
      Florence Herbert went home to Llantarnam sometimes, and perhaps to Ireland
      with her husband. Mary did go away - to marry.
      And what did they look like?
      Lord Herbert of Cherbury describes his own father: "… my father, whom I
      remember to have been black-haired and bearded, as all my ancestors of his
      side are said to have been, of a manly, or somewhat stern look, but
      withall very handsome and well compact in his limbs, and of a great
      courage …". It is only reasonable to assume that the branch which lived in
      St. Julians had the same good looks.
      By their blood the Herberts were Welsh, and it seems they instinctively
      adhered to the Welsh monarchs, the Tudors, as did many other Welshmen of
      the period. They also consciously admitted being Welsh. Lord Cherbury says
      he knew the Welsh language and we can guess the previous generations knew
      it even better. It would have been the language spoken in St. Julians,
      even by the master and mistress of the house, not to mention the servants
      who mostly must have been local people. Since the Act of Union (1536,
      1543) English was the language of legal procedure. However, a lot of Welsh
      had to be used in court proceedings, as the people of Monmouthshire were
      certainly Welsh-speaking in the 16th and 17th century, even until the
      19th. The officials had to be bi-lingual.
      To conclude: in the history of the Herberts of St. Julians one can see
      development from the military to the landowning officials and wealthy
      tradesmen, in fact the same development that was going on generally in
      Britain during the 16th and 17th centuries. One can also see clearly that
      they were "as actual as we are today".
      NOTES
      1. G. M. Trevellyan, "An Autobiography and other Essays". Longmans, 1949,
      P. 13.
      2. G. M. Trevellyan, English Social History (1955 ed), p. 151. Reference
      to Major General Barry's letter to Oliver Cromwell.
      3. Coxe, A Historical Tour of Monmouthshire I, p. 52.
      4. A note in Rev. W. J. Rees's English edition of the Book of Llandaff, p.
      483.
      5. Churchyard, "Worthiness of Wales", 1776 edition.
      6. Coxe, I, p. 79.
      7. Joseph Bradney, History of Monmouthshire, Vol. IV, part II, p. 300.
      8. Rev. E. J. Rees, Book of Llandaff, p. 484.
      9. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 294.
      10. Prospapia Herbertorum, MS written in the latter half of the 17th
      century, possibly by Thomas Herbert of Tintern.
      11. Glanmore Williams: The Welsh Church from the Conquest to the
      Reformation, p. 249.
      12. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 295.
      13. Dictionary of National Biography: "William Herbert acted 'probably at
      (Sir James) croft's suggestion (and) became an 'undertaker' ' for the
      plantation of Munster on 5 May 1586".
      14. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 295.
      15. Id. Bradney refers to Thomas Wright: History of Ludlow (1852), p. 383,
      but doubts this and thinks the rumours were perhaps exaggerated.
      16. G. D. Owen: Elizabethan Wales, pp. 33-35.
      17. J. W. Dawson: Commerce and Customs. Newport and Caerleon, p. 10.
      18. G. D. Owen, Elizabethan Wales, p. 132. Refers to PRO Exchequer Q.R.
      Special Commissions. 2895.
      19. Fox-Raglan: Monmouthshire houses, part II, p. 84.
      20. Dict, of Nat. Biogr.
      21. G. D. Owen, p. 198.
      22. Edmund Curtis: A History of Ireland, p. 199.
      23. A. H. Dodd: Studies in Stuart Wales, pp. 78-79.
      24. Life of Edward Lord Herbert of Cherbury, ed. by Sidney Lee.
      25. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, pp. 296-297.
      26. The Herberts traced their descent from a bastard of Henry I.
      27. See Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae, by George T. Clark,
      London 1886.
      28. Churchyard, ed. 1776.
      29. Life of Lord H. of Cherb., Sidney Lee's ed. 2, p. 22.
      30. Sydney Lee thinks he must have been 17 years old.
      31. G. D. Owen: Elizabethan Wales. pp. 105-106.
      32. Bradney, Vol. 1V, part II, p. 293.
      33. The Parish Registers of Llangattock-juxta-Caerleon: Elizabeth George,
      buried 25th Febr. 1756.
      34. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 299.
      Obs. The notes of the Wills are all from the collection of copies kept in
      Newport Ref. Libr.
      CAERLEON NET

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      There are several views of St Julians on the Newport Past Website.

      Here is a look around St Mary’s Chapel – the Herberts chapel. Mary is a
      recurrent name in their family:

      Historic Artefacts in St Mary's Church
      St Mary's Church contains a most interesting series of monuments,
      consisting chiefly of altar tombs, ten in number, bearing recumbent
      effigies, dating from the 13th to the 16tb century.
      (1) The earliest of these is the effigy of a very young man, clad in a
      hauberk and hood of chain mail, and a a long surcoat, his head reposing on
      cushions end his feet on a lion; the hands are placed together, and the
      whole figure, together with the slab on which it lies, is carved out of
      one solid balk of timber; this effigy is now placed on a trestle table
      made for the purpose in the Herbert chapel, and is believed to represent
      George de Cantelupe, who died 25 April, 1273, aged 20.
      (2 and 3) The next in order are two monuments of about the middle of the
      14th century: the first of these is an effigy of stone lying on a plain
      altar tomb within a panelled and traceried recess under one of the south
      windows of this chapel, and represents a knight in bascinet with hood and
      camail, a long surcoat, and legs encased in plate armour: the is identity
      of this figure is quite doubtful, but it perhaps represents Sir William
      Hastings, ob. 1349: the other monument is an altar tomb of the Decorated
      period on the opposite side of the chapel, at the back of the stalls, the
      sides of which are relieved with crocketed and canopied panelling, once
      contaimug statuettes, of which only one headless example now remains; the
      recumbent stone effigy is clad much as the preceding, and it seems
      tolerably certain that it represents Lawrence de Hastings, ob. 13 Aug.
      1348, and buried here.
      (4) In the centre of the Herbert Chapel stands an altar tomb of rough
      masonry cased on two sides and at the east end with slabs of sculptured
      alabaster, dating from the end of the 15th century and once probably
      forming part of the screen above the high altar. The side slabs consist of
      shallow canopied niches containing figures; that at the foot represents
      the "Annunciation" with a censing angel on either side. On the tomb lie
      the recumbent effigies of Sir William ap Thomas, ob. 1446, and Gladys, his
      wife, daughter of Sir David Gam, ob. 1454. The male effigy is in plate
      armour, and wears a collar of SS. At the head of the figures are large
      canopies of unequal site, brought from elsewhere, and probably also
      portions of the great altar screen.
      (5) Parallel with the foregoing, and below the arch opening from the
      Herbert chapel to the choir 18 another large altar tomb of alabaster,
      surrounded or nearly the whole of the two sides with elegant canopied
      niches, Surmounted by an embattled creating, and containing fifteen
      figures, twelve of which bear shields, the remaining three representing
      the Virgin and Child, St. Catherine and St. Margaret, and moat likely once
      at the foot of the tomb, both ends being now blank: on the Upper slab are
      the recumbent effigies of a knight and lady, much mutilated; the former is
      in plate armour, with a collar of alternate suns and roses, and the head
      resting on a helm with his crest, a sheaf of arrows: the lady is attired
      in a long robe and mantle and wears a rich necklace; at the heads of the
      figures are mutilated alabaster canopies, not, apparently, belonging to
      this monument: these effigies represent Sir Richard Herbert of Coldbrook,
      2nd son of Sir William ap Thomas, before mentioned; he fought valiantly on
      the Yorkist side at the battle of Edgecote or Banbury, 26 July, '459,
      where he 'was taken prisoner, and executed on the following day; Margaret,
      his wife, was the daughter of Thames ap Gryffydd.
      (6) In the south wall of the Herbert chapel, within a recess under a
      flattened ogees crocketed arch, is an altar tomb of alabaster, the front
      of which is adorned with nine double canopied niches, eight of which
      contain seated figures, and the central one a sculptured kneeling angel
      from some other structure: on the top of the tomb lies the recumbent
      effigy, bareheaded, of a man in plate armour, his head resting on a helm
      and his feet on a lion, and on the chamfered margin of the tomb is an
      inscription in black letter, only a portion of which, viz., the words
      "regni regis Henrici Octavi 2 cujus aia propitiatur Jes. Amen" are
      original. The figure, however, correctly represents Richard Herbert,
      Esquire, a natural son of Sir William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, ob.
      Sept.1510: on the arch above are the arms of Herbert, debruised with a
      baton arg., and impaling Cradock. At the back of the recess is a
      collection of figures carved in alabaster on three separate slabs: that in
      the centre depicts the "Coronation of the Virgin," and on either side are
      kneeling figures of three men in armour and a female, and beneath each
      figure a shield bearing the arms of Herbert and Cradock alternately; under
      the whole runs an embattled molding.
      (7) On the north side of the choir, under the arch between it and the
      Lewis chapel, are two small altar tombs placed end to end and projecting
      eastwards from the western pier. The one next the pier has been roughly
      built up, and bears a female effigy of freestone, only about 4 ft. 6 in.
      long, clad in a close-fitting robe, the head, now incomplete, resting on
      two cushions and the feet on some animal: the figure, which is of much
      earlier date than the present church, is conjectured to represent Eva,
      daughter of William Marshall, Earl of Pembroke, and wife of William de
      Brosse, lord of Abergavenny: She died in 1246. The tomb, forming a
      continuation of the preceding is of hard gritstone, and appears to have
      been made up from different sources; the north side displays three square
      panels with quatrefoils enclosing plain shields; on the opposite side are
      five square panels also containing plain shields, and above, on the margin
      of the slab, a molding of roses: the recumbent effigy is also one of a
      female, 4ft. 3 in. in length, with the head on a cushion and the feet on a
      dog; the figurs is clad in wimple and veil and an ample mantle, and the
      upraised hands hold what was probably a heart: nearly the whole of the
      body below the hands is covered by a long shield, charged in relief with
      three fleurs-de-lis, arranged 2 and 1: these were the arms of de
      Cantelupe, and the figure is held to represent Eva de Cantelupe, widow of
      William de Cantelupe, and baroness of Abergavenny in her own right; she
      died in 1257, and was the mother of George de Cantelupe, whose wooden
      effigy has already been described.
      (8) In the north-east angle of the Herbert chapel, against the walls, is a
      rude attar tomb, on which lie the much injured recumbent effigies of
      Andrew Powell, a judge on the Brecon Circuit, 1615-35, and Margaret
      (Herbert), his wife, ob. c1641: the male effigy is attired in slashed
      doublet and breeches and a long gown, and wears a ruff: on the wall above
      the monument is an inscription on brass.
      (9) At the east end of the Lewis chapel, against the north wall, stands
      the quite unique monument of David Lewis, DCL, a native of Abergavenny,
      Principal of New Inn Hall and Jesus College, Oxford, and a Commissioner of
      the High Court of Admiralty, ob. 27 April 1584. The front of the tomb id
      divided into three panels by broad pilasters supporting flattened arches:
      the centre is filled by a large anchor and the words: "IOHN GILDON MADE
      THIS TOW ME "- within the left arch are three clasped books, and above
      them a skull, and round the whole a wreath or fillet, bearing the legend,
      "EN GLORIA MVNDI": in the other arch is a figure of the Sergeant-at-mace
      of the Court of Admiralty, bearing his official silver oar: at the head of
      the tomb are the arms of Wallis, the judge having been the son of the Rev.
      Lewis Wallis: the upperr slab of the tomb is large and massive, and has a
      super slab, on which lies the effigy of the judge, in his official habit
      and wearing a ruff and a flat round cap: the head rests on a book, and
      round the neck are three chains one below the other.
      (10) In the Herbert chapel, and against the back of the stall work, is a
      lofty and elaborate monument of Renaissance character, within which, under
      an arched recess, are figures of a man and woman kneeling face to face at
      a desk, and there is an inscription in Latin to William Baker esq. steward
      to Lord Ahergavenny, and Johanna (Vaughan),. his wife, sister of Dr. David
      Lewis, he died 30 Oct. 16--.
      There are other memorials in the church to Henry Maurice, ob. 30 July,
      1682, and to Lewis James, ob. 15 May, 1663; and affixed to the east end of
      the stalls on the north side are inscribed brasses to Walter Lewys, 1619,
      and John Morgan, gent., 1587, and a small shield with a female bust,
      crowned, within a bordure. On the floor below is a brass inscription to
      John Stephens, 1662; and there are other brasses to William Jones, and
      Elizabeth, his wife, 1756; Richard Baker and his father, 1551-98; and to
      Margaret, wife of John Roberts, 1637, with rudely incised figures of a
      female and of an infant lying on a tasselled cushion. The brass effigy of
      a priest is now concealed by the boarded steps to the altar pall, and one
      of Wm. Herbert of Coldbrook is supposed to be under the floor of the
      Herbert chapel.
      At the east end of the Herbert chapel, beneath the window, is a sort of
      raised platform, faced with stone panelling, consisting of eight canopied
      niches, containing small figures. On this structure now reposes ael
      enormous semi-recumbent figure of Jesse, boldly carved in oak, and in feet
      in length; the head, supported by the right hand, rests on a pillow held
      up by an angel, and from the body issues the stem of a tree which is
      grasped by the left hand. This remarkable figure, which in 1645 lay at the
      east end of the Lewis chapel, was removed in 1828 to the west end of the
      Herbert chapel, and transferred to its present position in 1896; it is
      assumed to have once formed part of a reredos. Lying loose on the floor,
      near this figure is a large and massive but mutilated canopy, perhaps also
      once forming part of the high altar screen.

      Although there is a castle at Pembroke, raglan Castle comes up quite
      frequently and is perhaps the home of Tudor architecture:

      The castle was developed mainly by two men - William ap Thomas, who fought
      with King Henry V at the Battle of
      Agincourt in 1415, and his son, Sir William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke,
      was the next owner of the castle. Herbert was responsible for Raglan's
      distinctive Tudor-styling. The elaborately decorated polygonal keep, and
      the double-drawbridge show French influence, thought to be due to both men
      fighting in France. The castle is constructed out of two sorts of
      sandstone - a pale, yellowish sandstone from the Wye river and a local
      red, brown sandstone used in the Tudor work
      This is not one of Edward I's massive castles built to subdue the Welsh,
      but more a symbol of social success..It was begun by Sir William ap Thomas
      around 1435, when he started building the Great Tower, which he surrounded
      by a moat, the unusual hexagonal plan of the tower are thought to be
      French in character. The Great Tower, known as "The Yellow Tower of
      Gwent," is the most striking feature at Raglan. It was largely destroyed
      by Cromwellian engineers at the end of the English Civil War. The tower
      and moat are outside the main castle.

      Following ap Thomas's death he was succeeded by his son William Herbert ,
      a prominent Yorkist, who was created Earl of Pembroke. Herbert turned
      Raglan into a palace palace. However Herbert was beheaded following his
      defeat at the battle of Edgecote in 1469.
      The castle was also the boyhood home of Henry Tudor, later King Henry VII.

      The Herbert who brought up Henry V11 is another interesting character and
      one can see more Dee and Shakespeare connections down through this line:

      HERBERT family, earls of Pembroke (second creation) .
      WILLIAM HERBERT (c. 1501-1570), 1st earl of Pembroke of the second
      creation , was the eldest son of Sir Richard Herbert (‘Ddu’) of Ewyas,
      bastard of William Herbert (d. 1469), earl of Pembroke of the first
      creation (q.v.), his mother being the daughter of Sir Matthew Cradock
      (q.v.) of Swansea, Receiver of Glamorgan. After a wild youth, in the
      course of which he fought in France and won the favour of the French king,
      he entered the service of Sir Charles Somerset, later 1st earl of
      Worcester (q.v.), to whom most of the Welsh lands of the earldom of
      Pembroke had been transferred on his marriage to the 1st earl 's daughter,
      and through his patron's influence he obtained preferment at the court of
      Henry VIII, which was accelerated after the king m. Herbert's
      sister-in-law Catherine Parr (1543), when he was knighted and rapidly
      accumulated lands and offices in South Wales, including the lordships of
      Usk, Trelleck, and Caerleon, formerly part of the earldom of March, and
      one of the king's gifts to Anne Boleyn. He was also given the lands of
      Wilton monastery, Wilts., served in the Boulogne campaign of 1544 and in
      the defence of the Isle of Wight in 1545, and was given the right to keep
      thirty liveried retainers. As an executor of Henry VIII's will, he became
      a governor to the young king Edward VI, chief gentleman of his privy
      chamber, one of his twelve privy councillors (Jan. 1547), Master of his
      Horse (1548-52), and a Knight of the Garter (Dec. 1548). He raised 2,000
      Welsh to suppress the western rebellion, but refused to use them to back
      up the duke of Somerset's protectorate against his rival Warwick (later
      Northumberland), who had interests on the Welsh border and a strong Welsh
      element (including a Herbert) in his household. (L. & P. Henry VIII, xv,
      355, etc., Addenda, 415). He took part in Somerset's trial (Dec. 1551) and
      was rewarded with his Wiltshire estates. On 8 April 1550, he was made
      president of the Council at Ludlow, and in Oct. 1551, baron Herbert of
      Cardiff and earl of Pembroke. He supported (perhaps initiated)
      Northumberland's plot for crowning lady Jane Grey (July 1553) but drew
      back in time, helped to proclaim Mary, and so won her complete confidence
      and retained his ascendancy, resigning only his presidency at Ludlow. He
      favoured the Spanish match, led the forces which put down Wyatt's
      rebellion (1554), went on diplomatic missions to France and the
      Netherlands (1555), was made governor of Calais (22 Nov. 1556), and
      successfully commanded the British expedition to France (1557). During his
      second presidency at Ludlow (1555-8), his duties accordingly had to be
      discharged by deputy, and in Aug. 1558, he resigned on the ground that
      disorder was growing in the absence of a strong resident head. He remained
      in favour under Elizabeth, who made him ‘custos rotulorum’ of Glamorgan
      (1567) and lord steward of her household (1568). He further increased his
      estates by purchasing the Llantarnam monastic lands (many of which he
      leased to William Morgan, founder of the Morgans of Llantarnam) (qq.v.)
      and the lordship of Neath (1561); but he lost favour through his support
      of the proposed marriage of the duke of Norfolk to Mary, Queen of Scots,
      (1559). He d. on 17 March 1570, and was buried in S. Paul's. Though he was
      not, as sometimes alleged, illiterate, he wrote with difficulty, knew no
      European languages, and was more at home in Welsh than in English. In
      politics and religion he seems to have been a pure opportunist, but his
      love for Wales is attested in the dedication of Gruffydd Robert's
      Gramadeg, 1567, and by his patronage of that pioneer of Welsh
      historiography and printing, Sir John Price of Brecon (q.v.), and other
      Welsh writers (Wood, Ath. Ox., i, 216, 418).

      HENRY HERBERT (c. 1534-1601), 2nd earl , eldest son of the 1st earl, was
      educated at Peterhouse, Cambridge. He entered into his father's plans for
      lady Jane Grey, and was m. (25 May 1553) to her sister Catherine, but
      divorced her (1554) after the plot failed, was made a K.B. (1553) and a
      member of the suite of king Philip (after whom he named his second son),
      and served with his father in France (1557). His succession to the earldom
      was followed by inheritance of the estates of his mother's brother William
      Parr, marquis of Northampton (1571), leaving him one of the richest peers
      of the land; he was also given some of his father's Welsh offices (April —
      May 1570), placed on the commission of the peace for Monmouthshire and
      Glamorgan (1576), and decorated with the Garter (2 April 1574), and in the
      latter year he restored Cardiff castle, where he entertained lavishly. He
      took part in the trials of Norfolk (1572), Mary Queen of Scots (1586), and
      Arundel (1589). In March 1586, he succeeded Sir Henry Sidney (whose
      daughter Mary was his third wife) as president at Ludlow, with the
      vice-admiralty of South Wales. He held regular court, reforming many
      abuses, instilling into the Welsh gentry a sense of public duty,
      instituting a great drive against recusants and urging strongly the
      defence of Milford Haven against Spanish invasion (1595). But ill-health
      set in from 1590 and became almost chronic from 1595, and his frequent
      absences led to intrigues within the Council against his authority, a
      return of many abuses, and a slackening of control over local
      administration. He d. 19 Jan. 1601, and was buried in Salisbury cathedral.
      He was a patron of industrial enterprise, of the stage, and of English and
      Welsh literature, whilst his intimate knowledge of Welsh society and love
      of the language made him, in the words of Thomas Wiliems of Trefriw (q.v.)
      llygad holl Cymru (the eye of all Wales).

      WILLIAM HERBERT (1580-1630), 3rd earl , was educated at New College,
      Oxford (matriculated 8 March 1593). Cecil, who wished him to succeed his
      father at Ludlow (having, i<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
    • Liz Forrest
      Hi Terri and John and everyone else still around, Re black as ‘Ddu’, I ve learned locally that in Irish it is ‘dubh’ pronounced as if an extended or
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 4 3:11 PM
      • 0 Attachment

        Hi Terri and John and everyone else still around, Re black as ‘Ddu’, I've learned locally that in Irish it is ‘dubh’ pronounced as if an extended or double ‘oo’ close to the English ‘dove’ and as meaning ‘black’ can also be interpreted as ‘darkness’.  The Magdalene, as ‘the Lady of the Tower (Migdal), is also called the ‘Lady of the Doves’, perhaps for more than one reason (communication and origin among them).  It was supposedly the ‘Norse’ who settled Dublin and named it ‘Dubh (black0 pool or fountain’.    Re the ‘black God’, I seem to remember that Robert Graves wrote much more about the ‘White Goddess’, than the ‘Black Goddess’ and nothing at all about ‘the Red Goddess’.  Each of the six being a Uay/Way asi in Mayan cosmology?   It was a Herbert, cousin to the Southwells of Castle Matrix (Lady Southwell had also been a lady-in-waiting for Queen Elizabeth), a local one(?),who organised the taking of Castle Matrix in c. 1641-42 after it had lost most of its defences by being expanded into more of a manor house.  Made it just as easy for Cromwell’s troops to retake it, and then it was returned to the Southwells, who held it for another 250 years approximately. 

        I’m also very intrigued by the mention of Blanche, being Lady Troy, married to William Herbert of Troy, as on the Dublin road out of Limerick, there is still the ruin of Castle Troy, the townland still known as Castletroy, but as with Castle Matrix, I haven’t been able to find any records or history about it.  Perhaps it belonged to the Herberts long ago?   Love, Liz



        2009/4/3 <johnsouttar@...>

        Hi all - I still get your e-mails so I hope you will not mind me putting
        this before you as I would be most interested in your comments - quite a
        lot of this has been discussed or touched on by the group here. You are
        the experts and it seems quite relevant at present particularly the black
        god/king (about a quarter way down). It may be a bit of a trawl but it
        does explain much about our Dr Dee (Ddu):

        So let us look at the clues. Shakespeare, Tudor Architecture, Poetry,
        Theatre, Magicians like John Dee, a Black God, Wool. Who lives in a house
        like this?

        The Welsh Bards give an early clue. If Welsh poetry does not appeal one
        can skim down to Black god but much of interest is written between the
        lines. The sixth century legend of Taliesin starts off the Arthurian saga
        around which courtly life was often based, and Merlin like Welsh magicians
        tolerated:

        8 Taliesin, or The Critic Criticised.

        ii. (M)unc dutigirn — (in his time flourished Tal., etc.)

        iii. (M)ailcun King of Gwyneò etc.

        iv. (A)dda the son of Ida etc.
        It is the second entry which concerns us. The Editors of
        this paragraph have all printed (T)unc Dutigirn, under-
        standing " Then Dutigirn, at that time ", and so making
        this singularly named hero a contemporary of Ida of
        Northumbria. And " there you are " with proof positive
        that Taliesin and his fellow bards (named in paragraph ii.)
        lived in the sixth century ! Prima facie the case looks
        conclusive. But things are not always what they seem.
        Note that the other three paragraphs begin with a proper
        name, followed by words which fix their identity. If
        Dutigirn is a proper name, nothing follows to tell us who
        he was. If on the other hand we read " (M)unc, du tigirn "
        {niger rex) it is the epithet of a B]ack King we know,
        and the entry is on all fours with the other three. Who
        then was " Munc, the Black King"? He was Magnus'
        King of the Black Gentiles — the " gentiles nigri " of the
        Annales Cambrie, and the cenheèloeè duon of Brut y
        Tywysogion. The Norse icore hlach mail, just as Edward,
        the Black Prince did, hence the epithet " black " in both

        Dee mentions a Magnus. Is he perhaps recreating these characters around
        himself, or part of an ancient magic circle perhaps? I am interested in
        this black king. The ‘liber niger’ or black book is the list of the
        Knights of the Garter compiled in Henry V111’s reign. There is also a
        contemporaneous Black Book of Venus.

        Next we can find the famous Ddu (Black) family immortalised. Harri Ddu,
        Sir Harry Ddu etc. Sir Harry Ddu was a Crusader and Knight of the Grand
        Cross. His name was followed by the epithet (Niger) as was Sir Eliadyr Ddu
        (Niger) Knight of St John of Jeusalem. They were Welsh and wore black
        armour, but some say the black refers to the fact that they had raven
        coloured hair like many Welsh people. Others see an African origin. The
        coasts of Wales were constantly pillaged by the black Norse – slavers from
        North Africa. One must bear in mind that ‘Harry’ is the nickname of many
        of the monarchs named Henry. We still have a Prince Harry. Here is some
        curious 15th century Welsh poetry on the enigma:

        Lled-Ddychan A Semi-Satire
        I Harri Gruffudd o Euas to Harri Gruffudd of Euas [4]
        Y du hydr o’r Deheudir, The brave, black (haired man) from the Deheudir
        (south),
        Da ei lun mewn du o lir. Fine is his appearance in black-a-lyre (liripipe
        / headdress?).
        Llew du fal dy ddillad wyd, You are a black lion, (black) like your clothes,
        Lliw nid &#40605; llai no dulwyd. (Your) colour will not turn less than
        grey-black.
        Harri Gruffudd, grudd y gras, Harri Gruffudd, (he of) graceful appearance,
        Hydd a llywydd holl Euas. The stag and lord of all Euas.
        Ysgw&#12539;r, dan goler gwiw, (He is) the most exalted squire (under a
        fitting collar),
        Ucha’sydd i’ch oes heddiw. You will ever find in this age today.
        Dy fonedd di a fynnai Your (noble) descent would have it
        Dy roi’n aur gyda’th dri nai. That you were given as gold with your three
        nephews.
        Nid anos yt, myn Dwynwen, By Dwynwen, it would not be more difficult for
        you to bear
        Dwyn aur nog ysbardun wen. a gold spur than a silver one.
        Enaid Euas, i&#58142; diwael, You are the life of Euas and Gwent,
        excellent lord,
        A Gwent wyd, a fu gynt hael, (You), who were once generous,
        Ac weithian yn gywaethog And are now rich,
        Yn troi megis daint yr og. Have become hard like the teeth of a harrow.
        Ys da &#373;r wyd, nid oes drai (Although) it is true that you are a good
        man - your supply of
        wine
        Am win, ond na cheir mwnai. Never falters – money is never given (from
        your hand).
        Mi a gawn yma gennyd I would be (freely) given here by you
        Y llyn rhudd megis llanw rhyd. The red drink like the flow at a ford,
        Ni chawn o’ch arian ychwaith, (Yet) I would not be given (a penny) from
        your purse either,
        Na dim wrth fyned ymaith. Nor anything (else) when I departed.
        Herod gynt, Harri, od gwn, I was once your herald, Harri, verily,
        A chywyddol iwch oeddwn. And your poet.
        Mwy nid hawdd, er amnaid teg, (Yet) now it is not (an easy task) (although
        a seemly beck),
        Moli g&#373;r mal y garreg. To give praise to a (miserly) man who is like
        to a stone.
        Cloi dy dda, caledu ‘dd wyd, (You) lock your goods; you are becoming a
        hard (man),
        Caledach no’r clo ydwyd. You are harder than a lock.
        Diemwnd ar wydr wyd yma, You are a diamond on glass here,
        Dur ar y dur i roi da. Steel upon steel in giving of goods.
        Mae esgus, ystrywus drwg, You have an excuse (a) (crafty scheme),
        Gennyd i w&#375;r Morgannwg, For the men of Morgannwg - (Glamorgan)
        Bod yt (ni wn na bai dau) That you possess (how do I know that you have
        not twice the number?)
        Ddwsin o brydyddesau, A dozen poetesses,
        Ac ar fedr, digrif ydwyd, And (then) with skill, amusing as you are,
        Harri, eu gwaddoli ‘dd wyd. Harri, you endow them.
        Medd Gwladus, drwsiadus sud, Gwladus says, (in her) fashionable manner,
        Haul Lyn Nedd, hael iawn oeddud. (She) the sun of Glyn Nedd, that you were
        very generous.
        Medd y gl&#38753; a omeddwyd, The gl&#38753; (bards), who were refused,
        Mab y crinwas Euas wyd. Say that you are the miser of Euas.
        Eich gwledd a roddwch i gl&#38753;, You give your feast to the gl&#38753;,
        A’ch rwmnai, a chau’r amner; And your Spanish wine, and (then) close the
        purse;
        A’ch clared &#31281; i’ch clerwyr, And your claret goes to your clerwyr
        (bards),
        8
        A’ch medd, a gomedd y gw&#375;r. And your mead, (but then you) refuse the
        said men.
        Gofyn a wnei gefn y nos You ask late at night
        Gan cywydd gan gainc eos. For a hundred cywyddau to the tune of the
        nightingale.
        Galw cerdd Ddafydd ap Gwilym Calling for Dafydd ap Gwilym’s poem,
        A bwrdio ynn heb roi dym. And (then) mocking us (by) giving us nothing (in
        return).
        Harri, os o ddifri ‘dd wyd Harri, if you (remain) in earnest
        Heb roddi, hwya’ breuddwyd; Without giving, (I’m afraid that) you (remain)
        in (our) longest dream;
        Os cellwair, hwyr y cair ced, If (you) mock (a long time will pass before
        a gift is given),
        Oera’ cellwair yw colled. The worst (type of) mockery is loss.
        Dywaid ti, pam nad wyt da? (Prey), tell (me now), why are you not well?
        Dy ddewrdad ydoedd wrda. Your brave father was a noble man,
        A da fu Fawd, di-fai ferch, And (so was) Maud, faultless girl,
        A wnaeth roddion, nith Rydderch. Who gave gifts, a niece to Rhydderch.
        Gweithydd f&#29855; ar gywydd g&#373;r, I was a craftsman of the praise poem,
        Ac weithian brawd bregethwr. And (I am) now a preaching friar.
        Y sawl a glywo fy s&#58142;, Whoever shall hear these words,
        Ef a rydd fwy o roddion. Shall himself become a more copious giver of gifts.
        Br&#31319; Galed brin y gelwynt The nobility of the Men of the North of old
        Bonedd Gw&#375;r y Gogledd gynt; Used to call Brân Galed a miser;
        Taliesin, ddewin ddiwael, (Yet) Taliesin, (the) excellent magician,
        A’i troes yn well no’r tri hael. Made him more generous than the Tri Hael.
        Un fodd &#12539;hwnnw fyddaf, I will be in the same mould as he -
        Troi’n well dy natur a wnaf. I will improve your temperament.
        O throi gyda’r bregeth rwydd, If (you) improve with this eloquent sermon,
        Cei fawrglod acw, f’arglwydd. You will receive great praise yonder, my lord.
        Oni throi, neu’th ddirywiwyd, If you do not improve, or worsen,
        Collaist a roist, callestr wyd. You will have lost (all) that which you
        gave - you are a flintstone.

        LXXXIII 97
        Marwnad Harri Ddu o Euas The Death of Harri Ddu of Ewyas
        Doe darfu’r Deau derfyn, Yesterday the South’s frontier died,
        Dwrn Duw a roes dyrnod ynn. God’s fist gave us a blow.
        Daearen Duw a oeres, God’s earth turned cold,
        Dwyn g&#373;r oll a dynn ei gwres. taking a man completely drains away its
        warmth.
        Dyrnod hoedl drwy Went ydoedd, A mortal blow was it throughout Gwent,
        Dwyn Harri Ddu (dyn hardd oedd). taking Harri Ddu, he was a handsome man.
        Dyffryn Aur yn deffroi nos, The Golden Vale rouses night,
        Heb liw dydd, heb le diddos. without day’s colour, without a shelter.
        Euas gynt wrth lais ei gorn Euas (Ewyas Lacy) once had the sound of his horn;
        Ac Erging heb gyweirgorn. and Erging (Archenfield) is without a tuning-key.
        Saethwyd yma’r saith dinas, The seven cities were shot down here,
        Swydd Henffordd, Cliffordd a’r Clas. Herefordshire, Clifford and Glasbury.
        Beth a d&#31287; byth, o delir, What is a war-sloop worth, if it’s held,
        Belinger heb longwr hir? without a tall shipman?
        Bro Wy oedd hon, briwodd hi, This was the Vale of the Wye, it was wounded,
        Byd perygl bod heb Harri. a world of danger is it without Harri.
        Wylo mae llin Wiliam Llwyd, William Llwyd’s line is weeping, [i]
        9
        Aml dolef am lew dulwyd. a repeated cry for a dark lion.
        Nid wyf syth na da fy s&#31287; I’m not erect nor well-paid
        Wedi ef, na diofal. after him, nor carefree.
        Fy nghariad, fy nghynghorwr, My love, my counsellor,
        Fy llyfr gynt, fy llaw fu’r g&#373;r. my book before, the man was my hand.
        Dug fi at y Dug of Iorc He brought me to the duke of York
        Dan amod cael deunawmorc. on the condition of getting eighteen marks. [ii]
        Fy ngwaith fu, eilwaith foliant, My work was (more praise)
        Fwrw gwawd hwn i frig y tant. to cast praise of him to the top of the string.
        Dengair o gellwair i gyd Ten words all joking [iii]
        Fu rhof a Harri hefyd. were also between me and Harri.
        O dywedais, da ydoedd, If I said (he was good)
        Na r&#58137; ei aur, anwir oedd; that he didn’t give his gold, it wasn’t
        true.
        Ni r&#58137; gawn er a genynt He wouldn’t give straw for what the
        minstrels of shit
        Gl&#38753; y dom, bwngleriaid &#375;nt; would sing, they’re bunglers.
        Ac i’r gw&#375;r gorau eu gwaith But to men of the best work
        Ar unrhodd y rh&#58137; anrhaith. by a single gift he gave wealth.
        Rhydd fu’r Cwrtnewydd i ni, Liberal was Newcourt for us,
        A’r Drehir, dra fu Harri. and Longtown, while Harri lived.
        G&#373;r oedd ef fal Gwrthefyr, He was a man like Gwrthefyr, [iv]
        G&#7885;rau ’&#31281; law i Gaerl&#375;r. the best with his hand as far as
        Leicester.
        Gwayw ‘mrwydr i Gymru ydoedd, He was a sword in battle for Wales,
        Gard aur ysgw&#12539;riaid oedd. he was the golden guard of the squires.
        Cwrtiwr oedd y milwr main, A courtier was the lean soldier,
        Cryfaf o Iorc i Rufain. the strongest from York to Rome.
        Ni thrwsiodd maen na throsol, No one ever trimmed stone or sceptre,
        Ni bu neb na bai’n ei &#58140;. there was none who wouldn’t be behind him.
        Saeth fawr a saethai f’eryr, A great arrow would my eagle shoot,
        Saethu ‘mlaen seithmil o w&#375;r. shooting before seven thousand men.
        Nid &#31281; i’w naid un dyn iach, Not one healthy man would match his leap,
        Nid oedd ieithydd du ddoethach. there wasn’t a black linguist wiser.
        Ni roes Iesu rasusoed Jesus of gracious life never put
        Un lliw ar &#373;r well erioed. a better colour on a man before.
        Harri Gruffudd a guddiwyd, Harri Gruffudd was buried,
        Heno, Dduw, dwyn hwn ydd wyd. tonight, God, you’re taking him.
        Heddiw ydd aeth o’i haddef Today the stag of Newcourt went from his home
        Hydd y Cwrtnewydd i nef. to heaven.
        Dwyn o’r coed a wn&#31281; &#373;r call A wise man would take an oak from
        the wood
        Derwen a dodi arall. and put another in place.
        Mae un o’i w&#375;dd yma i ni, There is one from his wood here for us,
        Mal yw pur, Mil ap Harri. he too is pure, Miles ap Harri,
        Impyn cadr a’m pen-ceidwad, a bold scion and my chief keeper.
        Impied ef gampau ei dad. Let him engraft his father’s deeds.
        Gw&#375;dd ieuanc a wedd&#12539;n, I’d pray for young wood,
        Gadu hil yn goed i hwn. That progeny would be left as his wood!

        The Ddu’s were ancestors of Blanche Parry, Elizabeth’s lady in waiting, or
        lady of the bedchamber perhaps. Elizabeth I had Welsh connections on both
        sides – her father through Henry Tudor and her mother the Countess of
        Pembroke.

        Guto’r Glyn
        (flourishing 1430s-1493) Guto’r Glyn [1] wrote at least 124 poems, of
        which the 5 dedicated to one of his patrons, Harri Ddu, Blanche’s
        great-grandfather, are given below. He was a highly regarded itinerant
        bard between the 1430s and 1493 who regularly visited a circuit of the
        houses of the nobility, including Newcourt. He was also well received by
        several members of the clergy, including two Deans of Bangor and the Abbot
        of Shrewsbury. He was noted for being able to praise his patrons, for his
        descriptions, for his satire and for his humorous asides which are well
        illustrated in this selection. He
        followed the precepts laid down by Taliesin in praising his patron’s
        ability in warfare and largesse at home. The elegy on the death of Harri
        Ddu is a superb example of his skill in this poetic form. Guto’r Glyn’s
        home was in Glyn Ceiriog, or perhaps Glyndyfrdwy, Merioneth, from where he
        journeyed
        around Powys, Anglesey, Gwynedd and Gwent. He also occasionally worked as
        a drover driving sheep for sale in England. Newcourt and Raglan Castle,
        which he described as a fair rock-built court, were at the furthest extent
        of his circuit. Indeed, one of his most important patrons was Sir William
        Herbert, Earl of Pembroke (1st creation) whose rise to power he witnessed.
        Harri Ddu was steward of Ewyas Lacy / Longtown from March 1460 and Guto’r
        Glyn confirms this by describing him as the arm of Longtown. Guto’r Glyn
        further states that it was Harri who had brought him to Richard Duke of
        York, for they travelled together in the Duke’s retinue to France in 1441
        [2]. The Duke was executed in December 1460. Subsequently, Sir William
        Herbert, and Harri Ddu, fought at the Battle of Mortimer’s Cross in 1461.
        Harri was awarded an annuity in 1464/5. Guto’r Glyn sang for King Edward
        IV, whose collar and badge he wore as an indentured soldier, and he
        probably entertained the young Henry Tudor at Raglan Castle in 1462.
        Despite Guto’r
        Glyn’s Yorkist sympathies, he was recorded, in 1468, as entreating Sir
        William to focus on uniting Wales into a single country. In 1469 Guto’r
        Glyn lost two patrons when both brothers, the Earl of Pembroke and Sir
        Richard Herbert of Coldbrook, were executed. Guto’r Glyn himself died in
        1493 at
        the Abbey of Valle Crucis where, ill and blind, he was cared for by Abbot
        Dafydd ab Ieuan ab Iorwerth. Although Guto’r Glyn probably knew Harri for
        several years before 1441, his surviving poems dedicated to Harri Ddu ap
        Gruffudd must date between 1452, when Newcourt was built, to
        Harri’s death which was probably soon after 1477. Harri’s son, Miles, died
        in 1488

        We can find a black god in this poem to Harri:

        LXXV 95 [5]
        I Harri Ddu o Euas Harri the Black of Ewyas
        Lle nid da lliw onid du, Where there’s no good colour but black,
        Llwyddiant ar bob dyn lliwddu! success to every man of black colour!
        Gorau lliw dan gwr lleuad The best colour under the edge of the moon
        A roes Duw ar &#373;r o stad. did God put on a man of status.
        Dewin wyf, di-wan afael, I’m a diviner, strong of grasp,
        Duw ei hun oedd &#373;r du hael. God himself was a generous black man,
        A da fydd, dragywydd dro, and good for all time will be
        Y fernagl a fu arno. the Veil of Veronica that was on him [i].
        A melfed (Pwy nis credai?) And velvet will be (who wouldn’t believe it?)
        Muchudd du fydd a di-fai. jet black and faultless.
        Sidan a phupur, os adwaen, Silk and pepper, if I know,
        Y sabl oll y sy o’u blaen. the sable is all the best of them.
        Gorau unlliw graeanllwydd The single best colour of the rich gravel
        Gan &#373;r yw y gwinau rhwydd. for a man is the generous black. (jet?)
        Ni chair er ofn na charu No brave one is found brave, for fear or love,
        Un dewr dewr ond o &#373;r du. except a black man.
        Hawddamor, Ifor afael, Greetings (an Ifor in grip) [ii]
        Herwydd hyn, Harri Ddu hael! because of this, openhanded Harri the Black!
        Gwirfab o feirch ac arfau, A true son of Gruffudd, with horses and weapons,
        Gruffudd yw’r carw muchudd mau. is my jet stag.
        &#372;yr Harri, wewyr hirion, Grandson of Harri (of long spears,
        Gyrrwr sias ac orwyr Si&#58142;. a driver of the chase) and great-grandson
        of Siôn.
        Henyw ef&#12539; hen fo’i wallt, He’s descended, may his hair be old,
        Harri o rin hoyw Reinallt. Harri, from the bright virtue of Rheinallt.
        Haws caru lliw du lle d&#40605; Easier to love the colour black where he
        comes
        Na charu orls a chwrel. than to love fur and coral.
        Pob lliw’n y byd, cyngyd call, Every colour in the world, prudent thought,
        A ’&#31319; ddu o iawn ddeall. turns black if rightly understood.
        Llyna fal y dyfalwn Behold, just as I made the comparison,
        Garw du, perl gywirdeb hwn. a black stag, he’s the pearl of faithfulness!
        Nid dau-eiriog naturiol, Not two-tongued by nature,
        Ni thry’r un a wnaeth ar &#58140;. one who won’t afterward reverse what he
        did.
        Ni baidd neb, un wyneb Nudd, No one attacks (of the same fame as Nudd)
        At Henri ’&#31337; gwayw tanrudd. Harri (Henry) with the fire-red spear.
        5
        Och ym ar dir a chymell Alas for me when pushed to it,
        O bu &#373;r &#12539;bwa well; if there was a better man with a bow,
        Na chystal, ynial annerch, or as good, wild greeting,
        Ar y maen mawr er mwyn merch. with the great stone, for a girl’s sake.
        I minnau, gwarau gwiwraen, I too, backs of worthy black,
        Y bu air mawr er bwrw maen. had a great reputation for stone-throwing.
        Hiroedl a fo i Harri Long life to Harri!
        Y sydd i’m diswyddaw i. who deposes me!
        A hefyd, fy niwyd n&#38753;, And furthermore, my diligent lord,
        O gorfydd moes ac arfer, if manner and custom prevail,
        Gwell y g&#373;yr ef gwallaw gwin he knows better how to pour wine
        Garbron no gw&#375;r y brenin. in one’s presence than the king’s men.
        Hirbell y catwo felly, Long may he remain so,
        Harri, fraich y Drehir fry! Harri, the arm of Longtown up there! [iii]
        Dyro iddo, Duw rwyddael, Give to him, God free and generous,
        Fywyd hir i fab Fawd hael, long life to the son of generous Mawd,
        A chadw o Grist iechyd a gras and Christ preserve the health and grace
        Angel du yng ngwlad Euas. of a black angel in the land of Euas (Ewyas).
        [i] Traditionally Saint Veronica wiped Christ’s face with her veil on His
        way to the Cross; her Veil
        received the imprint of Christ’s face. Perhaps Guto’r Glyn’s reference is
        to a painting which
        may have hung either in the chapel at Newcourt or possibly in Bacton Church.
        [ii] Harri is compared to Ifor Hael, the generous patron of the bard
        Dafydd ap Gwilym.
        [iii] Longtown, an alternative name for Harri’s district of Ewyas Lacy.
        LXXVII 96

        And I notice the rhyming couplets in the Welsh. Poems that could be
        remembered down the ages until written down by someone (as was Taliesin by
        Geoffrey of Monmouth, imperfect in his Welsh but with the vision that it
        should be preserved and made accessible to us)

        There are nine Welsh bardic poems that refer to members of Blanche Parry’s
        family. One poem, by Guto’r Glyn, gives the family’s definitive pedigree:
        Sion (John) &#8594; Harri &#8594; Gruffudd &#8594; Harri Ddu &#8594; Miles
        ap Harri &#8594; Henry Myles.
        The bards concerned are:
        Guto’r Glyn
        Gwilym Tew
        Hwel Dafi (Howel)
        Huw Cae Llwyd
        Lewys Morgannwg
        Welsh poetry is not as widely known as it should be and its importance in
        providing primary evidence concerning Blanche’s family has not previously
        been appreciated. The songs of the bards, which were often accompanied on
        a harp, were part of the culture of Blanche’s family. Those in attendance
        heard the poems at Raglan Castle, where there were resident bards, and at
        Newcourt itself, a house which was a part of the bardic circuit. Many
        bards were involved but those with specific references to Blanche’s
        immediate family were Guto’r Glyn, who was flourishing from 1430s-1493,
        Gwilym Tew 1460-1480, Hywel Dafi 1450-1480, Huw Cae Llwyd 1431-1504, and
        Lewys Morgannwg 1520-1565 [1]. In manuscript form the following songs /
        poems are written in 15th-16th century Welsh.

        The patrons of the bards were all-important. These included the families of
        Herbert, Stradling, and the Vaughans of Tretower, as well as Blanche’s
        family.

        Sir William Herbert was pre-eminent among these patrons. He was the son of
        Sir William ap Thomas of Raglan and Gwladys, daughter of the Dafydd Gam
        mentioned by William Shakespeare in Henry V. Their effigies can still be
        seen in Saint Mary’s Priory Church, Abergavenny. Sir William was,
        therefore, the half-brother of Sir Roger Vaughan of Tretower. In 1459 he
        married Anne Devereux. Sir William had been captured in France in 1450 at
        the Battle of Formigny and presumably ransomed. He was knighted soon after
        and was able to start rebuilding Raglan Castle with the proceeds of the
        cross-Channel trade, including Gascon wine, that he shipped to Bristol. He
        had evidently not decided on his political allegiance as he did not fight
        for the Yorkist cause at Ludford Bridge in October 1459. He was rewarded
        for this by the government
        of the Lancastrian King Henry VI by being made Sheriff of Glamorgan and
        Constable of Usk Castle in 1460. However, Richard Duke of York was
        executed in December 1460 after his defeat at the Battle of Wakefield. His
        son was Edward Earl of March, soon to be King Edward IV, and the most
        powerful of the marcher lords. Herbert joined him in time to be so
        instrumental in the decisive Yorkist victory at the Battle of Mortimer’s
        Cross in Herefordshire in 1461, that he was created Baron Herbert of
        Raglan. In 1462, the year he became a Knight of the Garter, Henry Tudor,
        later King Henry VII, became his ward. Herbert consolidated North Wales
        for King Edward IV and was rewarded by being made Chief Justice of North
        Wales in 1467. In 1468 the value of his military support was recognised
        when King Edward created him the Earl of Pembroke (1st creation).
        Surviving accounts show that when he was not on official or military
        duties William Herbert was at Raglan Castle throughout the late 1450s and
        1460s. The bard Guto’r Glyn entertained him there, describing the Great
        Tower which stands above all other buildings.
        Herbert rebuilt the gatehouse and laid out new courtyards on a magnificent
        scale, the bard Dafydd Llwyd describing the castle as having a hundred
        rooms filled with festive fair [3]. However, William Herbert’s acumen for
        being on the winning side finally deserted him in July 1469 when he was
        defeated at the Battle of Edgecote and then executed by the Earl of
        Warwick. He was buried in Tintern Abbey. His brother Sir Richard Herbert
        of Coldbrook, also a patron of the bards, was beheaded at the same time
        and is buried in Saint
        Mary’s, Abergavenny in the place Sir William in his Will had chosen for
        himself. One of the earl’s three known illegitimate sons was William
        Herbert of Troy who married, secondly, Blanche the daughter of Simon
        Milborne and sister of Alice who married Henry Myles. Subsequently,
        Blanche, Lady Troy became Princess Elizabeth’s Lady Mistress.

        Harri Ddu was related to the Herberts. But the Sir William Herbert whose
        daughter Mary married Dee’s son Arthur at an early age is Sir William
        Herbert of St Julians in Wales. And a look at him shows the connection
        with Dee’s wool trade background, and the budding navy of that time. Dee
        lived next door to him and after his death sent his servant to care for
        his widow according to the diary.

        According to Sir Walter's will (1550) he had a ship called "James" that he
        bequeathed to his second son George, which fact proves that the Herberts
        of St. Julians had then already realised the trading chances offered by
        the river Usk and were on their way gathering capital.
        When Sir George and Sir Walter rode away to wars, St. Julians was being
        looked after by their wives, Sir George's wife Sibylla, then Sir Walter's
        first wife Mary, daughter of Sir William Morgan of Pencoed, and later by
        his second wife Cecely.
        We know nothing about the characters or looks of these women; we can only
        imagine that they, like so many other ladies of the period, in castles and
        manor houses, became the actual householders, watchful and thrifty, giving
        all their time and energy to the economical running of the house and
        estate. They must have had servants, of course: in the house itself
        servant girls of all kinds, possibly a housekeeper, and a nurse to look
        after the children, as well as a wet-nurse. There may have been personal
        maids and laundresses, a cook or two and for the estate a steward, a
        gardener, stable-men and occasional workers. The ladies had to keep an eye
        on the steward as he hired the servants once every year. The servants had
        wages, board and lodging, but also a clothing allowance. Cloth had to be
        bought either yearly or more often. Then there was the spinning and
        weaving, the dressmaking, the embroidering, the storing of foodstuffs,
        making of preserves. Milk, butter and cheese came from the different
        tenants around, fish out of the river Usk. There was not a lot of
        furniture, yet; chairs were still unusual. But Cecely had at least two
        feather beds, as she bequeathed them in her will to her two nieces.
        There were three children in Sir Walter's house: William, George and
        Miles. We do not know which of the parents died first; we only know that
        Sir Walter must have lived past the year 1550. He had been High Sheriff of
        Monmouthshire, that is why we can think him comparatively wealthy.
        Sir Walter's eldest son, William, became sheriff in 1553 and M.P. in 1555.
        It was natural that he was elected to the Parliament, being a member of a
        notable family. There is no reason to suspect that he would have used any
        disreputable methods to be elected - a lamentably usual state of affairs
        at the period. (16)
        It would be interesting to know for certain what Sir William's religious
        views were, as this was the time of temporary return to Catholicism during
        the reign of Mary I. There is one hint towards at least a tolerant
        attitude: he arranged the marriage - most marriages of the time were
        indeed arranged - of his son William to the daughter of William Morgan of
        Llantarnam, head of one of the foremost Catholic families of
        Monmouthshire. These two families, the Herberts and the Morgans rivalled
        for high office. Sir William Herbert was M.P. from 1555 to 1557, William
        Morgan from 1553 to 1554. The rivalry continued during the lives of their
        sons, Sir William junior being M.P. 1584 and 1586 and Edward Morgan 1584
        to 1585, and 1586 to 1587.
        Sir William's brother George was the actual merchant of the family. He
        probably lived in Newport, however, not in St. Julians. At the period the
        trade was generally growing, it was worth having ships to carry hides and
        wool, even wheat, to Bristol at least if not further. The cloth and cattle
        trade attracted the Herberts as they had attracted many other families "on
        the make" since the end of the previous century. George Herbert's ships
        may have gone past St. Julians, up the river to Caerleon, as the fact that
        he had a cellar there seems to show. His father has bequeathed the "James"
        to him with "all manner of cabelle, anchors, roopes, tacklinge, guns and
        ordnynnce weapons". He also was the owner of "Le Steven" which brought
        cargoes of salt and wines from La Rochelle, and "Le Dragon" or "Green
        Dragon". (17)
        George was not very scrupulous in his dealings. His barque "The (Green)
        Dragon" "transgressed the Queen's regulations every time it left port,
        since its cargo was usually one of wheat carried down the Severn in trowes
        or barges from Gloucestershire and Herefordshire. This blatant evasion of
        customs tolls was common knowledge to Her Majesty's subjects in those
        parts, but not - by some inexplicable omission - to Her Majesty's Customs
        officials in Cardiff and Newport". (18) One can imagine the reason for the
        "inexplicable" ignorance of the officials. It must have been kept going by
        means George and other merchants knew only too well.
        In his will George Herbert bequeathed his ships and his cellar "in
        Carlyne", where he kept his salt to his nephew Sir William Herbert junior.
        He may have kept other things there as well, or in some other cellar in
        Caerleon. He did import wines, and they must have been stored somewhere.
        According to "The Monmouthshire Houses" by Fox-Raglan, the houses in the
        area often provided a cellar which was "accessible for the large cider
        barrels from outside, and with an inner door to enable their contents
        readily to reach the hall". (19) A similar arrangement may have existed in
        St. Julians as well.
        The third son of Sir Walter, Miles, died rather young, as his wife was a
        widow in 1568 already. Miles probably lived at Crindau, in his wife's
        home. However, his elder brother, William, bequeathed him in his will
        (which was already made in 1554) also "a tenement in the parish of St.
        Michael at Lanternam".
        We now come to the most interesting of the Herberts of St. Julians, Sir
        William the younger, who was born 1554. He was 13 years old when his
        father died in 1567. (20) He combined the roles of the intellectual and
        the practical man.
        Of Sir William's youth the National Dictionary of Biography tells that he
        studied under Laurence Humphrey, president of Magdalen College, Oxford,
        and must have been his private pupil. He was described by his friends as
        learned and 'of a very high mind'. His educational standard was the
        highest reached in the family so far, and the fact that he was given this
        chance shows that his father, Sir William the senior, understood the
        importance of education. In fact, the Herberts of St. Julians are even in
        this respect typical of the period. G. D. Owen writes: "Now that their
        (i.e. of the Welsh gentry) energies and natural turbulence were being
        canalised by the Government to more useful purposes, and the perquisites
        of office as well as influence and honours placed within their reach,
        something more than literacy was considered to be an indispensable
        condition for self-advancement and for the satisfactory performance of the
        many duties entrusted to them". (21) Sir William the junior later went
        even further in his educational zeal: he proposed to found a college,
        first in Ireland, in his own plantation area, then in Tintern.
        Sir William did marry very prudently, at least in regard to property.
        Florence's father William Morgan was one of the wealthiest landowners of
        Monmouthshire. Whether the marriage was indeed prudent in other respects,
        we do not know. In the 1580's the life of the Catholics became difficult,
        as they could even lose their lives in addition to paying large fines for
        recusancy. Sir William Herbert was a zealous Protestant all through his
        life. There may have been times of tension in the house. On the other
        hand, Florence may have recanted and accepted her husband's religious
        opinions. In any case, she had enough sorrow in her life without this kind
        of difficulty, as we shall see later on.
        One cannot help wondering, however, whether Sir William's Protestantism
        might have been of a rather calculated kind. In general, the Welsh were
        rather lukewarm towards religion at this period - some Catholic recusants
        being exceptions.
        Sir William was knighted in 1578 and became sheriff in 1580, M.P. in 1584
        and again 1586. In the latter year his life took another turn. Elizabeth I
        then approved the 'Articles' for the plantation of the lands in Ireland
        which had belonged to the Earl of Desmond, after the supression of the
        Desmond Revolt. (22) Sir William had probably some connections with others
        who took part in this new venture, through his activity as M.P. When the
        lord Deputy, Perrot, was dismissed, Sir William was one of the
        'undertakers' who came to take large allotments of forfeited land in
        Munster. Sir William was not like most of the landlords in Ireland. He had
        real sympathy with the Irish peasants - would this have been the result of
        his relationship with the Welsh peasants around St. Julians? - and he
        tried to keep their rents reasonably limited. He also denounced the other
        planters for their tyranny and he seems to have thought the world of his
        Monmouthshire men whom he would have liked to bring to replace the English
        garrison. His Protestant zeal induced him to try to make converts among
        the Irish population. He even had parts of the Anglican service translated
        into Irish. All this had the effect that the English landlords in Ireland
        called him all kinds of names, laughed at his "fat conceit" and his "Welsh
        humour", as well as showed their contempt for his liking of the Irish.
        This spiritual battle came to a head in 1589, and Sir William returned to
        Wales, tired and disgusted. (23)
        Now Sir William turned back to more solitary occupations. Before going to
        Ireland he had already written Latin philosophical and theological works
        which did arouse attention and even admiration. One of his admirers was
        Thomas Churchyard who might even have stayed in St. Julians when
        travelling in the area. His "Worthiness of Wales" came out 1587, so he
        must have been in Monmouthshire before Sir William went to Ireland. He
        dedicated a poem to Sir William. However, Sir William's later son-in-law,
        Lord Herbert of Cherbury, was not as enthusiastic. He describes Sir
        William's work, called "A Letter written by a Catholicke to a Romaine
        Catholicke" (1586) as being "an Exposition upon the Revelations" but "some
        thought he was as far from finding the sense thereof as he was from
        attaining the philosopher's stone which was another part of his study".
        (24)
        In addition to his writing Sir William must have devoted some time to
        looking after his estate which was growing rapidly. Liswerry was granted
        by Elizabeth I to him in 1582, Lebenith was bought by him, he was
        appointed the chief steward of the manor of Rumney in 1583. (25) Besides
        he must have received some lands through his wife Florence. St. Julians
        alone consisted of 103 Welsh acres - within the manor of Carlion -
        besides, there were 24 Welsh acres of land and pasture "in Cawldrey" and
        "divers messuages, lands" etc. in Tintern, Newport, Stowe and Dyffryn".
        Sir William's character was on the inflexible side, which fact finally led
        to tragedy. According to Prosapia Herbertorum he would not keep cats to
        combat the rats which were infesting the house - we know that the banks of
        the Usk are still troubled by rodents - but used poison instead. He put it
        "upon Cards upon the Shelves and other places of his Study. It so happened
        on a time that the two young Lads came in the father all that time being
        intent upon his Study and playing tbout the Roome they perceived the Rats
        Cand (sic!) which they indeed thought was Sugar Candy. So as both of them
        eate thereof and carried the card unto their father who became affrighted
        aske (sic!) them what became of the Rats Cand that was within it the
        pretty Babes tould their fiather they eate it astonisht he went
        immediately … to work with Oil of Olive Butter milk and what he had ready
        …"
        Nothing helped, and his two sons died. "Inexpressible was the Sorrow of
        the parents. Lamentable were the cryes of Seruants, and condoling of the
        family and friends for this great loss which in especiall manner wrought
        upon their dear Mother that she was well nigh distracted to the day of her
        death". We can imagine the scene very well: the commotion, weeping and the
        sense of loss.
        The same source tells about the child who was left, Mary. She may have
        been older than the two boys; we know only that she was born in 1578, when
        her father died in 1593, she was about 15. As Welshmen generally, Sir
        William also was very proud of his pedigree, firmly believing that he was
        of royal descent. (26) This belief rested, however, on very shaky
        foundation. (27) He seems to have impressed Churchyard in any case, who
        said in his poem dedicated to Sir William, that by right Raglan castle
        should have belonged to Sir William and not gone to another Herbert branch
        through female line. (28) After the death of his sons Sir William saw the
        future of his family in doubt. The only way to preserve the name and the
        estate intact was to bind Mary to marry another Herbert. This Sir William
        stated many times over in his will.
        According to the Prosapia Herbertorum "many were the suitors" of Mary. It
        is possible that she had a childhood sweetheart, the son of the famous Dr.
        Dee, the philosopher and alchemist whom her father knew well and with whom
        her father was studying alchemy in Mortlake, Surrey. (29) One suspects,
        however, that this may have been only a childish fancy, nothing more, as
        the children were both quite young then.
        But Mary was lucky - at least so it seems. She married the dashing, young
        beau of the time, Edward, Lord Herbert of Cherbury, who was a member of
        the family's Montgomeryshire branch and thus "a cousin". Lord Herbert of
        Cherbury writes in his Life: "I had not been many months in the University
        (i.e. Oxford) but the news was brought to me of my father's death. …
        Shortly after I was sent again to my studies in Oxford, where I had not
        been long but that an overture for a match with the daughter and heir of
        Sir William Herbert of St. Julians was made … Mary, after her father died,
        continued unmarried until she was one-and-twenty; none of the Herberts
        appearing in all that time, who, either in age or fortune, was fit to
        match her. About this time I had attained the age of fifteen, (30) and a
        match at last being proposed, yet, notwithstanding the disparity of years
        betwixt us, upon the eight-and-twentieth of February 1598 (or -9), in the
        house of Eyton . . . I espoused her".
        It is intriguing to think what kind of a marriage that was. Lord Cherbury
        only mentions Mary in passing. He may not have had much time for her,
        having so many interests and so many admirers. Women as individuals did
        not matter very much in any case, at that period. She did bear "divers
        children" to him, all in the early years of their marriage, because the
        last one, Edward, was born soon after Lord Cherbury had gone abroad.
        Perhaps his description of the decision to go abroad tells something of
        their relationship.
        He had suggested to her that she and he should make their property over to
        their sons, but Mary had refused. "I told her then, that I should make
        another motion to her; which was, that in regard I was too young to go
        beyond sea before I married her, she now would give me leave for a while
        to see foreign countries; howbeit, if she would assure her lands as I
        would mine, I would never depart from her. She answered, that I knew her
        mind before concerning that point, yet that she should be sorry I went
        beyond sea; nevertheless, if I would needs go, she could not help it".
        Lord Herbert of Cherbury went beyond sea, and very fast, satisfied that "I
        left her not only posterity to renew the family of the Herberts of St.
        Julians according to her father's desire to inherit his lands, but the
        rents of all the lands she brought with her". He also thinks that he had
        "lived most honestly with her".
        There was Mary, left alone, expecting her youngest child, with "divers
        others" running around her - or around their nurse.
        The people of Newport often fondly remember Edward Lord Herbert of
        Cherbury as the most glorious of all the Herberts of St. Julians. In
        popular books and articles are stories of his life in the mansion. To the
        writer of this article it seems highly improbable that he ever spent very
        long time there. Lord Herbert of Cherbury would never have wanted to stay
        in such a far-away district. Even the marriage ceremony was at Eyton -
        although it was customary to have it in the bridegroom's house - and soon
        after that he took his bride and his mother to Oxford, thereafter to
        London. He does mention St. Julians in his "Life" a couple of times, e.g.
        when he tells about riding from there to Abergavenny, at which occasion he
        bravely saved his servant from drowning in the Usk, but that is all.
        The surroundings of St. Julians must have been quiet and dull. Only a
        person fond of hunting and fishing might have enjoyed the country
        atmosphere. True, Caerleon was near - but what was Caerleon of the first
        half of the 17th century like? There cannot have been much company for an
        adventurous and philosophic "coxcombe" like lord Edward - or for a highly
        educated and civilised man of the world as he also was. Newport cannot
        have been any better. G. D. Owen says about Welsh towns in the Elizabethan
        age:
        "Unlike English towns … there was a singular absence of organised
        pageantry and presentation of mystery plays and interludes based on scenes
        from the Holy Scriptures. … Sometimes the soporific atmosphere of a Welsh
        town would be disturbed by the sudden appearance of a menagerie … it would
        be true to say that the townsmen relaxed or sought their entertainment in
        drinking with their boon companions". (31)
        Of course Lord Herbert of Cherbury was not one of the townsmen, but it has
        been known of noblemen that they did take part in the life of the towns in
        some way or other. Thinking of Lord Edward's character and interests, one
        cannot believe that he would have enjoyed the entertainments above
        described.
        It has been suggested, or that impression has been given, that he wrote
        his works in St. Julians. There certainly would have been peace for that
        kind of work and - there was Sir William's library. Perhaps he did write
        something there during his rare visits. But when?
        Lord Cherbury had property in Caerleon, e.g. in Jany Crane Street, "in
        right of Mary, his wife", and Le long y Backe, as well as freehold land
        "called Craig leche" and lands in "Lanvihangell ton y grose called Tir y
        castell coch", as the survey of Caerleon manor of the year 1622 tells us.
        In the survey of 1653 his name is still among the burgage holders and free
        tenants of Caerleon, although he had died five years before that.
        The house was of course inherited by his eldest son Richard and in turn by
        his grandson Edward. The latter died without issue, and the estate came
        into the hands of his widow's new husband, the earl of Inchiquin. The
        widow married a third time, however. Her last husband was Isaac George, a
        sea captain who lived at St. Julians after her death. (32) She was buried
        in Caerleon. (33) After Isaac George's death St. Julians was let to farm
        and finally sold - some time before 1772 - to Charles Van of Llanwern.
        (34)
        In these days the noisy modern world passes by St. Julians. The site of
        the chapel is buried somewhere under modern buildings, and the old porch
        is now squeezed almost out of existence. Caerleon Road stretches from
        Newport to Caerleon and is tarmac covered - so is the ancient London road
        that turns off from Caerleon Road about 300 yards from St. Julians towards
        the direction of Newport. In the time of the Herberts, the London road
        existed, but there was hardly anything else than a bridle path between St.
        Julians and Caerleon, and even that went round about. Skirting the hill it
        joined the old road going up to Christchurch, at Ashwell, and from there
        along the river bank to the old bridge of Caerleon at the spot where the
        Romans already had a bridge. Both of the Williams must have ridden their
        horses along the London road on their way to the Parliament and George
        must have used both the river and the bridle path on his way to his
        cellars in Caerleon. Travelling was difficult, except on horseback or by
        boat. In an ordinary way, the women did not move about very much. Perhaps
        Florence Herbert went home to Llantarnam sometimes, and perhaps to Ireland
        with her husband. Mary did go away - to marry.
        And what did they look like?
        Lord Herbert of Cherbury describes his own father: "… my father, whom I
        remember to have been black-haired and bearded, as all my ancestors of his
        side are said to have been, of a manly, or somewhat stern look, but
        withall very handsome and well compact in his limbs, and of a great
        courage …". It is only reasonable to assume that the branch which lived in
        St. Julians had the same good looks.
        By their blood the Herberts were Welsh, and it seems they instinctively
        adhered to the Welsh monarchs, the Tudors, as did many other Welshmen of
        the period. They also consciously admitted being Welsh. Lord Cherbury says
        he knew the Welsh language and we can guess the previous generations knew
        it even better. It would have been the language spoken in St. Julians,
        even by the master and mistress of the house, not to mention the servants
        who mostly must have been local people. Since the Act of Union (1536,
        1543) English was the language of legal procedure. However, a lot of Welsh
        had to be used in court proceedings, as the people of Monmouthshire were
        certainly Welsh-speaking in the 16th and 17th century, even until the
        19th. The officials had to be bi-lingual.
        To conclude: in the history of the Herberts of St. Julians one can see
        development from the military to the landowning officials and wealthy
        tradesmen, in fact the same development that was going on generally in
        Britain during the 16th and 17th centuries. One can also see clearly that
        they were "as actual as we are today".
        NOTES
        1. G. M. Trevellyan, "An Autobiography and other Essays". Longmans, 1949,
        P. 13.
        2. G. M. Trevellyan, English Social History (1955 ed), p. 151. Reference
        to Major General Barry's letter to Oliver Cromwell.
        3. Coxe, A Historical Tour of Monmouthshire I, p. 52.
        4. A note in Rev. W. J. Rees's English edition of the Book of Llandaff, p.
        483.
        5. Churchyard, "Worthiness of Wales", 1776 edition.
        6. Coxe, I, p. 79.
        7. Joseph Bradney, History of Monmouthshire, Vol. IV, part II, p. 300.
        8. Rev. E. J. Rees, Book of Llandaff, p. 484.
        9. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 294.
        10. Prospapia Herbertorum, MS written in the latter half of the 17th
        century, possibly by Thomas Herbert of Tintern.
        11. Glanmore Williams: The Welsh Church from the Conquest to the
        Reformation, p. 249.
        12. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 295.
        13. Dictionary of National Biography: "William Herbert acted 'probably at
        (Sir James) croft's suggestion (and) became an 'undertaker' ' for the
        plantation of Munster on 5 May 1586".
        14. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 295.
        15. Id. Bradney refers to Thomas Wright: History of Ludlow (1852), p. 383,
        but doubts this and thinks the rumours were perhaps exaggerated.
        16. G. D. Owen: Elizabethan Wales, pp. 33-35.
        17. J. W. Dawson: Commerce and Customs. Newport and Caerleon, p. 10.
        18. G. D. Owen, Elizabethan Wales, p. 132. Refers to PRO Exchequer Q.R.
        Special Commissions. 2895.
        19. Fox-Raglan: Monmouthshire houses, part II, p. 84.
        20. Dict, of Nat. Biogr.
        21. G. D. Owen, p. 198.
        22. Edmund Curtis: A History of Ireland, p. 199.
        23. A. H. Dodd: Studies in Stuart Wales, pp. 78-79.
        24. Life of Edward Lord Herbert of Cherbury, ed. by Sidney Lee.
        25. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, pp. 296-297.
        26. The Herberts traced their descent from a bastard of Henry I.
        27. See Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae, by George T. Clark,
        London 1886.
        28. Churchyard, ed. 1776.
        29. Life of Lord H. of Cherb., Sidney Lee's ed. 2, p. 22.
        30. Sydney Lee thinks he must have been 17 years old.
        31. G. D. Owen: Elizabethan Wales. pp. 105-106.
        32. Bradney, Vol. 1V, part II, p. 293.
        33. The Parish Registers of Llangattock-juxta-Caerleon: Elizabeth George,
        buried 25th Febr. 1756.
        34. Bradney, Vol. IV, part II, p. 299.
        Obs. The notes of the Wills are all from the collection of copies kept in
        Newport Ref. Libr.
        CAERLEON NET

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        There are several views of St Julians on the Newport Past Website.

        Here is a look around St Mary’s Chapel – the Herberts chapel. Mary is a
        recurrent name in their family:

        Historic Artefacts in St Mary's Church
        St Mary's Church contains a most interesting series of monuments,
        consisting chiefly of altar tombs, ten in number, bearing recumbent
        effigies, dating from the 13th to the 16tb century.
        (1) The earliest of these is the effigy of a very young man, clad in a
        hauberk and hood of chain mail, and a a long surcoat, his head reposing on
        cushions end his feet on a lion; the hands are placed together, and the
        whole figure, together with the slab on which it lies, is carved out of
        one solid balk of timber; this effigy is now placed on a trestle table
        made for the purpose in the Herbert chapel, and is believed to represent
        George de Cantelupe, who died 25 April, 1273, aged 20.
        (2 and 3) The next in order are two monuments of about the middle of the
        14th century: the first of these is an effigy of stone lying on a plain
        altar tomb within a panelled and traceried recess under one of the south
        windows of this chapel, and represents a knight in bascinet with hood and
        camail, a long surcoat, and legs encased in plate armour: the is identity
        of this figure is quite doubtful, but it perhaps represents Sir William
        Hastings, ob. 1349: the other monument is an altar tomb of the Decorated
        period on the opposite side of the chapel, at the back of the stalls, the
        sides of which are relieved with crocketed and canopied panelling, once
        contaimug statuettes, of which only one headless example now remains; the
        recumbent stone effigy is clad much as the preceding, and it seems
        tolerably certain that it represents Lawrence de Hastings, ob. 13 Aug.
        1348, and buried here.
        (4) In the centre of the Herbert Chapel stands an altar tomb of rough
        masonry cased on two sides and at the east end with slabs of sculptured
        alabaster, dating from the end of the 15th century and once probably
        forming part of the screen above the high altar. The side slabs consist of
        shallow canopied niches containing figures; that at the foot represents
        the "Annunciation" with a censing angel on either side. On the tomb lie
        the recumbent effigies of Sir William ap Thomas, ob. 1446, and Gladys, his
        wife, daughter of Sir David Gam, ob. 1454. The male effigy is in plate
        armour, and wears a collar of SS. At the head of the figures are large
        canopies of unequal site, brought from elsewhere, and probably also
        portions of the great altar screen.
        (5) Parallel with the foregoing, and below the arch opening from the
        Herbert chapel to the choir 18 another large altar tomb of alabaster,
        surrounded or nearly the whole of the two sides with elegant canopied
        niches, Surmounted by an embattled creating, and containing fifteen
        figures, twelve of which bear shields, the remaining three representing
        the Virgin and Child, St. Catherine and St. Margaret, and moat likely once
        at the foot of the tomb, both ends being now blank: on the Upper slab are
        the recumbent effigies of a knight and lady, much mutilated; the former is
        in plate armour, with a collar of alternate suns and roses, and the head
        resting on a helm with his crest, a sheaf of arrows: the lady is attired
        in a long robe and mantle and wears a rich necklace; at the heads of the
        figures are mutilated alabaster canopies, not, apparently, belonging to
        this monument: these effigies represent Sir Richard Herbert of Coldbrook,
        2nd son of Sir William ap Thomas, before mentioned; he fought valiantly on
        the Yorkist side at the battle of Edgecote or Banbury, 26 July, '459,
        where he 'was taken prisoner, and executed on the following day; Margaret,
        his wife, was the daughter of Thames ap Gryffydd.
        (6) In the south wall of the Herbert chapel, within a recess under a
        flattened ogees crocketed arch, is an altar tomb of alabaster, the front
        of which is adorned with nine double canopied niches, eight of which
        contain seated figures, and the central one a sculptured kneeling angel
        from some other structure: on the top of the tomb lies the recumbent
        effigy, bareheaded, of a man in plate armour, his head resting on a helm
        and his feet on a lion, and on the chamfered margin of the tomb is an
        inscription in black letter, only a portion of which, viz., the words
        "regni regis Henrici Octavi 2 cujus aia propitiatur Jes. Amen" are
        original. The figure, however, correctly represents Richard Herbert,
        Esquire, a natural son of Sir William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, ob.
        Sept.1510: on the arch above are the arms of Herbert, debruised with a
        baton arg., and impaling Cradock. At the back of the recess is a
        collection of figures carved in alabaster on three separate slabs: that in
        the centre depicts the "Coronation of the Virgin," and on either side are
        kneeling figures of three men in armour and a female, and beneath each
        figure a shield bearing the arms of Herbert and Cradock alternately; under
        the whole runs an embattled molding.
        (7) On the north side of the choir, under the arch between it and the
        Lewis chapel, are two small altar tombs placed end to end and projecting
        eastwards from the western pier. The one next the pier has been roughly
        built up, and bears a female effigy of freestone, only about 4 ft. 6 in.
        long, clad in a close-fitting robe, the head, now incomplete, resting on
        two cushions and the feet on some animal: the figure, which is of much
        earlier date than the present church, is conjectured to represent Eva,
        daughter of William Marshall, Earl of Pembroke, and wife of William de
        Brosse, lord of Abergavenny: She died in 1246. The tomb, forming a
        continuation of the preceding is of hard gritstone, and appears to have
        been made up from different sources; the north side displays three square
        panels with quatrefoils enclosing plain shields; on the opposite side are
        five square panels also containing plain shields, and above, on the margin
        of the slab, a molding of roses: the recumbent effigy is also one of a
        female, 4ft. 3 in. in length, with the head on a cushion and the feet on a
        dog; the figurs is clad in wimple and veil and an ample mantle, and the
        upraised hands hold what was probably a heart: nearly the whole of the
        body below the hands is covered by a long shield, charged in relief with
        three fleurs-de-lis, arranged 2 and 1: these were the arms of de
        Cantelupe, and the figure is held to represent Eva de Cantelupe, widow of
        William de Cantelupe, and baroness of Abergavenny in her own right; she
        died in 1257, and was the mother of George de Cantelupe, whose wooden
        effigy has already been described.
        (8) In the north-east angle of the Herbert chapel, against the walls, is a
        rude attar tomb, on which lie the much injured recumbent effigies of
        Andrew Powell, a judge on the Brecon Circuit, 1615-35, and Margaret
        (Herbert), his wife, ob. c1641: the male effigy is attired in slashed
        doublet and breeches and a long gown, and wears a ruff: on the wall above
        the monument is an inscription on brass.
        (9) At the east end of the Lewis chapel, against the north wall, stands
        the quite unique monument of David Lewis, DCL, a native of Abergavenny,
        Principal of New Inn Hall and Jesus College, Oxford, and a Commissioner of
        the High Court of Admiralty, ob. 27 April 1584. The front of the tomb id
        divided into three panels by broad pilasters supporting flattened arches:
        the centre is filled by a large anchor and the words: "IOHN GILDON MADE
        THIS TOW ME "- within the left arch are three clasped books, and above
        them a skull, and round the whole a wreath or fillet, bearing the legend,
        "EN GLORIA MVNDI": in the other arch is a figure of the Sergeant-at-mace
        of the Court of Admiralty, bearing his official silver oar: at the head of
        the tomb are the arms of Wallis, the judge having been the son of the Rev.
        Lewis Wallis: the upperr slab of the tomb is large and massive, and has a
        super slab, on which lies the effigy of the judge, in his official habit
        and wearing a ruff and a flat round cap: the head rests on a book, and
        round the neck are three chains one below the other.
        (10) In the Herbert chapel, and against the back of the stall work, is a
        lofty and elaborate monument of Renaissance character, within which, under
        an arched recess, are figures of a man and woman kneeling face to face at
        a desk, and there is an inscription in Latin to William Baker esq. steward
        to Lord Ahergavenny, and Johanna (Vaughan),. his wife, sister of Dr. David
        Lewis, he died 30 Oct. 16--.
        There are other memorials in the church to Henry Maurice, ob. 30 July,
        1682, and to Lewis James, ob. 15 May, 1663;

        (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

      • johnsouttar@blueyonder.co.uk
        ... How interesting - perhaps that play or court is continually recreated. The Southwells are everywhere and so is Castle Matrix. My grandmother Helen Mary
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 5 12:37 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          > Hi Liz

          How interesting - perhaps that play or court is continually recreated.
          The Southwells are everywhere and so is Castle Matrix. My grandmother
          Helen Mary Herbert had the most aquiline nose as does my sister, and my
          aquiline father also had the jet black hair. But not all of them do, I
          have a red Herbert cousin. 'Herberts' was the family firm in the London
          Stock Exchange which shortly after their decision to take on an American
          partner, endured the shame of being hammered down (bankrupted). That was
          in the Sixties. I have seen the tree traced back (imaginatively) to Aeneas
          leaving Troy. There is one such tree on the internet, an American now. The
          Black King, or Jew, was I think James who with his mother Mary makes an
          appearance in the family at some point. They would not say Jesus, although
          the Templar Herberts might consider this their great secret, because such
          a blasphemous thought, true or not, would wipe them out. The Templars also
          wore black, but a black tunic under their armour. It is the colour of
          priests through the ages, and my father's cassock was a good example.

          I blame the bards. They are the ones who devise these flattering
          genealogies. Norman families
          like the Herberts are vain enough to pay to have them sung to them over
          supper. The Stuarts are quite different, or should one say vain in a
          different way, but clearly are another aristocratic family believing
          themselves to descend from Mary and given therefore a divine right to
          rule.

          As Herbert was happy for his daughter Mary to 'marry' Arthur Dee but later
          insisted she only marry a Herbert I therefore connect Dee to the family,
          and Blanche. The Ddu's side. The wool trade side perhaps, the literate
          side certainly. Dee might then be an anglicised version of Ddu. In which
          case I suggest that he had these same feelings about himself, possibly
          seeing this also in Talbot and his neighbour and not so distant a step is
          to speak with angels, talk to yourself, get put away as an embarrassment.

          John (-:

          My Dad used to say the Souttars are the illiterate branch of the Stouarts.
          The impoverished side I would say.
        • Liz Forrest
          Happy to chat with another distant cousin , I m guessing, John! Strangeness last night and this morning, about the stuff I was reading in a fiction book,
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 5 10:30 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Happy to 'chat' with another distant 'cousin', I'm guessing, John!  Strangeness last night and this morning, about the stuff I was reading in a fiction book, combining with my anagram investigations into names mentioned in it which I've just found out on radio news was about the time the earthquakes in Italy happened, and my brother's bus broke down outside a garage in a town with an Italian name in the States, but was told it could be fixed by tomorrow.  And now I gather Obama is in Rome.  Hoping they are being kind to the Afghan children found livng rough beneath Rome also and didn't frighten them.  The darkness may feel protective towards them, no matter the conditions.  Some turbulence here in the wind and rain.  Heading home now to the little ones and some sleep.  The book mentioned a talisman in the form of an eagle with wings spread wide, found with a mummy in Egypt, and the town mentioned in the news is l'Aquila.  Resonance being used for communication, or threads converging or ?  So sad for those there.  First attempt to write this wiped out somehow, so not as complete as before.  My apologies.  Love, Liz

            2009/4/5 <johnsouttar@...>

            > Hi Liz

            How interesting - perhaps that play or court is continually recreated.
            The Southwells are everywhere and so is Castle Matrix. My grandmother
            Helen Mary Herbert had the most aquiline nose as does my sister, and my
            aquiline father also had the jet black hair. But not all of them do, I
            have a red Herbert cousin. 'Herberts' was the family firm in the London
            Stock Exchange which shortly after their decision to take on an American
            partner, endured the shame of being hammered down (bankrupted). That was
            in the Sixties. I have seen the tree traced back (imaginatively) to Aeneas
            leaving Troy. There is one such tree on the internet, an American now. The
            Black King, or Jew, was I think James who with his mother Mary makes an
            appearance in the family at some point. They would not say Jesus, although
            the Templar Herberts might consider this their great secret, because such
            a blasphemous thought, true or not, would wipe them out. The Templars also
            wore black, but a black tunic under their armour. It is the colour of
            priests through the ages, and my father's cassock was a good example.

            I blame the bards. They are the ones who devise these flattering
            genealogies. Norman families
            like the Herberts are vain enough to pay to have them sung to them over
            supper. The Stuarts are quite different, or should one say vain in a
            different way, but clearly are another aristocratic family believing
            themselves to descend from Mary and given therefore a divine right to
            rule.

            As Herbert was happy for his daughter Mary to 'marry' Arthur Dee but later
            insisted she only marry a Herbert I therefore connect Dee to the family,
            and Blanche. The Ddu's side. The wool trade side perhaps, the literate
            side certainly. Dee might then be an anglicised version of Ddu. In which
            case I suggest that he had these same feelings about himself, possibly
            seeing this also in Talbot and his neighbour and not so distant a step is
            to speak with angels, talk to yourself, get put away as an embarrassment.

            John (-:

            My Dad used to say the Souttars are the illiterate branch of the Stouarts.
            The impoverished side I would say.


          • Terri Burns
            Hi John and Liz, Sorry to delay responding. . . I have been at a conference, and off-line. Printing this off now, and will respond tomorrow! Terri Liz, re: Hi
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 6 8:36 AM
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              Hi John and Liz,

              Sorry to delay responding. . . I have been at a conference, and off-line. Printing this off now, and will respond tomorrow!

              Terri


              Liz, re:

              Hi Terri and John and everyone else still around, Re black as `Ddu', I've learned locally that in Irish it is `dubh' pronounced as if an extended or double `oo' close to the English `dove' and as meaning `black' can also be interpreted as `darkness'. The Magdalene, as `the Lady of the Tower (Migdal), is also called the `Lady of the Doves', perhaps for more than one reason (communication and origin among them). It was supposedly the `Norse'
              who settled Dublin and named it `Dubh (black0 pool or fountain'. Re the `black God', I seem to remember that Robert Graves wrote much more about the`White Goddess', than the `Black Goddess' and nothing at all about `the Red Goddess'.


              This no doubt is coming in from left field, but re: your "Dubh" comments above and other comments in the archive (Dee/Dhu/Ddu etc, and River Dee as "Black River," some say, or not, some say) what thoughts would you have about any of this and the Tudor-era Demond - Ormond feud? (See archive on "Black Tom Butler, his mother Joan, and his cousin Eleanor" thread. "Black Tom"= Q Elizabeth's cousin Thomas Dubh Butler, who has "interesting" connections to the Boleyns and feuds with the Wizard Earl of Kildare.)

              Meanwhile just got another book, "Shakespeare was Irish", a follow-up of sorts to the "Green Cockatrice" book that made a similar argument. No, personally, I think there's not much of a chance at all that Shakespeare was the Irish poet William Nugent as these authors claim, but it is interesting to see them picking out the same sorts of evidence we were looking few some months back in talking about the Desmond-Ormond feud, and the cluster of events that bring Edward Kelley to John Dee's door. So in that roundabout way, they're also related to "Shakespeare's Green Garland."

              I've found another John Garland since the first of those articles was written, by the way. His name is spelled "John Garlonde" and he's in Ireland connected to this same cluster of people, just as Francis Garland disappears for a couple of years from Dee's diary.

              LVX,

              Terri
            • johnsouttar@blueyonder.co.uk
              Thanks Terri, I like Gutor Glyns alchemical recipe for us, and his: O bu ŵr Ebwa well; if there was a better man with a bow, Na chystal, ynial annerch, or
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 6 1:04 PM
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                Thanks Terri,

                I like Gutor Glyns alchemical recipe for us, and his:

                O bu ŵr Ebwa well; if there was a better man with a bow,
                Na chystal, ynial annerch, or as good, wild greeting,
                Ar y maen mawr er mwyn merch. with the great stone, for a girlfs sake.
                I minnau, gwarau gwiwraen, I too, backs of worthy black,
                Y bu air mawr er bwrw maen. had a great reputation for stone-throwing.
                Hiroedl a fo i Harri Long life to Harri!

                William H is also a great stone thrower, one said to end up mysteriously
                in Dee's house perhaps. What did he import and export, and keep in his
                cellars. Scrying.

                Caerleon, a stones throw from St Julians and both in the metropolis of
                Newport in South Wales, is the ancient British Isles capital. One can
                Google some nice photos of it.

                Tintern, Green Dragon,......

                Black (gold) as far as Newport was concerned is black Welsh coal and a
                seemingly inexhaustible supply of it prior to Thatcher mine closures.
                Nearby Port Talbot is now dedicated to oil refining for the UK. Both
                reliant on merchant shipping.

                John

                > Hi John and Liz,
                >
                > Sorry to delay responding. . . I have been at a conference, and off-line.
                > Printing this off now, and will respond tomorrow!
                >
                > Terri
                >
                >
              • johnsouttar@blueyonder.co.uk
                Hi all, My mind was on the casting of horoscopes and stones and throwing of same, but my last post appears in gibbersih. sorry about that. Here is more
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 7 9:37 AM
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                  Hi all,

                  My mind was on the casting of horoscopes and stones and throwing of same,
                  but my last post appears in gibbersih. sorry about that.

                  Here is more Herbert blackness I am sorry to say. The 'Masque of
                  Blackness' in this case by Ben Jonson and Inigo Jones. and the 'twelve
                  daughters of niger'. Lady Wroth this time provides the tale

                  'Lady Mary Wroth (1587–1651/3) was an English poet of the Renaissance. A
                  member of a distinguished literary English family, Wroth was among the
                  first female British writers to have achieved an enduring reputation. She
                  is perhaps best known for having written The Countesse of Mountgomeries
                  Urania, the first extant prose romance by an English woman, and for
                  Pamphilia to Amphilanthus, the first known sonnet sequence by an English
                  woman.

                  Contents
                  1 Life
                  2 Themes within "The Countess of Mountgomeries Urania"
                  3 References
                  4 Secondary Sources
                  5 External links



                  Life
                  Mary Wroth was born on 18 October 1587 to Barbara Gamage (1563-1626) and
                  Robert Sidney (1559-1621). Wroth's mother Barbara was a wealthy Welsh
                  heiress and first cousin to Sir Walter Ralegh. Her father Robert was first
                  earl of Leicester and Viscount Lisle of Penshurst, a poet and governor of
                  Flushing, Netherlands. Mary Wroth was niece to Mary Sidney, Countess of
                  Pembroke and one of the most distinguished women writers and patrons of
                  the 16th century; and Sir Philip Sidney a famous Elizabethan
                  poet-courtier.

                  Because her father, Robert Sidney, was governor of Flushing, Wroth spent
                  much of her childhood at the home of Mary Sidney, and Penshurst, Baynard’s
                  Castle in London. Penshurt was one of the great country houses in the
                  Elizabethan and Jacobean period. It was a center of literary and cultural
                  activity and it's gracious hospitality is praised in Ben Jonson's famous
                  poem To Penshurst. During a time when most women were illiterate, Wroth
                  had the privilege of a formal education, which was obtained from household
                  tutors under the guidance of her mother 1. As a young woman, Lady Mary
                  belonged to Queen Anne’s intimate circle of friends and actively
                  participated in masques and entertainments2. With her family connections,
                  a career at court was all but inevitable. Wroth danced before Queen
                  Elizabeth on a visit to Penshurst and again in court in 1602. At this time
                  a likeness of her as a girl in a group portrait of Lady Sidney and her
                  children was captured in painting by Marcus Gheeraerts the younger in
                  1596, and is now on display at Penshurst 3.

                  On 27 September 1604, King James I married Mary to Sir Robert Wroth of
                  Loughton Hall. The marriage was not happy; there were issues between the
                  two beginning with difficulties over her father’s payment of her dowry. In
                  a letter written to his wife, Sir Robert Sidney, describes different
                  meetings with Robert Wroth who was often distressed by the behavior of
                  Mary shortly after their marriage 4. Robert Wroth appeared to have been a
                  gambler, philanderer and a drunkard. More evidence of the unhappy union
                  comes from poet and friend Ben Jonson, who even noted that ‘my Lady Wroth
                  is unworthily married on a Jealous husband’ 5 Various letter from Lady
                  Mary to Queen Anne also refer the financial losses her husband had
                  procured during their time together 6.

                  During her marriage, Mary became known for her literary activities and
                  more pertinently for her performances in several masques. In 1605 she
                  danced at the Whitehall Banqueting House in the The Masque of Blackness,
                  which was designed by Ben Jonson and Inigo Jones. Mary Wroth joined the
                  Queen and her friends in the production; all of whom painted their skin to
                  portray black, Ethiopian nymph who called themselves the 'twelve daughters
                  of Niger'. The masque was very successful and was the first in a long
                  series of similar court entertainments. The ‘twelve daughters of Niger’
                  also appeared in The Masque of Beauty in 1608; which was also designed by
                  Jonson and Jones. However, despite the success there were some less than
                  favorable reviews, some referring to the women's portrayal of the
                  daughters of Niger as ugly and unconvincing 7.

                  In February 1614, Mary gave birth to a son James. However, a month after
                  the birth of his first child, Robert Wroth died of gangrene and left Mary
                  deeply in debt. Two years later, Wroth's son died causing Mary lose the
                  Wroth estate to John Wroth, the nearest male relative of her late husband.
                  There is no evidence to suggest that Wroth was unfaithful to her husband,
                  but after his death, she entered a relationship with her cousin, William
                  Herbert, 3rd Earl of Pembroke. Mary and William shared many of the same
                  interests in the arts and literature and had been childhood friends. The
                  relationship produced at least two illegitimate children, a daughter,
                  Catherine, and a son, William. In “Herbertorum Prosapia” a
                  seventeenth-century manuscript compilation of the history of the Herbert
                  family, held at the Cardiff Library, a cousin of the earl of Pembroke, Sir
                  Thomas Herbert records William Herbert’s paternity of Wroth’s two children
                  8.

                  Mary Wroth’s alleged relationship with William Herbert and her children
                  born from that union are referenced in her work, The Countess of
                  Montgomery’s Urania. It is also claimed that William Herbert was a
                  favorite of Queen Anne and that she is the reason he gained the position
                  of the King's Lord Chamberlain in 1615. In Urania, Wroth repeatedly
                  returns to references to a powerful and jealous Queen who exiles her
                  weaker rival from the court in order to obtain her lover, causing many
                  critics to believe this referenced tension between Queen Anne and Wroth
                  over the love of Herbert. 9

                  Urania was the first known piece of original fiction by an English woman
                  and reflected Wroth’s experience as an eyewitness to the Jacobean court.
                  10 The publication of the book in 1621 was a success de scandale, as it
                  was widely (and with some justification) viewed as a roman à clef. The
                  diffuse plot is organized around relations between Pamphilia and her
                  wandering lover, Amphilanthus, and most critics consider it to contain
                  significant autobiographical elements. Although Wroth claimed that she
                  never had any intention of publishing the book, she was heavily criticized
                  by powerful noblemen for depicting their private lives under the guise of
                  fiction. However, her period of notoriety was brief after the scandal
                  aroused by these allusions in her romance; Urania was withdrawn from sale
                  by December of 1621 11.Two of the few authors to acknowledge this work
                  were Ben Jonson and Edward Denny, Baron of Waltham. Jonson, a friend and
                  colleague of Mary Wroth praised both Wroth and her works in “Sonnet to the
                  noble Lady, the Lady Mary Wroth.” Jonson claims that copying Wroth’s works
                  he not only became a better poet, but a better lover. Denny on the other
                  hand provides a very negative critique of Wroth's work; he accused her of
                  slander in a satiric poem, calling her a "hermaphrodite" and a "monster"
                  12. While Wroth returned fire in a poem of her own, the notoriety of the
                  episode may have contributed to her low profile in the last decades of her
                  life. There was also a second half of Urania, which was only printed for
                  the first time in 2000 and now resides in the Newberry Library in Chicago.
                  According to Shelia T. Cavanaugh, the second portion of the work was never
                  prepared by Wroth for actual publication and the narrative contains many
                  inconsistencies and is somewhat difficult to read 13.

                  After the publication issues surrounding Urania, Wroth left King James's
                  court and was later abandoned by William Herbert. There is little known
                  about Wroth's later years but it is known that she continued to face major
                  financial difficulties for the remainder of her life. Wroth died in either
                  1651 or 1653 14.


                  Themes within "The Countess of Mountgomeries Urania"
                  Wroth's famous work 'The Countess of Mountgomeries Urania'was published in
                  1621 and introduced controversial themes concerning gender. Mary Wroth was
                  a radical in her time merely for writing a work intended for public
                  consumption. For the time, the act of composing a novel by a woman
                  violated the ideals of female virtue. Bernadette Andrea, a literary critic
                  who focuses on gender themes in Urania in her work "Pamphilia's Cabinet:
                  Gendered Authorship and Empire in Lady Mary Wroth's Urania", writes that
                  female virtues at the time were seen to be silence and obedience15. A
                  woman of the time was expected to be chaste, silent, and obedient and this
                  theme is reiterated throughout contemporary religious works, legal
                  treaties, and literature. The three themes were considered linked; a
                  woman's silence and obedience were seen as proof of their chastity 16.17
                  By writing a novel intended for a mass audience in her society, critics
                  such as Bernadette Andrea claim, Wroth was acting out against the
                  established patriarchy and calling her own moral character into question.
                  Urania is the titular character of the work, but is not the character that
                  represents Wroth in the work. In the work, Urania is a foundling and lives
                  with shepherds. She is actually the biological offspring of the daughter
                  of the King of Naples, and comes to this realization over the course of
                  the work through a series of pastoral songs and sonnets with the
                  shepherds. The female character of Pamphilia reflects Wroth the most and
                  is the character who struggles with the mindset of the contemporary world
                  in which Wroth wrote 18. Pamphila, which is Greek for all loving,
                  struggles throughout the text with the infidelity of her lover
                  Amphialanthus, which is Greek for “one with two loves.” Pamphilia must
                  conceal her songs so that her moral character is not called into question
                  by others in "Urania." Pamphila carries around her works in a little
                  cabinet and keeps them to herself because society would shun them 19. She
                  is however, rewarded in the work for her actions. She becomes a queen in
                  Asia Minor despite her lack of the contemporary virtues of silence,
                  chastity, and obedience 20. Her compositions, although mostly secret, are
                  still a violation of the code of what a woman should be and Wroth does not
                  demonize her transgression, but rather glorifies it.

                  Wroth did not fair as well as her fictional character did when Urania was
                  published. Wroth also angered people by drawing upon her contemporaries as
                  inspiration. Paul Salzman, in “The Review of English Studies” article,
                  “Contemporary References in Wroth’s Urania” notes that this work was full
                  of references to others 21. One of her contemporaries claims that the
                  “whole world condemns” her work. Denny recommends that Wroth would be
                  better served to do as her aunt before her had done and confine herself to
                  translating holy works and read the biblical psalms like good women of the
                  time were expected to do 22. Wroth’s use of contemporaries as inspiration
                  throughout the book has not been exactly noted 23.What is known is that
                  society caught on to them and rejected the book out of hand as shameful
                  gossip by a sinful woman who was sinning by writing a book containing her
                  thoughts. In the article "'Not much to be marked': Narrative of the
                  Woman's Part in Lady Mary Wroth' Urania" by Naomi Miller published in the
                  journal “Studies in English Literature,” the author relates that Wroth’s
                  novel was the first work of fiction written by an English woman to be
                  published in the Renaissance 24 Virgina Woolfe correctly claimed that any
                  woman who composed a work of fiction would be "thought a monster" to
                  compose and publish any significant work of fiction during the period of
                  the Renaissance 25. The social back-lash against her work caused "Urania"
                  to be pulled from publication 6 months after it was first produced 26. One
                  critic, Lord Denny, called Wroth a "hermaphrodite in show, indeed a
                  monster" because of the attacks he perceived Wroth to be leveling at
                  English society and the English Court of King James in particular 27.
                  Denny goes on to command, drawing on the perceived virtue of female
                  obedience, that Wroth "leave idle books alone for wiser and worthier women
                  have written none." 28. The attacks from the powerful royal courtiers
                  limited production to only 16 copies of the work. She was spurned by
                  society of the time and has only recently moved beyond being viewed as
                  victim to being viewed as a capable author who has captured the mind of a
                  female poet in a time where such a profession was viewed as an aberration
                  29.

                  http://www.mybulgaria.info/modules.php?name=Wiki&title=Lady_Mary_Wroth

                  I would also add a bit about what I think this family is about. Ancestor
                  worship. It helps if you think you in direct descent from Mary to worship
                  her and her child, especially if you are bred for to worship your
                  ancestors. The Prosapia Herbertorum in Cardiff is the Herbert family
                  history up to Dee's death. This family take a profound interest in
                  themselves as you may have noticed. They also have a curious habit of
                  scanning each generation's babies and of suggesting names to bemused new
                  parents, looking for the genes to reappear. At first meeting often thought
                  to be Jewish.

                  Mary Roth brings Raleigh to the house, and also the Lisles, another family
                  notable for their appearances as Garter Knights. Curiously I have the
                  Lisles on my mother's side and this is my middle name. Mentioning such
                  things is probably annoying but may illustrate the mindset of these people
                  back then too. I hope the above is of some interest.

                  On Channel 5 last night started the series Henry V111: Mind of a Tyrant by
                  Dr David Starkey, well worth a look if you can get it. Although it
                  suffers with endless pretend Henry V11's looking into space. Last night
                  it was Henry V11's life and the fascinating tale of Lambert Simnel and the
                  Cornish army marching on London (which he defeats).

                  I see Simnel cakes everyday lately.
                  Happy Holy Week or is it Sad Holy Week, anyway whichever is your preference



                  John
                • johnsouttar@blueyonder.co.uk
                  Hi all, Inigo Jones is interesting. The name Inigo is said to be Basque (niger?). His father was Welsh and worked in the cloth trade in London. Both Ben Jonson
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 9 3:29 AM
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                    Hi all,

                    Inigo Jones is interesting. The name Inigo is said to be Basque (niger?).
                    His father was Welsh and worked in the cloth trade in London. Both Ben
                    Jonson and Inigo worked under the patronage of:
                    ‘Pembroke, William Herbert, 3rd Earl of Pembroke (1580–1630)
                    English courtier and patron of letters. He was briefly imprisoned by
                    Elizabeth I for his misbehaviour with Mary Fitton, English courtier and
                    maid of honour to the queen. A patron of Ben Jonson, Philip Massinger,
                    William Browne, and Inigo Jones, among others, he was also interested in
                    the Virginia, North West Passage, Bermuda, and East India companies.
                    Pembroke was lord chamberlain of the royal household (1615–26), lord
                    steward (1626–30), and chancellor of Oxford University from 1617, Pembroke
                    College being named after him. To him and his brother, the First Folio of
                    Shakespeare's works was dedicated. Pembroke was born in Wilton, England.
                    He was educated at Oxford University.’
                    We could also point out that he married Mary Talbot, and that both their
                    mothers were Mary’s.

                    Inigo Jones designed and rebuilt Wilton House for his patrons the
                    Herberts. It was an Abbey given to the family by Henry V111 when he
                    dissolved it, and it is their stateley home near Salisbury Plain, which
                    was also visited by Jones as he did the first recorded survey of the Welsh
                    Blue Stones at Stonehenge, chips of which blue stones (‘sapphires’,
                    ‘sephirs’) have found their way into ancient graves all over Europe. They
                    think that the ancients must have ascribed healing properties to this
                    stone which originates (only) in Pembrokeshire,

                    Apart from the being a fine artist and greatest of architects, Jones also
                    designed the costumes and scenery for the masques. This website shows some
                    of his original designs including the remarkably well drawn niger woman
                    costume for the Masque of Blackness (performed on Twelfth Night 1605 with
                    the Queen of Denmark blacking herself up and creating Brittania because
                    James has united the kingdoms of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England into
                    this single entity again. Very politically incorrect:
                    http://www.shafe.co.uk/art/early_stuart_10_-_the_caroline_court.asp



                    Another masque with a Brittania theme:
                    ‘Drawing by Inigo Jones for Scene I of the masque Coelum Britannicum
                    performed at the Banqueting House on Shrove Tuesday night, 18 February
                    1634. Sir Henry Herbert remarked ‘It was the noblest masque of my time to
                    this day, the best poetrye, best scenes, and the best habitts’.
                    The stage set for Coelum Britannicum is Roman ruins (possibly classical
                    British ruins), Inigo Jones. In fact all the designs of the period were
                    Inigo Jones. His early rival Constantino de Servio put on some masques but
                    he was over ambitious or incompetent and they were seen as disasters and a
                    waste of the patrons money. The cloud juddered, the pulleys screeched so
                    loud the music could not be heard and then one side of the cloud dropped
                    and the people had to hang on to stop themselves falling off. After him no
                    one else had the invention or the knowledge so Jones had a monopoly until
                    1640.’
                    Jones also designed the Banqueting House.

                    Perhaps more importantly Ben Jonson wrote the verse. These masques were
                    one offs and after the performance, which would go on ‘all night’ with
                    dancing interludes, all the scenery and costumes were destroyed and the
                    play would not be performed again. Unlike the plays which Jonson put on
                    at the Globe. For example his ‘Every Man in his Humour’ in which
                    Shakespeare performed as an actor on 22 September 1598. Some account that
                    his masterpiece, some ‘The alchemist’. The plot is fascinating given that
                    he knew Dee etc. (see below)
                    Ben Jonson is one of the main witnesses to Shakespeare as they met
                    regularly for what Fuller terms ‘wit-combats’ at ‘Raleigh’s’ Merrmaid
                    Club. So he would know who Shakespeare was and it is more than curious
                    that under Droeshout’s portrait of Shakespeare in the First Folio Jonson
                    has written:

                    On the portrait of Shakespeare

                    The figure that thou here seest put,
                    It was for gentle Shakespear cut,
                    Wherein the graver had a strife
                    With nature, to outdo the life:
                    O could he but have drawn his wit,
                    As well in brass, as he hath hit
                    His face, the print would then surpass
                    All that was ever writ in brass:
                    But since he cannot, reader, look
                    Not on his picture, but his book

                    And originally included in the First Folio his poem:
                    To the Memory of my beloved Master William Shakespeare, and what he hath
                    left us.
                    ………Thou art a monument without a tomb,
                    And art alive still, while thy book doth live

                    I note that he calls this William his master, who was actually William
                    Herbert. And there is much more to suggest that the two were the same. It
                    is easy to Google the Herbert portraits. There one can see the First Earl
                    of Pembroke in his bright black armour, with bright black hair and beard.
                    But the Herbert brothers to whom the Folio is dedicated (William and his
                    brother the Earl of Montgomery) have an uncanny resemblance to some of the
                    portraits of Shakespeare, even with the earring. Not all Shakespeare
                    portraits look the same. One bust in Southwark Cathedral looks like De
                    Vere for example. One might note here that Shakespeare wrote ‘to Mr W.H.
                    the onlie begetter of these ensuing sonnets’ but it is not known who WH
                    is.

                    Leaving the endless debate on who might Shakespeare have been if not
                    himself here is an intriguing look at Wilton House and its van Dyck
                    painting of one of the brothers:

                    'In the valley of the River Nadder in Wiltshire, the cool and elegant
                    chalk stream makes its way between the meadows, villages and downs on
                    either side. Trout and grayling flicker in the shallows and bunches of
                    meadowsweet flower on the banks. It is one of rural England’s most
                    civilised landscapes. Just to the west of Salisbury, the river slides past
                    the garden of Wilton House, the great Palladian palace of the earls of
                    Pembroke. The house is the climax of the landscape, and the climax of the
                    house is the huge saloon known in the seventeenth century as the “great
                    Dining-roome, or Roome of State”, now called the “Double Cube”. It is 30ft
                    wide, 30ft high and 60ft long – Palladian proportions, created here by
                    Inigo Jones and his associates in the 1630s. The decoration is so rich
                    that the harmonics nearly disappear beneath it. Carved swags, gilded
                    encrustations and suspended pompoms hang from the walls. There is a vast
                    fruitiness to it all; apples, peaches and pears drip from every surface.
                    Nothing is held back.
                    On the west wall of this stupendous room is an enormous portrait of the
                    family that owned and created it. Almost seventeen feet wide and eleven
                    deep, Philip Herbert, 4th Earl of Pembroke, and his Family (c.1635) is the
                    largest painting ever made by van Dyck, a joint portrait of the 4th Earl
                    of Pembroke and his children. Each of the ten figures it portrays is just
                    larger than lifesize and they dominate, as they were meant to, the gilded
                    space in front of them. The painting is full of grace and aristocratic
                    poise, of riches at ease with themselves, of what now would be called
                    privilege and was then considered nobility. It exudes a distant and
                    forgotten handsomeness, an abandoned world of elegance and power, neither
                    stiff nor louche, but regal and familial.
                    By the mid-1630s the Pembrokes had become one of the richest families in
                    England. They owned tens of thousands of acres in Wiltshire and the West
                    Country and tens of thousands more in Wales. They had surfed successive
                    waves of royal favour from the 1540s onwards. They had a large palace on
                    the Thames in London as well as some of the best apartments in Whitehall.
                    The earl was Lord Chamberlain, the chief official of the royal household,
                    as his brother had been before him, and the two of them had become
                    England’s greatest Renaissance patrons: Philip Sidney, Walter Raleigh,
                    Shakespeare, John Donne, George Herbert, Inigo Jones, the great garden
                    designer Isaac de Caus and now van Dyck had all swum into the Pembroke
                    orbit and benefited from it.
                    Look a little harder, though, and that atmosphere becomes more uncertain.
                    Inside this painting’s grace are hints of anxiety and melancholy, of a
                    world on the verge of collapse, of love thwarted and happiness denied, of
                    ambivalence as the companion of glamour. Van Dyck was portraying a family
                    at a particularly tender and vulnerable moment, one in which fragility and
                    failure underlay all the more glimmering aspects of worldly success.
                    The portrait was painted in the late winter of 1634 or the spring of 1635.
                    It is about a wedding. The earl’s oldest surviving son, fifteen-year-old
                    Charles, Lord Herbert, in scarlet, was to marry a young heiress, the
                    twelve or thirteen- year-old Mary Villiers, who was to bring to the
                    marriage a dowry of £25,000, roughly equivalent to 2,000 years’ wages of a
                    Wiltshire shepherd.'


                    And here is a snippet about Tintern Abbey where one Herbert was buried
                    (against his wishes). Tintern comes up occasionally and the recent find
                    there:
                    ‘The ruins of Tintern Abbey are renowned worldwide. They are among the
                    most extensive remains of any Cistercian monastery in the United Kingdom.
                    However, apart from the shells of the buildings themselves, almost nothing
                    survives of what they would once have contained.
                    This makes it all the more remarkable that a full -sized torso,
                    recognisable as the Virgin, does survive, although broken at the waist,
                    headless and childless. It is possible to discern where she once would
                    have held her Child, lying in her left arm. These pieces are thought to
                    date from the late 13th century.
                    Philip Chatfield first heard of the existence of these fragments when
                    working on the early stages of a statue of the Virgin and Child for St
                    Mary's Priory Church, Monmouth, Wales, in October 2005. He was interested
                    to see them and made a visit to the Abbey shortly afterwards in order to
                    do so. Subsequently he wrote a report on his visit, and he made the
                    suggestion of carving a replica, based as closely on the old fragments as
                    possible.
                    During the following months a group of local people considered this
                    suggestion and in due course approached Cadw, the custodians of Tintern
                    Abbey, about the feasibility of such a project. Their response was
                    encouraging and The Friends of Our Lady of Tintern were formed to put
                    together a formal application. On 29 June 2006 they heard that their
                    application had been successful.’

                    The Alchemist plot: (by Ben Jonson

                    With his master Lovewit resting in the country to avoid an outbreak of
                    plague in London, a clever servant named Face develops a scheme to make
                    money and amuse himself. He gives Subtle, a charlatan, and a prostitute
                    named Dol Common access to the house. Subtle disguises himself as an
                    alchemist, with Face as his servant; Doll disguises herself as a zealous
                    Puritan. Together, the three of them gull and cheat an assortment of
                    foolish clients. These include Sir Epicure Mammon, a wealthy sensualist
                    looking for the philosopher's stone; two greedy Puritans, Tribulation
                    Wholesome and Ananias, who hope to counterfeit Dutch money; Drugger, a
                    "tobacco man" hoping to marry the wealthy widow Dame Pliant; Dapper, an
                    incredibly suave, fashionable, good-looking 17th century gentleman, and
                    other minor figures looking for a short-cut to success in gambling or in
                    business.

                    The play takes place over the course of one day in the house of Face's
                    master. The three rogues are forced to increasingly frenetic manoeuvres
                    first to manage all of their simultaneous scams, and then to fend off the
                    suspicious Kestrel, Dame Pliant's brother. At last, Lovewit returns;
                    quickly perceiving what Face has done in his absence, he devises a scheme
                    of his own to allow all to end well. Doll and Subtle escape unpunished but
                    empty-handed; Mammon's goods are restored to him, but the Puritans' are
                    not. The smaller victims either flee or are driven from the stage. Lovewit
                    himself pledges troth to Dame Pliant, with Kestrel's approval. Face is
                    restored without punishment to his original place as Jeremy Lovewit's
                    butler.'

                    The name Lovewit suggests to me his master and the wit-contests.

                    Finally I cannot resist this link to the ‘Mermaid’. It relates to legends
                    that the 3 Mary’s went to various places and came to France:
                    ‘The third is a church on the coast, built and fortified against pirates
                    in the twelfth century. Dedicated originally to St. Mary (our Lady) of the
                    Sea, its title became The Three Marys of the Sea--'Les Saintes Maries de
                    la Mer." A legend originating about the year 1200 informs us that Mary
                    Magdalene, driven out to sea by the Jews, landed there together with Mary,
                    mother of James, Mary Salome, her sister Martha, their maid Sara, Lazarus,
                    Maximin, one of the seventy-two disciples, and Sidonius, the man born
                    blind’

                    John












                    > Hi John and Liz,
                    >
                    > Sorry to delay responding. . . I have been at a conference, and off-line.
                    > Printing this off now, and will respond tomorrow!
                    >
                    > Terri
                    >
                    >
                    > Liz, re:
                    >
                    > Hi Terri and John and everyone else still around, Re black as `Ddu', I've
                    > learned locally that in Irish it is `dubh' pronounced as if an extended or
                    > double `oo' close to the English `dove' and as meaning `black' can also be
                    > interpreted as `darkness'. The Magdalene, as `the Lady of the Tower
                    > (Migdal), is also called the `Lady of the Doves', perhaps for more than
                    > one reason (communication and origin among them). It was supposedly the
                    > `Norse'
                    > who settled Dublin and named it `Dubh (black0 pool or fountain'. Re the
                    > `black God', I seem to remember that Robert Graves wrote much more about
                    > the`White Goddess', than the `Black Goddess' and nothing at all about `the
                    > Red Goddess'.
                    >
                    >
                    > This no doubt is coming in from left field, but re: your "Dubh" comments
                    > above and other comments in the archive (Dee/Dhu/Ddu etc, and River Dee as
                    > "Black River," some say, or not, some say) what thoughts would you have
                    > about any of this and the Tudor-era Demond - Ormond feud? (See archive on
                    > "Black Tom Butler, his mother Joan, and his cousin Eleanor" thread.
                    > "Black Tom"= Q Elizabeth's cousin Thomas Dubh Butler, who has
                    > "interesting" connections to the Boleyns and feuds with the Wizard Earl of
                    > Kildare.)
                    >
                    > Meanwhile just got another book, "Shakespeare was Irish", a follow-up of
                    > sorts to the "Green Cockatrice" book that made a similar argument. No,
                    > personally, I think there's not much of a chance at all that Shakespeare
                    > was the Irish poet William Nugent as these authors claim, but it is
                    > interesting to see them picking out the same sorts of evidence we were
                    > looking few some months back in talking about the Desmond-Ormond feud, and
                    > the cluster of events that bring Edward Kelley to John Dee's door. So in
                    > that roundabout way, they're also related to "Shakespeare's Green
                    > Garland."
                    >
                    > I've found another John Garland since the first of those articles was
                    > written, by the way. His name is spelled "John Garlonde" and he's in
                    > Ireland connected to this same cluster of people, just as Francis Garland
                    > disappears for a couple of years from Dee's diary.
                    >
                    > LVX,
                    >
                    > Terri
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Terri Burns
                    ... Hi John, never heard that about Inogo Jones name. What do you mean. . . Euskara for the Niger river? I m not sure I understand your comment. You re
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 9 5:23 PM
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                      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, johnsouttar@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > Inigo Jones is interesting. The name Inigo is said to be Basque (niger?).

                      Hi John,

                      never heard that about Inogo Jones' name. What do you mean. . . Euskara for the Niger river? I'm not sure I understand your comment.

                      You're mentioning the Herberts again, and no I didn't get on-line yesterday as planned to comment on your last post, so my apologies.

                      Any thoughts on Jones' being influenced by the elliptical building in Chester. You remember, this one:

                      http://www.take27.co.uk/julianbaum/ChesterProject/EB/EB.html

                      We talked about it back in the discussion of Propaedeumata Aphoristica Theorems 26-30, message 2975 and others related.

                      Also curious about Inigo Jones and his families possibel connection to the (many many) other Welsh "Joneses," and the Webbs. Thomas Webbe, a Burgley agent and courier who brings Dee messages
                      from Dyer in 1591, appears at some important event in December 1592,
                      is charged with coining in 1593, and sent to Marshalsea prison, where
                      he is visited by Dee in 1594. This Webb and the many others appearing in Dee's diary about this time must be connected to the same group that was around Thomas Jones, who offers Dee a castle in Wales and is a cousin of Perrot. Later, Inigo Jones is connected to the Webbs--his nephew or son-in-law John Webb inherits all his drawings--this may be
                      descendents of the same family, and is a direct connection to Ashmole, Jones' fellow mason. Another theory is that Dee needed an
                      alchemical assistant/ "coiner" and Webb has been with Dyer, studying
                      with Kelley in Prague.

                      Inigo Jones and John Webb's interest in Stonehenge is also "interesting": more on that back in message 1205. What fun threads we've had, and dropped! I remember somewhere back there a thread on Stonehenge, zodiacs, and hexagrams, too.


                      > His father was Welsh and worked in the cloth trade in London. Both Ben
                      > Jonson and Inigo worked under the patronage of:
                      > `Pembroke, William Herbert, 3rd Earl of Pembroke (1580–1630)
                      > English courtier and patron of letters.

                      Which imho is enough to connect him to the same underground we talk about often without much else.

                      He was briefly imprisoned by
                      > Elizabeth I for his misbehaviour with Mary Fitton, English courtier and
                      > maid of honour to the queen. A patron of Ben Jonson, Philip Massinger,
                      > William Browne, and Inigo Jones, among others, he was also interested in
                      > the Virginia, North West Passage, Bermuda, and East India companies.
                      > Pembroke was lord chamberlain of the royal household (1615–26), lord
                      > steward (1626–30), and chancellor of Oxford University from 1617, Pembroke
                      > College being named after him. To him and his brother, the First Folio of
                      > Shakespeare's works was dedicated. Pembroke was born in Wilton, England.
                      > He was educated at Oxford University.'

                      What do you make of his possible connection to Simon Forman, or do you think there is one. ;)



                      > We could also point out that he married Mary Talbot, and that both their
                      > mothers were Mary's.
                      >
                      > Inigo Jones designed and rebuilt Wilton House for his patrons the
                      > Herberts. It was an Abbey given to the family by Henry V111 when he
                      > dissolved it, and it is their stateley home near Salisbury Plain, which
                      > was also visited by Jones as he did the first recorded survey of the Welsh
                      > Blue Stones at Stonehenge, chips of which blue stones (`sapphires',
                      > `sephirs') have found their way into ancient graves all over Europe.

                      Very interesting connection, thank you.


                      They
                      > think that the ancients must have ascribed healing properties to this
                      > stone which originates (only) in Pembrokeshire,

                      Can you tell me any more about this? Who is "they"? The Pembrokes of that era, someone else?


                      >
                      > Apart from the being a fine artist and greatest of architects, Jones also
                      > designed the costumes and scenery for the masques. This website shows some
                      > of his original designs including the remarkably well drawn niger woman
                      > costume for the Masque of Blackness (performed on Twelfth Night 1605 with
                      > the Queen of Denmark blacking herself up and creating Brittania because
                      > James has united the kingdoms of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England into
                      > this single entity again. Very politically incorrect:
                      > http://www.shafe.co.uk/art/early_stuart_10_-_the_caroline_court.asp
                      >

                      As I noted in my article, something was very rotten in the state of Denmark. Poor Tycho.


                      >
                      >
                      > Another masque with a Brittania theme:
                      > `Drawing by Inigo Jones for Scene I of the masque Coelum Britannicum
                      > performed at the Banqueting House on Shrove Tuesday night, 18 February
                      > 1634. Sir Henry Herbert remarked `It was the noblest masque of my time to
                      > this day, the best poetrye, best scenes, and the best habitts'.
                      > The stage set for Coelum Britannicum is Roman ruins (possibly classical
                      > British ruins), Inigo Jones. In fact all the designs of the period were
                      > Inigo Jones. His early rival Constantino de Servio put on some masques but
                      > he was over ambitious or incompetent and they were seen as disasters and a
                      > waste of the patrons money. The cloud juddered, the pulleys screeched so
                      > loud the music could not be heard and then one side of the cloud dropped
                      > and the people had to hang on to stop themselves falling off. After him no
                      > one else had the invention or the knowledge so Jones had a monopoly until
                      > 1640.'
                      > Jones also designed the Banqueting House.
                      >
                      > Perhaps more importantly Ben Jonson wrote the verse. These masques were
                      > one offs and after the performance, which would go on `all night' with
                      > dancing interludes, all the scenery and costumes were destroyed and the
                      > play would not be performed again. Unlike the plays which Jonson put on
                      > at the Globe. For example his `Every Man in his Humour' in which
                      > Shakespeare performed as an actor on 22 September 1598. Some account that
                      > his masterpiece, some `The alchemist'. The plot is fascinating given that
                      > he knew Dee etc. (see below)
                      > Ben Jonson is one of the main witnesses to Shakespeare as they met
                      > regularly for what Fuller terms `wit-combats' at `Raleigh's' Merrmaid
                      > Club. So he would know who Shakespeare was and it is more than curious
                      > that under Droeshout's portrait of Shakespeare in the First Folio Jonson
                      > has written:
                      >
                      > On the portrait of Shakespeare
                      >
                      > The figure that thou here seest put,
                      > It was for gentle Shakespear cut,
                      > Wherein the graver had a strife
                      > With nature, to outdo the life:
                      > O could he but have drawn his wit,
                      > As well in brass, as he hath hit
                      > His face, the print would then surpass
                      > All that was ever writ in brass:
                      > But since he cannot, reader, look
                      > Not on his picture, but his book
                      >

                      This whole thing is very odd, especially given Jonson's other, earlier comments about Shakespeare.


                      > And originally included in the First Folio his poem:
                      > To the Memory of my beloved Master William Shakespeare, and what he hath
                      > left us.
                      > ………Thou art a monument without a tomb,
                      > And art alive still, while thy book doth live
                      >
                      > I note that he calls this William his master, who was actually William
                      > Herbert. And there is much more to suggest that the two were the same. It
                      > is easy to Google the Herbert portraits. There one can see the First Earl
                      > of Pembroke in his bright black armour, with bright black hair and beard.
                      > But the Herbert brothers to whom the Folio is dedicated (William and his
                      > brother the Earl of Montgomery) have an uncanny resemblance to some of the
                      > portraits of Shakespeare, even with the earring. Not all Shakespeare
                      > portraits look the same. One bust in Southwark Cathedral looks like De
                      > Vere for example. One might note here that Shakespeare wrote `to Mr W.H.
                      > the onlie begetter of these ensuing sonnets' but it is not known who WH
                      > is.
                      >
                      > Leaving the endless debate on who might Shakespeare have been if not
                      > himself here is an intriguing look at Wilton House and its van Dyck
                      > painting of one of the brothers:
                      >
                      > 'In the valley of the River Nadder in Wiltshire, the cool and elegant
                      > chalk stream makes its way between the meadows, villages and downs on
                      > either side. Trout and grayling flicker in the shallows and bunches of
                      > meadowsweet flower on the banks. It is one of rural England's most
                      > civilised landscapes. Just to the west of Salisbury, the river slides past
                      > the garden of Wilton House, the great Palladian palace of the earls of
                      > Pembroke. The house is the climax of the landscape, and the climax of the
                      > house is the huge saloon known in the seventeenth century as the "great
                      > Dining-roome, or Roome of State", now called the "Double Cube". It is 30ft
                      > wide, 30ft high and 60ft long – Palladian proportions, created here by
                      > Inigo Jones and his associates in the 1630s. The decoration is so rich
                      > that the harmonics nearly disappear beneath it. Carved swags, gilded
                      > encrustations and suspended pompoms hang from the walls. There is a vast
                      > fruitiness to it all; apples, peaches and pears drip from every surface.
                      > Nothing is held back.
                      > On the west wall of this stupendous room is an enormous portrait of the
                      > family that owned and created it. Almost seventeen feet wide and eleven
                      > deep, Philip Herbert, 4th Earl of Pembroke, and his Family (c.1635) is the
                      > largest painting ever made by van Dyck, a joint portrait of the 4th Earl
                      > of Pembroke and his children. Each of the ten figures it portrays is just
                      > larger than lifesize and they dominate, as they were meant to, the gilded
                      > space in front of them. The painting is full of grace and aristocratic
                      > poise, of riches at ease with themselves, of what now would be called
                      > privilege and was then considered nobility. It exudes a distant and
                      > forgotten handsomeness, an abandoned world of elegance and power, neither
                      > stiff nor louche, but regal and familial.
                      > By the mid-1630s the Pembrokes had become one of the richest families in
                      > England. They owned tens of thousands of acres in Wiltshire and the West
                      > Country and tens of thousands more in Wales. They had surfed successive
                      > waves of royal favour from the 1540s onwards. They had a large palace on
                      > the Thames in London as well as some of the best apartments in Whitehall.
                      > The earl was Lord Chamberlain, the chief official of the royal household,
                      > as his brother had been before him, and the two of them had become
                      > England's greatest Renaissance patrons: Philip Sidney, Walter Raleigh,
                      > Shakespeare, John Donne, George Herbert, Inigo Jones, the great garden
                      > designer Isaac de Caus and now van Dyck had all swum into the Pembroke
                      > orbit and benefited from it.

                      You're sumamrizing all of this very nicely, thanks . . . hey, you aren't on the underground Pembroke payroll, are you?


                      > Look a little harder, though, and that atmosphere becomes more uncertain.
                      > Inside this painting's grace are hints of anxiety and melancholy, of a
                      > world on the verge of collapse, of love thwarted and happiness denied, of
                      > ambivalence as the companion of glamour. Van Dyck was portraying a family
                      > at a particularly tender and vulnerable moment, one in which fragility and
                      > failure underlay all the more glimmering aspects of worldly success.
                      > The portrait was painted in the late winter of 1634 or the spring of 1635.
                      > It is about a wedding. The earl's oldest surviving son, fifteen-year-old
                      > Charles, Lord Herbert, in scarlet, was to marry a young heiress, the
                      > twelve or thirteen- year-old Mary Villiers, who was to bring to the
                      > marriage a dowry of £25,000, roughly equivalent to 2,000 years' wages of a
                      > Wiltshire shepherd.'
                      >

                      hsi whole saga of course is played out in literature, of which there is only little and very poor criticism. Of the generation before (Mary Sidney, her young lover whose name I forget, their circle) there is some. (I read _Sidney Family Romance_ until it completely bored me, apologies to the author.) Actually the most fun of all the books on the Sidneys is the on that imho is the most wrong, the one saying it is possible that Mary Sidney was Shakespeare. LOL not likely, but the author, Robin Williams, does have a lot of fun with the subject and touches on all the Herberts you've mentioned above.

                      See
                      http://www.marysidney.com/
                      http://www.noendpress.com/adarrah/sweet_swan_avon.php

                      Re: what you say below, concernign Tintern Abby, we can assume the Romantic poets knew this, yes? This information in other words has not just been recently rediscovered?

                      (Sorry for asking about the obvious, but I lose track of your country's history and literature after the mid 1600s or so. . .)

                      LVX,

                      Terri


                      >
                      > And here is a snippet about Tintern Abbey where one Herbert was buried
                      > (against his wishes). Tintern comes up occasionally and the recent find
                      > there:
                      > `The ruins of Tintern Abbey are renowned worldwide. They are among the
                      > most extensive remains of any Cistercian monastery in the United Kingdom.
                      > However, apart from the shells of the buildings themselves, almost nothing
                      > survives of what they would once have contained.
                      > This makes it all the more remarkable that a full -sized torso,
                      > recognisable as the Virgin, does survive, although broken at the waist,
                      > headless and childless. It is possible to discern where she once would
                      > have held her Child, lying in her left arm. These pieces are thought to
                      > date from the late 13th century.
                      > Philip Chatfield first heard of the existence of these fragments when
                      > working on the early stages of a statue of the Virgin and Child for St
                      > Mary's Priory Church, Monmouth, Wales, in October 2005. He was interested
                      > to see them and made a visit to the Abbey shortly afterwards in order to
                      > do so. Subsequently he wrote a report on his visit, and he made the
                      > suggestion of carving a replica, based as closely on the old fragments as
                      > possible.
                      > During the following months a group of local people considered this
                      > suggestion and in due course approached Cadw, the custodians of Tintern
                      > Abbey, about the feasibility of such a project. Their response was
                      > encouraging and The Friends of Our Lady of Tintern were formed to put
                      > together a formal application. On 29 June 2006 they heard that their
                      > application had been successful.'
                      >
                      > The Alchemist plot: (by Ben Jonson
                      >
                      > With his master Lovewit resting in the country to avoid an outbreak of
                      > plague in London, a clever servant named Face develops a scheme to make
                      > money and amuse himself. He gives Subtle, a charlatan, and a prostitute
                      > named Dol Common access to the house. Subtle disguises himself as an
                      > alchemist, with Face as his servant; Doll disguises herself as a zealous
                      > Puritan. Together, the three of them gull and cheat an assortment of
                      > foolish clients. These include Sir Epicure Mammon, a wealthy sensualist
                      > looking for the philosopher's stone; two greedy Puritans, Tribulation
                      > Wholesome and Ananias, who hope to counterfeit Dutch money; Drugger, a
                      > "tobacco man" hoping to marry the wealthy widow Dame Pliant; Dapper, an
                      > incredibly suave, fashionable, good-looking 17th century gentleman, and
                      > other minor figures looking for a short-cut to success in gambling or in
                      > business.
                      >
                      > The play takes place over the course of one day in the house of Face's
                      > master. The three rogues are forced to increasingly frenetic manoeuvres
                      > first to manage all of their simultaneous scams, and then to fend off the
                      > suspicious Kestrel, Dame Pliant's brother. At last, Lovewit returns;
                      > quickly perceiving what Face has done in his absence, he devises a scheme
                      > of his own to allow all to end well. Doll and Subtle escape unpunished but
                      > empty-handed; Mammon's goods are restored to him, but the Puritans' are
                      > not. The smaller victims either flee or are driven from the stage. Lovewit
                      > himself pledges troth to Dame Pliant, with Kestrel's approval. Face is
                      > restored without punishment to his original place as Jeremy Lovewit's
                      > butler.'
                      >
                      > The name Lovewit suggests to me his master and the wit-contests.
                      >
                      > Finally I cannot resist this link to the `Mermaid'. It relates to legends
                      > that the 3 Mary's went to various places and came to France:
                      > `The third is a church on the coast, built and fortified against pirates
                      > in the twelfth century. Dedicated originally to St. Mary (our Lady) of the
                      > Sea, its title became The Three Marys of the Sea--'Les Saintes Maries de
                      > la Mer." A legend originating about the year 1200 informs us that Mary
                      > Magdalene, driven out to sea by the Jews, landed there together with Mary,
                      > mother of James, Mary Salome, her sister Martha, their maid Sara, Lazarus,
                      > Maximin, one of the seventy-two disciples, and Sidonius, the man born
                      > blind'
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                    • Terri Burns
                      ... All right, lets. I m, game if you are, at least until one of us tires or goes off-line again. ... Yes. . . and begs the question of why a writer
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 9 5:31 PM
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                        --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, johnsouttar@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi all - I still get your e-mails so I hope you will not mind me putting
                        > this before you as I would be most interested in your comments - quite a
                        > lot of this has been discussed or touched on by the group here. You are
                        > the experts and it seems quite relevant at present particularly the black
                        > god/king (about a quarter way down). It may be a bit of a trawl but it
                        > does explain much about our Dr Dee (Ddu):
                        >
                        > So let us look at the clues. Shakespeare, Tudor Architecture, Poetry,
                        > Theatre, Magicians like John Dee, a Black God, Wool. Who lives in a house
                        > like this?

                        All right, lets. I'm, game if you are, at least until one of us tires or goes off-line again.

                        >
                        > The Welsh Bards give an early clue. If Welsh poetry does not appeal one
                        > can skim down to Black god but much of interest is written between the
                        > lines.

                        Yes. . . and begs the question of why a writer influenced by Welshmen became called the Bard to begin with.

                        >The sixth century legend of Taliesin starts off the Arthurian saga
                        > around which courtly life was often based, and Merlin like Welsh magicians
                        > tolerated:
                        >
                        > 8 Taliesin, or The Critic Criticised.
                        >
                        > ii. (M)unc dutigirn — (in his time flourished Tal., etc.)
                        >
                        > iii. (M)ailcun King of Gwyneò etc.
                        >
                        > iv. (A)dda the son of Ida etc.
                        > It is the second entry which concerns us. The Editors of
                        > this paragraph have all printed (T)unc Dutigirn, under-
                        > standing " Then Dutigirn, at that time ", and so making
                        > this singularly named hero a contemporary of Ida of
                        > Northumbria. And " there you are " with proof positive
                        > that Taliesin and his fellow bards (named in paragraph ii.)
                        > lived in the sixth century ! Prima facie the case looks
                        > conclusive. But things are not always what they seem.
                        > Note that the other three paragraphs begin with a proper
                        > name, followed by words which fix their identity. If
                        > Dutigirn is a proper name, nothing follows to tell us who
                        > he was. If on the other hand we read " (M)unc, du tigirn "
                        > {niger rex) it is the epithet of a B]ack King we know,
                        > and the entry is on all fours with the other three. Who
                        > then was " Munc, the Black King"? He was Magnus'
                        > King of the Black Gentiles — the " gentiles nigri " of the
                        > Annales Cambrie, and the cenheèloeè duon of Brut y
                        > Tywysogion. The Norse icore hlach mail, just as Edward,
                        > the Black Prince did, hence the epithet " black " in both
                        >
                        > Dee mentions a Magnus. Is he perhaps recreating these characters around
                        > himself, or part of an ancient magic circle perhaps? I am interested in
                        > this black king. The `liber niger' or black book is the list of the
                        > Knights of the Garter compiled in Henry V111's reign. There is also a
                        > contemporaneous Black Book of Venus.
                        >
                        > Next we can find the famous Ddu (Black) family immortalised.

                        Listgroup members who have recently joined, you might want to search the archives here for Ddu and Dee, as there has been much discussion of this. Dee's name, of course, what accounting to one account (his) Anglicized from "Ddu" See also Irish "Dubh" in archive, as in "Black Tom" or Thomas Dubh Butler, Elizabeth's Irish cousin.

                        Meanwhile John, hoping my next bit dowsn't offend you, but below is a repost from the Fifth Way list. I don't suppose you'd care to connect this to the Herberts in any way? As you know, the William Herbert of the early 1500s, the one Aubrey writes about, was aclled "Black Will" Herbert. One theory is that he was "black" like a gypsy, or Egyptian.

                        --- In FWMSdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, __J__ <jn1947@...> wrote:
                        > ... W... It would make sense. Robert Anton Wilson said that the
                        central secret
                        > communicated in the Orphic(?) Initations was "Osiris was a Black
                        > God."
                        >

                        Hi-- I am not writing to agree or disagree with any of the lines of
                        discussion, as much as I would like to put Wilson's comment in
                        context.

                        From _Cosmic Trigger_:

                        "'...To ancient initiates Isis was a symbol of Sirius and Osiris a
                        symbol of the Dark Companion of Sirius; but he is not aware of
                        Crowley's and Levi's insistence that the traditional secret revealed
                        in the Eleusian Mysteries was that 'Osiris is a black god!'"

                        "... The familiar symbol of Isis, with a star above her and one of
                        her feet in water and the other on land, is a symbol of the Sirius
                        connection..." (Atu XVII of the Tarot - The Star)

                        "Temple also demonstrates that the whole Egyptian calendar revolved
                        around the movements of Sirius - the year began with the 'dog days'
                        when Sirius started to rise behind the sun (July 23 in our
                        calendar) ...that the earliest hieroglyphic for Osiris (the God of
                        Resurrection and of Eternal Life) was an eye plus a throne; and that
                        the most secret of the rituals of Osiris, the 'black rite,' is
                        described on one Hermetic text as being so cryptic in its total
                        meaning that men will only understand it fully when they pursue the
                        stars 'unto the height'..."

                        ***************

                        The Eleusinian Mysteries, which in classical times took place outside
                        Athens and reenacted the search of grain-mother Demeter for her lost
                        daughter, Kore/Persephone, are only one of the many Greek--or perhaps
                        Greco-Egyptian--mystery cults; all of those I am aware of use
                        gods/goddesses who can refer to the Egyptian pantheon as well. So
                        to return to Wilson's quote-- connect the Eleusinian Mysteries to
                        Dionysis, which isn't hard, and note that Dionysis like Osiris is a
                        God of the Dead/ underword, a place often considered "Black," in
                        addition to whatever skin color one wants to ascribe. He's
                        associated with a constellation in the "black" night sky like most
                        ancients Gods and Goddesses.

                        Robert Graves' version of the Greek myths might be helpful-- here's
                        an on-line paraphrase from

                        http://www.widdershins.org/vol5iss6/01.htm :

                        "In Robert Graves' standard version in The Greek Myths - of which
                        version there are many variants, some important to the god's
                        connection with Osiris - Dionysos was the son of Semele, a Theban
                        lover of Zeus who while pregnant asked the great thunder-god to come
                        to her in his divine aspect. Zeus thereby burned Semele to ashes.
                        Clever Hermes, messenger god, snatched up the unborn babe and sewed
                        him into Zeus's thigh, from whence Dionysos was born again. Zeus's
                        jealous wife, the goddess Hera, then bade the Titans rip Dionysos to
                        shreds, but Zeus's goddess mother Rhea took up the pieces and
                        reconstituted the godling.

                        After these three births, then, Hermes took Dionysos to the nymphs of
                        Nysa to rear. When Dionysos reached manhood, Hera found him again and
                        sent him mad. Mad he ranged the world, conquering it with an army of
                        women followers, maenads, and of goat-foot satyrs. He spread the
                        cultivation of the vine as he conquered, to Egypt, Libya, India,
                        Phrygia and then back to Greece, where Rhea purified him of many
                        murders. He continued teaching vine-tillage first in Thrace and then
                        in Thebes, where he encountered resistance. He countered the
                        resistance first gently, then with horrors, inducing Queen Agave to
                        rip her king-son Pentheus limb from limb. Dionysos then swept through
                        the Aegean, escaping from pirates on dolphin-back; on Naxos, he
                        seduced and married the Cretan princess Ariadne, abandoned by the
                        Athenian hero Theseus.

                        After these conquests, the Olympians admitted him to their number.
                        Shining with godhead, Dionysos traveled then to Hades and with the
                        help of the goddess Persephone released his mother from the dead"

                        ***********8

                        Meanwhile, remember "Black" is also connected to alchemy as I suspect
                        has been talked about sometime or many times on this list-- "the
                        black art," nigromancy, another way of writing alchemy.

                        Our esteemed list-owner has many articles on the web connecting
                        alchemy to precessional astronomy which refers itself to "blackness"
                        in quite a few ways. . . I think there are discussions in the
                        archives of "Isis" on one level representing the dark "space" in the
                        sky which is a fairly significant precessional marker.

                        Referring back to the Osiris myth. . . if one takes this and applies
                        it celestially to the Osiris myth, one notes that when Osiris' "red"
                        brother Set falls in love with Isis and plots his brother's death, he
                        is helped by 72 conspirators. . . 72 being a "fairly significant"
                        precessional number. (25,920 / 360 = 72; 72 years the length of time
                        it takes a celestial object to precess one degree when viewed from
                        earth).

                        Here is a quote I have on my computer, which I think is from chapter
                        14 of _Mysteries_, a part I'm "fairly sure" was written by Bridges
                        rather than Weidner:

                        ""There are of course three pyramids on the Giza plateau, Khufu,
                        Khaphre and Menkaura as named for their supposed builders. Each is
                        half an octahedron in structure and the geometry of their orientation
                        and placement is nothing short of amazing. The length of the side of
                        Khufu's and Kaphre's pyramids are used to create a complex Throne of
                        Osiris gnomon that, when expanded into three dimensions with four
                        such 4 x 4 grids, forms a gnomic cube of 64 interior cubes, with 16
                        square faces on each side for a total of 96 faces on its surface. The
                        64 cubes that compose the Cube suggest a link with the 64 codons of
                        DNA and the 64 hexagrams of the I Ching, and the 96 faces (16 per
                        face x 6 faces = 96) may be the same process expressed in terms of
                        precession. Our INRI period of 270 years is 1/96th of the Great
                        Precessional year of 25,920 years (270 x 96 = 25,920).

                        "According to Hero of Alexandria, "A gnomon is any figure, which,
                        when added to an original figure, leaves the resultant figure similar
                        to the original." In nature, we see this in growth by accretion or
                        accumulative increase such as can be seen in bones, horns, shells and
                        even our brains. Perhaps our best example of a gnomic perspective is
                        the night sky. Every glance up toward the stars is a look into the
                        distant past, with light whizzing by us on its the way to the future.
                        Our world, our visible universe, is but a residue in which all time
                        exists in ever-present layers.

                        "Concerning the Throne of Osiris gnomon, Robert Lawlor, in his Sacred
                        Geometry, comments: "In Egyptian iconography the square and its
                        gnomon appear on the throne of Osiris upon which the king takes his
                        seat. The enthroned king, as representative of the eternal solar
                        power on earth, is thus appropriately associated with the fixed
                        element, the square with its gnomon, which is constant through growth
                        and change. Yet this throne is also the throne of Osiris – the
                        divinity representing the cyclic pattern of change in nature – in his
                        otherworldly kingdom of potentiality. In this sense the throne is the
                        fixed support upon which the Osirian cycles of flux must rest."

                        LVX,

                        Terri
                      • johnsouttar@blueyonder.co.uk
                        Firstly some articles about the blue stone chippings. ... may explain why only the underground parts of many of the bluestones survive, and why chippings are
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 10 1:23 PM
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                          Firstly some articles about the blue stone chippings.

                          >> Blue Stones at Stonehenge, chips of which blue stones (`sapphires',
                          >> `sephirs') have found their way into ancient graves all over Europe.
                          >
                          > Very interesting connection, thank you.
                          >
                          >
                          > They
                          >> think that the ancients must have ascribed healing properties to this
                          >> stone which originates (only) in Pembrokeshire,
                          >
                          > Can you tell me any more about this? Who is "they"?

                          'may explain why only the underground parts of many of the bluestones
                          survive, and why chippings are found in graves across the country,
                          including at Silbury. Bluestone, like a copper bracelet, was plainly long
                          thought to be a health-giving token.'

                          http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/26/archaeology.heritage

                          Recently, archaeologists have - through isotope analysis of teeth -
                          discovered that three of the remains found in a 2,300 year-old grave close
                          to the Stonehenge site are most probably Welshmen, and were likely to have
                          been involved in the construction of the monument.
                          http://www.new-age.co.uk/stonehenge-standing-stones.htm

                          But Darvill and Wainwright have also traced the bluestones - the stones in
                          the centre of Stonehenge - to the exact spot they came from in the Preseli
                          hills, 250km away in the far west of Wales.

                          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7322134.stm

                          But the dig itself produced more evidence of just how important the
                          bluestones were.

                          As the dig moved from a previously excavated trench into virgin territory,
                          it soon became clear that the soil was heavy with bluestone fragments.
                          According to Professor Timothy Darvill, one of the archaeologists behind
                          the 'healing' theory, "The bluestones are being broken up pretty
                          systematically... because people want bits of those stones to take away."

                          http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/stonehenge/article4.shtml

                          Speaking with one of the EH Custodians on my recent visits to Stonehenge,
                          he remarked that bits of bluestone have been found in many of the barrows
                          of the area (I guess the round barrows instead of the long barrows due to
                          their chronology with Stonehenge), in addition to the recent finds during
                          the summer. Whatever it was about the Bluestones, they were valued indeed.

                          No -- many bluestone chips and fragments have been found in the LONG
                          barrows in the Stonehenge area -- and in the Aubrey Holes and in the
                          Cursus. Then there is the bluestone boulder that came from the Boles
                          Barrow -- also a long barrow
                          http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?thold=-1&mode=flat&order=0&sid=2146412659

                          I will post a reference for chips of this stone being found in Europe as
                          cannot find that tonight.

                          I would think that if we were to take the black god back to Egypt the
                          closest fit would be Amen, the hidden god, the Egyptian god for the poor
                          man, the god who sits at the head of the table of primeval gods etc. He
                          is veiled (by that veil of Veronica) and has a wife. And as is so apt for
                          one whoses name means hidden, hides in every prayer - Jewish, Muslim or
                          Christian at the end. The fact that Ddu might actually mean Jew is highly
                          significant in this case as for the early Welsh Christians Christ was a
                          foreign god, a Ddu God.

                          What one is dealing with Dee is a hidden or occult world. No kid going
                          through A level history in England will hear of the Herberts, nor most
                          doing a history degree. Many people are claimed to be Shakespeare but not
                          Henry Herbert, the William Herberts and Philip. One is a man who would
                          have been an actor had that been allowed for a principal Knight of the
                          realm, but was perhaps allowed as a boy to play a Roman soldier in a play
                          and wave his stick in the air. Another formed a club of poets to work
                          together on plays, paid for by the family and performed for the people not
                          just the court. A man who had to hide and whose role in the government of
                          this country was also pretty much hidden. And one was a man who tried to
                          be there for the people and lived next door to Dee. They all work as one,
                          that is the continuity you get with genes, family estates and titles, but
                          not in all familes of course. Just the ones who respect their ancestors.

                          Henry Herbert had married Catherine Talbot and his son (by Mary Sidney)
                          married Mary Talbot (a dwarf) and had an affair with Lady Wroth who kissed
                          and told the whole court that he was having an affair with the Queen
                          (James 1's wife Anne). His poor wife Mary Talbot was Edward Talbot's
                          neice.

                          'The Alchemist' suggests that when he found out what his 'servant' (read
                          protege) had been doing while he was at Wilton (possibly with Simon
                          Forman) he then tried to do some damage limitation. So he returned the
                          gold fraudulently taken from Rudolph, and had his wife's uncle's character
                          Edward 'Kelley' put to rest (while Talbot returned to England, later to
                          take up his Shewsbury title when his brother died in 1616). Cleared things
                          up in other words with his Garter chum Rudolph and covered things up. Dee
                          was pensioned off but he was never happy again after discovering the scale
                          of the deceit. He did not share his cousin's sense of humour or wit. But
                          what stands out and unnerves everyone is that while pretending to scry,
                          Talbot almost certainly did succeed. While Batholomew who really could
                          scry was taken to Wilton, one can imagine to work on behalf of Brittania.
                          Whose hope lay in another Mary and her son James.

                          But on that subject it is interesting also that the Talbot family were
                          looking after another Suart claimant who could have provided the key to a
                          United Kingdon, their aim at this time. Here is Arbella:

                          'Gilbert became a patron of the arts, as was his daughter Alethea, who
                          became Countess of Arundel by her marriage to Thomas Howard in 1606.
                          Talbot's second daughter, Elizabeth, married Henry Grey, 8th Earl of Kent.
                          The eldest, Mary, married William Herbert, 3rd Earl of Pembroke. As well
                          as bringing up their three daughters, Gilbert and Mary Talbot spent a good
                          deal of time with their orphaned niece, Arbella Stuart.

                          In 1592, Gilbert Talbot was created a Knight of the Garter. In the absence
                          of a male heir, he was succeeded in the earldom of Shrewsbury by his
                          younger brother, Edward (with whom he had once fought a duel). However,
                          some of the extensive estates passed then (or after Edward's death) to his
                          daughters.(Wikipedia)

                          'Arbella Stuart (or "Arabella" and/or "Stewart") (1575 - 27 September
                          1615) was an English Renaissance noblewoman who was for some time
                          considered a possible successor to Queen Elizabeth I on the English
                          throne.

                          Arbella Stuart was a direct descendant of King Henry VII of England. As
                          the only child of Charles Stuart, Earl of Lennox and Elizabeth Cavendish,
                          she was a grandchild of Matthew Stewart, 4th Earl of Lennox and Margaret
                          Douglas, who was, in turn, the daughter of Margaret Tudor, widow of James
                          IV of Scotland, mother of James V of Scotland, and daughter of England's
                          Henry VII. Margaret Douglas was the product of Margaret Tudor's second
                          marriage, to Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus.

                          Arbella's paternal grandparents, the 4th Earl of Lennox and Margaret
                          Douglas, had two sons: Arbella's father Charles and his older brother,
                          Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, who became the second husband of Mary I of
                          Scotland, also called Mary, Queen of Scots, and the father of James I of
                          Great Britain. Arbella's maternal grandparents were Sir William Cavendish
                          and Bess of Hardwick.

                          In her final days, as a prisoner in the Tower of London, Lady Arabella
                          Seymour (her married name), refusing to eat, fell ill, and died on 27
                          September 1615. She was buried in Westminster Abbey on 29 September 1615.
                          She did not aspire to the English throne.[1]

                          No wonder the Herberts kept their heads down, but clearly their patronage
                          created a huge impetus in the arts, navigation, etc (espionage). But
                          Talbot's scam was a bit over the top even for them.

                          John
                        • Terri Burns
                          ... Thank you for all the links. If you find this one, I d very much like to see it. LVX, Terri
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 12 9:26 AM
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                            --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, johnsouttar@... wrote:

                            > I will post a reference for chips of this stone being found in Europe as
                            > cannot find that tonight.
                            >

                            Thank you for all the links. If you find this one, I'd very much like to see it.

                            LVX,

                            Terri
                          • Liz Forrest
                            Hi John and Terri, curious about these bluestone chips, as different kinds of stone might be associated with particular ancestors, thinking of the Picts and
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 13 2:25 PM
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                              Hi John and Terri, curious about these bluestone chips, as different kinds of stone might be associated with
                              particular ancestors, thinking of the Picts and others being tattoed or painted in blue.  Woad?  Is that the name? 
                              Woden?  Odin?  The one who suffers?  Re Amen, that he is hidden makes me wonder is blue also black, as 'invisible', and does
                              being 'veiled' or 'hidden' link him to Eros, beloved of Psyche?  Isis also goes veiled, but there are some who might cause
                              problems if their 'energy' is seen by unprepared eyes?  Or so different in appearance that they might drive humans mad? 
                              Always wondered about the choice of names for the three nephews of Donald Duck, Hewie, Dewie and Lewie.   Hu, Dhu/Dju and Lugh? 
                              If I remember correctly, the Sumerian story of the powerful uncle/overlord Enki teaching his nephew Ninurash a 'long-running
                              lesson' by using the 'Turtle' to tip him into the Pit (a black hole?), comes to mind.  The Turtle being a match for the great Serpent
                              wrapped around Mithra as the cat-headed Kosmokrater?  Many names for the same person?  As with Isis? 

                              It had occurred to me, a few years ago, that Jesus can also be seen as 'J'Esus, which might explain how the Druids
                              made a simple shift to becoming the early British Christians, as he fulfilled the pattern of Esus, thinking of the stories as
                              in 'The New Jerusalem" by Blake, of him walking these islands.  Love, Liz

                              "No -- many bluestone chips and fragments have been found in the LONG
                              barrows in the Stonehenge area -- and in the Aubrey Holes and in the
                              Cursus. Then there is the bluestone boulder that came from the Boles
                              Barrow -- also a long barrow
                              http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?thold=-1&mode=flat&order=0&sid=2146412659

                              I will post a reference for chips of this stone being found in Europe as
                              cannot find that tonight.

                              I would think that if we were to take the black god back to Egypt the
                              closest fit would be Amen, the hidden god, the Egyptian god for the poor
                              man, the god who sits at the head of the table of primeval gods etc. He
                              is veiled (by that veil of Veronica) and has a wife. And as is so apt for
                              one whoses name means hidden, hides in every prayer - Jewish, Muslim or
                              Christian at the end. The fact that Ddu might actually mean Jew is highly
                              significant in this case as for the early Welsh Christians Christ was a
                              foreign god, a Ddu God."  If I'm not making much sense, my apologies,
                              as my brain keeps drifting off to sleep at my laptop!  Love, Liz


                              2009/4/12 Terri Burns <burnst@...>


                              --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, johnsouttar@... wrote:

                              > I will post a reference for chips of this stone being found in Europe as
                              > cannot find that tonight.
                              >

                              Thank you for all the links. If you find this one, I'd very much like to see it.

                              LVX,

                              Terri


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