Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare - Commentaries

Expand Messages
  • ClaireNoaell@aol.com
    Terri or whoever may be looking in to the group these days. Hoping for some comments from you ... I ve watched the The HBO Production of Elizabeth I /Helen
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 6, 2006
       Terri or whoever may be looking in to the group these days. Hoping for some comments from you ...
       
       
      I've watched the
      The HBO Production of Elizabeth I /Helen Mirren's portrayal was excellent/ recently and looking at the time line see that the Earl of Essex was executed in 1601 and also Francis Bacon has quite a lead part in that particular production about the Queen of the times.
       
      After reading some quotes from Shakespeare's play Twelfth Night /and others/, I found these commentaries... This plays Twelfth Night" 1599-1600
      "
      Merry Wives of Windsor
      " 1601-02
        Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?

      Expectation is the root of all heartache. 

       Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds. 
       

      Commentary

      Much of the spontaneity of this scene is lost to the reader of the comedy; however, on the stage, this is a hilarious comic masterpiece. It is a jovial company; first, Sir Toby and Sir Andrew are carousing in drunken, noisy celebration and are soon joined by Feste, who will also provide some songs. Then Maria, complaining at first, finally joins the celebration. The mood is one of partying and indulgence as Maria keeps a constant lookout, for she knows that Malvolio would delight to report just such shenanigans to the Lady Olivia. The rapid, witty exchanges are difficult for the modern audience, but what emerges of major importance is that Sir Toby is not just an average drunk; he is indeed a true wit, whose lines addressed to Sir Andrew establish the fact that the latter is a gull and an ignoramus.

      The entrance of Malvolio is particularly comic. Remember that Malvolio is tall, skinny, and bald. Traditionally, he appears dressed in his nightgown and night cap, and he stands above the party makers as a magnificently ridiculous figure carrying a lit candle in a candlestick. It is difficult to take his authority seriously since he looks so ridiculous. Sir Toby and Feste dance around this foolish figure, and finally, when Malvolio reminds Sir Toby that he can be thrown out of the household, Malvolio has taken a step too far. It should be remembered that in the Elizabethan stratified society, Malvolio, while he is a steward, is inferior to Sir Toby in social rank, and whatever limitations Sir Toby may have, he is a knight and he is Lady Olivia's uncle. Thus after Malvolio's threat, Sir Toby asks him, "Art any more than a steward?" Then the essential conflict between the two is stated by Sir Toby: "Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?" This final statement characterizes perfectly the two types of people in the world: There are the Malvolios who would have everyone be as austere and priggish as he is, and then there are the Sir Tobys who will always find pleasure in life. The term "cakes and ale" has become famous as a phrase describing pleasure-loving people. After Sir Toby puts Malvolio in his place, Malvolio turns to Maria to reprimand her, and then he exits.

      The remainder of the scene deals with the plot which they will all concoct in order to get even with Malvolio, using the knowledge that Malvolio is such an egotist that he would readily believe that a love letter, ostensibly sent from Olivia, was addressed to him. Thus, as the scene ends, we are prepared not only for the complicated love triangle, but also for the duping of the haughty Malvolio. We also see that Sir Toby is aware of an affection that Maria has for him, and at the end of the comedy, we will learn that these two are married.

      http://education.yahoo.com/homework_help/cliffsnotes/twelfth_night/18.html

       

       
    • Liz Forrest
      Hi Betsy, glad to see a post for this group again. Sorry I ve been so pressured with little time and funds for accessing the web, that I may have missed a
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 7, 2006
        Hi Betsy, glad to see a post for this group again.  Sorry I've been so pressured with little time and funds for accessing the web, that I may have missed a lot.  These days I'm most intrigued by the names used in Shakespeare's plays.  MAL  VOL  IO.    Volume 10?  Folio? 
         
        Hope all's well for you and the family.   I'm still functioning though I've been without a car for more than a year now, and without electricity for nearly a year and a half.  Castle seems to prefer it that way!  And I must admit I enjoy the candlelight and firelight from our one working fireplace. 
         
        I remember that Terri or someone else mentioned that Elizabeth I disappeared into the countryside for a few months at a time to apparently recuperate from illness, and these times appeared to match that of the birth of certain individuals, including Raleigh.  Do you know anymore about the source for this?  Love, Liz

         
      • Terri Burns
        ... for some ... Hi Betsy, I m still looking in, but haven t had much to say. What would you comment on in what you posted? Not sure where you want to go . .
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 9, 2006
          --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com,
          ClaireNoaell@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > Terri or whoever may be looking in to the group these days. Hoping
          for some
          > comments from you ...
          >

          Hi Betsy,

          I'm still looking in, but haven't had much to say. What would you
          comment on in what you posted? Not sure where you want to go . . .

          what I find curious, or at least very synchronistic, is 1601/Essex
          coming up again. Yesterday Alaerian and another friend of ours wound
          up at a free lute concert . . . turned out to be a multimedia
          presentation/concert on John Dowland and the "Cult of Elizabeth,"
          particularly chronicaling the rise and fall of Essex via the music of
          Dowland. So that's what I think of when I look at your post, rather
          than anything too scholarly. Re: Twelfth Night: many look at the Duke
          Orsino's taste for the "dying fall" as a reference to Dowland's "Flow
          My Tears," often connected to Essex.

          Also, I'm sure you know the festival of Twelfth Night is the Roman
          Saturnalia, the Feast of Fools. The Baconians have an essay about
          Twelfth Night and Orpheus over at:
          www.sirbacon.org/twelfthnight.htm
          I might connect the dots to different people or at least a different
          causal order, but the connections drawn there are at least
          interesting.

          LVX,

          Terri





          >
          >
          > I've watched the
          > The HBO Production of Elizabeth I /Helen Mirren's portrayal was
          excellent/
          > recently and looking at the time line see that the Earl of Essex
          was executed
          > in 1601 and also Francis Bacon has quite a lead part in that
          particular
          > production about the Queen of the times.
          >
          > After reading some quotes from Shakespeare's play Twelfth
          Night /and
          > others/, I found these commentaries... This plays _Twelfth Night_
          > (http://the-
          tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/Comedy/twelfthnight/twelfthnight.html) "
          1599-1600
          > "_Merry Wives of Windsor_
          > (http://the-
          tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/Comedy/themerrywivesofwindsor/themerrywivesof
          windsor.html) " 1601-02
          >
          > Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more
          cakes and
          > ale?
          >
          > Expectation is the root of all heartache.
          >
          > Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds.
          >
          >
          > _Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare - Summaries and
          Commentaries_
          >
          (http://education.yahoo.com/homework_help/cliffsnotes/twelfth_night/18
          .html)
          >
          >
          > Commentary
          > Much of the spontaneity of this scene is lost to the reader of the
          comedy;
          > however, on the stage, this is a hilarious comic masterpiece. It
          is a jovial
          > company; first, Sir Toby and Sir Andrew are carousing in drunken,
          noisy
          > celebration and are soon joined by Feste, who will also provide
          some songs. Then
          > Maria, complaining at first, finally joins the celebration. The
          mood is one of
          > partying and indulgence as Maria keeps a constant lookout, for she
          knows that
          > Malvolio would delight to report just such shenanigans to the Lady
          Olivia.
          > The rapid, witty exchanges are difficult for the modern audience,
          but what
          > emerges of major importance is that Sir Toby is not just an
          average drunk; he is
          > indeed a true wit, whose lines addressed to Sir Andrew establish
          the fact
          > that the latter is a gull and an ignoramus.
          > The entrance of Malvolio is particularly comic. Remember that
          Malvolio is
          > tall, skinny, and bald. Traditionally, he appears dressed in his
          nightgown and
          > night cap, and he stands above the party makers as a magnificently
          ridiculous
          > figure carrying a lit candle in a candlestick. It is difficult to
          take his
          > authority seriously since he looks so ridiculous. Sir Toby and
          Feste dance
          > around this foolish figure, and finally, when Malvolio reminds Sir
          Toby that he
          > can be thrown out of the household, Malvolio has taken a step too
          far. It
          > should be remembered that in the Elizabethan stratified society,
          Malvolio, while
          > he is a steward, is inferior to Sir Toby in social rank, and
          whatever
          > limitations Sir Toby may have, he is a knight and he is Lady
          Olivia's uncle. Thus
          > after Malvolio's threat, Sir Toby asks him, "Art any more than a
          steward?"
          > Then the essential conflict between the two is stated by Sir
          Toby: "Dost thou
          > think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and
          ale?" This
          > final statement characterizes perfectly the two types of people in
          the world:
          > There are the Malvolios who would have everyone be as austere and
          priggish as
          > he is, and then there are the Sir Tobys who will always find
          pleasure in
          > life. The term "cakes and ale" has become famous as a phrase
          describing
          > pleasure-loving people. After Sir Toby puts Malvolio in his place,
          Malvolio turns to
          > Maria to reprimand her, and then he exits.
          > The remainder of the scene deals with the plot which they will all
          concoct
          > in order to get even with Malvolio, using the knowledge that
          Malvolio is such
          > an egotist that he would readily believe that a love letter,
          ostensibly sent
          > from Olivia, was addressed to him. Thus, as the scene ends, we are
          prepared
          > not only for the complicated love triangle, but also for the
          duping of the
          > haughty Malvolio. We also see that Sir Toby is aware of an
          affection that Maria
          > has for him, and at the end of the comedy, we will learn that
          these two are
          > married.
          >
          _http://education.yahoo.com/homework_help/cliffsnotes/twelfth_night/18
          .html_
          >
          (http://education.yahoo.com/homework_help/cliffsnotes/twelfth_night/18
          .html)
          >
        • Terri Burns
          ... disappeared ... recuperate ... of certain ... source for ... Hi Liz, sorry I missed this question before. That discussionw as back in the spring of 2005
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 16, 2006
            --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Forrest"
            <greenlysard@...> wrote:

            > I remember that Terri or someone else mentioned that Elizabeth I
            disappeared
            > into the countryside for a few months at a time to apparently
            recuperate
            > from illness, and these times appeared to match that of the birth
            of certain
            > individuals, including Raleigh. Do you know anymore about the
            source for
            > this? Love, Liz
            >

            Hi Liz, sorry I missed this question before.

            That discussionw as back in the spring of 2005 when I was posting a
            lot of my notes to the list, abnd this list is the only written
            source I know of for the speculation. That discussion was
            intertwined with my comments on an article called "The Earl and the
            Alchemist," and speculation about who likely killed Ferdinando
            Stanley and why, but that article does not bring in Ralegh; I did,
            and attributed it to an earlier conversation I'd had with Vincent.

            See message 544 in particular. I'll paste it in below, but anyone
            else interested who wasn't on the list at that time might want to
            start with message #506, the start of the "The Earl and the
            Alchemist"/part two thread, to make sense of why the discussion went
            in this particular direction.

            reposted message 544:

            --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Liz Forrest
            <greenlysard@g...> wrote:

            > "Of course, to state the obvious, Lord Burgley and his son Robert
            > Cecil are not Queen, nor is James, yet. Elizabeth is. Her failure
            > to do anything about either of the Cecils while being the most overt
            > crowned supporter of the occult in recent history boggles the mind.
            > The conventional answer is that if she'd "solved" this problem by
            > naming an English successor, like the Earl of Derby or the Wizard
            > Earl of Northumberland, civil war would ensue; if she named James,
            > she was naming a Cecil puppet to the throne. That explanation
            > doesn't quite wash. One way to unknot this is by looking into the
            > tangled mess surrounding Sir Walter Ralegh, the Earl of Essex, and
            > intrigues in Ireland, but another time. Or maybe I'll leave that to
            > Liz. :) "
            >
            > Oh yez? Just because I was named Elizabeth and born in England,
            > in the city of 'satanic mills' (Wm Blake) and now live in a place
            well
            > known to Raleigh et al? Might be seen as a green herring in some
            > circles! :-)
            >

            Why Liz, you're one of the greenest herrings I know. ; )


            > However, I suspect that Elizabeth knew she was being kept out of
            some of
            > the deeper machinations of the occult male world,

            I think a whole book could be written about this-- though to prove
            anything we'd have to go symbol by symbol, because it can only be
            argued in terms of images and associations. Early in her life,
            especially before she is Queen, it seems pretty clear Elizabeth is at
            the center of some sort of group of female initiates, probably what
            Margaret Alice Murray calls the witch cult.

            (BTW, just learned that her book "The Witch-Cult in Western Europe"
            is now all available on-line at:

            http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/wcwe/ )

            It would be interesting sometime to talk about how that symbolism,
            particularly of the Pearl, gives hints to how Elizabeth tries to
            magickally influence the court. I'm fairly sure she has a
            magickal "system" early on that, like that of the "witch cult"
            because they're the same, is focused at Yesod, and works pretty well
            at influencing local events. It doesn't work really well at
            influencing things beyond the local when one is up against the odds
            that she and other women of that time were up against. If I may be
            banal, its like trying to keep a small business in operation in the
            age of corporate takeovers.

            Not that there's some cut-off point where she switches from one sort
            of alchemical symbols to another, but one starts to predominate over
            the other, and those who have access to instruction in the latter are
            almost all male, except for a few curious exceptions like the
            alchemist Countess of Pembroke.

            (Now, if a student of mine wrote something as generalized as what I'd
            just typed, I'd insist they give some sort of explanation or
            examples, but for now I'll just turn it around and say: if anyone's
            interested in this, look and see if you can find the evidence. LOL.
            When life calms down some day, I'll do the same, and post it.)

            By the time period we're talking about, (at least) two things have
            changed:

            1. most of the women who were around her early on are dead, or
            neutralized by being married off to creeps.

            2. she has acquired some caballistic understanding from someone, and
            the someone has to be Dee. The magickal imagery shifts from a focal
            point at Yesod to Tiphareth.

            But at the same time this is happening, as almost all of the female
            players but Elizabeth are removed from the scene, yes, she is kept
            out of many of the machinations of that world: most particularly, she
            is kept out of the circles that don't involve Dee, who of course is
            gone for many years and comes back to a vastly different country.

            People who write of Dee's connection to the "spy networks" usually
            write that he worked for Francis Walsingham. If one looks at the
            symbolism, and considers the role a court magician would have, one
            sees that this can't possibly be true. Dee has to be, from
            Elizabeth's coronation on, the "head" of her intelligence network,
            and Walsingham (before Dee leaves) reports to Dee. While Dee is
            gone, Walsingham is behind all sorts of things Dee would never
            have "approved" of, but remember Walsingham is an operator who
            figures out how to do things in the physical; he's no magician
            intelligencer, but a spymaster of Malkuth. When Dee and Kelly leave,
            its a sign of how precarious things have become, but one shouldn't
            make the mistake of thinking that somehow he's sneaking out of the
            country before the Queen finds out about it. Its the Cecils he's
            trying to get away from, in the middle of the night with the help of
            the Stanleys, and they are going to a point where Dee (and Elizabeth,
            whom presumably has been advised) thinks he will have greater
            magickal leverage.

            LOL, leverage to do what, is the million dollar question? To herald
            in the "Golden Age." Examples? Ah, later.


            which just might
            > explain why Raleigh and Spenser arrived here in 1580 with the troops
            > and Lord Grey
            > de Wilton, respectively, under orders to seize (and inspect?) the
            Earl
            > of Desmond's library. I gather that c. 90 MS were received by her,
            but
            > the original library may well have been censored before ever
            leaving this
            > place.

            As I said in my other post, I would love to find more information on
            this, even if its legendary or guesswork. Any idea if some of those
            manuscripts were connected to St. Malachy?


            Admittedly this is sheer but intuitive guesswork on my part, as
            > I'm 'reading between the lines' of the outlines we've been handed
            down
            > and looking at how prevalent all-male secret societies have been.
            >
            > But it could explain her prevarication if she was unable to trust
            anyone
            > around her, and perhaps she saw the Cecils and their faction as a
            tool
            > to test her supposed closer followers/allies against?


            That's an interesting idea, though I think really she knows from
            early on that they're her greatest danger, and the people behind a
            host of deaths close to her, from her first Lord Treasurer Parry to
            Leicester's wife Amy Robsart. I think she makes the mistake of
            thinking she is smarter than Lord Burgley, and way overplays her
            hand.

            It would also depend
            > upon just how conscious she was on other levels, perhaps allowing
            herself
            > to be guided from a particular 'angelic' source, following Dee's
            lead? Would
            > she have entrusted that kind of information about herself to anyone
            else?
            > Did Love betray her in that sense, in pillow talk?


            Not sure what you mean here, unless you're referring again to
            the "who are Elizabeth's children" game. But since I'm the one who
            raised the question about why Elizabeth doesn't do something about
            the Cecils, consider that what may have "betrayed her" was her own
            rather odd interactions with her offspring.

            Yes, I am assuming she had some, but not Francis Bacon. In one of my
            more obsessive periods, I went through Agnes Strickland's book on
            Elizabeth (in the Lives of the Queens of England), which despite its
            weird Victorian prudishness is still the most detailed book I could
            find), and Strickland's sources to the degree I could get them, and
            tried to find times in Elizabeth's life when she could have had
            children. Then I matched that against some more recent books, and
            found that they were not as detailed as Strickland.

            I'm not alone in playing this game, so I also went through the works
            of others who had looked for the same thing-- mainly the Baconians.
            They usually come up with two: Francis Bacon and the Earl of Essex.
            Replace Bacon with the Countess of Pembroke, and for once I agree
            with them, though as I've said before, it should be obvious to anyone
            who studies Dee's circle that Bacon is on the "outside," not the
            inside, and serves as a perfect occult blind due to his sharing the
            same birth year as the Countess of Pembroke. Built into my argument
            is the assumption that the Queen's children would all have been
            magickal students of Dee, just as she and her brother Edward were.

            The events and strange controversies around the Earl of Essex (as
            well as his winding up at court and rising so fast) make much more
            sense if you factor him into the succession game as the Queen's son,
            as some Baconians do, and suppose that even as late as 1593 she still
            entertains some fantasy that he can somehow get over his misogynism
            and be acknowledged in time. Some of the later progresses,
            especially the one put on by Sir Henry Lee (who some say was
            Elizabsth's half-brother) seem to be using imagery to help magickally
            bring this about. It also might explain Francis Bacon's connection
            to Essex: Bacon is as syncophantic as he is smart, and perhaps knows
            Essex thinks he will be King. So Bacon attaches himself to Essex.
            When it becomes clear Essex is headed for the Tower instead, Bacon
            drops him and sucks onto James. Dee's group has had to cut their
            connection with Essex by the 1590s, because its become clear he's
            mainly a danger to himself and others, regardless of who his parents
            may be.

            But we have one more person who, even more than Essex, comes from
            nowhere and rises quickly at court, who is the Queen's favorite and
            who she seems unusually involved in the life of. That's Sir Walter
            Ralegh.

            Take a look at where he is born, supposedly to whom, and tell me how
            he possibly winds up at court being as favored as he is. Then take a
            look at his birthday, and you'll notice he's born right about the
            same time as when the teen-aged Elizabeth is "sick" and out of the
            public eye and even unable to have visitors for months, near the same
            time as when those who are taking care of her (one of whom is later
            killed, likely on Burgley's orders) are on trial because of
            the "supposed" romantic relations between Princess Elizabeth and
            Thomas Seymour. (Seymour is married to Queen Catharine Parr, who has
            outlived Henry VIII. Elizabeth lives in the household until
            Catharine sends her away due to her relations with Seymour; by then,
            I'd guess, Elizabeth is already pregnant. In a matter of months,
            Seymour is executed).

            Admittedly, I didn't connect this to Ralegh on my own. I figured out
            that Elizabeth could easily have been pregnant at that time, and
            started looking for who could have been born that year. Vincent
            suggested I look at court favorites who seemed to be there for no
            apparent reason . . . and the only name that pops up who is the right
            age is Walter Ralegh. I'd love to find others speculating on the
            topic, but he and I are the only two people I know.

            If Ralegh was Elizabeth's son, it makes most of what we see in the
            1590s make sense; it makes Dee's tolerating Adrian Gilbert (Ralegh's
            half-brother) make sense (as well as the Countess of Pembroke
            employing Gilbert); and it makes Essex's rivalry with Ralegh make
            sense. Just assume that Essex wants the crown but has been too
            messed up by the Cecils (remember he grew up in Burgley's household)
            to be trusted, and Ralegh is the first-born son but-- like the other
            possible heirs apparent, the Stanley brothers, and like the Wizard
            Earl of Northumberland--doesn't really want it. It also explains
            Elizabeth's reaction to both Ralegh and Essex's marraiges. As for
            Ralegh being from Devonshire . . . if you look at others close in the
            line of succession back in the 1550s, you find a Tudor cousin in
            Devonshire.

            Of course, I don't expect anyone here to buy this argument, and I'm
            pretty sure it will stay out of what Vincent and I are writing about
            Dee and Shakespeare. On the other hand, if you take it, please
            attribute. ; )

            By the way, this also helps account for the different attitudes
            Ralegh and Essex have towards the "Matter of Ireland." What is
            doesn't explain, still, is what all these different folks were
            looking for there, or what they found.

            It's a tricky one, as
            > even dreams come from an unknown source, and are often out of
            context,
            > just as with the words and voices I've sometimes heard.
            >
            > I do see that Raleigh, Spenser, the Boyles of Cork, and the
            Southwells,
            > the Throckmortons, and Parsons seem to have been in a very close
            circle,
            > partly due to their situation in a conquered land, and maybe also
            because
            > of their relationship with Elizabeth Ist, and that the Southwells
            were
            > not only Freemasons, but one was Robert Southwell, the Jesuit poet
            and
            > martyr.
            > The Jesuit relationship to the Church in Rome is also an intriguing
            one.
            > They've sometimes seemed to me, to be more reminiscent of the
            ancient
            > Druids' supposed attitude to learning than most other western
            religious
            > groups, at least from what my father told me of his experience with
            them.
            >


            Can you say more about what you mean here?

            Thanks!

            LVX,

            Terri
          • Terri Burns
            ... Meanwhile, one could also play the whatever happened to Henry VIII s illegitimate offspring game, just for yuks and to see how they impact the England
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 16, 2006
              --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Burns"
              <burnst@...> wrote:
              > Not sure what you mean here, unless you're referring again to
              > the "who are Elizabeth's children" game.


              Meanwhile, one could also play the "whatever happened to Henry
              VIII's "illegitimate" offspring game, just for yuks and to see how
              they impact the England of Dee's time.

              You'll find out he actually had many male offspring, and not just the
              ones that died young or stillborn, and not only "legitimate" Edward,
              born in 1536, the year after Henry axed Anne Boleyn. These offspring
              include Henry Fitzroy (put in the line of succession even
              though "illegitimate," but who died in . . . 1536), Sir John Perrott,
              Thomas Stukley, and Henry Carey. The last three often used to be
              spoken of as men "reputed" to be Henry VIII's sons, though more and
              more historians assume the reputation is the reality.

              You can find a Wikipedia listing of Henry VIII's offspring that most
              historians would agree with:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England

              What happenned to all these "illegitimate" royals when they grow up?
              Its curious that three of them, John Perrott, Catharine Carey, and
              Henry Carey, can be pretty easily connected to the circle around Dee,
              and Thomas Stukley to Robert Dudley, Dee's parton.

              John Perrott supposedly looked like Henry VIII and had his temper. He
              was close to Edward and Elizabeth, and caused all kinds of difficulty
              late in his life as the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. You can make
              some interesting and disturbing connections between Perrot's later
              years and the activities surrounding everyone from Dee to Essex to
              William Stanley. That he was in the circle around Dee may not mean
              that it was a very comfortable connection; it certainly was not so
              for Elizabeth, had years of trouble dealing with this explosive half-
              brother. Thomas Stukley was associated with the Seymours (connection
              to Thomas Seymour of early Elibethan scandals I looked act when
              making the argument about Ralegh as a possible son of Elizabeth), was
              from Devon (like Ralegh), but unlike Ralegh was a double or triple
              agent between France and England who actively supported his half-
              sister Mary and opposed the rule of his other half-sister, Elizabeth.

              The Carey family seems like a less problematic association. (Go
              ahead, ask for sources here if you need them and I'll pull out a
              stack, or just take the easy explanation that, unlike Perrot and
              Stukley, they are descendents of both the Tudors and Boleyns) These
              days, no one seems to dispute whether or not Henry Carey was Henry
              VIII's son by Mary Boleyn . . . mainly because the current heirs,
              Princes William and Harry, trace their ancestry back to Henry VIII
              via Henry Carey. Funny what a little royal support will do towards
              legitimizing the bloodline. When Dee was in the Tower, another Carey
              (Christopher Carey) was part of what looks like a Protestant cell
              surrounding Dee and supportnig Elizabeth (see discussion in Woolsey's
              book _The Queen's Conjurer_.)

              In looking for connections between Dee, Kelley, the Stanleys, and
              Shakespeare, this is of interest because, after Ferdinando Stanley
              Lord Strange dies/is killed in 1594, his players (which likely
              include Shakespeare and included Marlowe until his death-by-political-
              hit in 1593), Henry Carey, Lord Chamberlain and half-brother of the
              Queen, becomes their patron. Carey, like the Stanleys, Ralegh,
              Essex, and Henry Percy, appears part of the circles that Cecil and
              his spy ring considered "in the way" of their effort to put James I
              of Scotland on the throne. Dee has connections to everyone involved,
              so if you read his diary entries from his return to England in 1589,
              we should assume that what may be most important is what can't be
              said. (See earlier thread on the Hesketh plot, for instance, or
              message 553, the 1593-1594 timeline).

              For what that all is worth. Maybe its a good advertisement for
              people to not breed.

              LVX,

              Terri
            • Terri Burns
              ... most ... Oh, and I forgot to mention another little sub-thread no one (that I know of) seems to have followed . . . One of these children (and the only
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 16, 2006
                --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Burns"
                <burnst@...> wrote:

                > You can find a Wikipedia listing of Henry VIII's offspring that
                most
                > historians would agree with:
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England

                Oh, and I forgot to mention another little sub-thread no one (that I
                know of) seems to have followed . . .

                One of these children (and the only "illegitimate" daughter anyone
                tells us of, except of course, Elizabeth on the occasions she is
                called "illegitamate") is a woman named "Etheldreda Malte" who
                marries John Harrington and supposedly dies with no children. Anyone
                who wants to do a little digging might find interesting connections
                (back) to Dee's father and (foreward) to Shakespeare by following the
                lines connected to this group.

                Some help, by indirection:
                http://www.blackcountrysociety.co.uk/articles/bagley.htm

                Cheers,

                Terri
              • elfsbeth
                Terri, I find all this very fascinating and look forward to trying to help delve into it ... At the moment Elizabeth (Cate Blanchett) is on AMC - I m watching
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 16, 2006
                  Terri,
                  I find all this very fascinating and look forward to trying to help
                  delve into it ...
                  At the moment Elizabeth (Cate Blanchett) is on AMC - I'm watching it,
                  but so far her offering does not quite match the HBO one...
                  I'm not feeling up to par lately so I'll just keep these notes and be
                  hoping to get back with you all later,
                  Betsy

                  --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Burns"
                  <burnst@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "Terri
                  Burns"
                  > <burnst@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > You can find a Wikipedia listing of Henry VIII's offspring that
                  > most
                  > > historians would agree with:
                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England
                  >
                  > Oh, and I forgot to mention another little sub-thread no one (that
                  I
                  > know of) seems to have followed . . .
                  >
                  > One of these children (and the only "illegitimate" daughter anyone
                  > tells us of, except of course, Elizabeth on the occasions she is
                  > called "illegitamate") is a woman named "Etheldreda Malte" who
                  > marries John Harrington and supposedly dies with no children.
                  Anyone
                  > who wants to do a little digging might find interesting connections
                  > (back) to Dee's father and (foreward) to Shakespeare by following
                  the
                  > lines connected to this group.
                  >
                  > Some help, by indirection:
                  > http://www.blackcountrysociety.co.uk/articles/bagley.htm
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Terri
                  >
                • Terri Burns
                  ... Thanks . . . look forward to seeing what you come up with. BTW, along with posting many typos, I ve made at least one mistake-- Henry VIII had daughters
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 16, 2006
                    --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "elfsbeth"
                    <ClaireNoaell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Terri,
                    > I find all this very fascinating and look forward to trying to help
                    > delve into it ...

                    Thanks . . . look forward to seeing what you come up with.

                    BTW, along with posting many typos, I've made at least one mistake--
                    Henry VIII had daughters not in the line of succession other than
                    "Etheldreda Malte." I mentioned one of them, Catharine Carey, in an
                    earlier post. I suppose that should teach me not to write off the top
                    of my head (but it probably won't.)

                    Incidentally, you can find "Etheldreda Malte"'s name referred to
                    various ways . . . "Ethelreda Dingley," and "Audrey Dingley" to name a
                    couple. She was supposedly the daughter of Henry VIII's tailor (when
                    not being pointed out at the daughter of Henry VIII.) Dee's father,
                    remember, was a "gentleman sewer" (not server, as sometimes mis-
                    reported) of Henry VIII. She also winds up connected indirectly, via
                    Harrington, to the Ardens, Shakespeare's mother's family.
                  • Liz Forrest
                    Oh my goodness, thanks so much for the connections, especially the Dingley one, Terri. There s a family with a very similar name which traces back to Kerry
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 17, 2006
                      Oh my goodness, thanks so much for the connections, especially the
                      Dingley one, Terri. There's a family with a very similar name which
                      traces back to Kerry that I've often wondered about. Area of Kerry
                      known still as 'the Dingle'? O Driscolls would have connections
                      around that area too, Valencia Island, etc., being mariners with
                      history tracing back to being admirals for the Irish high kings. Was
                      Dee a name which stemmed from the use of the initial D? Use of the
                      name Delta has appeared in many spy stories. :-) Drus Ceoil (druid
                      of the wood?) also holds a D, Delta or Door connection as Druid and
                      Oak. I take it her first name indicates Anglo-Saxon heritage too?
                      Would much appreciate any other pointers and thanks for the url above.
                      Love, Liz

                      On 10/16/06, Terri Burns <burnst@...> wrote:
                      > --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "elfsbeth"
                      > <ClaireNoaell@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Terri,
                      > > I find all this very fascinating and look forward to trying to help
                      > > delve into it ...
                      >
                      > Thanks . . . look forward to seeing what you come up with.
                      >
                      > BTW, along with posting many typos, I've made at least one mistake--
                      > Henry VIII had daughters not in the line of succession other than
                      > "Etheldreda Malte." I mentioned one of them, Catharine Carey, in an
                      > earlier post. I suppose that should teach me not to write off the top
                      > of my head (but it probably won't.)
                      >
                      > Incidentally, you can find "Etheldreda Malte"'s name referred to
                      > various ways . . . "Ethelreda Dingley," and "Audrey Dingley" to name a
                      > couple. She was supposedly the daughter of Henry VIII's tailor (when
                      > not being pointed out at the daughter of Henry VIII.) Dee's father,
                      > remember, was a "gentleman sewer" (not server, as sometimes mis-
                      > reported) of Henry VIII. She also winds up connected indirectly, via
                      > Harrington, to the Ardens, Shakespeare's mother's family.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.