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Re: The Scientific Literature Transmitted through the Incunabula

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  • Terri Burns
    ... I ve put it in the files section as a .zip file, which is the only way I could make it fit, and deleted two others-- the letter between Dee and Mercator
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 1, 2004
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      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth
      Forrest" <greenlysard@l...> wrote:

      > The Scientific Literature Transmitted through the Incunabula
      > > George Sarton
      > > Osiris, Vol. 5. (1938), pp. 41-123+125-245.
      >
      > This really attracts my interest also, Terry.

      I've put it in the files section as a .zip file, which is the only
      way I could make it fit, and deleted two others-- the letter between
      Dee and Mercator (which I plan to put back up as soon as I reduce the
      file size-- it was way to large for a short article)-- and the Jewish
      Historical Society's articles on the proceedings against Dr. Lopez,
      who was likely an innocent caught up in the whole death dance going
      on between Elizabeth, Cecil, and Essex, but someone we've never got
      to in the discussion in this group, much less connected to Dee. If
      we ever do, I'll put it back up. (Actually what I hope to do in
      January is transfer most of these files to other web space, sin cehte
      space allotted for Yahoo e-groups is really small.)

      Cheers!

      Terri
    • Robert F
      ... Interesting ideas. Maybe they knew how to use the numbers. Or mesh with them, so to speak. Vibrate maybe? I suspect that numbers have characteristics and
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 1, 2004
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        > >
        > > Is this what our mathematically-minded ancestors meant by fate?
        > That the numbers are pre-programmed? But we've already seen that
        > there seem to be switching mechanisms at work also, so what triggers
        > the switch to change fate?
        >
        >
        > Terri: understand the numbers, be able to change fate. The final
        > alchemical transformation is the ability to control, or at least not
        > be controlled by, time and space, which become different measurements
        > of the same thing. I think that's what Robert was getting at in his
        > last post?
        >
        >

        Interesting ideas.
        Maybe they knew how to "use" the numbers.
        Or mesh with them, so to speak.
        Vibrate maybe?

        I suspect that numbers have characteristics and behave in certain ways.
        Combinations of numbers can be built that might have definite abilities.

        Wow, thanks for making me use my noodle!
        Honestly I haven't thought about the alchemical transformation,
        but now I am. Maybe I'll catch up to you all someday. :)

        I'll try to offer a response when I get a little more time,
        been a long day today.

        G'night,
        Rob
      • Terri Burns
        ... on ... Maybe I should have called it quits a little earlier-- I see I already posted some comments on this tome back in message 84, and they didn t exactly
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 4, 2004
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          --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Burns"
          <burnst@u...> wrote:

          > Which brings me to a curious set of letters that I'll write a post
          on
          > later. Its quite a tome, actually:
          >
          > Illustrations of British History, Biography, and Manners
          > in the reigns of
          > Henry VIII, Edward VI, Mary, Elizabeth, & James I
          > exhibited in a series of original papers
          > selected from the mss
          > of the noble families of Howard, Talbot, and Cecil;
          > containing, among a variety of interesting pieces,
          > a great part of the correspondence of Elizabeth and her ministers
          > with George, Sixth Earl of Shrewsbury
          > during the 15 years in which
          > Mary Queen of Scots
          > remained in his custody.
          >
          > with numerous observations by Edmund Lodge
          >
          > But I think I'll call it quits for one night.
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Terri

          Maybe I should have called it quits a little earlier-- I see I
          already posted some comments on this tome back in message 84, and
          they didn't exactly stir up a huge interest. Making sense of those
          letters, and how they fit into Scottish, English, and Welsh politics,
          actually means you have to go through 100 years of tracing
          convoluted "Kingmaker" (or should I say, "Queenmaker") plots, going
          back to all the "whatever happened to"s involving everyone from
          Edward Brampton to the princes in the tower. Its is from sifting
          through that convuluted argument that I wind up my theory that Kelley
          was spying, early on, for Mary Queen of Scots, and Dee (and a host of
          others, Sir Philip Sidney among them) trying to find a way out of the
          murderous "bloodline" politics surrounding the Talbots and Dudleys.

          The Richard III society, fwiw, was floating some interesting theories
          concerning the princes in the tower, and whether or not one of them
          actually survived. We do know that one was presented by Brampton--
          the Duarte Brandau of Mario Puzo's "The Family"--to the Borgia Pope,
          Alexander VI, and Alexander believed his story. (That may be of
          interest to Thelemites on this list as Aleister Crowley claimed that
          Alexander VI was one of his significant past lives. Crowley spelled
          his name "Roderic Borgia" rather than "Roderigo Borgia," which many
          take as more British centrism, but which seems to me to hint at a
          Catalonian spelling for the name. Another digression, which I tend
          to do more than stay on any topic.)

          LVX,

          Terri
        • Terri Burns
          ... or ... being ... Meanwhile, here is a photo of Kelly s stepdaughter: http://main.amu.edu.pl/~rafalp/HERM/SENDI/westonia.htm The information the page imho
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 18, 2005
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            --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L...
            wrote:
            > On 30 Nov 2004 at 18:56, Terri Burns wrote:
            >
            > > had none. Joanna Kelley's daughter Elizabeth and son William
            > > apparently joined the Kelleys in Prague after the Dees were gone,
            or
            > > else were brought to them by Edward Dyer, who some suspect of
            being
            > > Elizabeth's father. William Kelley we later find corresponding
            > > enigmatically with the Talbots, the family with whom Mary Queen of
            > > Scots lived under house arrest until her execution.
            >
            > Wow! And though I might be preaching to the
            > choir here, I must point out (for the record) that
            > Kelley first came to Dee under the name "Edward
            > Talbot." (See Dee's "Five Books of the
            > Mysteries.") Incredible!
            >
            > LVX
            > Aaron

            Meanwhile, here is a photo of Kelly's stepdaughter:

            http://main.amu.edu.pl/~rafalp/HERM/SENDI/westonia.htm

            The information the page imho is wrong-- it says she is "The step-
            daughter of Edward Kelley and a Czech-Latin poet--unless Joanna
            Kelley has a secret life as a versifier. However, the person posting
            it-- Rafal Prinke-- is the author of the section in the "Rosicruciah
            Enlightenment Revisited," (a reprise of Frances Yates' famous book
            which is now about 30 years old). He apparently reads Czech and
            Polish, and has a wealth of information various places on the web
            about (among other things) Dee and Kelly's stay in Prague and how it
            may or may not connect to the Voynich manuscript.

            For instance, a couple of weeks ago, I posted a summary of an article
            in Czech by Ivan Svitak, who has also written an entire book (in
            Czech) on Kelley and makes the interesting claim that he is the
            reincarnation of Kelley. Later I found out that Prinke has this to
            say about Svitak:

            http://www.voynich.net/Arch/2000/06/msg00012.html

            > Rafal, I assume that you're Polish and can therefore read
            > Czech. Have you seen the three books by Ivan Svitak about
            > Dee, Kelly and Westonia?

            Unfortunately not. When I became aware of them (ca 1995),
            they were already unavailable and Svitak had been dead.
            The ephemeral publishing house (which I think was his
            own one-man company) had ceased to exist.

            I have, however, talked to people who read them and
            they did not find them anything special. In fact Svitak
            (a former marxist philosopher and propagandist) wrote
            them in English in California (where he emigrated
            after 1968) and they were apparently published in some
            sort of underground publishing house. Curiously,
            the Library of Congress does not know about that
            "editio princeps" while it lists the Prague translations.
            The latter, however, were published without references
            which (seemingly) had been included in the English
            version.

            Anyway, I doubt there can be anything there which comes
            from primary sources (as these were not available to
            him in California) - so I would guess they just rehash
            the factual material from other books in Czech.
            The fact that references were removed for the Czech
            version make me suspicious of their value. Nevertheless,
            I would obviously like to see them and confirm or change
            this opinion.

            As you met Lubos Antonin in Prague, you may also have
            met Michal Pober - he is trying to trace the elusive
            California editions of Svitak's books (but so far with
            no success).

            Best regards,

            Rafal

            Terri:
            I have the opposite problem as Rafal: I have copies of the Czech
            version Svitak wrote, but I can't read Czech. Or Polish. Or Latin.
            Or most of the languages other than English and Italian that these
            folks are writing in.

            Ethnocentrically,

            Terri
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