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Lupos again, and the Foix family

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  • Terri Burns
    Re: earlier discussion about the Lupo and Kellim viol players imported by Henry VIII and possible connections to the magickal circle around John Dee and
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 2, 2008
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      Re: earlier discussion about the Lupo and Kellim viol
      players "imported" by Henry VIII and possible connections to the
      magickal circle around John Dee and Edward Kelley, including
      the "reach" that another group of "imported" musicians, the van
      Wilders/Wildes were relatives of John Dee's mother . . .

      Some of you know that I posted related questions on another list
      where Tim Carmain has posted some interesting replies. He said he
      did not mind if I reposted the conversation here, so here it is, part
      1. The "why should anyone care" part may be obvious near the end; if
      not, its also in the next post. Any thoughts/comment/feedback
      welcome!

      reposted conversation from Priory-of-Sion list, w/ permission of
      other poster:

      Terri:
      Quite some time ago on this list—back in 2000 and 2001!—there was a
      conversation concerning the Lupo family.

      <snip>

      I am trying to trace connections, or see if there is a connection,
      between the Lupos discussed by some of you back then and the family
      of Lupos brought by Henry VIII (many years later, obviously) to the
      English court.

      This later family, who are violinists and merchants with some
      connection to France, are usually identified on Sephardic Jews from
      Milan by way of Venice, but that's more because 1) they're
      violinists, and the history of the viol and violin would seem to
      connect them more with Italy, and 2) the habit of identifying anyone
      with a "Lupo"-like last name—ie Lupo, Lupa, Lopez, more on this next
      post—as "Jewish," and leaving of secondary importance "from where?"—
      Basque, French, Polish, etc. The English Lupos may have a Polish
      connection, too, at least as argued by Roger Prior. I'll put the
      English-violinist Lupos in a second post, following this one.

      I would really appreciate any insight/conversation any of you may
      want to share about possible connections here!

      Connections I am particularly interested in:

      --Possible connection between English Lupos and Basque merchants
      --Connections between the Lupo and de Foix families after 1300—
      especially any that may still exist in the 1500s, especially between
      Paul de Foix and any member/descendent of the Lupo family
      --Connections between the Lupo or de Foix families and Poland (yes,
      that may be a reach)
      --Any others anyone sees or wants to talk about. As you cans see
      from the threads I've mentioned, some assume a connection between
      this family and alchemy, and/or Grail legends/ and/or Septimania,
      and/or Basque legends, all as possible subjects feeding priory
      legend, and others don't.

      <snip>

      Discussion concerned among other things what connection the Lupos had
      to Septimania and/or Gasony, and whether or not they were Jewish.

      Added info from elsewhere:

      e-book on families of Gascony, where one can trace connections
      between the Lupos, De Foixs, and others:

      http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/GASCONY.htm#_Toc206814886

      Also here, same medieval geneology site, Toulousse nobility:
      http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/TOULOUSE%20NOBILITY.htm

      And here, same site, Navarre nobility:
      http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NAVARRE%20NOBILITY.htm

      <snip—recounting of thje Lupos who appeared in England, because it is
      already here in the archives—search "Lupo">

      Tim replied:

      Good lord, Terri! I'd long forgotten about that thread.

      >I am trying to trace connections, or see if there is a connection,
      between the Lupos discussed by some of you back then and the family
      of Lupos brought by Henry VIII (many years later, obviously) to the
      English court.<

      Well, I can't speak for the others, but the Lupos I was discussing
      way-back-when were early Gascon (Basque) rulers. And they lived at a
      time when surnames were virtually unknown. In their case, Lupo was a
      given name rather than a family name. Today they are referred to as
      the "house" of Lupo, but back then, probably not.

      >This later family, who are violinists and merchants with some
      connection to France, are usually identified on Sephardic Jews from
      Milan by way of Venice, but that's more because 1) they're
      violinists, and the history of the viol and violin would seem to
      connect them more with Italy, and 2) the habit of identifying anyone
      with a "Lupo"-like last name--ie Lupo, Lupa, Lopez--as "Jewish," and
      leaving of secondary importance "from where?--Basque, French, Polish,
      etc. The English Lupos may have a Polish connection, too, at least as
      argued by Roger Prior.

      Yes, there is a tendency to speculate that anyone called "Wolf" would
      have been Jewish, but to my mind this is misguided. When surnames
      started becoming common, Jews were often attributed names by non-Jews
      that were intended to be insulting. "Wolf" is an example of this,
      implying that they were ravenous and bloodthirsty.

      >Connections I am particularly interested in:

      >--Possible connection between English Lupos and Basque merchants

      None that I'm aware of.

      >--Connections between the Lupo and de Foix families after 1300--
      especially any that may still exist in the 1500s, especially between
      Paul de Foix and any member/descendent of the Lupo family<

      That would depend on which Paul de Foix you're referring to. The Foix
      themselves were descendants of the early Gascon dukes, as were most
      of the southern noble families. Naturally there were alliances
      between all of them.

      >--Connections between the Lupo or de Foix families and Poland (yes,
      that may be a reach)<

      Don't know about the Lupos, but Anne de Foix-Candale was the Queen
      Consort of Bohemia and Hungary. Her husband Wladislaw II was a member
      of Poland's royal family, the Jagiellons, his father being Casimir IV
      of Poland and Lithuania. Two of Anne's Habsburg granddaughters were
      married to the last Jagiellon King of Poland, Sigismund II, who died
      childless and was succeeded on his throne by an elected king, Henri
      d'Anjou, who shortly thereafter succeeded his brother Charles IX as
      King Henri III of France, the last Valois king. Following Henri's
      assassination, his cousin Henri de Bourbon, King of Navarre,
      succeeded him as Henri IV of France. Henri IV was also the
      penultimate heir of the Foix dynasty through his mother, being both
      Count of Foix and Viscount of Bearn in his own right.

      >--Any others anyone sees or wants to talk about. As you cans see
      from the threads I've mentioned, some assume a connection between
      this family and alchemy, and/or Grail legends/ and/or Septimania,
      and/or Basque legends, all as possible subjects feeding priory
      legend, and others don't.<

      Well, again, if you're talking about descendants of the Gascon dukes
      referred to collectively as the House of Lupo, then the connections
      are there. They just weren't Jewish.

      >The main female deity was called Mari and lived in a deep
      underground sea far below the Pyrenees. The entrance to her world lay
      at the foot of the holy mountain, called simply la Rhune or the sign.

      From
      http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ Atlantis/ 9678/mythos/ pantheon.
      html

      MARI - The supreme and foremost goddess of the Basque pantheon. She
      is the goddess of thunder and wind, the personification of the Earth.
      The thunder spirit Maju is her consort, and the benign spirit
      Atarrabi and the evil spirit Mikelats are her sons. She protects the
      travelers and the herds, and gives good council to humans. She rides
      through the sky on a chariot pulled by four horses, or on a ram.
      Sometimes she assumes the shape of a white cloud or a rainbow. Mari
      ("queen") is represented as a woman with a full moon behind her head,
      or in an animal shape. Her symbol is a sickle. With the
      Christianization she was degraded to an evil spirit.<

      Ah, well - if we're going to talk about Black Madonnas - "Mouras
      Encantadas" - that's a whole 'nother story!

      TCP

      Terri's reply to Tim's reply:

      Re: old topic: the Lupo family

      > Good lord, Terri! I'd long forgotten about that thread.
      >
      Thank you for being willing to pick it back up after seven years!

      > Well, I can't speak for the others, but the Lupos I was discussing
      way-back-when were early Gascon (Basque) rulers. And they lived at a
      time when surnames were virtually unknown. In their case, Lupo was a
      given name rather than a family name. Today they are referred to as
      the "house" of Lupo, but back then, probably not.
      >

      Any guesses at why someone in that time and place might choose that
      particular name?

      That may be a better clue than direct family connection, based on
      what you've said. That is, if the Lupo brothers pick that name to
      indicate a certain political or family connection, and in doing so
      pick a name that had particular resonance when the early Gascon
      (Basque) rulers picked the given name "Lupo." I'm guessing it didn't
      have much to do with Romulus and Remus, but I may be wrong.


      > >This later family, who are violinists and merchants with some
      > connection to France, are usually identified on Sephardic Jews from
      > Milan by way of Venice, but that's more because 1) they're
      > violinists, and the history of the viol and violin would seem to
      > connect them more with Italy, and 2) the habit of identifying
      anyone
      > with a "Lupo"-like last name as "Jewish,"
      >
      > Yes, there is a tendency to speculate that anyone called "Wolf"
      would have been Jewish, but to my mind this is misguided.

      I agree, especially considering this particular case, and those
      surrounding them. It seems more likely that they're dark-skinned,
      and that, along with the surname "Lupo" for one and the Hebrew word
      play in the name of the other (Kellim), leads to the conclusion that
      they're Jewish. They could as easily be Occitaneans who (in the case
      of Kellim/Kellimo) know some Hebrew, perhaps because of some interest
      in Kaballah.

      > >Connections I am particularly interested in:

      > >--Connections between the Lupo and de Foix families after 1300â€"
      > especially any that may still exist in the 1500s, especially
      between
      > Paul de Foix and any member/descendent of the Lupo family<
      >
      > That would depend on which Paul de Foix you're referring to. The
      Foix themselves were descendants of the early Gascon dukes, as were
      most of the southern noble families. Naturally there were alliances
      between all of them.

      I meant Paul de Foix, son of Jean de Foix the comte de Carmain,
      perhaps author of Les Lettres de Messire de Paul de Foix, archevesque
      de Toloze et ambassadeur pour le roy aupres du pape Gregoire XIII, au
      roi Henry III (there is an argument about the authentiticy of these
      letters. Anyone here want to weigh in on that controversy?)

      This de Foix was an ambassador to England for several years, and like
      the Lupos had a connection to Venice, and was the one sent to England
      to negotiate a marriage between Queen Elizabeth and the Duke of
      Anjou.

      Re: comments on Familists below, Christopher Marsh has noted that the
      crackdown on the English "Family of Love" seem connected in an odd
      way to these marraige negotiations, and irritation on the part of
      Puritans that Elizabeth had so many Familists among her Yeoman of the
      Guard, pre-1580.

      I tried to connect that to Dee in part four of this article--
      http://jwmt.org/v2n12/dee_hermetic.html -- since revised, but
      unfortunately the revision is not on the web. The revised version is
      in our book here:

      http://www.waningmoon.com/publications/books/blackvenus/

      Now I am wondering if, along with the Yeoman of the Guard Marsh
      mentions, there were also "Familists" or, more likely, those with
      similar beliefs, among her musicians and those who imported wine, but
      more on that below.

      > >--Connections between the Lupo or de Foix families and Poland
      (yes,
      > that may be a reach)<
      >
      > Don't know about the Lupos, but Anne de Foix-Candale was the Queen
      Consort of Bohemia and Hungary. Her husband Wladislaw II was a
      member of Poland's royal family, the Jagiellons, his father being
      Casimir IV of Poland and Lithuania. Two of Anne's Habsburg
      granddaughters were married to the last Jagiellon King of Poland,
      Sigismund II, who died childless and was succeeded on his throne by
      an elected king, Henri d'Anjou, who shortly thereafter succeeded his
      brother Charles IX as King Henri III of France, the last Valois
      king. Following Henri's assassination, his cousin Henri de Bourbon,
      King of Navarre, succeeded him as Henri IV of France. Henri IV was
      also the penultimate heir of the Foix dynasty through his mother,
      being both Count of Foix and Viscount of Bearn in his own right.
      >

      Thank you! That's exactly the sort of connection I was looking for.

      Anne de Foix-Candale is a relative of Francois de Foix de Candale
      (1512-94), familiar to mathematicians for his comments on Euclid's
      Elements, and probably familiar to John Dee and his "circle" for the
      same reasons. He also seems to share the idea of a "Hermetic" world
      religion, and his interest in math, like Dee's seems to be
      Hermetically based. Another of Foix de Candale's (or Foix-Candale's)
      works was, in 1579, Le Pimandre de Mercure Trismegiste de la
      Philosophie Chrestienne. He, and a writer he's often compared to,
      Philippe du Plessis de Mornay (1549-1623), who at one time was an
      advisor to Henri of Navarre, draw on the idea that Hermes invented
      the sciences of geometry and astronomy. Mainly Foix-Candale's
      ideas, which are extremely similar to Dee's, are see as an influence
      on du Plessis de Mornay.

      Short explanation/argument in JSTOR article:
      http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0034-4338(197824)31%3A4%3C499%3ADFATHR%
      3E2.0.CO%3B2-9

      Duplessis-Mornay, Foix-Candale and the Hermetic Religion of the World
      Jeanne Harrie
      Renaissance Quarterly, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Winter, 1978), pp. 499-514

      (Anyone who wants to discuss this and does not have access to JSTOR,
      e-mail me offlist and I can send you a "for educational purposes
      only" copy.)

      When I was looking for a connection between Dee, Kelley, Bruno, and
      Foix-Candale, it didn't occur to me to look to Bohemia. . . and this
      one connects to Poland, also. . . that's just perfect, thanks!

      My working assumption, as some of you here know, is that Dee and
      Kelley have particular reasons/connections for the places they wind
      up in on the continent (which include Poland and Bohemia), and since
      there is no real way to describe this group, tracing it is pretty
      difficult. "Hermeticists interested in particular bloodlines" might
      be one way, I suppose. In England and the Netherlands, the "Family
      of Love" works as well as any other descriptor, though it too has its
      problems, one of which is that it didn't exist as a fellowship until
      1540 and dies out by the early 1600s. It works best when looked at as
      a "surfacing" of some larger set of connections.

      Dee and Kelley's patron, the Polish prince Albert Laski, had his own
      circuitous Family of Love connection: of his relatives, Johannes a
      Lasko, lived in Emden, also the hometown of Family of Love "founder"
      Hendrik Niclaes and supposedly a center of Familism. The Familist's
      goal, of becoming "Perfected," sounds not unlike what little we know
      of the Cathar. . . Perfecti, and their name seams to hearken back to
      Eleanor of Aquitaine's "Court of Love." Dee and many of his
      continental connections--de Bry,the Birkmans, Ortelius, and of course
      Bruno--all have connections to the Familists, though in some cases,
      especially that of Bruno, the connection is problematic.

      Its easier to see this group as a subset of a larger group of
      Hermeticists connected to people who I'd describe as
      underground "Perfecti," and who I'd assume have some connection to
      the places Grail romances first appear. I can trace this other ways—
      say, via the Platter family and their connection to Montpellier and
      the Familist booksellers the Birckmanns who Dee gets manuscipts from—
      but no connection is as close to both Elizabeth and, possibly, the
      south of France, as this hard-to-trace group of musicians. . . who
      are now assumed to be Jewish group but perhaps more likely
      Occitanean, perhaps with Polish connections, perhaps around other
      musicians, the Van Wilders or Van Wilde's, who are perhaps related
      to John Dee's mother.

      <snip—pasted in sections of article by Prior, already in archives of
      this list>
    • Terri Burns
      Continuing conversation, reposted with permission: Re: [priory-of-sion] Re: old topic: the Lupo family From: Terri Burns Subject: [priory-of-sion]
      Message 2 of 2 , Dec 2, 2008
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        Continuing conversation, reposted with permission:

        Re: [priory-of-sion] Re: old topic: the Lupo family

        From: Terri Burns <burnst@...>
        Subject: [priory-of-sion] Re: old topic: the Lupo family
        To: priory-of-sion@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 12:23 PM

        >Any guesses at why someone in that time and place might choose that
        >particular name?

        Given the time frame, I'd say there were "totemistic" implications.
        These
        people were probably pagan, perhaps nominally Christian at best.

        >That may be a better clue than direct family connection, based on
        what you've said. That is, if the Lupo brothers pick that name to
        indicate a certain political or family connection, and in doing so
        pick a name that had particular resonance when the early Gascon
        (Basque) rulers picked the given name "Lupo." I'm guessing it didn't
        have much to do with Romulus and Remus, but I may be wrong. ;)

        You're right, it probably had nothing whatsoever to do with Romulus
        and Remus. And "Lupo" would be the Latin transliteration of the
        Gascon "Ortzo", so as these rulers weren't Latin speakers, they
        probably didn't called themsleves "Lupo" specifically.

        >I meant Paul de Foix, son of Jean de Foix the comte de Carmain,
        perhaps author of Les Lettres de Messire de Paul de Foix, archevesque
        de Toloze et ambassadeur pour le roy aupres du pape Gregoire XIII, au
        roi Henry III (there is an argument about the authentiticy of these
        letters. Anyone here want to weigh in on that controversy? )<

        OK, that Paul. My direct ancestor was his first cousin. I don't know
        much about the controversy over his letters. From what little I've
        read (which was probably all of three sentences) it was felt that his
        originals had been embellished or altered prior to publication (many
        years after his death). He was a diplomat and so it wouldn't be
        surprising if sensitive details were extracted.

        >This de Foix was an ambassador to England for several years, and like
        the Lupos had a connection to Venice, and was the one sent to England
        to negotiate a marriage between Queen Elizabeth and the Duke of
        Anjou.<

        He tried to negotiate three marriages between Elizabeth and Valois
        princes -Charles X, Henri III, and the Duc d'Alencon (called Duc
        d'Anjou after his brother Henri succeeded to the throne). Paul was
        also the first ambassador to the court of Mary Stuart after her
        return to Scotland following the death of her first husband, the
        oldest of the Valois brothers, Francois II.

        >Re: comments on Familists below, Christopher Marsh has noted that the
        crackdown on the English "Family of Love" seem connected in an odd
        way to these marriage negotiations, and irritation on the part of
        Puritans that Elizabeth had so many Familists among her Yeoman of the
        Guard, pre-1580.<

        Weren't Familists essentially Anabaptists?

        >Anne de Foix-Candale is a relative of Francois de Foix de Candale
        (1512-94), familiar to mathematicians for his comments on Euclid's
        Elements, and probably familiar to John Dee and his "circle" for the
        same reasons. He also seems to share the idea of a "Hermetic" world
        religion, and his interest in math, like Dee's seems to be
        Hermetically based. Another of Foix de Candale's (or Foix-Candale' s)
        works was, in 1579, Le Pimandre de Mercure Trismegiste de la
        Philosophie Chrestienne. He, and a writer he's often compared to,
        Philippe du Plessis de Mornay (1549-1623), who at one time was an
        advisor to Henri of Navarre, draw on the idea that Hermes invented
        the sciences of geometry and astronomy. Mainly Foix-Candale' s
        ideas, which are extremely similar to Dee's, are see as an influence
        on du Plessis de Mornay.<

        Despite the fact that Foix-Candale was a staunch Catholic apologist
        while Plessis was a Protestant!

        >When I was looking for a connection between Dee, Kelley, Bruno, and
        Foix-Candale, it didn't occur to me to look to Bohemia. . . and this
        one connects to Poland, also. . . that's just perfect, thanks!

        You're welcome.

        TCP

        Terri's reply to Tim's reply:

        > OK, that Paul. My direct ancestor was his first cousin. I don't
        know much about the controversy over his letters. From what little
        I've read (which was probably all of three sentences) it was felt
        that his originals had been embellished or altered prior to
        publication (many years after his death). He was a diplomat and so
        it wouldn't be surprising if sensitive details were extracted.
        >

        > He tried to negotiate three marriages between Elizabeth and Valois
        princes - Charles X, Henri III, and the Duc d'Alencon (called Duc
        d'Anjou after his brother Henri succeeded to the throne). Paul was
        also the first ambassador to the court of Mary Stuart after her
        return to Scotland following the death of her first husband, the
        oldest of the Valois brothers, Francois II.

        <snip--this sub-topic picked up again below>

        >
        > Weren't Familists essentially Anabaptists?

        It depends who you read. The English "Familists," with the notable
        exception of John Dee and a few others, seem generally much more
        clannish than their counterparts in the Low Countries. In England,
        the conventional view is to view them as one of a group of
        Protestant "dissenters" that the Puritans cracked down on.

        Since part of their belief was to dissimulate when questioned, it is
        very difficult to know what they believed, actually, beyond a few
        basic tenets. They believed in becoming "Perfected," looked at
        Biblical passages as what we'd call a grand metaphor of
        transubstantiation, believed in a mystical transformation of the
        flesh, and believed in the "mutual incorporation or implanting of God
        and human, to the point where an effective unity was achieved."
        Sounds like "as above so below" to me, or at least, they provide an
        easy group for Hermetic beliefs to meld with. They allowed their
        members to maintain connection to whatever what person's religious
        affiliation was, while being a Familist. So it seems that while
        later writers considered themselves a Protestant dissenter group,
        they did not consider themselves Protestant or Catholic and in the
        Netherlands at least had Jewish members.

        After 1600 the remaining English Familists seem absorbed into the
        Quaker movement and many move to the English colonies.

        While Marsh sees the English Family of Love as a movement not so
        cosmopolitan or well-connected as its European counterparts, and I
        agree, he can never really explain why so many of Elizabeth I's
        Yeoman of the Guard have Familist connections; he also argues for
        French Familist connections to someone around the Duc d'Alencon but I
        do not recall his exact evidence-- I know he is not referring to Paul
        de Foix specifically, though logically I'd think he must be looking
        at someone around or connected to de Foix, who must connect to
        someone around or connected to Elizabeth. John Dee is one plausible
        candidate, since he seems involved in or is giving advice about the
        same subject and writes comments about it in his diary. I'd think
        there are also other plausible candidates who are harder historically
        to see.

        At the other extreme (from looking at the Familists as a dissenter
        group relate to the Anabaptists), Frances Yates describes the "Family
        of Love" as a secret society and speculated about grades of
        initiation; in his satiric play, "The Family of Love," that is
        certainly how Thomas Middleton portrays them-- as a group going off
        to meetings and "exercises" filled with sexual innuendo, and giving
        secret signs. His satire is not unique, but its also satirizing a
        group that by that time really has ceased to exist. When a 1641
        satire of (English) Family meetings described them being held in the
        Surrey woods and consisting of "obscene readings from Virgil,
        exaltations of Cupid, communal meals, and, of course, sex," it
        satirizes a group that has been gone for almost two generations, but
        its "interesting" that the woods chosen are near the home ground of
        John Dee and his wife's family, the Fromonds.

        The Family of Love by all accounts grows out of the particular
        situation in the Netherlands in the 1540s and is strongest there, but
        by the late 1570s also has members in Germany, France, England and
        Spain; the Familists preached a religious tolerance. If Dee's mother
        was from the Netherlands or the daughter of someone from the
        Netherlands, as I suspect, then that might be the connection. But I
        also am sure that the "Family of Love" to some degree just provides a
        convenient cover for "Hermetic" activities, for some people, but not
        necessarily for everyone.

        >
        > >Anne de Foix-Candale is a relative of Francois de Foix de Candale
        > (1512-94), familiar to mathematicians for his comments on Euclid's
        > Elements, and probably familiar to John Dee and his "circle" for
        the
        > same reasons. He also seems to share the idea of a "Hermetic" world
        > religion, and his interest in math, like Dee's seems to be
        > Hermetically based. Another of Foix de Candale's (or Foix-Candale'
        s)
        > works was, in 1579, Le Pimandre de Mercure Trismegiste de la
        > Philosophie Chrestienne. He, and a writer he's often compared to,
        > Philippe du Plessis de Mornay (1549-1623), who at one time was an
        > advisor to Henri of Navarre, draw on the idea that Hermes invented
        > the sciences of geometry and astronomy. Mainly Foix-Candale' s
        > ideas, which are extremely similar to Dee's, are see as an
        influence
        > on du Plessis de Mornay.<
        >
        > Despite the fact that Foix-Candale was a staunch Catholic apologist
        while Plessis was a Protestant!
        >

        Yes-- so what do you make of that one? To me it seems not so
        different from Dee being "Protestant" and Bruno being "Catholic," but
        sharing ideas that seem much closer to each other than to the public
        political views espoused by (different strains of) Protestants and
        Catholics.

        LVX,

        Terri

        Tim's reply to Terri's reply:

        --- In priory-of-sion@ yahoogroups. com, Janicot <janicot1@.. .>
        wrote:


        >I didn't realize that he was also an ambassador to Mary Stuart. Any
        >idea why he was the particular ambassador chosen in these cases?

        Aside from the fact that he took a tolerant view of Protestants,
        Catherine de Medici trusted him implicitly. He served as her
        confessor for a time; another of his cousins was one of the Queen's
        ladies-in-waiting. There was also a blood connection between
        Catherine and Paul, and her private lands in the south completely
        encircled those of the Foix-Carmains.

        >Since part of their belief was to dissimulate when questioned, it is
        very difficult to know what they believed, actually, beyond a few
        basic tenets. They believed in becoming "Perfected," looked at
        Biblical passages as what we'd call a grand metaphor of
        transubstantiation , believed in a mystical transformation of the
        flesh, and believed in the "mutual incorporation or implanting of God
        and human, to the point where an effective unity was achieved."
        Sounds like "as above so below" to me, or at least, they provide an
        easy group for Hermetic beliefs to meld with. They allowed their
        members to maintain connection to whatever what person's religious
        affiliation was, while being a Familist. So it seems that while
        later writers considered themselves a Protestant dissenter group,
        they did not consider themselves Protestant or Catholic and in the
        Netherlands at least had Jewish members.<

        Hmm...and did you say you saw parallels to the Cathars?

        >At the other extreme (from looking at the Familists as a dissenter
        group relate to the Anabaptists) , Frances Yates describes the "Family
        of Love" as a secret society and speculated about grades of
        initiation; in his satiric play, "The Family of Love," that is
        certainly how Thomas Middleton portrays them-- as a group going off
        to meetings and "exercises" filled with sexual innuendo, and giving
        secret signs. His satire is not unique, but its also satirizing a
        group that by that time really has ceased to exist. When a 1641
        satire of (English) Family meetings described them being held in the
        Surrey woods and consisting of "obscene readings from Virgil,
        exaltations of Cupid, communal meals, and, of course, sex," it
        satirizes a group that has been gone for almost two generations, but
        its "interesting" that the woods chosen are near the home ground of
        John Dee and his wife's family, the Fromonds.<

        They sound a good deal more Pagan than Cathar.

        >> Despite the fact that Foix-Candale was a staunch Catholic apologist
        while Plessis was a Protestant!<<

        >Yes-- so what do you make of that one? To me it seems not so
        different from Dee being "Protestant" and Bruno being "Catholic," but
        sharing ideas that seem much closer to each other than to the public
        political views espoused by (different strains of) Protestants and
        Catholics.<

        Seems plausible.

        TCP

        More discussion follows concerning the Family of Love. . . I'll
        repost it, but it's a subject pretty much already discussed at length
        here. As far as the discussion of what the Cathars believed in, it
        might be easier to just join the priory list and read the ten year
        long debate on that in their archives!

        Tim:
        >
        > Hmm...and did you say you saw parallels to the Cathars?

        LOL—I really (re)opened something with that one, didn't I? Maybe I
        can just write "old topic: Cathar beliefs" or "never old topic:
        Cathar beliefs." Actually the surface argument that would be easiest
        to make is that the more intellectual among them have a network of
        family and some other sort of connections that seem to run to the
        south of France. Of course that does not necessarily connect them to
        the Perfecti; neither does a belief in being "Perfected." It would
        take a much longer argument, which I'm finding easier to put together
        by following families and university and court connections than
        statements of belief.

        To suggest parallels with the Cathars would involve weighing in on
        various arguments that others can easily find in the archives, and
        also entertaining the possibility that an "inner circle" of initiates
        or priests and priestesses had beliefs somewhat different from that
        of the outer group, even as at the same time one has to look for a
        relation between religious theory and social practice. I'd be happy
        to elaborate on that when I can, but maybe not this morning.

        But, to make the argument, one would have to not see the Cathars as
        dualists derived from the Bogomils, or "anti-flesh" and "anti-world"
        in the particular way some theologians have taken it. One can
        believe in a "transmutation of the flesh" without it becoming a
        completely Manichean view. It also helps the particular argument
        I've been following around if one assumes that, because of trade
        routes among other things, the Cathar Perfecti absorbed many
        different spiritual traditions, including Hermetic traditions, and
        that their own "origin" was a syncretic flowering of those traditions
        made possible by tolerance and openness to combining different
        traditions. An infusion (or some claim origin) of the Cathar
        movement in Germany was unfortunately what made Himmler so interested
        in it. A more plausible argument to me is to look for the infusion
        of ideas from the east as well as (or more than) the north; an
        infusion of Jewish and Moslem mysticism as well; that raises a host
        of other questions that have been discussed here in the past and I'm
        happy to revisit them, but maybe not in this post!

        Related to this is the role of women in the Cathars, connection or
        not to Grail legends, connection or not to Mary Magdalene, connection
        or not to alchemy . . more old or never old topics.

        The easiest surface parallel between Cathars and Familists is
        religious and gender tolerance and pacifism, though those aren't in
        and of themselves enough to hang a theory on. With both, there also
        seems a marked difference between the folk and aristocratic version,
        and I would not assume for a moment that poorly educated non-
        aristocratic non-merchant class English Familists would see or be
        interested in any Cathar connection; nor do I think poor Cathars had
        the time or energy to ponder how their theology might be different
        from mainstream Catholicism and why. Both groups tended to take on
        a "local flavor;" in terms of 16th century Familists, I think this
        became one of the problems as the "local flavor" of gender issues in
        southern France were rather different than those in Bohemia and those
        rather different than those in England. Another parallel between the
        two, among the educated or wealthy middle class members, is the
        connection to a merchant network that also is a medium for
        intellectual exchange.

        Within that network, it is hard to say exactly what beliefs are
        because those of the inner circle, I speculate, would not be made
        public; and the intellectual exchange and spiritual practices of the
        elite does not likely constitute the belief system of all members.
        If for example we posit that John Dee was an English Familist and
        Elizabeth I sympathetic, through 1580 at least, to English Familists,
        and tie this argument to, for example, Albert Laski and Giordano
        Bruno and Christopher Plantin, we run into these sorts of connections
        and problems. First, there's the connection/problem of the English
        Familist Yeoman of the Guard and their connection to "Sephardic Jews"
        in the musical consorts who may not be Jewish at all and seem more
        connected to Gascony; there is the problem/connection between these
        groups and Elizabeth and Dee and Dee's continental intellectual
        associations. Many of Dee's associates outside of England were
        Familists: Antwerp printer Christopher Plantin (who published the
        works of Family of Love founder Henrik Niclaes), mapmaker Abraham
        Ortelius, the Birkmanns, booksellers from Cologne who had a store in
        London and whose son was a friend of the Platters I mentioned in the
        other post. Otherscertainly were sympathizers, and knew others who
        were or likely were: for instance, Johannes Theodorus de Bry,
        the "Palatine Publisher" made much of by Frances Yates in The
        Rosicrucian Enlightenment. De Bry had close ties to Niclaes's
        publisher Plantin, both of whom had ties to the Frankfurt printer
        Wechel, who reprinted Dee's Hieroglyphic Monad in 1591, provided
        Giordano Bruno with a place to stay, and published some of Bruno's
        more interested geometric drawings. No one (myself included) has
        called Bruno a Familist, but he was interested in a Hermetic "one
        world religion" like some of the others we've mentioned, Foix-Candale
        among them, and to confuse things even more, like Dee and Kelley he
        was probably a spy, perhaps the "Henry Paget" who sent letters to
        Walsingham from the French embassy in England.

        Now, take the same connections/problems and run through the networks
        to French families, the Foix-Candales among the most promising, or go
        north and try to do the same thing with Anglo-Normans in Ireland. It
        gets even more problematic, and starts to run into other rather tired
        and overdone subjects like the Templars and Hospitallers. It is
        easiest to trace via family or mercantile or religious/university
        connection than stated belief.

        If "Cathar" or other heretical beliefs exists within the "Family of
        Love," I would say that's because it is vehicle that can be used, at
        the time the Family flourishes, through about the time that the
        marraige negotiations led by de Foix break off, which curiously
        happens just before Edward Kelley arrives at John Dee's door.

        The movement itself doesn't even start until 1540—very interesting
        date, imho.

        I think I've managed to evade your question rather than answer it.


        TMB:
        > >At the other extreme (from looking at the Familists as a dissenter
        > group relate to the Anabaptists) , Frances Yates describes
        the "Family
        > of Love" as a secret society and speculated about grades of
        > initiation; in his satiric play, "The Family of Love," that is
        > certainly how Thomas Middleton portrays them-- as a group going off
        > to meetings and "exercises" filled with sexual innuendo, and giving
        > secret signs. His satire is not unique, but its also satirizing a
        > group that by that time really has ceased to exist. When a 1641
        > satire of (English) Family meetings described them being held in
        the
        > Surrey woods and consisting of "obscene readings from Virgil,
        > exaltations of Cupid, communal meals, and, of course, sex," it
        > satirizes a group that has been gone for almost two generations,
        but
        > its "interesting" that the woods chosen are near the home ground of
        > John Dee and his wife's family, the Fromonds.<
        >
        TCP:
        > They sound a good deal more Pagan than Cathar.

        Or a Hermetic mix of both depending on who is the practicioner?

        The 1641 satire does sound much more pagan, I completely agree, but
        keep in mind the satire writer may have little idea of about what he
        is satirizing. I'm reminded of some of the Order of the Assassins
        slurs about the Sufis as pedophiles or homosexual mendicants, when
        Sufi love poetry supposedly springs from yet another belief system
        that supposedly renounces the flesh, worldliness, and sexuality. The
        Family of Love "exercises" satirized by Middleton (a generation
        before the 1641 satire) as partner-swapping would be described by the
        Familists themselves as group prayer and movements that might seem to
        us more like yoga. But who knows. As far as a pagan connection, I
        would assume that in England the "Family of Love" was much more
        tolerant of the old religion and if one still practiced it, one would
        find as tolerant a "Christian" society as exists by becoming
        Familist. A "pagan" woman who liked growing herbs and engaging in
        practices the church would call "witchcraft" might be much more
        interested in marrying into the Family for those reasons, tolerance
        and a protective front, than any other. The "front," if it is that,
        is pretty short-lived, though.

        LVX,

        Terri
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