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Re: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Digest Number 44

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  • Elizabeth Forrest
    Thanks so much for this information. I m extremely interested in reading more excerpts Terri. Sorry I don t have much access to the web, but I ll try to post
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 2, 2004
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      Thanks so much for this information. I'm extremely interested in reading more excerpts Terri. Sorry I don't have much access to the web, but I'll try to post comments when I can, love, Liz

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com
      Date: 1 Aug 2004 11:28:57 -0000
      To: AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee] Digest Number 44

      > There are 3 messages in this issue.
      > Topics in this digest:
      > 1. Re: Grave Creek Mound, Madoc, pre-Columbian US
      > From: "Terri Burns" <burnst@...>
      > 2. Re: more on Raleigh and the Lost Colony
      > From: "Terri Burns" <burnst@...>
      > 3. Re: more on Raleigh and the Lost Colony/who is John White?
      > From: "Terri Burns" <burnst@...>
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:46:11 -0000
      > From: "Terri Burns" <burnst@...>
      > Subject: Re: Grave Creek Mound, Madoc, pre-Columbian US
      > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "johnwkca"
      > <aurealis@r...> wrote:
      > > Hi Terri,
      > >
      > > > Apparently there's also at least one other writer exploring this
      > > > connection . . . some of you may want to check out at on-line
      > book
      > > > titled "Arthur, America and the Comet," partially on-line at:
      > > >
      > > > http://www.realhistoryonline.com/
      > >
      > > Interesting site. I contacted two of the owners: Baram Blackett and
      > > Alan Wilson, a few years ago, after reading The Holy Kingdom and
      > > managed to communicate with Baram. The book impressed me so much
      > that
      > > when we toured Britain, Wales and Ireland, I made a special effort
      > to
      > > loacte many of the sites mentioned in the book. Some of the sites
      > > were not easy to find, but I did manage to locate the "cross on the
      > > wall", the "anvil stone", the location of the Church of St. Peter's
      > > (at Mynydd y Gaer), Saint Iltyd's church at Llantwit Major (The
      > > Samson Stone), the location of Helen's (Constantine's mother)
      > Castle
      > > (walked by it several times before finding it), the source of the
      > > quarry for Stonehenge, etc. (This was just before we crossed to
      > > Ireland and visted Liz in her castle). Unfortunately Baram was
      > > incredibly rude, extremely defensive, and misunderstood everything
      > I
      > > tried to say to him. He seemed convinced that the entire world was
      > > against him :-)
      > >
      > > It wil take some time to read the excerpts, but they do look very
      > > interesting. Thanks for poinitng it out.
      > >
      > > John
      > Well, its not really surprising how quickly paranoia sets in among
      > many who see a history very different from that generally
      > taught . . . just very sad.
      > Spent much of today trying to scan in parts of a very old book I came
      > across by P.P. Cherry, _Grave Creek Mound: Its History; and its
      > Inscribed Stone, with its Vindication_ (Wadsworth, Ohio: Steam
      > Printing House, 1877.) Unfortunately parts of the bottoms of the
      > pages have literally fallen off, and the print is so crammed together
      > it will not scan at least with what I have here. I'm trying to
      > decide if its worth the effort to retype the whole thing then I get
      > back-- probably will, but it looks like many hours of work. The
      > writer goes through all the writing on the mound at that time, and
      > also interviews those still alive who remember the opening of the
      > mound and the discovery of the inscribed stone. Pages and pages of
      > different accounts turn up the story we know already-- that there was
      > an inscribed stone with Celtic figures and no one knows why, and that
      > those who questioned its authenticity did so in the face of numerous
      > eyewitness accounts of finding the stone, as well as overwhelming
      > scholarly interpretation of the writing as Celtic or Ibero-Celtic.
      > None of the many accounts he covers get to the point which interests
      > me, though, which is how many in the area associated the mound with
      > Madoc BEFORE the discovery of the stone (if in fact they did, but it
      > seems to me this is more than possible.)
      > By the way, I am still digesting the articles you posted. I may need
      > to read them several times before I can have much to say about them
      > other than "yes, these do seem very important/
      > Until then, thanks again.
      > Terri
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:57:19 -0000
      > From: "Terri Burns" <burnst@...>
      > Subject: Re: more on Raleigh and the Lost Colony
      > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Burns"
      > <burnst@u...> wrote:
      > > Another member of this group, Sehoya, recommended a book to me
      > awhile
      > > back, Lee Miller's "Roanoke: Solving the Riddle of England's Lost
      > > Colony." Has anyone here read it? I can post sections if anyone's
      > > interested. The writer does an amazing job of synthesizing
      > > information from "Old" and "New" worlds, sifting through the
      > > political intrigues of Dee's England and information from different
      > > indigenous groups in the (now) US, to speculate about what might
      > have
      > > happened to Ralegh's colony. If one adds to her research some of
      > the
      > > ideas tossed around here about pre-Columbus Celtic settlement in
      > the
      > > Americas, a very interesting picture of that time period starts to
      > > emerge.
      > LOL or I might post sections anyway, since this book will scan and
      > the article I am working on will not, and since the "political
      > turmoil" that brought down Ralegh's many endeavors was the same which
      > throttled many of Dee's. Here's the Table and Contents to Miller's
      > book, followed by her preface:
      > 1 The Disappearance
      > 2 A Case of Missing Persons
      > 3 John White: Governor
      > 4 Of London
      > 5 Of Population
      > 6 Of Religion
      > 7 The Colonists
      > 8 In Certain Danger
      > 9 Sabotage
      > 10 The Second Roanoke Expedition: Grenville and the Secotan (1585)
      > 11 The Second Roanoke Expedition: Lane's Command (1585-1586)
      > 12 Chaunis Temoatan and a Murder (1586)
      > 13 The Lost Colonists (1587)
      > 14 Raleigh's Rise to Power
      > 15 Political Turmoil
      > 16 The Players
      > 17 The Motive
      > 18 The Game
      > 19 The Fall
      > 20 Raleigh's Search
      > 21 Jamestown
      > 22 War on the Powhatan
      > 23 Requiem
      > 24 Deep in the Interior
      > 25 Who Are the Mandoag?
      > 26 Epilogue
      > Appendix A: Wingina and the Secotan
      > Appendix B: The Meaning of Mandoag and Nottoway
      > Notes and References
      > Bibliography
      > Index
      > Preface
      > When I first began work on this book, I intended to write a
      > straightforward history, whose ending included a mysterious
      > disappearance that I hoped to solve. However, I was wholly unprepared
      > for what very rapidly emerged as three mysteries in one. It was
      > apparent that I 'was dealing with a hugely complex sequence of events
      > that did not all begin the moment 116 men, women, and children landed
      > on Roanoke Island, subsequently to disappear without a trace. Their
      > story was vastly more than that.
      > Sir Walter Raleigh said that although a prince's business is seldom
      > hidden from some of those many eyes which pry both into them, and
      > into such as live about them, they yet sometimes. . . conceal the
      > truth from all reports. What is true of princes is also true of
      > others, and such concealment was certainly the case with the Lost
      > Colony tragedy. Evidence indicates that the truth about the
      > colonists' fate was known, although misleading official statements
      > were passed off in its place.
      > One great flaw in the writing of history is that we often tend to
      > accept easy explanations of events. The job of an historian, said
      > Raleigh, being full of so many things to weary it, may well be
      > excused, when finding apparent cause enough of things done, it
      > forbeareth to make further search. . . . So comes it many times to
      > pass, that great fires, which consume whole houses or towns, begin
      > with a few straws that are wasted or not seen.
      > This was true here. There was something wrong with the Lost Colony
      > story as it had been told. It went like this: Sir Walter Raleigh
      > obtained a royal patent from Queen Elizabeth I for rights to settle
      > North America. In the spring of 1584; he launched an exploratory
      > expedition under Captains Philip Amadas and Arthur Barlowe which
      > located Roanoke Island before returning home that autumn. The
      > following year, he raised a military expedition headed by Sir Richard
      > Grenville which reached Roanoke Island in the summer, built a fort
      > there, and remained in it until the spring of 1586. Finally, in 1587,
      > Raleigh sent a colony of men, women, and children to the Chesapeake
      > Bay with their governor, John White, with instructions to call at
      > Roanoke on the way. For some reason--White's ineptitude as a leader,
      > his preference for Roanoke Island, or unruly mariners -- they went no
      > farther than Roanoke and settled there in the abandoned military
      > fort. Already short of supplies, White reluctantly returned to
      > England with the transport ships.
      > Unfortunately, his arrival in London coincided with the coming of the
      > Spanish Armada. With England at war, he was unable to relieve the
      > colony until 1590. When he finally did return to Roanoke, the
      > colonists had vanished. Years later, Jamestown officials reported
      > that the "Lost Colonists" had been murdered by the Powhatan Indians
      > of Virginia.
      > This story is solidly backed by four hundred years of retelling. It
      > is a myth created to explain glaring inconsistencies, to smooth out
      > the rough edges of unanswered questions. Without the myth, none of
      > the circumstances make sense. Why did John White take his colonists
      > to Roanoke, and not to the Chesapeake Bay as planned? Why did he
      > return to England? If not to fetch supplies, then why did he leave
      > his colony? If not the war, then why didn't he come back? And if the
      > Powhatan didn't kill them, then where were the Lost Colonists? The
      > moment the accepted story is pulled away, the questions leap out,
      > demanding answers. The moment the questions are asked, the accepted
      > story no longer fits.
      > There is something unsettling about a mystery. When it involves
      > tragedy, it is doubly so. When that tragedy is the loss of 116 people
      > and their inexplicable disappearance, the need to find answers is
      > compelling. When history said there was nothing left to tell, we had
      > only scratched the surface of the puzzle. It is still possible, at
      > this late date, to wring out the facts, to squeeze out more
      > information, to uncover that which it was never intended we should
      > uncover. To learn the truth. To solve a mystery.
      > Some will find it jarring. Raleigh himself did not write his own side
      > of the story, though perhaps he gave us his reasons when he wrote, I
      > know that it will be said by many, that I might have been more
      > pleasing to the reader if I had written the story of mine own
      > times. . . . To this I answer that whosoever. . . shall follow truth
      > too near the heels, it may happily strike out his teeth.
      > . . .
      > Contrary to the impression generally given, clues to the Lost
      > Colonists' whereabouts abound, although they have never been given
      > equal value in any previous treatment of the subject. As a
      > consequence, the mystery has not been solved. The single most
      > important question surrounding the Lost Colonists is: Why were they
      > left on Roanoke Island? From this question all else follows: Who was
      > responsible for this, and why? What were the initial reports
      > filtering into London? If the colony was in trouble, why did its
      > governor, John White, abandon it and return to England? Do we know
      > something about his background, or about the colonists themselves,
      > that could explain what was happening? What does John White's own
      > account reveal of the problem? What were the conditions on Roanoke
      > that would explain the colonjsts' disappearance? What of the
      > conflicting reports from Jamestown of Lost Colony sightings?
      > Question after question drives us back in time from effect to cause
      > until we finally reach the first plateau: Why were the colonists
      > lost? Only when we understand this, and the danger posed by Roanoke
      > Island and its environs, can we move forward to trace what happened
      > after their dis¬appearance. I chose to tell this story, then, as a
      > series of discoveries generated by key questions. The result is not a
      > traditional history format. If it conveys, as I hope, anything of the
      > tension and drama of the story itself, then I have succeeded.
      > A note about methodology is in order. The quotes used in this book
      > date from the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. They are
      > interspersed within the text in a way that was intended to be as
      > seamless as possible, but are distinguished from it by being rendered
      > in italics. For ease in reading and to maintain a consistent style,
      > spellings and punctuation have been modernized with the exception of
      > personal names - which have been modernized or not according to
      > context - and Indian names, which I left as they appeared in the
      > original.
      > The story of the Lost Colony is America's oldest mystery. To tell it
      > properly, I felt that it had to be told as a mystery, not simply as a
      > chronological history. This allows the reader to approach the
      > material as a series . . .
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:15:47 -0000
      > From: "Terri Burns" <burnst@...>
      > Subject: Re: more on Raleigh and the Lost Colony/who is John White?
      > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Burns"
      > <burnst@u...> wrote:
      > > 1 The Disappearance
      > > 2 A Case of Missing Persons
      > > 3 John White: Governor
      > An interesting excerpt from chapter three, on "John White."
      > John White: The Enigma
      > The records are missing. Or incomplete. Or deliberately concealed.
      > Thus very little is known of John White: not his place of birth; not
      > his age; not his family connections, nor how he came to be associated
      > with Raleigh, nor why he was a member of the Roanoke expeditions. . .
      > nor, indeed, why he appears to have vanished completely after the
      > bombshell announcement of his colony's disappearance.
      > The mystery surrounding him only deepens when we search for the
      > answers. There is no John White mentioned for the Roanoke voyage of
      > 1584, though we know, by his own reckoning, he was there.2 Nor is his
      > name among the list of soldiers and specialists resident on the
      > island the following year. Except for a single notice in an anonymous
      > 1585 ship's log, we would have no record of his being on the
      > expedition at all. There is almost no trace of him in any document.
      > In a wild flight of fancy, we might almost suspect the all too common
      > name of John White to be a pseudonym. A disguise, like that of Edward
      > Kelley (aka John Talbot), scryer to the famed mathematician, Dr. John
      > Dee. Or the satirists John Penry and Job Throckmorton, who both went
      > under the name of Martin Marprelate to keep themselves from being
      > killed. Or Bernard Mawde (alias Montalto), an agent to Secretary of
      > State Sir Francis Wal¬singham. Assumed names were not uncommon. .
      > [Terri's note: they were very common-- in fact Shakespeare himself,
      > if of course he was Shakespeare, likely used several assumed name, as
      > I think I mentioned earlier. Several documents suggest he used the
      > name "William Hall," and a "William Hall" knew the Dees and Kelleys
      > in Prague, among other palces.]
      > .
      > Explain the omission as one will, the fact remains that here is the
      > record and there is very little of John White within it. Odd, at the
      > very least. His intimate connection with Raleigh might have
      > guaranteed him, as it did others of this circle, some degree of
      > notoriety. Historical reference might have derived from his office as
      > Governor; and of an ill-fated colony at that. One might reasonably
      > expect him to have been mentioned by some biographer of the day. Yet
      > all we have is his single farewell letter to Hakluyt; and that is all.
      > The Artist
      > What, then, is left? Pieces of a puzzle, a tantalizingly vague
      > outline. We do know that John White was an artist - though even this
      > occupation is revealed to us only imperfectly. Seventy-five paintings
      > are attributed to him. How many more - if any -lie among the many
      > anonymous works from the period i_ impossible to say.4 There is a
      > John White entered into the musty guild registry of the Painter-
      > Stainer's Company in London in 1580.5 Certainly a match. But that
      > tells us very little. What type of artist was he? Under whom did he
      > study? To what Renaissance school does he belong? Hints to be teased
      > from history. The first evidence presented to us is a portrait White
      > drew of Calichoughe in the year 1577. In Bristol.
      > Martin Frobisher had just returned to England from his second Arctic
      > expedition.6 A mining venture to exploit a black ore found the
      > previous summer by his unlikely passenger, Dr. John Dee. Using, it
      > might be added, the dubious technique of a divining rod.7 Assayers in
      > London, and Dee himself, thought they had struck the mother lode. .
      > But the 1577 voyage spelled disaster. On Baffin Island there was a
      > misunderstanding, Frobisher's error; resulting in the bloody massacre
      > of an entire band of Nugumiut on a cliff overlooking the sea.
      > Frobisher, his ship's hold crammed full of ore, seized three Nugumiut
      > and returned to England: a woman and child - Egnock and Nutioc - and
      > an unrelated man named Calichoughe, who was injured in the capture.8
      > On Bristol's wharves, Frobisher's men unload the ore. Two hundred
      > tons of black rock. Sparking an immediate gold mania. Metallurgists
      > and assayers rush to the coast to test its worth. Investors tumble
      > over them¬selves, calculating their returns. In the riot of
      > excitement a comet streaks across the night sky, showering fireworks
      > over the celebration.
      > In the harbor, beneath the angular trading houses, Calichoughe
      > quietly plies his kayak. White seabirds circle overhead; over this
      > lonely Nugumiut man, bleeding from internal injuries unsuspected by
      > the crowds gathered onshore to watch.9 Calichoughe, paddling a kayak,
      > cre¬ates a sensation. Celebrated Flemish artist Cornelis Ketel
      > hastens to Bristol to paint all three Baffin Islanders. Two of the
      > portraits are intended for Queen Elizabeth. To be displayed in her
      > palace at Hampton Court, where they will be much admired by
      > visitors.1O There are plans afoot to transport the Nugumiut to London
      > for a royal audience.
      > But there is another painter here in Bristol. He, too, composes
      > portraits of the Nugumiut. In watercolors. In a style reminiscent of
      > Durer or the Flemish artist Breughel, or Lucas de Heere who painted
      > another Inuit taken by Frobisher the previous year-- John White
      > captures them with his brush. Sealskin parkas trimmed with fur;
      > Calichoughe holding a bow; the kayak paddle. Egnock, with her little
      > girl, Nutioc, tucked inside her .coat, peering out from the hood.
      > There is a certain sensitivity and realism in these paintings not
      > found in others' works.
      > And then it all goes wrong. The celebration smoke settles chokingly
      > around Bristol as Calichoughe's pain echoes out over the tidal wash.
      > Frobisher's expedition is crumbling. The biggest maritime fiasco to
      > date. Yet even with everything unraveling - after the ore is
      > determined fool's gold and its financier cast into debtor's prison;
      > after Calichoughe dies within weeks from his injuries; after the
      > attending Bristol physician, Dr. Edward Dodding, is bitterly gr-
      > ieved, not over his death, but over the Queen's lost chance to view
      > him; after Egnock and Nutioc succumb to fever days later - after all
      > this tragedy and disaster, John White's paintings alone come shining
      > through.12 With a profound sense of humanity and compassion. They are
      > the only redeeming feature of this whole episode. Who is this man, to
      > paint like this?
      > A London Career
      > Watercolor was his speciality. His talent in this field was
      > considerable. His known works, now in the British Museum, provide the
      > only tangible evidence of John White. Yet what was his career? To
      > what bent were,his talents turned? Perhaps as a limner: a painter of
      > portraits and miniatures like the famous Nicholas Hilliard?13 These
      > gentlemen artists were in much demand, painting locket and token
      > portraits of royalty and nobles. In an age before photography,
      > princes and statesmen collect keepsake mementos of their foreign
      > counterparts. To put a face to a name; to know their associates.
      > .
      > There are techniques in White's work that suggest this: delicate
      > brush strokes; opaque washes like those used in medieval illuminated
      > manu¬scripts; gold and silver highlights. Yet White is also an
      > innovator, a free¬thinker, a nonconformist. Anticipating watercolor
      > methods not thought to have been developed until the eighteenth
      > century - the use of light, rather than bold, outlines in lead;
      > unconstrained strokes that imbue the drawings with a vivid sense of
      > life; an awareness of the underlying texture and color of his medium,
      > applying clear washes directly to the paper. 14
      > Alternatively, White may have been a specialist in murals and
      > decorative art, like Lucas de Heere, skills increasingly in demand to
      > beautify the homes of wealthy patrons with startling depictions of
      > ancient mythology, kingdoms, and exotic, cosmopolitan places.
      > Currently all the rage. At Theobalds, Lord Burghley's estate, the
      > twelve signs of the zodiac march across the ceiling of the grand hall
      > so that at night you can see distinctly the stars proper to each; on
      > the same stage the sun performs its course, which is without doubt
      > contrived by some concealed ingenious mechanism.15 White's vivid
      > portraits of travelers from Turkey, Uzbekistan, and Greece might
      > imply familiarity with the merchants of Constantinople;
      > or perhaps such colorful characters frequented the trading houses of
      > London or Bristol. If, indeed, White drew them from life.16
      > But if one were to follow a hunch, one might suggest a different
      > course, placing White squarely within a field then only in its
      > infancy... That of scientific illustrator. England was just beginning
      > to make forays into the distant world: to India, Asia, Africa, the
      > Americas. Recent expeditions had resulted in myriad discoveries,
      > having an impact on an exhaustive number of fields: astronomy,
      > mathematics, navigation, geog¬raphy, cartography, botany, zoology,
      > entomology, ethnography, publishing, and engraving.
      > The rise of English naturalists and explorers prompted an explosive
      > demand for scientific illustration. Books on foreign travel were
      > popularized by their scenes of faraway lands. The new scientists,
      > such as Dr. John Dee, Richard Hakluyt, and Thomas Hariot - all
      > intimate acquaintances of Raleigh, the last, indeed, in his employ -
      > were in the vanguard of these discoveries. For a young artist it was
      > a thrilling, stimulating environment indeed. The question is, was
      > White there?
      > (continues)
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Terri Burns
      ... reading more excerpts Terri. Sorry I don t have much access to the web, but I ll try to post comments when I can, love, Liz ... My pleasure. You wouldn t
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 2, 2004
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        --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth
        Forrest" <greenlysard@l...> wrote:
        > Thanks so much for this information. I'm extremely interested in
        reading more excerpts Terri. Sorry I don't have much access to the
        web, but I'll try to post comments when I can, love, Liz

        My pleasure. You wouldn't have any insights about John White, would
        you? As I understand it he made it to Ireland at one point-- wonder
        if he came to Castle Matrix? He's also likely to have studied with
        Jacques LeMoyne, who came to London after the St. Bartholomew's Day
        massacre, so some interesting connections show up that way as well.


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