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Dee & Navigation

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  • ClaireNoaell@aol.com
    *This website http://www.light-of-truth.com/linktables.htm offers numerous links to information about Dr. John Dee, Francis Bacon, Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa,
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 12, 2004
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      *This website http://www.light-of-truth.com/linktables.htm offers numerous links to information about Dr. John Dee, Francis Bacon, Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, and more.
      A Great resource.
      ________________________________________________________________________
       
      Welcome to our group which has been created for discussion of the life and works of Dr. John Dee. 
       
      Since I'm particularly interested in Dee's contributions to navigation, I'll include in this post something from the following library.
       

      John Dee (1527-1608)

      General and rare memorials pertayning to the perfect arte of navigation: annexed to the paradoxal cumpas, in playne: now first published 24 yeres, after the first inuention thereof. Printed at London: By John Daye, anno 1577. [26], 80, [2] p.

      Acquired with the assistance of the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board.

      First edition of one of the numerous works by John Dee, the learned Elizabethan philosopher, mathematician, geographer, astronomer, astrologer and even alchemist. Occasional consultant to Queen Elizabeth (and other European royalty) on medical, astronomical and geographical questions, Dee advised the Queen on the title to her North American lands, and was consulted by Frobisher and Gilbert before their overseas ventures. This is a presentation copy to Edward Dyer, the courtier who recommended the work to the Queen. Dyer is said to have paid for its printing by the important London printer John Daye.

      co-moderator
      noaell
    • Aaron@Leitch.net
      Greetings, Folks! Looks like the first honest-to-God spinoff group has formed from Solomonic. LOL I ll make sure to copy (or move) any Enochian matieral we
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 12, 2004
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        Greetings, Folks!

        Looks like the first honest-to-God spinoff group has formed from Solomonic.
        LOL I'll make sure to copy (or move) any Enochian matieral we have on the
        Solomonic list over here.

        How many have signed on so far?

        LXV
        Aaron


        On 12 Apr 2004 at 18:30, ClaireNoaell@... wrote:

        >
        > *This website http://www.light-of-truth.com/linktables.htmoffers numerous links to information
        > about Dr. John Dee, Francis Bacon, Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, and more.
        > A Great resource.
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        >
        > Welcome toour group which has been created for discussion of the life and works of Dr. John
        > Dee.
        >
        > Since I'm particularly interested in Dee's contributions to navigation, I'll include in this post
        > something from the following library.
        >
        > Click here: Gifts to the National Library from the Friends of the National Library of Canada, 1992-
        > 2001
        > http://www.collectionscanada.ca/bulletin/p2-0111-04-e.html
        > John Dee (1527-1608)
        > General and rare memorials pertayning to the perfect arte of navigation: annexed to
        > the paradoxal cumpas, in playne: now first published 24 yeres, after the first inuention
        > thereof. Printed at London: By John Daye, anno 1577. [26], 80, [2] p.
        > Acquired with the assistance of the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board.
        > First edition of one of the numerous works by John Dee, the learned Elizabethan
        > philosopher, mathematician, geographer, astronomer, astrologer and even alchemist.
        > Occasional consultant to Queen Elizabeth (and other European royalty) on medical,
        > astronomical and geographical questions, Dee advised the Queen on the title to her
        > North American lands, and was consulted by Frobisher and Gilbert before their
        > overseas ventures. This is a presentation copy to Edward Dyer, the courtier who
        > recommended the work to the Queen. Dyer is said to have paid for its printing by the
        > important London printer John Daye.
        >
        >
        >
        > co-moderator
        >
        > noaell
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee/
        >
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        > AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
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        >
      • johnwkca
        Dear Noaell, ... life and ... navigation, I ll ... National ... Thank you for inviting me to this group. ASs often happens, this comes as the greatest
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 12, 2004
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          Dear Noaell,

          > Welcome to our group which has been created for discussion of the
          life and
          > works of Dr. John Dee.
          >
          > Since I'm particularly interested in Dee's contributions to
          navigation, I'll
          > include in this post something from the following library.
          >
          > Click here: Gifts to the National Library from the Friends of the
          National
          > Library of Canada, 1992-2001

          Thank you for inviting me to this group.

          ASs often happens, this comes as the greatest coincidence. I
          travelled to the Museum of Civilization in OPttawa last week -
          actualy to see three of the Dead Sea scrolls which were on display
          there - but also to see the rest of the exhibits.

          One of the exhibits is absolutely incredible and one of the best-laid
          out exhibits I've seen. It's a walk through historical Canada from
          west coast to east coast.

          One large section provided an overview of Martin Frobisher's
          explorations for the North-west passage and his mining operations on
          Baffin Island. Imagine my surprise when I bumped into a large
          portrait of John Dee, and several alchemical drawings from Georgius
          Agricola's "Di Re Metallica" (1556)! There was also a large map that
          Dee had drawn for Frobisher's trip. In fact, John Dee sponsored
          Frobisher's trip.

          Frobisher found what he thought was gold on one of the islands, and
          brought many shiploads back to England. One of the assayers found no
          gold content in the dark ore (black, heavy with shiny speckles) but
          one of the other assayers did. In ended up likely being iron pyrite
          (Fool's Gold), but who knows what use Dee may have actually made of
          it. To an alchemist, gold is not gold.

          Tomorrow I'll provide some of the links which describe the Frobisher
          exhibit.

          John
        • elfsbeth
          Hi John and Dan and thanks for joining! John, I m looking forward to more about the exhibits you saw. You also had the good fortune to visit the Ossuary at
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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            Hi John and Dan and thanks for joining!

            John, I'm looking forward to more about the exhibits you saw. You
            also had the good fortune to visit the Ossuary at the Royal Ontario
            Museum months ago, if I recall the right place.

            It would seem that John Dee sponsored trips when in fact the Queen
            could not directly politically or financially support the voyages.
            His gold is beginning to sound a bit like Berenger Sauniere's
            treasure only two hundred or so years before ;)

            Betsy Noaell


            --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "johnwkca"
            <aurealis@r...> wrote:
            > Dear Noaell,
            >
            > > Welcome to our group which has been created for discussion of the
            > life and
            > > works of Dr. John Dee.
            > >
            > > Since I'm particularly interested in Dee's contributions to
            > navigation, I'll
            > > include in this post something from the following library.
            > >
            > > Click here: Gifts to the National Library from the Friends of the
            > National
            > > Library of Canada, 1992-2001
            >
            > Thank you for inviting me to this group.
            >
            > ASs often happens, this comes as the greatest coincidence. I
            > travelled to the Museum of Civilization in OPttawa last week -
            > actualy to see three of the Dead Sea scrolls which were on display
            > there - but also to see the rest of the exhibits.
            >
            > One of the exhibits is absolutely incredible and one of the best-
            laid
            > out exhibits I've seen. It's a walk through historical Canada from
            > west coast to east coast.
            >
            > One large section provided an overview of Martin Frobisher's
            > explorations for the North-west passage and his mining operations
            on
            > Baffin Island. Imagine my surprise when I bumped into a large
            > portrait of John Dee, and several alchemical drawings from Georgius
            > Agricola's "Di Re Metallica" (1556)! There was also a large map
            that
            > Dee had drawn for Frobisher's trip. In fact, John Dee sponsored
            > Frobisher's trip.
            >
            > Frobisher found what he thought was gold on one of the islands, and
            > brought many shiploads back to England. One of the assayers found
            no
            > gold content in the dark ore (black, heavy with shiny speckles) but
            > one of the other assayers did. In ended up likely being iron pyrite
            > (Fool's Gold), but who knows what use Dee may have actually made of
            > it. To an alchemist, gold is not gold.
            >
            > Tomorrow I'll provide some of the links which describe the
            Frobisher
            > exhibit.
            >
            > John
          • elfsbeth
            ... Solomonic. ... on the ... We are now five with Terri coming back to post today. Dan is here and I hope that Karri will join soon. John is a very dear
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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              --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L...
              wrote:
              > Greetings, Folks!
              >
              > Looks like the first honest-to-God spinoff group has formed from
              Solomonic.
              > LOL I'll make sure to copy (or move) any Enochian matieral we have
              on the
              > Solomonic list over here.
              >
              > How many have signed on so far?
              >
              > LXV
              > Aaron
              >

              We are now five with Terri coming back to post today. Dan is here and
              I hope that Karri will join soon.
              John is a very dear friend with whom I've had the good fortune to
              meet and greet on and off a number of e-groups, and learn so much
              from his writings.

              Everyone here so far has either written, or is writing, manuscripts
              and books and this group space will help to offer links, information,
              and materials for current and future endeavors.

              You said a copyright notice for members' ownership of anything they
              will be publishing can be stated either on the files they upload,
              posts they make, or in fact a general statement on the homepage? How
              should we word that and where?

              While I'm not writing a book, Dan's Dad might yet get around to his
              promised version of "How to fix everything" :) He is a retired
              journalist and does get half the space on this pc :/

              Noaell
            • Terri Burns
              ... Solomonic. ... on the ... Thanks! Please do. ... Looks like there s seven of us already! Terri
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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                --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L... wrote:
                > Greetings, Folks!
                >
                > Looks like the first honest-to-God spinoff group has formed from
                Solomonic.
                > LOL I'll make sure to copy (or move) any Enochian matieral we have
                on the
                > Solomonic list over here.
                >

                Thanks! Please do.



                > How many have signed on so far?
                >

                Looks like there's seven of us already!

                Terri
              • Terri Burns
                ... Such coincidences seem to be escalating these days, don t they! Welcome, John. It seems we have been in quite a few of the same groups over the past
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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                  --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, "johnwkca"
                  <aurealis@r...> wrote:

                  > ASs often happens, this comes as the greatest coincidence. I
                  > travelled to the Museum of Civilization in OPttawa last week -
                  > actualy to see three of the Dead Sea scrolls which were on display
                  > there - but also to see the rest of the exhibits.

                  Such coincidences seem to be escalating these days, don't they!
                  Welcome, John. It seems we have been in quite a few of the same
                  groups over the past couple of years. (Maybe we can restart
                  discussions of Giordano Bruno or Thomas Vaughn again, too, as both
                  connect without much difficulty to Dee.)


                  > One of the exhibits is absolutely incredible and one of the best-laid
                  > out exhibits I've seen. It's a walk through historical Canada from
                  > west coast to east coast.
                  >
                  > One large section provided an overview of Martin Frobisher's
                  > explorations for the North-west passage and his mining operations on
                  > Baffin Island. Imagine my surprise when I bumped into a large
                  > portrait of John Dee, and several alchemical drawings from Georgius
                  > Agricola's "Di Re Metallica" (1556)! There was also a large map that
                  > Dee had drawn for Frobisher's trip. In fact, John Dee sponsored
                  > Frobisher's trip.
                  >
                  > Frobisher found what he thought was gold on one of the islands, and
                  > brought many shiploads back to England. One of the assayers found no
                  > gold content in the dark ore (black, heavy with shiny speckles) but
                  > one of the other assayers did. In ended up likely being iron pyrite
                  > (Fool's Gold), but who knows what use Dee may have actually made of
                  > it. To an alchemist, gold is not gold.
                  >
                  > Tomorrow I'll provide some of the links which describe the Frobisher
                  > exhibit.

                  Look forward to seeing them--thanks!

                  LVX,

                  Terri
                • Aaron@Leitch.net
                  ... Seven! Ha! :) LVX Aaron
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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                    On 13 Apr 2004 at 14:54, Terri Burns wrote:

                    > > How many have signed on so far?
                    >
                    > Looks like there's seven of us already!

                    Seven! Ha! :)

                    LVX
                    Aaron
                  • Aaron@Leitch.net
                    ... We can put the one on the main web page. But it also seems to me that we can have the list append a copyright notice to every post that is mailed out...
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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                      On 13 Apr 2004 at 12:13, elfsbeth wrote:

                      > You said a copyright notice for members' ownership of anything they
                      > will be publishing can be stated either on the files they upload,
                      > posts they make, or in fact a general statement on the homepage? How
                      > should we word that and where?

                      We can put the one on the main web page. But it also seems to me that we
                      can have the list append a copyright notice to every post that is mailed out...

                      > While I'm not writing a book, Dan's Dad might yet get around to his
                      > promised version of "How to fix everything" :) He is a retired
                      > journalist and does get half the space on this pc :/

                      You haven't written a book, but you're our organizer over here. :):)

                      LVX
                      Aaron
                    • johnwkca
                      ... Hi Terri! Good to hear from you again - somehow we keep bumping into each other :-) Yes, Giordano Bruno and Thomas Vaughan do connect. ... Frobisher ... It
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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                        > Such coincidences seem to be escalating these days, don't they!
                        > Welcome, John. It seems we have been in quite a few of the same
                        > groups over the past couple of years. (Maybe we can restart
                        > discussions of Giordano Bruno or Thomas Vaughn again, too, as both
                        > connect without much difficulty to Dee.)

                        Hi Terri! Good to hear from you again - somehow we keep bumping into
                        each other :-) Yes, Giordano Bruno and Thomas Vaughan do connect.


                        > > Tomorrow I'll provide some of the links which describe the
                        Frobisher
                        > > exhibit.
                        >
                        > Look forward to seeing them--thanks!

                        It will have to be later after all. I was at the Library for several
                        hours tonight finalizing the transcription of an old handwritten
                        alchemical treatise (1384) using their microfilm reader. After that I
                        had several chores, and only now am able to take a quick look at the
                        messages.

                        While I was at the Library tonight, I picked up a copy of Robert
                        Ruby's "Unknown Shore: The Lost History of England's Arctic Colony".
                        This is all about John Dee and Martin Frobisher and the whole story
                        about the Arctic exploraitons and search for gold (written in 2001).
                        According to Ruby, they have now identified the black stone,
                        originally thought to contain gold. Here is his description:

                        "You can still find on Kodlunarn island outcrops of the black ore
                        that so enthralled Martin Frobisher and, much later, Charles Francis
                        Hall. Glossy with silver sparkles, the black rock scattered on the
                        island's surface has a satisfying heft and does not easily shatter or
                        flake."

                        "The rock is hornblende; mica accounts for the sparkles. In the
                        sixteenth century, as now, hornblende had no special value. Mount
                        Vesuvius is rich in hornblende, and so is New York City. Donald
                        Hogarth, a Canadian geologost who has devoted many years to the
                        subject, determined that the black rock contained less gold than one
                        might find in formations chosen elsewhere at random. The earth's
                        crust has (on average) three and a half parts gold for every billion
                        parts of other crustal constituents; the black ore from Kodlunarn
                        Island contains two to two and a half parts gold."

                        [Page 257]

                        I look forward to reading this as it contains a lot of interesitng
                        information about Dee.

                        I recalled a book I had purchased some time ago and dug into my own
                        library not long ago, to find it. It's called "The Enochian Magick of
                        Dr. John Dee" by Geoffrey James (Llewellyn Publications, 1994). Is
                        anyone else familiar with this book? He apparently recieved the
                        secrets of Enochian Magick while channeling spirits through the body
                        of his associate, Edward Kelly. This book is a transcription of Dee's
                        most important private magical notebooks, including a definitive
                        version of the famous Angelical Calls and other occult experiments.
                        It includes Dee's system of planetary and elemental magick. These are
                        the original source texts that inspired MacGregor Mathers, A.E.
                        Waite, Aleister Crowley, Israel Regardie, and many others.

                        I'll try to respond to other messages tomorrow.

                        John
                      • Aaron@Leitch.net
                        Greetings All! I know many of you here know a thing or three about historical Alchemy. So this is a good question to toss at you guys: I m looking for pre-Dee
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 13, 2004
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                          Greetings All!

                          I know many of you here know a thing or three about historical Alchemy. So
                          this is a good question to toss at you guys:

                          I'm looking for pre-Dee references to the "Black Cross" (which I am
                          assuming is identical with the Black Dragon). Here is a post I just put on
                          Solomonic about it:

                          ----------------------------

                          On 13 Apr 2004 at 22:49, rdelupos@... wrote:

                          > Greetings Aaron,
                          >
                          > You wrote:
                          >
                          > The Great Table (all four Tablets combined) is held together by the "Black
                          Cross"- an Alchemical
                          > reference.
                          >
                          > Rey:
                          >
                          > Can you tell me what that Black cross' alchemical reference refers to?
                          > Putrefaction? or Saturn? or..??

                          A quick search of the Net isn't turning up anything historical for me to quote.
                          (Looking for established alchemical sources that mention the Black Cross.)
                          I need to find one, in fact, so if anyone can find a reference, I'd love to know!

                          At any rate, even if the term originates with Dee, it should be a concept very
                          similar (or identical to) the Black Dragon of matter. That is: death,
                          putrification and decay. Related to Alchemical Saturn, as you suggested.

                          This can be the only explanation as to why Dee (or the Angels) would bind
                          together the four Holy Watchtowers of the Universe with something called a
                          "Black Cross." It would be a further aspect of the Gnosticism at the heart of
                          Dee's magickal system. The Black Cross represents the binding and
                          restrictive forces of the physical world- the deep mire into which Adam "fell"
                          when he lost Paradise. (That is- when spiritual essence became bound to
                          physical matter.)

                          Note that, in Dee's original system, most of the letters of the Black Cross
                          are used to generate the names of goetic spirits. Once again a reference to
                          the physical (material) nature of the Black Cross.

                          Therefore, the Black Cross (or Black Dragon) represents the mortal and
                          impure aspects of matter- the parts that are burned away as black smoke in
                          the alchemical furnace. Physical dross.

                          LVX
                          Aaron
                        • ClaireNoaell@aol.com
                          In a message dated 4/13/2004 11:35:51 PM Central Standard Time, aurealis@rogers.com writes: I recalled a book I had purchased some time ago and dug into my own
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 14, 2004
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                            In a message dated 4/13/2004 11:35:51 PM Central Standard Time, aurealis@... writes:
                            I recalled a book I had purchased some time ago and dug into my own
                            library not long ago, to find it. It's called "The Enochian Magick of
                            Dr. John Dee" by Geoffrey James (Llewellyn Publications, 1994). Is
                            anyone else familiar with this book?  He apparently recieved the
                            secrets of Enochian Magick while channeling spirits through the body
                            of his associate, Edward Kelly. This book is a transcription of Dee's
                            most important private magical notebooks, including a definitive
                            version of the famous Angelical Calls and other occult experiments.
                            It includes Dee's system of planetary and elemental magick. These are
                            the original source texts that inspired MacGregor Mathers, A.E.
                            Waite, Aleister Crowley, Israel Regardie, and many others.

                            We have an authority on Enochian Magick right here :)
                            Aaron has also written a book that is set to be released soon. 
                             
                            Others here may also have inklings of the communications.
                             
                            While I do not know very much about Dee and Kelly's contacts, except a cursory look, my daughter in law, who I hope will join soon, has read and written about the angelic channelings.
                             
                            Please do write when you have time also about the book "Unknown Shore: The Lost History of England's Arctic Colony".
                            Betsy
                          • Terri Burns
                            ... Alchemy. So ... just put on ... the Black ... refers to? ... me to quote. ... Cross.) ... love to know! ... concept very ... death, ... suggested. ...
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 14, 2004
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                              --- In AlchemistRoyalAdvisorDrJohnDee@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L...
                              wrote:
                              > Greetings All!
                              >
                              > I know many of you here know a thing or three about historical
                              Alchemy. So
                              > this is a good question to toss at you guys:
                              >
                              > I'm looking for pre-Dee references to the "Black Cross" (which I am
                              > assuming is identical with the Black Dragon). Here is a post I
                              just put on
                              > Solomonic about it:
                              >
                              > ----------------------------
                              >
                              > On 13 Apr 2004 at 22:49, rdelupos@c... wrote:
                              >
                              > > Greetings Aaron,
                              > >
                              > > You wrote:
                              > >
                              > > The Great Table (all four Tablets combined) is held together by
                              the "Black
                              > Cross"- an Alchemical
                              > > reference.
                              > >
                              > > Rey:
                              > >
                              > > Can you tell me what that Black cross' alchemical reference
                              refers to?
                              > > Putrefaction? or Saturn? or..??
                              >
                              > A quick search of the Net isn't turning up anything historical for
                              me to quote.
                              > (Looking for established alchemical sources that mention the Black
                              Cross.)
                              > I need to find one, in fact, so if anyone can find a reference, I'd
                              love to know!
                              >
                              > At any rate, even if the term originates with Dee, it should be a
                              concept very
                              > similar (or identical to) the Black Dragon of matter. That is:
                              death,
                              > putrification and decay. Related to Alchemical Saturn, as you
                              suggested.
                              >
                              > This can be the only explanation as to why Dee (or the Angels)
                              would bind
                              > together the four Holy Watchtowers of the Universe with something
                              called a
                              > "Black Cross." It would be a further aspect of the Gnosticism at
                              the heart of
                              > Dee's magickal system. The Black Cross represents the binding and
                              > restrictive forces of the physical world- the deep mire into which
                              Adam "fell"
                              > when he lost Paradise. (That is- when spiritual essence became
                              bound to
                              > physical matter.)
                              >
                              > Note that, in Dee's original system, most of the letters of the
                              Black Cross
                              > are used to generate the names of goetic spirits. Once again a
                              reference to
                              > the physical (material) nature of the Black Cross.
                              >
                              > Therefore, the Black Cross (or Black Dragon) represents the mortal
                              and
                              > impure aspects of matter- the parts that are burned away as black
                              smoke in
                              > the alchemical furnace. Physical dross.
                              >
                              > LVX
                              > Aaron

                              Aaron,

                              I've worked from the assumption that the Black Cross represents a
                              black Cube of Space "unpacked," (unfold a cube, and you get a cross)
                              in a sense the mysteries of time and space bound in Malkuth. From
                              there, its easier to connect what he and Kelly were doing to sacred
                              geometry.

                              Sorry to be so abstract . . . this is just a working assumption, and
                              I don't really get started on this project until July! But by the
                              time Dee returns to England, and after Kelly has written his tracts
                              on alchemical theater, we find early drawings for the Globe and other
                              theaters that seem to connect to what both men were doing, and
                              involve very detailed geometries based on the Cube of Space.

                              LVX,

                              Terri

                              P.S. also, not sure which list to post the response to, so I posted
                              to both.
                            • ClaireNoaell@aol.com
                              In a message dated 4/14/2004 1:16:58 AM Central Standard Time, Aaron@Leitch.net writes: Therefore, the Black Cross (or Black Dragon) represents the mortal and
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 14, 2004
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                                In a message dated 4/14/2004 1:16:58 AM Central Standard Time, Aaron@... writes:
                                Therefore, the Black Cross (or Black Dragon) represents the mortal and
                                impure aspects of matter- the parts that are burned away as black smoke in
                                the alchemical furnace.  Physical dross.

                                I have read that in the grade of Practicus there is mentioned the Black Dragon in concert with "Solve et Coagula" alchemical process.  Would you Aaron, or anyone, be able to elaborate on this for me? 

                                Noaell Betsy

                              • Aaron@Leitch.net
                                ... Hmmmm.... I certainly understand what you re saying. Although, the math bugs me a bit. The Black Cross is equal-armed, while the Cube opened out as a
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 14, 2004
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                                  On 14 Apr 2004 at 15:37, Terri Burns wrote:

                                  > Aaron,
                                  >
                                  > I've worked from the assumption that the Black Cross represents a
                                  > black Cube of Space "unpacked," (unfold a cube, and you get a cross)
                                  > in a sense the mysteries of time and space bound in Malkuth. From
                                  > there, its easier to connect what he and Kelly were doing to sacred
                                  > geometry.

                                  Hmmmm.... I certainly understand what you're saying. Although, the math
                                  bugs me a bit. The Black Cross is equal-armed, while the Cube opened out
                                  as a Cross actually forms a Calvary Cross (with a longer lower-arm, such as
                                  a Crucifix).

                                  > Sorry to be so abstract . . . this is just a working assumption, and
                                  > I don't really get started on this project until July! But by the
                                  > time Dee returns to England, and after Kelly has written his tracts
                                  > on alchemical theater, we find early drawings for the Globe and other
                                  > theaters that seem to connect to what both men were doing, and
                                  > involve very detailed geometries based on the Cube of Space.

                                  I can dig it. I'm dealing with something of a working assumption that the
                                  Black Cross must relate to matter somehow, and therefore my Black
                                  Dragon rambling. :)

                                  LVX
                                  Aaron
                                • Aaron@Leitch.net
                                  ... Not really... what you saw in my post pretty much explains exactly what the Black Dragon is. Nothing more to it than that. :) Anything further would
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 14, 2004
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                                    On 14 Apr 2004 at 11:43, ClaireNoaell@... wrote:

                                    > In a message dated 4/14/2004 1:16:58 AM Central Standard Time, Aaron@... writes:
                                    > Therefore, the Black Cross (or Black Dragon) represents the mortal and
                                    > impure aspects of matter- the parts that are burned away as black smoke in
                                    > the alchemical furnace. Physical dross.
                                    > I have read that in the grade of Practicus there is mentioned the Black Dragon in concert with
                                    > "Solve et Coagula" alchemical process. Would you Aaron, or anyone, be able to elaborate on
                                    > this for me?

                                    Not really... what you saw in my post pretty much explains exactly what the
                                    Black Dragon is. Nothing more to it than that. :)

                                    Anything further would have to go into explanations of the Alchemical
                                    process itself- seperating the Mercury (spiritual essence) from the original
                                    physical matter and then burning off the impurities. Those impurities are
                                    symbolized by the Black Dragon.

                                    LVX
                                    Aaron
                                  • johnwkca
                                    ... Frobisher ... Here are some of the links. There are many, but you can navigate around from any one of them. Here s a picture of Frobisher s black ore, the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 14, 2004
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                                      > > Tomorrow I'll provide some of the links which describe the
                                      Frobisher
                                      > > exhibit.
                                      >
                                      > Look forward to seeing them--thanks!

                                      Here are some of the links. There are many, but you can navigate
                                      around from any one of them.

                                      Here's a picture of Frobisher's black ore, the very samples I saw:

                                      http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/images/frcot05b.jpg

                                      Here's another picture:

                                      http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/frpos01e.html

                                      There are still many samples that can be found in Dartford, Kent.
                                      Some of the rock washed up on the coast of Ireland after the wreck of
                                      one of his ships. It was re-used along with other stones in building
                                      a wall in Dartford. It still stands today and you can see pictures of
                                      the black stones embedded in the wall at:

                                      http://www.ric.edu/rpotter/frobisher/dartfordwall.html

                                      and

                                      http://www.ric.edu/rpotter/frobisher/dartfordwall2.html


                                      Here's one that talks about the ore:

                                      http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/frsub08e.html#baffinore4

                                      See also the following for a picture of the volanic-looking island
                                      where the ore was found:

                                      http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/fr57801e.html

                                      Here's the most interesting one regarding John Dee:

                                      http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/frsub06e.html


                                      John
                                    • johnwkca
                                      Hi Aaron and forum, ... Alchemy. So ... Black is a most important colour in alchemy. The cross is also used as a symbol, but mostly in reference to the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 14, 2004
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                                        Hi Aaron and forum,

                                        > I know many of you here know a thing or three about historical
                                        Alchemy. So
                                        > this is a good question to toss at you guys:
                                        >
                                        > I'm looking for pre-Dee references to the "Black Cross" (which I am
                                        > assuming is identical with the Black Dragon).

                                        "Black" is a most important colour in alchemy. The "cross" is also
                                        used as a symbol, but mostly in reference to the Earth symbol and the
                                        antimony symbol. It is also sometimes used as a symbol when the
                                        serpent is crucified on the cross. I have read many alchemical
                                        treatises, and have never come across any symbols which combine thw
                                        two as a "black cross". Thus I think that the "black cross" is an
                                        adaptation by the Magick group, perhaps as a double symbol to also
                                        represent the alchmemists' initial black substance.

                                        In alchemy "black" represents putrefaction or decay, and represents
                                        the mass of black substance or "faeces' at the bottom of the vessel.
                                        it is most often called "Black Crow", "Raven" or "Toad". This black
                                        mass or "materia prima" is heated, leading using the process of
                                        calcination (dry way) or the process of putrefaction, a slow, rotting
                                        or digestion over a period of weeks or months (wet way). The dragon
                                        is rarely used to symbolize this stage since it is a very complex
                                        symbol representing various other operations. I have seen it called
                                        the "black dragon" in treatises by Sir George Ripley and Alexandre
                                        Toussaint de Limojon, Sieur de Saint-Didier.

                                        The black cross is depicted in a book called "Raphael" by Abraham von
                                        Franckenberg, a Rosicrucian from Wroclaw in Silesia (part of Bohemia
                                        at the time). In it is a picture of a mandala which represents the
                                        round altar in the centre of the Vault described in the "Fama". In
                                        the centre is a picture of Jesus Christ. On one side of his breast is
                                        a smal rose-petalled flower, likely a rose. In the middle is a black
                                        cross. You can see a picture of it here:

                                        http://www.levity.com/alchemy/g_work.html

                                        John
                                      • Aaron@Leitch.net
                                        Greetings John! ... This is pretty much the route of logic I was taking. We understand the Black color and the Cross symbolism, and I have a strong feeling
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 15, 2004
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                                          Greetings John!

                                          On 15 Apr 2004 at 1:31, johnwkca wrote:

                                          > Hi Aaron and forum,

                                          > > I'm looking for pre-Dee references to the "Black Cross" (which I am
                                          > > assuming is identical with the Black Dragon).
                                          >
                                          > "Black" is a most important colour in alchemy. The "cross" is also
                                          > used as a symbol, but mostly in reference to the Earth symbol and the
                                          > antimony symbol.
                                          > It is also sometimes used as a symbol when the
                                          > serpent is crucified on the cross. I have read many alchemical
                                          > treatises, and have never come across any symbols which combine thw
                                          > two as a "black cross". Thus I think that the "black cross" is an
                                          > adaptation by the Magick group, perhaps as a double symbol to also
                                          > represent the alchmemists' initial black substance.

                                          This is pretty much the route of logic I was taking. We understand the Black
                                          color and the Cross symbolism, and I have a strong feeling that Dee
                                          intended these two symbols in his own Black Cross.

                                          > In alchemy "black" represents putrefaction or decay, and represents
                                          > the mass of black substance or "faeces' at the bottom of the vessel.
                                          > it is most often called "Black Crow", "Raven" or "Toad".

                                          We can see how relating this to Dee's "Great Table" (i.e.- the physical
                                          universe) makes for a very Gnostic view of reality. The spiritual forces of
                                          the Watchtowers are mired in (bound by) this Black matter- resulting in the
                                          universe we see.

                                          > This black
                                          > mass or "materia prima" is heated, leading using the process of
                                          > calcination (dry way) or the process of putrefaction, a slow, rotting
                                          > or digestion over a period of weeks or months (wet way). The dragon
                                          > is rarely used to symbolize this stage since it is a very complex
                                          > symbol representing various other operations. I have seen it called
                                          > the "black dragon" in treatises by Sir George Ripley and Alexandre
                                          > Toussaint de Limojon, Sieur de Saint-Didier.

                                          Could you elaborate on this point just a bit? What exactly does the Black
                                          Dragon represent in the classical alchemy texts? I only know it as a symbol
                                          of Death, Putrification, and Decay.

                                          > The black cross is depicted in a book called "Raphael" by Abraham von
                                          > Franckenberg, a Rosicrucian from Wroclaw in Silesia (part of Bohemia
                                          > at the time). In it is a picture of a mandala which represents the
                                          > round altar in the centre of the Vault described in the "Fama". In
                                          > the centre is a picture of Jesus Christ. On one side of his breast is
                                          > a smal rose-petalled flower, likely a rose. In the middle is a black
                                          > cross. You can see a picture of it here:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.levity.com/alchemy/g_work.html

                                          Awesome!

                                          Though, I'm not seeing a Black Cross in this image. Maybe I need better
                                          resolution. Is the Black Cross in the middle of that small rose on the right of
                                          Jesus? I can't make out much of anything there...

                                          LVX
                                          Aaron
                                        • Andreas
                                          I found this quote from: Arctic Fabulous: Speculative Fiction and the Imaginary Arctic By Siobhan Carroll 21 November 2005
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 14, 2010
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                                            I found this quote from:

                                            Arctic Fabulous: Speculative Fiction and the Imaginary Arctic
                                            By Siobhan Carroll
                                            21 November 2005
                                            http://www.strangehorizons.com/2005/20051121/arctic-fabulous-a.shtml

                                            There is also featured guesswork both later and earlier about the arctic climes.

                                            Andreas

                                            Elizabeth I summoned her court astrologer and learned advisor, John Dee, and told him to come up with an argument for British sovereignty in the Arctic. Dee obliged her with a report that dated England's Arctic claims back to King Arthur. When he wasn't pulling swords out of stones and dispatching knights to slay dragons, King Arthur apparently mounted expeditions to the Arctic. Dee claimed that Arthur "even unto the North Pole . . . did extend his Jurisdiction: And sent Colonies thither" (qtd. in McGhee 28).
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