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Re: Movies, television, and prophecy

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  • Terri Burns
    ... the ... opinion ... it ... But Vincent, your enthusiasm about the show s success aside. . . certainly you would agree that this attitude never made it on
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Vincent
      Bridges <vincent@...> wrote:

      > V: You're welcome... I tried to keep my comments on the images from
      the
      > book and not put too much emphasis on Nostradamus, since in my
      opinion
      > the only thing that it has to do with him is that he may have used
      it
      > or a similar source.

      But Vincent, your enthusiasm about the show's success aside. . .
      certainly you would agree that this attitude never made it on the
      show, at least in a way that anyone but a person already familiar
      with your other work would recognize? You talk about the "end of the
      world" many times, and it is without exception pasted into a larger
      context connecting the images to Nostradamus, and the end of the
      world as conceived by pretty scary, imho, right-wing apocalyptic
      Christian fundamentalists. I know that is not your view. But that
      is the view you've been pretty seamlessly pasted into.



      >
      > >
      > > But by that time, I and my friends were so fed up we could
      scarcely
      > > pay
      > > attention.
      > >

      We had the same reaction. We watched because we knew Vincent said
      there was something good at the end. If I didn't know Vincent, I
      would have clicked it off after the second or third collapse of the
      Twin Towers.

      > > Is there a large gorilla in the midst of this group that no one
      wants
      > > to discuss?

      Oh, there are plenty. Just ask questions until you see something
      that looks like an elephant.



      Doesn't the overt pandering to fears of the apocalypse and
      > > the portrayal of Bin Laden as anti-Christ scare the bejezuz out
      of
      > > anyone here?!?!? What was the intent behind this "documentary,"
      to
      > > continue the Holy War?!?!?
      > >
      > > I thought I was tuning into an intelligent discussion of
      precessional
      > > or astrological or magickal or some kind of symbolism, and I
      watched a
      > > right-wing scare movie. Complete with flashing image after
      flashing
      > > image in not-too-subtle hypnotic technique.


      This also disturbed me. I guess it is what passes for "sexy"
      nowadays.


      A talking head says "end
      > > of the world," then flashes of the twin towers, Bin Laden,
      warfare.
      > > The atomic bomb, though that never is mentioned in the voice-
      overs, is
      > > also shown exploding several times.
      > >
      > > Yet this is a supposed "documentary" on the HISTORY channel.
      Some of
      > > you, Terri David Liz, had ideas about "history" regarding Dee's
      > > portrayal in a MOVIE. . . okay friends. . . at least in the
      MOVIE, we
      > > are told that prophecy can't be attached to any individual or
      what
      > > will
      > > happen to that person. `King Phillip and the Spaniards are made
      into
      > > cardboard evil Inquisitors in this MOVIE, okay.


      I can't comment on this much so I have not really jumped into the
      discussion. As a rule I don't like costume dramas much, so I didn't
      see the first of these movies. It does seem to show more about the
      filmaker's fantasy than history, but then so do most historical
      movies I've seen.



      But not anywhere near
      > > like what I just watched, in what was supposed to be reporting.
      Over
      > > and over, I listened to some voice over say this image is
      that. . .
      > > here is Pope Benedict or someone or another. . . as if this is a
      > > FACT?!?!?
      > >
      > > According to who? All I see is a watercolor. According to
      > > Nostradamus? The image? I have never watched so much
      interpretation
      > > and speculation presented as fact. Calling the little sketch in
      the
      > > wheel New York City . . . oh my goddess what was that about?!?!?
      >
      > V: That was about my former co-author's imagination and his need to
      be
      > on TV...
      >

      Are you sure he's not the only one?



      > >
      > > If this "documentary" is the sort of history you folks on this
      group
      > > prefer, I am frightened.
      > >

      We're not monolithic here. I think a cursory glance at the archives
      will show that if nothing else!


      > > After two hours of it, what I can remember is lots of fear-
      pandering
      > > against Moslems and pictures of Bin Laden and the Twin Towers,
      and
      > > flashing talking heads. They spoke so fast, it was hard to know
      what
      > > was about Nostradamus and what about these images. It sounds like
      > > there is no evidence at all that these images have any
      connection to
      > > Nostradamus. Did those of you who watched it understand a
      connection
      > > that I did not hear because I was getting, you know, emotional
      and
      > > like
      > > Mad-City liberal? OK, somebody more than a lifetime later enters
      > > the "N" word into a ledger, ok, other than that.

      Vincent posted what he thinks is the most plausible history of these
      drawings on the Fifth Way list. You might want to read it. Vincent,
      you're more than welcome to repost that here if you'd like.


      > >
      > > The paper connecting these drawings to Cardinal Barbarino or
      whatever
      > > his name is-- that dates from the 1700s, right? But the B guy is
      > > before that?
      > >
      > > That means really nobody knows where these pictures came from at
      all,
      > > except they wind up in the Vatican. Yes? No?
      >
      > V: No, we don't...
      >
      > >
      > > The flaming tower that is flashed over and over and made out as
      a Twin
      > > Tower connection looks to me like a Tarot Card Image. OK, so a
      > > watercolor artist is drawing the lightening struck tower, and is
      taken
      > > over by an astral Nostradamus walk-in.
      >
      > V: Yes indeed, it was compared to the tarot images, an important
      clue,
      > imho... These were my tarot cards they used in the show, by the
      way...
      >
      > >
      > > I like my explanation. It makes just as much sense. And I don't
      have
      > > to hate Moslems to have it.
      > >
      > > A friend said, if you really read Nostradamus, which I don't, he
      says
      > > the end of the world happens sometime around 3700 AD, not 2012.
      > >
      > > Yes? No?
      >
      > V: Nostradamus doesn't say it, the images in the book say it... The
      > quatrains do in fact extend to 3789 AD...
      >

      That seems a very, very large problem in connecting them to the
      images.



      >
      > >
      > > I respect the opinion of most of you here-- what are you seeing
      that I
      > > am missing?
      > >
      > > LVX,
      > >
      > > Kris
      > >
      > >
      >
      > V: The main value of the show was that it introduced the current
      > galactic alignment into a very broad, 3.6 million viewers, main
      stream
      > consciousness. For more on the book of images and what they
      suggest,
      > see my new book... Coming Soon...
      >


      I'd love to hear more about your book.

      In terms of the value of introducing the galactic alignment to 3.6
      million viewers, I think you are treading on dangerous grounds.
      Hitler did a pretty spectular job of introducing the Flyfot cross
      (swastika) and sign of the Zelator (Heil sign) to mass consciousness.
      Few would call that a good thing. I'm pretty certain that the
      occultists who used those symbols were horrified.

      Understanding a complex, long-secret idea, and using that
      understanding to help change consciousness at the end of an age is
      one thing. . . taking the surface meaning--"end of the world" of an
      idea, stripping it of its occult context, and giving it as
      ammunication to right-wing whackos is rather something different,
      imho.

      I hope I am wrong. But if any would care to shift the discussion
      here back to Dee, or Dee and Shakespeare, I think that is one of the
      lessons of that age. If one thinks--as many of us on this list do--
      that much of the Shakespearean corpus is a "carrier wave," so to
      speak, for encoded information, what is rather depressing is how that
      information informs when taken as straightforward, i.e. non-encoded.

      Look at the "Tempest," for instance. Many (Frances Yates being the
      most famous but not the first)argue that Prospero is based on Dee,
      and Miranda perhaps based on his daughter Katharine. The Milan
      connections make another tantalizing esoteric sub-text. The wrecked
      ship, if staged correctly, provides a visual Tree of Life; the island
      a miniature Globe; the marraige a tableau of the ideas encoded into
      the Chymical Wedding of CR; we could go on and on for pages. At the
      end, Prospero releases his teaching to any who can understanding
      them, suggesting one becomes "elect" or "illuminated" not by
      bloodline, but by how well they understand the ideas encoded in the
      play. When understood esoterically, it is a beautiful, freeing
      message.

      But look at the character Caliban, and how he appears to those who
      only see the surface. Stripped of any magickal or esoteric meaning,
      we have a clustering of anti-Irish slurs that become transferred into
      anti-indigenous "New World" slurs, the very same stereotypes used in
      Ireland and the New World to justify genocide and later, Manifest
      Destiny.

      Sound like an extreme argument? Read analyses like that of Takaki in
      _A Different Mirror: A History of Multicultural America_. What made
      most of Shakespeare's viewers laugh at Caliban was their fear and
      contempt of those different from themselves, which the play "plays'
      upon to justify the contempt every other character holds Caliban in,
      and to justify brutalizing him whenever necessary. More citations
      available for any who want them. The Tempest, on the surface, is a
      play that (among many other things) regularizes slavery, and asserts
      that some people/spirits just "should" be slaves.

      That is not what I see when I watch the Tempest, or most of you here,
      but that's because most of you are more interested in encoded
      meanings. We're a tiny part of the population.

      The understanding that survived the best was that carried by the pop-
      culture. The same argument has been made, by many, at length
      (citations available) about Dee's idea of British empire. As I learn
      more about his magic, I am quite certain his intent was not to create
      a colonial empire of the sort that resulted. But those who look at
      what he proposed, stripped of magickal context, conclude that what
      Dee proposed to Elizabeth was exactly what resulted: the conquering
      British Empire. I think Dee would find that rather horrifying.
      Again, citations available.

      My point in the above diatribe is: I think that when one puts
      esoteric ideas out into popular culture, the mass intent created by
      mass consciousness (or caused by a few non-benovolent fear- and hate-
      inducing puppetmasters behind the scenes, in Dee's day people like
      Cecil; today right-wing apocalyptic Bush-ites) will be much stronger
      than the ability of an esoteric idea of symbol to "defend"
      or "explicate" itself.

      Any thoughts from the rest of you?

      LVX,

      Terri
    • Vincent Bridges
      ... Here ya go: Hi Cash, Good questions, my man, comments below: ... V: I was interviewed twice for a total of about eight hours. Most of my comments didn t
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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        On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Terri Burns wrote:
        > .
        >
        > Vincent posted what he thinks is the most plausible history of these
        > drawings on the Fifth Way list. You might want to read it. Vincent,
        > you're more than welcome to repost that here if you'd like.
        >

        Here ya go:


        Hi Cash,

        Good questions, my man, comments below:


        On Nov 1, 2007, at 1:00 AM, cashgood777@... wrote:

        > V I hope you are up for some questions . Dr Turi sayes he was
        > interviewed for a day to get just a minute on air , how about you were
        > you interviewed for some time , how long ?

        V: I was interviewed twice for a total of about eight hours. Most of my
        comments didn't make the show; supposedly they were saving me for the
        finale... I also wrote the basic outline material for what became the
        script, did the original research and made suggestions for the Italian
        researchers, and worked closely with the design people on the look of
        the last segment.

        >  
        > Is the book just these water colors , or is there more we were not
        > showned ?

        V: There are three text sections in Latin in addition to the 80 images.
        They are all by different authors and were written at different times.
        One is an attempt to connect the images to St. Malachy's prophecies
        about the Papacy, another, the latest in time, explains the connection
        to Cesare de Nostradame and Cardinal Berberini and was probably written
        by the Vatican LIbrarians around 1790 or so. The third is on the back
        of the last image and is the oldest, dating to the time when the images
        were copied, roughly 1540 or so. This text is the more important. It
        says: “Apocalyptic predictions by Anito Efesio, prince of painters of
        his epoch, later clarified by the prophetic inspiration of Abbot
        Ioachim, Tommaso Guidini of Saint John’s, by approval of the most pious
        Carthusian Fathers, copied and restored it in the year of our lord 1343
        from the corruption of time and corrosion inflicted by the conflicts of
        this place.”

        There are indeed many more images that were not shown in the program.


        >  
        > How is the book bowned ? who numbered the plates ? like you said books
        > at this time were phyolio not bowned , do we now who bowned the book ?
        > Why or was there any rime or reason to the sequance of the plates ?

        V: The manuscript was bound at the time it entered the Italian National
        Library in the 1840s and the collection was bound with no sense of
        order, the pages numbers being add much later.


        >  
        > Who was Pivoli 1888 how did he get the book ? Hand writing experts in
        > the show said that not Nostradomas's handwriting , was the signiture
        > his ?

        V: We have absolutely no idea who was Pivoli was. He sold a lot of rare
        manuscripts, all possibly from the Vatican Library to what would become
        the National Library in 1842. The 1888 is the original catalogue number
        of the manuscript.


        >  
        > In the show the handeling of the book was realy wiered . The copy of
        > the water mark page that seem to be a copy is being handled with
        > gloves good . While the semindly scollars have gloves good . The lab
        > tec at the most scollerly scientific lab around is fliping through 15
        > th century doucment like a copy of Playboy , real bad .

        V: Yep, I'm getting the complete transcripts of all the information
        from the Italian tests for my book, but I think that was a modern copy
        not the original, but you never know...


        >  
        >  There is some thing in this that dosent smell right . 1629 the book
        > is given to the Vadican Lib Cd Barberani , this is 106 years after
        > Nostradomas was born in 1503 I didnt catch when his son was born or
        > when his son died , but 106 yrs was a long life for both men . This is
        > during a time of the plage and a time when living to 40 or 50 was a
        > long life . Then in 1888 a stranger named Pivoli comes to the Lib. in
        > Rome and sells an old book , it goes on the shelf al be it misplaced
        > till when ? It is found by Libraian in Catholic Rome an it is found
        > that this book had come from the Vadican ,when did she run out into
        > the street an ask is anybody intrested in the last book of Nostradonas
        > ? Sounds like the docs found in the Louve Priory of Zion . to good to
        > be true .

        V: Paper and ink on the images are consistent with 16th century, so
        they are not fakes. That means we have to take the comments written on
        the back of the last image very seriously. That means a date of 1348,
        at least, for the original. The collection of images, and there are two
        other partial copies that date from the same period, seem to be the
        "teaching pictures" of a heretical sect that was focused on the
        Apocalypse and alchemy, in the sense we use it in Mysteries. They also
        seem to be the origin point, given that 1348 date, for what would
        become, a century later, the Tarot cards. By the way, that was my
        Visconti-Sforza deck they used in the show.

        This is my idea of how it came to be where it is today:

        Thirty years after Nostradamus’ death, and about the time Cesare was
        working on his history of Provence, Dom Arnold Wion discovered and
        published the enigmatic mottoes of future Popes attributed to St.
        Malachy. They had been circulating privately for perhaps as much as a
        decade before Wion made them public. Also, the Trinitarianism of
        Joachim of Flores was making a come back as part of the new Hermetic
        movement, which included Giodano Bruno and Dr. John Dee.

        Politically, the royal line of France was failing, and King Henry of
        Navarre, a protestant picked by Nostradamus at age 12 as a future king
        of France, became Henry IV of France in 1589. Even though he became
        Catholic to ascend the throne, his supporters saw this as a move toward
        moderation and even a loosening of the Church’s stranglehold. The
        emergence of prophecies implying the eventual end of the Catholic
        Church was an appealing part of this movement.

        This suggests that possibly Cesare held onto this part of his father
        legacy, and then used it to gain favor with the Church at the start of
        the Counter-Reformation. The future Pope Urban VIII might have found
        such a document to be intriguing enough to give to the Abbot Joachim,
        who seems to have been a scholar of St. Malachy’s mottoes. Perhaps he
        was looking for clues to his own elevation.

        The time line is the key. The earliest date, 1343, points to two
        sources for the images; the school of apocalyptic painters associated
        with “Anito Efesio” and the prophecies of Joachim of Flores, which were
        in fact heretical in the mid 1300s. It is possible that this manuscript
        was in Nostradamus’ possession, and that he gave it to his son Cesare,
        who in turn gave it to Cardinal Barberini, for reasons speculated on
        above, however the date on the introduction page suggests another
        possibility.

        That statement is dated 1629, yet calls Pope Urban VIII, as he had been
        for six years, Cardinal Barberini, which raises the immediate suspicion
        that something is not quite right about it. It also says that brother
        Cino gave the manuscript to the Cardinal because he asked the Abbot if
        he could have it. The possible mention of Cesare Nostradamus is damaged
        and very obscure. That doesn’t leave us with much of a connection.

        The only clear mention of Nostradamus, in the heading notes to the two
        pages of St Malachy commentary, must be dated no earlier than 1690, as
        Pope Alexander VIII is mentioned. By then Nostradamus’ fame had grown
        to be as great as the ancient seers, and so the last Abbot Joachim used
        him as reference to confirm the mottoes of St Malachy. The original
        visions of Joachim of Flores have now long disappeared from the
        interpretation and the new, and Church approved, visions of St Malachy
        have replaced them. And they are attributed, strangely enough, to
        Nostradamus as if that made them somehow more relevant.

        What is clear from all this is that whether or not Cesare Nostradamus
        ever owned it, the manuscript is proof of a very heretical and
        apocalyptic movement or society that survived at least until
        Nostradamus’ era. From the pieces we do have, certain suppositions are
        at least possible.

        Assuming the manuscript was done as the note on the last page says in
        1343 and that it sums up the apocalyptic tradition of both Joachim of
        Flores and an obscure group of apocalyptic artists, then it is likely
        that it passed through the hands of Rene D’Anjou, who was a collector
        of apocalyptic manuscripts and obscure artists. He also stands at that
        peculiar junction point in both time and space, Provence in the mid
        1400s, where the last gasps of the Cathar heresy could become the tarot
        cards, and the Holy Grail could be openly searched for, and that Kings
        could still found orders of chivalry with esoteric preoccupations. In
        his last years, one of his physicians was Nostradamus’ maternal
        grandfather, Jean de St. Remy.

        It is just possible that his first teacher and father figure,
        grandfather Jean, did pass on to his bright young pupil an ancient
        volume of mysterious images of heresy and apocalypse that he had
        received for his service to Good King Rene. And if so, then it is easy
        to see why Michael de Nostradame chose not to burn it along with his
        other books and magickal papers, but to pass it along to his son,
        Cesare.

        Cesare used it to leverage information for his history of Provence,
        Cardinal Barberini used it to help make himself Pope, and then later it
        was used to shore up the whole idea of a prophetic arc to the Papacy.
        Around 1790 or so it disappeared into the new Vatican Library, probably
        into the Index or "hidden" Vaults. Fifty years or so later, it is back
        out on the street, in the hands of M. Pivoli, who sells it to origianl
        national collection of Italy. It was shuffled through various rare book
        collections in the National Library until the 1920s when it discovered
        again by Il Duce's version of the SS occult bureau and used as fascist
        propaganda into the 1930s. It was rediscovered in 1982, and a few
        articles were done on its possible connection to Nostradamus. In 1994,
        O. C. Ramotti, a former Italian spook, took it up as proof of his
        decoding of Nostradamus. His book, The Nostradamus Code, has been
        crudely translated into English and published by Inner Traditions.


        >  
        >  
        > Vincent I think you did a good job , we've been friends for along time
        > an I know you can get out there at times . How bad did they chop up
        > what you had to say ? Or did they say what you wonted to say , this
        > may be to open a forum fro this but there are ways to talk freely .

        V: Well, it was like this... I got involved over a year ago, and tried
        to make it a straight up examination of the images. But, Nostradamus
        sells... They did the tests, and they were as inconclusive as I thought
        they would be, and they spent a ton of money doing reenactments in
        France, without me by the way... At that point, the show looked much
        different than what they ended up with. They called me from Salon de
        Provence at the end of the reenactments to ask what I wanted shot from
        the church behind Nostradamus' house. I told them to shoot everything
        on the front of the church and that I'd explain it later... Then a
        month or so later, they fly me to San Antonio and do the interviews. I
        do about two hours, answering their questions, mostly about
        Nostradamus' life and only a small amount on the images. I thought
        Okay, if that's all they want, fine... The check cleared... Then, after
        they put together a rough cut and showed it to the History Channel
        producers, the you know what hit the fan. The History Channel didn't
        like it, no punch, not enough sensationalism. The producer/director
        called me back and said would I like to do it again. He explained the
        problem, and I said that I'd give him something that would blow his
        mind, and if his mind was blown, then I get more money and a credit on
        the show. He agreed. Off to San Antonio again and after a whole day of
        explanations and interview, the entire tone of the show changed. His
        mind was well and truly blown... The show then became the end of the
        world special, and they got my former co-author Jay to back me up and
        Ellie Crystal for a little female newage energy and re-cut the whole
        thing. By September 11, the PR release date, the weirdness was in full
        force. Largest media blitz in the History Channel's history, and it got
        the largest audience, 3.6 million roughly, of any History Channel show,
        won the night on cable, got an audience share above 20% and so on... It
        is the only time that a History Channel show actually made it to
        straight news... So, they like me, they really like me...


        >  
        >  
        > More questions tomarow . I did love you being respected for your
        > talent an given your due . I'm not trying to tear down anything but
        > here are some of my questions .
        >  
        >  
        > Great show
        >  
        > Cash
        >  
        > ___

        Thanks Cash, I do appreciate it...

        VB
        --
        Vincent Bridges

        VincentBridges.com - The Extraordinary Temple of High Weirdness
        http://vincentbridges.com
      • Terri Burns
        ... was ... as a ... Hermetic ... T: Can you explain what you mean by trinitarianism in this context? ... of ... king ... toward ... father ... of ... found
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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          --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Vincent
          Bridges <vincent@...> wrote:

          > This is my idea of how it came to be where it is today:
          >
          > Thirty years after Nostradamus' death, and about the time Cesare
          was
          > working on his history of Provence, Dom Arnold Wion discovered and
          > published the enigmatic mottoes of future Popes attributed to St.
          > Malachy. They had been circulating privately for perhaps as much
          as a
          > decade before Wion made them public. Also, the Trinitarianism of
          > Joachim of Flores was making a come back as part of the new
          Hermetic
          > movement, which included Giodano Bruno and Dr. John Dee.


          T: Can you explain what you mean by "trinitarianism" in this context?


          >
          > Politically, the royal line of France was failing, and King Henry
          of
          > Navarre, a protestant picked by Nostradamus at age 12 as a future
          king
          > of France, became Henry IV of France in 1589. Even though he became
          > Catholic to ascend the throne, his supporters saw this as a move
          toward
          > moderation and even a loosening of the Church's stranglehold. The
          > emergence of prophecies implying the eventual end of the Catholic
          > Church was an appealing part of this movement.
          >
          > This suggests that possibly Cesare held onto this part of his
          father
          > legacy, and then used it to gain favor with the Church at the start
          of
          > the Counter-Reformation. The future Pope Urban VIII might have
          found
          > such a document to be intriguing enough to give to the Abbot
          Joachim,
          > who seems to have been a scholar of St. Malachy's mottoes.

          T: On what do you base this "seems"? That's a very interesting idea.


          Perhaps he
          > was looking for clues to his own elevation.
          >
          > The time line is the key. The earliest date, 1343, points to two
          > sources for the images; the school of apocalyptic painters
          associated
          > with "Anito Efesio" and the prophecies of Joachim of Flores, which
          were
          > in fact heretical in the mid 1300s. It is possible that this
          manuscript
          > was in Nostradamus' possession, and that he gave it to his son
          Cesare,
          > who in turn gave it to Cardinal Barberini, for reasons speculated
          on
          > above, however the date on the introduction page suggests another
          > possibility.
          >
          > That statement is dated 1629, yet calls Pope Urban VIII, as he had
          been
          > for six years, Cardinal Barberini, which raises the immediate
          suspicion
          > that something is not quite right about it. It also says that
          brother
          > Cino gave the manuscript to the Cardinal because he asked the Abbot
          if
          > he could have it. The possible mention of Cesare Nostradamus is
          damaged
          > and very obscure. That doesn't leave us with much of a connection.
          >
          > The only clear mention of Nostradamus, in the heading notes to the
          two
          > pages of St Malachy commentary, must be dated no earlier than 1690,
          as
          > Pope Alexander VIII is mentioned. By then Nostradamus' fame had
          grown
          > to be as great as the ancient seers, and so the last Abbot Joachim
          used
          > him as reference to confirm the mottoes of St Malachy. The original
          > visions of Joachim of Flores have now long disappeared from the
          > interpretation and the new, and Church approved, visions of St
          Malachy
          > have replaced them. And they are attributed, strangely enough, to
          > Nostradamus as if that made them somehow more relevant.
          >
          > What is clear from all this is that whether or not Cesare
          Nostradamus
          > ever owned it, the manuscript is proof of a very heretical and
          > apocalyptic movement or society that survived at least until
          > Nostradamus' era. From the pieces we do have, certain suppositions
          are
          > at least possible.
          >

          Terri:
          The main or clearest supposition I think we could make is that these
          images and Dee (and you say Nostradamus, though for this I have to
          just take your word for it) are all dipping into the same well, so to
          speak.

          You would see the combination of the spiral and the pointers at
          Ophiuchus to be the same in these images as in the Monas, I assume?

          Below, you trace the images back to the Cathars, as I would with some
          of the images used by Dee, though we may or may not have different
          ideas about the route of transmission.

          I am still not sure why anyone needs to tie the images to Nostradamus
          at all, except that using his name, many years later, would be a good
          way to get someone to pay attention later still.

          Connecting them to Rene D'Anjou, on the other hand, has all kinds of
          fascinating implications.

          LVX,

          Terri



          > Assuming the manuscript was done as the note on the last page says
          in
          > 1343 and that it sums up the apocalyptic tradition of both Joachim
          of
          > Flores and an obscure group of apocalyptic artists, then it is
          likely
          > that it passed through the hands of Rene D'Anjou, who was a
          collector
          > of apocalyptic manuscripts and obscure artists. He also stands at
          that
          > peculiar junction point in both time and space, Provence in the mid
          > 1400s, where the last gasps of the Cathar heresy could become the
          tarot
          > cards, and the Holy Grail could be openly searched for, and that
          Kings
          > could still found orders of chivalry with esoteric preoccupations.
          In
          > his last years, one of his physicians was Nostradamus' maternal
          > grandfather, Jean de St. Remy.
          >
          > It is just possible that his first teacher and father figure,
          > grandfather Jean, did pass on to his bright young pupil an ancient
          > volume of mysterious images of heresy and apocalypse that he had
          > received for his service to Good King Rene. And if so, then it is
          easy
          > to see why Michael de Nostradame chose not to burn it along with
          his
          > other books and magickal papers, but to pass it along to his son,
          > Cesare.
          >
          > Cesare used it to leverage information for his history of Provence,
          > Cardinal Barberini used it to help make himself Pope, and then
          later it
          > was used to shore up the whole idea of a prophetic arc to the
          Papacy.
          > Around 1790 or so it disappeared into the new Vatican Library,
          probably
          > into the Index or "hidden" Vaults. Fifty years or so later, it is
          back
          > out on the street, in the hands of M. Pivoli, who sells it to
          origianl
          > national collection of Italy. It was shuffled through various rare
          book
          > collections in the National Library until the 1920s when it
          discovered
          > again by Il Duce's version of the SS occult bureau and used as
          fascist
          > propaganda into the 1930s. It was rediscovered in 1982, and a few
          > articles were done on its possible connection to Nostradamus. In
          1994,
          > O. C. Ramotti, a former Italian spook, took it up as proof of his
          > decoding of Nostradamus. His book, The Nostradamus Code, has been
          > crudely translated into English and published by Inner Traditions.
          >
          >
          > >  
          > >  
          > > Vincent I think you did a good job , we've been friends for along
          time
          > > an I know you can get out there at times . How bad did they chop
          up
          > > what you had to say ? Or did they say what you wonted to say ,
          this
          > > may be to open a forum fro this but there are ways to talk
          freely .
          >
          > V: Well, it was like this... I got involved over a year ago, and
          tried
          > to make it a straight up examination of the images. But,
          Nostradamus
          > sells... They did the tests, and they were as inconclusive as I
          thought
          > they would be, and they spent a ton of money doing reenactments in
          > France, without me by the way... At that point, the show looked
          much
          > different than what they ended up with. They called me from Salon
          de
          > Provence at the end of the reenactments to ask what I wanted shot
          from
          > the church behind Nostradamus' house. I told them to shoot
          everything
          > on the front of the church and that I'd explain it later... Then a
          > month or so later, they fly me to San Antonio and do the
          interviews. I
          > do about two hours, answering their questions, mostly about
          > Nostradamus' life and only a small amount on the images. I thought
          > Okay, if that's all they want, fine... The check cleared... Then,
          after
          > they put together a rough cut and showed it to the History Channel
          > producers, the you know what hit the fan. The History Channel
          didn't
          > like it, no punch, not enough sensationalism. The producer/director
          > called me back and said would I like to do it again. He explained
          the
          > problem, and I said that I'd give him something that would blow his
          > mind, and if his mind was blown, then I get more money and a credit
          on
          > the show. He agreed. Off to San Antonio again and after a whole day
          of
          > explanations and interview, the entire tone of the show changed.
          His
          > mind was well and truly blown... The show then became the end of
          the
          > world special, and they got my former co-author Jay to back me up
          and
          > Ellie Crystal for a little female newage energy and re-cut the
          whole
          > thing. By September 11, the PR release date, the weirdness was in
          full
          > force. Largest media blitz in the History Channel's history, and it
          got
          > the largest audience, 3.6 million roughly, of any History Channel
          show,
          > won the night on cable, got an audience share above 20% and so
          on... It
          > is the only time that a History Channel show actually made it to
          > straight news... So, they like me, they really like me...
          >
          >
          > >  
          > >  
          > > More questions tomarow . I did love you being respected for your
          > > talent an given your due . I'm not trying to tear down anything
          but
          > > here are some of my questions .
          > >  
          > >  
          > > Great show
          > >  
          > > Cash
          > >  
          > > ___
          >
          > Thanks Cash, I do appreciate it...
          >
          > VB
          > --
          > Vincent Bridges
          >
          > VincentBridges.com - The Extraordinary Temple of High Weirdness
          > http://vincentbridges.com
          >
        • Vincent Bridges
          ... V: Interestingly enough that was not what the people who produced the show had in mind, quite the opposite in fact. The History Channel wanted
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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            On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Terri Burns wrote:

            > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Vincent
            > Bridges <vincent@...> wrote:
            >
            > > V: You're welcome... I tried to keep my comments on the images from
            > the
            > > book and not put too much emphasis on Nostradamus, since in my
            > opinion
            > > the only thing that it has to do with him is that he may have used
            > it
            > > or a similar source.
            >
            > But Vincent, your enthusiasm about the show's success aside. . .
            > certainly you would agree that this attitude never made it on the
            > show, at least in a way that anyone but a person already familiar
            > with your other work would recognize? You talk about the "end of the
            > world" many times, and it is without exception pasted into a larger
            > context connecting the images to Nostradamus, and the end of the
            > world as conceived by pretty scary, imho, right-wing apocalyptic
            > Christian fundamentalists. I know that is not your view. But that
            > is the view you've been pretty seamlessly pasted into.

            V: Interestingly enough that was not what the people who produced the
            show had in mind, quite the opposite in fact. The History Channel
            wanted sensationalism, and connections to the present, and pushed for
            that. Okay, my interpretation of the key seven images gave them all the
            sensationalism they could want, and a direct connection to the present
            era, 1992 - 2012, the basic prophecy of the Cross at Hendaye. When the
            production company shifted to that angle, the images and backgrounds
            were added and the script grew very, very dark... But I think the truly
            scary framework of explosions and Bin Laden came from the material they
            had to work with, some which was mine, not from some intent to be
            right-wing fundamentalists. The real problem, and you are correct in
            addressing it, is not that the show was fundi-agitprop, which it
            wasn't, but that so much of what several of the real experts, Peter,
            Ian, Sophie, etc. said got lost in the rush to maintain the illusion of
            Nostradamus' connection to the very last moment and therefore confused
            the images with Nostradamus' work. I told them in the first hour of my
            interview that was no chance of a direct connection because
            Nostradamus' quatrains had only three connections that were close
            enough, but not exact, to suggest an image. They used one of those, the
            JPthe first's death, without any suggestion that it was an extreme
            example. But that's the nature of the beast, in this age of
            sensationalism and video bites.

            >
            > I'd love to hear more about your book.
            >
            > In terms of the value of introducing the galactic alignment to 3.6
            > million viewers, I think you are treading on dangerous grounds.
            > Hitler did a pretty spectular job of introducing the Flyfot cross
            > (swastika) and sign of the Zelator (Heil sign) to mass consciousness.
            > Few would call that a good thing. I'm pretty certain that the
            > occultists who used those symbols were horrified.
            >
            > Understanding a complex, long-secret idea, and using that
            > understanding to help change consciousness at the end of an age is
            > one thing. . . taking the surface meaning--"end of the world" of an
            > idea, stripping it of its occult context, and giving it as
            > ammunication to right-wing whackos is rather something different,
            > imho.
            >
            > I hope I am wrong. But if any would care to shift the discussion
            > here back to Dee, or Dee and Shakespeare, I think that is one of the
            > lessons of that age. If one thinks--as many of us on this list do--
            > that much of the Shakespearean corpus is a "carrier wave," so to
            > speak, for encoded information, what is rather depressing is how that
            > information informs when taken as straightforward, i.e. non-encoded.
            >
            > Look at the "Tempest," for instance. Many (Frances Yates being the
            > most famous but not the first)argue that Prospero is based on Dee,
            > and Miranda perhaps based on his daughter Katharine. The Milan
            > connections make another tantalizing esoteric sub-text. The wrecked
            > ship, if staged correctly, provides a visual Tree of Life; the island
            > a miniature Globe; the marraige a tableau of the ideas encoded into
            > the Chymical Wedding of CR; we could go on and on for pages. At the
            > end, Prospero releases his teaching to any who can understanding
            > them, suggesting one becomes "elect" or "illuminated" not by
            > bloodline, but by how well they understand the ideas encoded in the
            > play. When understood esoterically, it is a beautiful, freeing
            > message.
            >
            > But look at the character Caliban, and how he appears to those who
            > only see the surface. Stripped of any magickal or esoteric meaning,
            > we have a clustering of anti-Irish slurs that become transferred into
            > anti-indigenous "New World" slurs, the very same stereotypes used in
            > Ireland and the New World to justify genocide and later, Manifest
            > Destiny.
            >
            > Sound like an extreme argument? Read analyses like that of Takaki in
            > _A Different Mirror: A History of Multicultural America_. What made
            > most of Shakespeare's viewers laugh at Caliban was their fear and
            > contempt of those different from themselves, which the play "plays'
            > upon to justify the contempt every other character holds Caliban in,
            > and to justify brutalizing him whenever necessary. More citations
            > available for any who want them. The Tempest, on the surface, is a
            > play that (among many other things) regularizes slavery, and asserts
            > that some people/spirits just "should" be slaves.
            >
            > That is not what I see when I watch the Tempest, or most of you here,
            > but that's because most of you are more interested in encoded
            > meanings. We're a tiny part of the population.
            >
            > The understanding that survived the best was that carried by the pop-
            > culture. The same argument has been made, by many, at length
            > (citations available) about Dee's idea of British empire. As I learn
            > more about his magic, I am quite certain his intent was not to create
            > a colonial empire of the sort that resulted. But those who look at
            > what he proposed, stripped of magickal context, conclude that what
            > Dee proposed to Elizabeth was exactly what resulted: the conquering
            > British Empire. I think Dee would find that rather horrifying.
            > Again, citations available.
            >
            > My point in the above diatribe is: I think that when one puts
            > esoteric ideas out into popular culture, the mass intent created by
            > mass consciousness (or caused by a few non-benovolent fear- and hate-
            > inducing puppetmasters behind the scenes, in Dee's day people like
            > Cecil; today right-wing apocalyptic Bush-ites) will be much stronger
            > than the ability of an esoteric idea of symbol to "defend"
            > or "explicate" itself.
            >
            > Any thoughts from the rest of you?
            >
            > LVX,
            >
            > Terri
            > _

            Yep Terri, I agree with you completely... Remember I'm the guy who
            thinks you shouldn't teach astrology except to those who have taken the
            oath of obligation... LOL!

            Here's the deal in a nut shell: Only Nostradamus has enough clout in
            the mass consciousness to actually pull in the main stream. His name
            was connected to a collection of images, rightly or wrongly, that do in
            fact provide solid evidence that some sect or group of heretics in
            southern France knew about the galactic alignment, and its connection
            to the Apocalypse, even down to what the center of the galaxy actually
            looks like. The method of dating by these symbols fits both Fulcanelli
            and a general sense of where in the sky to look, Ophiucus, Sagittarius
            and Scorpio, that is, the center of the galaxy. I explained the images,
            some which they used, but most they didn't, in terms of that alignment
            and of course the end of the world concept of Apocalypse. They used my
            line about apocalypse and unveiling in the voice over, as they later
            used my extinction or enlightenment line.

            But of course, it all boils down to Nostradamus says the end of the
            world in 2012...

            A video bite that they ran on Fox News, Fox & Friends, the Sunday
            morning of the show... I knew then that something was up... However, in
            the end it comes down to this: millions of people have now seen the
            images, and the diagrams of the galactic alignment that would never
            have seen it any other way. A few of these will get it, and in the mean
            time, people all over the planet, 123,000 hits on google, are talking
            about the basic concept "end of the world" in whatever terms they can
            grok it. That, to me, magickally, is nothing but a good thing...

            The fundi/Fox Noise folks are gonna agree with what's on the surface,
            sure it looks Bin Laden is the Anti-christ, even I say Osama/Bush =
            Mabus in the show just before it, which as been on for four years and
            still got 3.2 million that night, but the overall impression is that we
            are in or approaching the season of catastrophe, and that the signs are
            there in the sky for all to see, who can see...

            I just got to announce it, and of course, it becomes controversial. I'm
            just lucky that way...

            VB



            --
            Vincent Bridges

            VincentBridges.com - The Extraordinary Temple of High Weirdness
            http://vincentbridges.com
          • Terri Burns
            ... by ... hate- ... like ... stronger ... the ... Dude, you are a funny guy. I don t think your 3.7 million viewers took any oath of obligation. . . LOL back
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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              > > My point in the above diatribe is: I think that when one puts
              > > esoteric ideas out into popular culture, the mass intent created
              by
              > > mass consciousness (or caused by a few non-benovolent fear- and
              hate-
              > > inducing puppetmasters behind the scenes, in Dee's day people
              like
              > > Cecil; today right-wing apocalyptic Bush-ites) will be much
              stronger
              > > than the ability of an esoteric idea of symbol to "defend"
              > > or "explicate" itself.
              > >
              > > Any thoughts from the rest of you?
              > >
              > > LVX,
              > >
              > > Terri
              > > _
              >
              > Yep Terri, I agree with you completely... Remember I'm the guy who
              > thinks you shouldn't teach astrology except to those who have taken
              the
              > oath of obligation... LOL!
              >

              Dude, you are a funny guy. I don't think your 3.7 million viewers
              took any oath of obligation. . . LOL back at you. Maybe its just
              me, but I'd say the wheel/center of galaxy/Ophiucius connection has a
              little bit to do with astrology. Its the key to the three-fold
              transformation somebody on this group wrote about as the secret of
              alchemy. Forget who.

              Happy Friday, all.

              LVX,

              Terri

              Oh, happy Venus day, all.
            • Liz Forrest
              Apologies Kris, I didn t get to watch the documentary as I live in Ireland. So can t comment, but I can really resonate with your reactions to it! Often feel
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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                Apologies Kris, I didn't get to watch the documentary as I live in Ireland.  So can't comment, but I can really resonate with your reactions to it!  Often feel that way about stuff that's appearing here.  Love, Liz

                On Nov 2, 2007 6:14 PM, Terri Burns <burnst@...> wrote:


                > > My point in the above diatribe is: I think that when one puts
                > > esoteric ideas out into popular culture, the mass intent created
                by
                > > mass consciousness (or caused by a few non-benovolent fear- and
                hate-
                > > inducing puppetmasters behind the scenes, in Dee's day people
                like
                > > Cecil; today right-wing apocalyptic Bush-ites) will be much
                stronger
                > > than the ability of an esoteric idea of symbol to "defend"
                > > or "explicate" itself.
                > >
                > > Any thoughts from the rest of you?
                > >
                > > LVX,
                > >
                > > Terri
                > > _
                >
                > Yep Terri, I agree with you completely... Remember I'm the guy who
                > thinks you shouldn't teach astrology except to those who have taken
                the
                > oath of obligation... LOL!
                >

                Dude, you are a funny guy. I don't think your 3.7 million viewers
                took any oath of obligation. . . LOL back at you. Maybe its just
                me, but I'd say the wheel/center of galaxy/Ophiucius connection has a
                little bit to do with astrology. Its the key to the three-fold
                transformation somebody on this group wrote about as the secret of
                alchemy. Forget who.

                Happy Friday, all.

                LVX,

                Terri

                Oh, happy Venus day, all.


              • Liz Forrest
                Main impression I ve received over the years especially after hearing my son say, This is all wrong. This isn t the way it was supposed to be is that the
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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                  Main impression I've received over the years especially after hearing my son say, "This is all wrong.  This isn't the way it was supposed to be" is that the 'book' we're role-playing in, has been edited recently by someone with a macabre sense of humour or who is ill.  Ill being the mirror-image of Li, as in 'light', may give some clue?  Could be both too.  But if I'm correct in that impression, then even the akashic records are not tamper proof, as Kieran's dreams implied.  Ill U Sion.  ?  Love, Liz

                  On Nov 2, 2007 7:27 PM, Liz Forrest <greenlysard@...> wrote:
                  Apologies Kris, I didn't get to watch the documentary as I live in Ireland.  So can't comment, but I can really resonate with your reactions to it!  Often feel that way about stuff that's appearing here.  Love, Liz


                  On Nov 2, 2007 6:14 PM, Terri Burns <burnst@...> wrote:


                  > > My point in the above diatribe is: I think that when one puts
                  > > esoteric ideas out into popular culture, the mass intent created
                  by
                  > > mass consciousness (or caused by a few non-benovolent fear- and
                  hate-
                  > > inducing puppetmasters behind the scenes, in Dee's day people
                  like
                  > > Cecil; today right-wing apocalyptic Bush-ites) will be much
                  stronger
                  > > than the ability of an esoteric idea of symbol to "defend"
                  > > or "explicate" itself.
                  > >
                  > > Any thoughts from the rest of you?
                  > >
                  > > LVX,
                  > >
                  > > Terri
                  > > _
                  >
                  > Yep Terri, I agree with you completely... Remember I'm the guy who
                  > thinks you shouldn't teach astrology except to those who have taken
                  the
                  > oath of obligation... LOL!
                  >

                  Dude, you are a funny guy. I don't think your 3.7 million viewers
                  took any oath of obligation. . . LOL back at you. Maybe its just
                  me, but I'd say the wheel/center of galaxy/Ophiucius connection has a
                  little bit to do with astrology. Its the key to the three-fold
                  transformation somebody on this group wrote about as the secret of
                  alchemy. Forget who.

                  Happy Friday, all.

                  LVX,

                  Terri

                  Oh, happy Venus day, all.



                • damiana_888
                  ... Ireland. ... Thank you, Liz. What variety of apocalyptic programming appears in Ireland? I d thought perhaps Catholics were less into that flavor of alarm
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 2, 2007
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                    --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Forrest"
                    <greenlysard@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Apologies Kris, I didn't get to watch the documentary as I live in
                    Ireland.
                    > So can't comment, but I can really resonate with your reactions to it!
                    > Often feel that way about stuff that's appearing here. Love, Liz
                    >

                    Thank you, Liz.

                    What variety of apocalyptic programming appears in Ireland? I'd
                    thought perhaps Catholics were less into that flavor of alarm than
                    fundamentalist Protestants.

                    LVX,

                    Kris
                  • Terri Burns
                    ... my son ... is that ... with a ... For what it is worth, Liz, that s about how I see it, too. May we all get well soon and start re-editing. LVX, Terri
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 3, 2007
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                      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Forrest"
                      <greenlysard@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Main impression I've received over the years especially after hearing
                      my son
                      > say, "This is all wrong. This isn't the way it was supposed to be"
                      is that
                      > the 'book' we're role-playing in, has been edited recently by someone
                      with a
                      > macabre sense of humour or who is ill.

                      For what it is worth, Liz, that's about how I see it, too.

                      May we all get well soon and start re-editing.

                      LVX,

                      Terri
                    • Liz Forrest
                      Hi Kris, just about everything for those who get Sky TV (every year/month? more of what has previously been suppressed), though the regular Irish channels (4)
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 3, 2007
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                        Hi Kris, just about everything for those who get Sky TV (every year/month? more of what has previously been suppressed), though the regular Irish channels (4) tend to be more conservative, but the limiting factors are more likely time available and cost.  They do include shows like "Medium", which is an interesting mix of family experience combined with mind-stretching concepts.  Still wondering where Alison's personal experiences and the writers' imaginations diverge.  I can really relate to some of it, having had similar experiences myself, but in a more sporadic way.  One of the reasons I've learned to have respect and patience for the sources within the 'I Magi Nation'!  :-) 

                        Roman catholicism only took over in Ireland under King James, c. -1600 AD (apparently he made a deal with the Vatican, but can't remember where I read about it right now).  Before that it was, back to the time of the Druids, what some term, Celtic Christianity and it seems the closest remaining element known about would be the Culdees.  So Roman catholicism is still a fairly raw veneer, which may explain the prickliness of some in relation to being challenged by other systems, such as Protestant fundamentalism (interesting that it's about the same age!).  Unconsciously the mind rests uneasy with the compromises that have had to be made for survival?  But part of it is that the Druids themselves did not disappear.  They were the early Christian monks in many cases and simply kept a low profile as much as possible.  The Romans called the Irish, the Children of Dis, but others along the way have used them as fodder for their empire-building, etc.  Main strategy as with other countries we are witnessing today, seems to have been to destroy the adults and their memories, leaving dependent and malleable children, and a great deal of modern desensitisation seems based on the Spartan system of brutalising them to make more ruthless warriors.  My guess is that the Druids and witches of 2000 years ago were well aware of the unconscious and its abilities, so planned for the future.  Love, Liz

                        PS:  I've only recently found out that thousands of years ago, in Indian records, one group of priests ruled that the next caste down, the Kshatriya (sp?), the warriors, were not to be given the real 'soma' they created, but a substitute.  Hmmmm.  Wondering if the real soma is a memory/intelligence enhancer?  Does anyone else have J.F. Hewitt's book, The Ruling Races of Prehistoric Times

                        On Nov 2, 2007 9:40 PM, damiana_888 <damiana-777@...> wrote:

                        --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Forrest"


                        <greenlysard@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Apologies Kris, I didn't get to watch the documentary as I live in
                        Ireland.
                        > So can't comment, but I can really resonate with your reactions to it!
                        > Often feel that way about stuff that's appearing here. Love, Liz
                        >

                        Thank you, Liz.

                        What variety of apocalyptic programming appears in Ireland? I'd
                        thought perhaps Catholics were less into that flavor of alarm than
                        fundamentalist Protestants.

                        LVX,

                        Kris


                      • damiana_888
                        ... 1600 AD ... where I read ... Druids, ... remaining ... still a ... relation to ... mind rests ... Mine is very dis-eased with them. You have zeroed in as
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 5, 2007
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                          --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Forrest"
                          <greenlysard@...> wrote:

                          > Roman catholicism only took over in Ireland under King James, c. -
                          1600 AD
                          > (apparently he made a deal with the Vatican, but can't remember
                          where I read
                          > about it right now). Before that it was, back to the time of the
                          Druids,
                          > what some term, Celtic Christianity and it seems the closest
                          remaining
                          > element known about would be the Culdees. So Roman catholicism is
                          still a
                          > fairly raw veneer, which may explain the prickliness of some in
                          relation to
                          > being challenged by other systems, such as Protestant fundamentalism
                          > (interesting that it's about the same age!). Unconsciously the
                          mind rests
                          > uneasy with the compromises that have had to be made for survival?


                          Mine is very dis-eased with them. You have zeroed in as with exacto
                          knife on what I toss and turn about. I do not have the language, or
                          attention span, to write long posts about it. I am dis-eased by
                          experts and dis-eased by the faithful.

                          We have our own spirits here--I walk most mornings between two
                          ancient Lake Goddesses-- but they stayed alive under no veneer. The
                          populations that revered them were killed. You only know they are
                          here is you talk to them and then your dis-ease or wisdom says, keep
                          that to yourself. Then your dis-ease or wisdome says, no, we are in
                          a time where we can't keep it to ourselves or the whole planet will
                          die.


                          But part
                          > of it is that the Druids themselves did not disappear. They were
                          the early
                          > Christian monks in many cases and simply kept a low profile as much
                          as
                          > possible. The Romans called the Irish, the Children of Dis, but
                          others
                          > along the way have used them as fodder for their empire-building,
                          etc. Main
                          > strategy as with other countries we are witnessing today, seems to
                          have been
                          > to destroy the adults and their memories, leaving dependent and
                          malleable
                          > children, and a great deal of modern desensitisation seems based on
                          the
                          > Spartan system of brutalising them to make more ruthless warriors.

                          Here we call is the removal of native children to "Indian" schools.
                          My husband's grandfather survived the famous Carlisle school. Their
                          motto = "Kill the Indian, save the man." Jim Thorpe, a famous
                          athlete, went there.


                          My guess
                          > is that the Druids and witches of 2000 years ago were well aware of
                          the
                          > unconscious and its abilities, so planned for the future.


                          You live in a very mystical place. I looked through the archives
                          reading about your castle. and learned that a local musician from
                          here, stayed there! Do many musicians visit you?

                          Do the spirits there prod you to tell any stories about the old
                          Castle Matrix library or do they tell you to keep still?

                          Do you know W.B. Yeat's work on Fairy lore, and whether he visited
                          castle Matrix when he was collecting it?

                          Here and farther north we have all sorts of fairy legends, and a
                          party of sort in the works. Maybe we can meet in a circle between
                          here and there and dance!

                          LVX,

                          Kris
                        • Liz Forrest
                          Wow, that would be something, a dance, from my point of view I mean, Kris! Haven t managed to do so since my son passed on, the main musician in our family,
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Wow, that would be something, a dance, from my point of view I mean, Kris!  Haven't managed to do so since my son passed on, the main musician in our family, aged 18.  Where are you located, Kris?  I've found many links between America, North, Middle and South, and this place, let alone all the other sacred sites around the globe.  And yes, it's a very special place to me and others, but possibly keeping a low profile to avoid scaring me!  :-)  More later, have to go shop right now.  Love, Liz

                            On Nov 5, 2007 8:10 PM, damiana_888 <damiana-777@...> wrote:

                            --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Forrest"
                            <greenlysard@...> wrote:

                            > Roman catholicism only took over in Ireland under King James, c. -
                            1600 AD
                            > (apparently he made a deal with the Vatican, but can't remember
                            where I read
                            > about it right now). Before that it was, back to the time of the
                            Druids,
                            > what some term, Celtic Christianity and it seems the closest
                            remaining
                            > element known about would be the Culdees. So Roman catholicism is
                            still a
                            > fairly raw veneer, which may explain the prickliness of some in
                            relation to
                            > being challenged by other systems, such as Protestant fundamentalism
                            > (interesting that it's about the same age!). Unconsciously the
                            mind rests
                            > uneasy with the compromises that have had to be made for survival?

                            Mine is very dis-eased with them. You have zeroed in as with exacto
                            knife on what I toss and turn about. I do not have the language, or
                            attention span, to write long posts about it. I am dis-eased by
                            experts and dis-eased by the faithful.

                            We have our own spirits here--I walk most mornings between two
                            ancient Lake Goddesses-- but they stayed alive under no veneer. The
                            populations that revered them were killed. You only know they are
                            here is you talk to them and then your dis-ease or wisdom says, keep
                            that to yourself. Then your dis-ease or wisdome says, no, we are in
                            a time where we can't keep it to ourselves or the whole planet will
                            die.


                            But part
                            > of it is that the Druids themselves did not disappear. They were
                            the early
                            > Christian monks in many cases and simply kept a low profile as much
                            as
                            > possible. The Romans called the Irish, the Children of Dis, but
                            others
                            > along the way have used them as fodder for their empire-building,
                            etc. Main
                            > strategy as with other countries we are witnessing today, seems to
                            have been
                            > to destroy the adults and their memories, leaving dependent and
                            malleable
                            > children, and a great deal of modern desensitisation seems based on
                            the
                            > Spartan system of brutalising them to make more ruthless warriors.

                            Here we call is the removal of native children to "Indian" schools.
                            My husband's grandfather survived the famous Carlisle school. Their
                            motto = "Kill the Indian, save the man." Jim Thorpe, a famous
                            athlete, went there.


                            My guess
                            > is that the Druids and witches of 2000 years ago were well aware of
                            the
                            > unconscious and its abilities, so planned for the future.

                            You live in a very mystical place. I looked through the archives
                            reading about your castle. and learned that a local musician from
                            here, stayed there! Do many musicians visit you?

                            Do the spirits there prod you to tell any stories about the old
                            Castle Matrix library or do they tell you to keep still?

                            Do you know W.B. Yeat's work on Fairy lore, and whether he visited
                            castle Matrix when he was collecting it?

                            Here and farther north we have all sorts of fairy legends, and a
                            party of sort in the works. Maybe we can meet in a circle between
                            here and there and dance!

                            LVX,

                            Kris


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