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Re: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Re: Ethelreda again

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  • John Souttar
    Thanks for all that Terri. My Herbert ancestors were noted for illegitamacy - hence FitzHerbert. Elizabethan England was a bit two faced about this. My
    Message 1 of 49 , Dec 1, 2006
      Thanks for all that Terri. My Herbert ancestors were noted for illegitamacy - hence FitzHerbert.  Elizabethan England was a bit two faced about this.  My father and his cousin Henry Thorold (whose mother was my grandmother Helen Mary Herbert's sister) of Marston Hall were identical for example to the paintings in the Hall of the Sowerby's.  And huge men over six and a half feet. What happens is that these genes surface but not necessarily in the legitimate heirs.  All Mary was worried about was keeping the Pope in business.  One might wonder why.  But as a good Catholic and born to Henry's first wife she would have seen Edward and Elizabeth etc as illegitimate anyway. When it comes to finding a king or queen for England we have taken from many different families and countries, but legitimate heirs preferably.  Danes, Normans, Scots, Dutch and German with tenuous connections sometimes.  It is not a very good system.  Anyway we can track down Sir William.  He owned another house in nearby East Sheen I believe.
      I wonder if you see a connection between the Muses, Angels, Arcadian Gods, Fairyland and 'Others'.  (And are you aware of the great Jesuit paleontologist Teilhard De Chardin's discovery of giants who once roamed the earth, around 33 feet tall?)
      Lord Herbert of Cherbury famously wrote:
      Having interr'd her Infant birth,
      The wate'ry ground, that late did mourn
      Was strew'd with flow'rs, for the return
      Of the wish'd Bridegroom of the Earth 
      If Mary did miscarry (doctors were not helpful) the baby would be interred somewhere important but discreet - like the Chapel of St George at Windsor.
      On another track Beaumont and Fletcher  wrote some great stuff. Bonduca (Boadicea) - 'The hardy Romans! -oh, ye gods of Britain...
      But I like their Song to Pan (it amazes me that while heretics are burned they are able to write this) 2nd verse
      He is great and he is just,
      He is ever good, and must,
      Thus be honoured. Daffadillies,
      Roses, pinks, and loved lilies,
      Let us fling,
      Whilst we sing,
      Ever holy,
      Ever holy,
      Ever honoured, ever young!
      Thus great Pan is ever sung.
      Glastonbury Tor is said the be the entrance to the land of Fey or Fairyland.  Midsummer night is one time when it is possible to enter this world.  That play should have been set in Glastonbury not Athens.#
         ----- Original Message ----- 11
      Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:45 PM
      Subject: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Re: Ethelreda again

      --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvis orDrJohnDee@ yahoogroups. com, "John Souttar"
      <johnsouttar@ ...> wrote:
      Elizabeth was no mean poet and spoke
      > several languages fluently including Greek and Latin. When she
      > crossexamined by her sister's agents on the matter she replied:
      > >
      > > Christ was the Word that spake it
      > > He took the bread and brake it
      > > And what his words did make it
      > > That I believe and take it
      > >
      > > this undoubtedly saved her life.

      > That line of Elizabeth's I think is actually an aphorism of the
      > one I'd argue was used by members of an underground
      > magical/spiritual/ political movement as their "answer"
      or "sidestep"
      > to the transmigration question. When Elizabeth gave it as an
      > her interrogator would likely not follow up on it and press her
      > what she actually meant (did she mean the wine literally changed
      > blood or not?) in the way he might were someone else to give the
      > answer (say, someone like Dee's father, who theoretically could
      > given a similar answer, but not theoretically died or was killed
      > during this same time).
      > Dee was actually imprisoned not long after this. The real
      > imho, was what kept Mary from killing all of them.
      > LOL if we chased that around long enough we'd be back to the
      story of
      > Ethelreda and the Taylor and the trouble with bloodlines.

      Okay, I know there are maybe five people in the world who care about
      this, but I'll indulge myself and respond to my own post.

      Mary has a bit of a problem, imho. She can't get pregnant and its
      not because Philip hasn't likely knocked up a few other people. She
      can't off her more difficult relatives (Elizabeth, the Careys) and
      all of their supporters until she does—or perhaps Philip won't let
      her. Meanwhile, she believes in this "royal bloodline" business too
      much for her own good . . . so if she is going to fake a pregnancy
      (which she might be doing), she has to find a child from the
      bloodline she thinks should rule.

      Flash back to the dates and stories surrounding Henry VIII's daughter
      Ethelreda, the one who marries Harington and gets him all the land.

      About the time Dee and Christopher Carey are rounded up, and before
      Elizabeth is taken under house arrest to see Mary and Philip at
      Hampton court, we have a final appearance of her half-sister
      Ethelreda, or a person I'm taking to be Ethelreda. In Foxe's book,
      she's now "Isabel Malt" of Horn Alley, Aldersgate, London

      In several different editions of Foxe's book of martyre's, Foxe
      reports that

      Isabel Malt claimed that Lord North and another nobleman had
      approached her in 1555 and offered her money if they could take her
      infant son and pass it off as queen Mary's son. 1570, p. 1772; 1576,
      p. 1513; 1583, p. 1597

      From Foxe's Book of Martyrs, 1570 version:
      http://hri.shef. ac.uk/foxe/ single/book11/ 11_1570_1772. html

      "And now for somuch as in the beginning of this moneth of Iune
      about Whitsontyde, the tyme was thought to be nygh that this yong
      Maister should come into the world, and that midwyues, rockers,
      nurses, with the cradle and al were prepared and in a readines,
      sodenly vpon what cause or occasion it is vncertaine, a certayne
      vayne rumour was blowne in London of the prosperous deliueraunce of
      the Queene, and the byrth of the child: In so much that the bels were
      rong, bonefyars and processions made, not onely in the citie of
      London and in most other partes of the realme, but also in the towne
      of Antwarpe gunnes were shot of vpon the Riuer by the English Ships,
      and the Mariners thereof rewarded with an hundred pistolets or
      Italian crownes by the Lady Regent, who was the Queene of Hungarye.
      Such great reioysing & triumph was for the Queenes deliuery, and that
      there was a Prince borne. Yea, diuers Preachers, namely one, the
      Parson of S. Anne within Aldersgate, after processi&#333; and Te Deum
      song, tooke vpon him to describe the proportion of the child, how
      fayre, how beautifull, and great a Prince it was, as the lyke had not
      bene seene."

      "In the middest of this great ado, there was a simple man (this I
      speake but vpon information) dwelling within foure myles of Barwicke,
      that neuer had bene before halfe way to London, which said concerning
      the Bonfiers made for Queene Maries childe: Here is a ioyly triumph,
      but at length all will not proue worth a messe of Potage: as in
      deede it came to passe: For in the end all proued cleane contrary,
      and the ioye and expectations of men were much deceiued. For the
      people were certified, that the Queene neither was as then deliuered,
      nor after was in hope to haue any child. At this time many talked
      diuersly: some sayd thys rumour of the Queenes conception was spread
      for a policie: some other affirmed that she was deceyued by a
      Tympany or some other lyke disease, to thinke her self with child,
      and was not: some thought she was wyth childe, and that it dyd by
      some chaunce miscarye, or els that she was bewitched: but what was
      the truth thereof, the Lord knoweth, to whom nothing is secret. One
      thing of mine own hearing and seing I can not passe ouer vnwytnessed.
      There came to me, whom I did both heare and see, one Isabel Malt, a
      wom&#257; dwelling in Aldersgate strete in Horne alley, not farre fr&#333; the
      house where this present booke was printed, who before wytnes made
      thys declaration vnto vs, that she being deliuered of a man child vp&#333;
      Whitsonday in the morning, which was the xj. day of Iune, an. 1555.
      there came to her the Lorde North, and an other Lord to her vnknowen,
      dwelling then about old Fish streete, demaunding of her if shee would
      part with her child, and would sweare that shee neuer knew nor had no
      such child. Which if she would, her sonne, they sayd, should bee well
      prouided for, shee should take no care for it, with many fayre offers
      if she would part with the child.
      After that came other women also, of whom one she sayd should haue
      bene the Rocker, but shee in no wyse would let go her s&#333;ne, who is
      yet alyue & is called Timothe Malt,, of the age of. xiij. yeares and

      Thus much, I say, I heard of the woman her selfe. What credite is to
      be geuen to her relati&#333; , I deale not withall, but leaue it to the
      liberty of þe reader, to beleue it they that list: to them that list
      not, I haue no further warrant to assure them."

    • Terri Burns
      ... though ... it ... Thanks for the plug. A couple more people have joined over there recently, so who knows, maybe it will start up again! Anpu2012 keeps
      Message 49 of 49 , Dec 11, 2006
        --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron"
        <Aaron@...> wrote:

        > > There is some discussion of that topic in the archives here,
        > > anyone interested can find much more in the archives of our
        > > gone-silent sister group, Magickal ORigins of the U.S.:
        > >
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MagickalOriginsUS/
        > Argh! You're right! It's been silent for so long I forgot about
        > entirely... :/ I thought the whole discussion happened here. lol
        > > There seventy plus posts on the topic over there, plus a couple
        > > articles in the archives, though the group itself has been silent
        > for
        > > more than a year.
        > Its archives are priceless, though.
        > LVX
        > Aaron

        Thanks for the plug. A couple more people have joined over there
        recently, so who knows, maybe it will start up again! "Anpu2012"
        keeps telling me they're going to start posting information about
        magickal Washington, but it keeps not happening. I figured I'd just
        stay silent until/unless someone else wants to pick up the
        conversation. Things have been cooking here, anyway!


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