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Re: Bacon and other supposed children and relatives of Elizabeth I

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  • Terri Burns
    ... seems ... Elizabeth ... knowing ... Hi, Robert, Just back on-line after the holidays, so sorry it took awhile to reply. Yes, I m very familiar with this
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 4, 2005
      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Robert F"
      <shakasha@L...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Terri:
      >
      > "...As one "for example" that I've mentioned here before . . . it
      seems
      > a staple of the Baconian argument that Francis Bacon was
      Elizabeth
      > I's son. This brings up a myriad of problems. It is possible, I
      > suppose, that she could have had a child without most people
      knowing
      > it that year. She is "missing" at all the right times..."
      > Here is an interesting article that touches on a few of the
      contemporary clues:
      >
      > By "Jon Benson"
      >
      > from Baconiana December 1978
      >

      Hi, Robert,

      Just back on-line after the holidays, so sorry it took awhile to
      reply.

      Yes, I'm very familiar with this argument. But take a moment, if you
      want, and address mine: if, just for argument's sake, we agree that
      Elizabeth *could* have had a child then (and several other times, it
      appears), who is to say that the child was Bacon? Why could that
      child not as easily be the mother of the two brothers to whom the
      First Folio was dedicated? It makes the connection to Dee much
      easier to make, given that she (Mary Sidney, later the Countess of
      Pembroke) was one of his students, and is perhaps the best educated
      woman in England of her generation . . . odd classical and alchemical
      education, given her supposed parentage (the elder Mary Sidney and
      Henry Sidney, who died suddenly as people who are poisoned have a
      habit of doing). The young Mary Sidney is pest known now as Philip's
      sister, who after his supposed death edited and published his most
      famous works, as well as some poems and translations of her own.

      If you want to argue Leicester as Mary Sidney's father in this case,
      as the Baconians do with Bacon, it fits even *better* than with
      Bacon: Mary's "mother" Mary was Leicester's sister.

      By the way, looking for whose sister may be raising a child is a fun
      way to chase around supposedly illegitimate children. At this same
      time, there were also rumors all over the place that another of Dee's
      students, Sir Henry Lee, was Elizabeth I's half-brother. One of the
      only biographies on Lee goes to great length to prove how this
      couldn't be so-- that Lee's mother was connected in no way at all
      with Henry VIII whose "bastard" children by Mary Boleyn, Anne's half-
      sister, are now an accepted part of the geneological record and I
      believe ancestors of Diana Spenser and her sons. Those are the
      Carys/Careys-- also associated with Dee, as are their sons, one of
      whom becomes the Lord Hunsdon of Lord Hunsdon's Men, and also the
      person to whom Elizabeth leaves many of her jewels. But back to
      Henry Lee . . . what biographers never seem to note is that
      his "mother" is the sister of Thomas Wyatt, the first great English
      sonnet writer, who was in love with Anne Boleyn and who launched
      Wyatt's rebellion and died because of it. If you speculate that
      Henry Lee might have been the child of Anne Boleyn and Thomas Wyatt,
      the dates all match and it could be that he, as perhaps Mary Sidney,
      is raised by the sister of his real father. Lee connects easily not
      only with Dee but with Kelley--he's a good friend of courtier Edward
      Dyer, who is sent to retrieve Kelley from Prague and instead stays
      with him for a time studying alchemy.

      John Aubrey, in his gossipy "Lives" (the same one so complementary to
      Dee, that speaks of Bacon as a snake, and mentions Henry Lee as
      Elizabeth's half-brother), talks about how some said Philip and Mary
      Sidney were a bit "too close" for brother and sister, implying
      incest. Assume for a moment that the the younger Mary and
      her "brother" were not really blood relatives at all-- hey, since
      Mary Sidney the elder spoke Spanish and it was her liason with King
      Philip of Spain that kept her brother Robert Dudley/later the Earl of
      Leceister executed when all the other males of the family were
      (Elizabeth referred to her supposed loved as part of three
      generations of traitors, as I recall), what if we imagine Philip
      Sidney was the illegitimate son of Phillip of Spain, who was after
      all his godfather, by Mary Dudley/later Sidney, who was certainly at
      one time Philip's mistress? It starts to make some of Philip
      Sidney's life make more sense, including his odd defense of Leicester
      in the Amy Robsart scandal/murder. Leicester has a habit, it seems,
      of killing people who don't defend him, until he--perhaps--gets
      killed himself. (Curious how he drops dead, the way someone would do
      who was poisoned.)

      Aubrey also suggests Philip Sidney's coffin was empty. If so, it
      might suggest that faking one's death of fleeing the country was
      about the only way to get out of Leicester's employ, at least through
      the first hald of Elizabeth's reign. If Sidney's funeral is a staged
      event (as it has to be, even if he really died), curious at what time
      it takes place-- same time as the execution of Mary Queen of Scots.
      Perhaps in the huge (and possibly fake) funeral for a beloved war
      hero we see the government creating a huge public spectacle to divert
      attention from the execution going on at nearly the same time.

      With the Sidneys--both Marys and Philip--we have people closely
      connected to Dee's circle. Not so with Bacon. He is briefly part of
      the School of the Night/Invisible College/whatever one wants to call
      it, and later goes out of his way to hide that connection. He
      doublecrosses Ralegh and Essex, who are also members of the same
      group (Essex is for a time Dee's neighbor.) If one wanted a perfect
      occult blind, it would be to leave clues that Bacon wrote the plays
      as a sort of red herring . . . because the more one studies his
      politics and aesthetics, the more it becomes clear that by the time
      the King's Men are performing the plays, Bacon is in bed with Cecil
      and his group, actively trying to shut down what is left "above
      ground" of the witch cult and the magickal tradition in the British
      Isles. If someone understands that tradition, they understand that,
      to any surviving members of the witch cult and to whatever "mystery
      school" Dee's magick belongs, Bacon was their sworn enemy.
      Shakespeare was an ally. As one of many, many examples, witness the
      myriad of misogynistic and anti-magick/obscuring of kaballistic
      symbolism in the King James translation of the Bible, which Bacon
      masterminded, or look at Bacon's own thoughts about language, which
      he says should be "transparent," leading to the empiricist school of
      language and philosophy where one word is supposed to have one and
      only one meaning-- we think this man is Shakespeare, who fills his
      sonnets with green language, the hidden symbolic language of the
      occult?!

      I think not. But no offense intended-- like you, I am very use to
      having people disagree with me.

      I do hope that sometime before I die I have time to write a long
      scandalous historical romance about the many illicit romantic liasons
      tying different groups at that time together. Oh, and I have yet
      another theory: maybe the Countess of Pembroke wasn't Elizabeth and
      Dudley's child after all. Maybe Elizabeth just wanted to make it
      look that way (being one of those nefarious witches who sleep with
      multiple people, "virgin" in a little different sense than her spin
      doctors suggest.) Maybe Mary Sidney was the child of Elizabeth and
      Dee! I think I've got it! (Dee and Elizabeth's child couldn't be
      Bacon, of course-- think how wimpy FB looked in a beard.) Now it all
      starts to fall into place!

      (And remember, you read it here first.)

      LVX,

      Terri
    • Terri Burns
      Oops! Better correct one of the more confusing typos . . . ... to ... Mary ... of ... FROM BEING executed when all the other males in the family were ...
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 4, 2005
        Oops! Better correct one of the more confusing typos . . .

        --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Burns"
        <burnst@u...> wrote:

        > John Aubrey, in his gossipy "Lives" (the same one so complementary
        to
        > Dee, that speaks of Bacon as a snake, and mentions Henry Lee as
        > Elizabeth's half-brother), talks about how some said Philip and
        Mary
        > Sidney were a bit "too close" for brother and sister, implying
        > incest. Assume for a moment that the the younger Mary and
        > her "brother" were not really blood relatives at all-- hey, since
        > Mary Sidney the elder spoke Spanish and it was her liason with King
        > Philip of Spain that kept her brother Robert Dudley/later the Earl
        of
        > Leceister
        FROM BEING
        executed when all the other males in the family were
        > (Elizabeth referred to her supposed lover, Dudley, as part of three
        > generations of traitors, as I recall). . . what if we imagine
        Philip
        > Sidney was the illegitimate son of King Phillip of Spain, who was
        after
        > all his godfather, by Mary Dudley/later Sidney, who was certainly
        at
        > one time one of King Philip's mistress? It starts to make some of
        Philip
        > Sidney's life make more sense, including his odd defense of
        Leicester
        > in the Amy Robsart scandal/murder. Leicester has a habit, it
        seems,
        > of killing people who don't defend him, until he--perhaps--gets
        > killed himself. (Curious how he drops dead, the way someone would
        do
        > who was poisoned.)
        >
        > Aubrey also suggests Philip Sidney's coffin was empty. If so, it
        > might suggest that faking one's death of fleeing the country was
        > about the only way to get out of Leicester's employ, at least
        through
        > the first half of Elizabeth's reign. If Sidney's funeral is a
        staged
        > event (as it has to be, even if he really died), curious at what
        time
        > it takes place-- same time as the execution of Mary Queen of Scots.
        > Perhaps in the huge (and possibly fake) funeral for a beloved war
        > hero we see the government creating a huge public spectacle to
        divert
        > attention from the execution going on at nearly the same time.
        >
        > With the Sidneys--both Marys and Philip--we have people closely
        > connected to Dee's circle. Not so with Bacon. He is briefly part
        of
        > the School of the Night/Invisible College/whatever one wants to
        call
        > it, and later goes out of his way to hide that connection. He
        > doublecrosses Ralegh and Essex, who are also members of the same
        > group (Essex is for a time Dee's neighbor.) If one wanted a
        perfect
        > occult blind, it would be to leave clues that Bacon wrote the plays
        > as a sort of red herring . . . because the more one studies his
        > politics and aesthetics, the more it becomes clear that by the time
        > the King's Men are performing the plays, Bacon is colluding with
        Cecil
        > and his group, actively trying to shut down what is left "above
        > ground" of the witch cult and the magickal tradition in the British
        > Isles. If someone understands that tradition, they understand
        that,
        > to any surviving members of the witch cult and to whatever "mystery
        > school" Dee's magick belongs, Bacon was their sworn enemy.
        > Shakespeare was an ally. As one of many, many examples, witness
        the
        > myriad of misogynistic and anti-magick/obscuring of kaballistic
        > symbolism in the King James translation of the Bible, which Bacon
        > masterminded, or look at Bacon's own thoughts about language, which
        > he says should be "transparent," leading to the empiricist school
        of
        > language and philosophy where one word is supposed to have one and
        > only one meaning-- we think this man is Shakespeare, who fills his
        > sonnets with green language, the hidden symbolic language of the
        > occult?!
        >
        > I think not. But no offense intended-- like you, I am very use to
        > having people disagree with me.
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