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Re: A-109 Improvement

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  • selfoscillate
    hello zoran, cem3380/3381 are used in the a134, a135 and in the old a130 and a131. the newer a130 and a131 use the ca3080 chip, just like the a132. if you
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 7, 2005
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      hello zoran,

      cem3380/3381 are used in the a134, a135 and in
      the old a130 and a131.

      the newer a130 and a131 use the ca3080 chip,
      just like the a132.

      if you dislike exponential vca's (the a109 vca is
      not really exponential, just partly) and if you don't
      need amplitude modulation at audio speed, you
      should try the a101/2 lpg as vca, which has
      a more logarithmic response (because of the vactrols).

      best wishes

      ingo



      --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran Bosnjak" <dj_allin@h...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Florian,
      >
      > I use A-109 VCA as my only exponential VCA on the system. I have 2
      A-132
      > dual VCAs (linear), and I just started utilizing them lately. What
      modules
      > do have CEM3380/3381 ? Regards,
      >
      > Zoran
      >
      >
      >
      > >From: Florian Anwander <Florian.Anwander@c...>
      > >Reply-To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] A-109 Improvement
      > >Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:04:12 +0200
      > >
      > >Hi Zoran
      > >
      > >
      > > > of the same module. Without VCA on A-109, the filter becomes
      very smooth
      > >-
      > > > it is a small difference, but possible to hear. And because of
      that
      > > > smoothness, suddenly this filter has a strength/beauty in a mix
      that was
      > >not
      > > > present before.
      > >What kind of VCA do you use instead?
      > >
      > > > So, two conclusions: A-109 filter is more than "just decent",
      it's
      > >actually
      > > > very good. And by getting the module, you are getting low
      quality VCA,
      > >that
      > > > can impact your sound (well, you can always find CV duty for
      VCA on your
      > > > system).
      > >I do not think, that the VCA in the CEM3379 does differ from that
      in the
      > > CEM3380/3381. And the latter ones are those everyone claims
      that they
      > >are the "highend" VCAs...
      > >
      > >Florian
      > >
    • Florian Anwander
      Hello John ... Sorry, this is a germanism . I looked up dict.leo.org and found that I should have written: A-130 and A-131 respectively . In German you do
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 7, 2005
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        Hello John

        >>The A-130 resp. A-131
        > Somewhat off topic - but what does "resp." mean in this context? It's
        > used throughout the English translation of the .pdf manuals. Probably a
        > goofy question - but I've been curious about it.
        Sorry, this is a "germanism". I looked up dict.leo.org and found that I
        should have written: "A-130 and A-131 respectively". In German you do
        not say "X and Y respectively", but simply "X respektive Y".

        Could I say "X or rather Y" ?

        Florian
      • Bakis Sirros
        hello florian, thanks for the explanation. i had this question for many years! now i understand why i never figured out what the X resp. Y meant. bakis. ...
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 7, 2005
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          hello florian,
          thanks for the explanation. i had this question for
          many years! now i understand why i never figured out
          what the "X resp. Y" meant.
          bakis.






          --- Florian Anwander <Florian.Anwander@...>
          wrote:
          > Hello John
          >
          > >>The A-130 resp. A-131
          > > Somewhat off topic - but what does "resp." mean in
          > this context? It's
          > > used throughout the English translation of the
          > .pdf manuals. Probably a
          > > goofy question - but I've been curious about it.
          > Sorry, this is a "germanism". I looked up
          > dict.leo.org and found that I
          > should have written: "A-130 and A-131 respectively".
          > In German you do
          > not say "X and Y respectively", but simply "X
          > respektive Y".
          >
          > Could I say "X or rather Y" ?
          >
          > Florian
          >
          >

          Bakis Siros
          Parallel Worlds / Polariton
          Athens-Greece
          [Doepfer_a100] group owner
          http://www.shimarecords.co.uk
          http://www.ward12.com



          __________________________________
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        • synthtrader
          hello,
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 7, 2005
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            hello,

            << I read so many posts about A-109 that were saying "this module is
            good for starters, you get decent filter, VCA, and panner."
            [snip] So, two conclusions: A-109 filter is more than "just decent",
            it's actually very good. >>

            I think the description of 'decent', 'generic', 'vanilla' or whatever
            other words were used by myself and/or others describe more the
            feature set as opposed to the way it sounds.

            Thanks,

            Shawn Cleary
            www.analoguehaven.com
          • jkn@johei.com
            ... Thank you! Now it makes complete sense. I d assumed that s what it meant, but I couldn t quite work it out and I d pause and think about it when I saw it
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 7, 2005
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              >
              > Hello John
              >
              >>>The A-130 resp. A-131
              >> Somewhat off topic - but what does "resp." mean in this context? It's
              >> used throughout the English translation of the .pdf manuals. Probably
              >> a
              >> goofy question - but I've been curious about it.
              > Sorry, this is a "germanism". I looked up dict.leo.org and found that I
              > should have written: "A-130 and A-131 respectively". In German you do
              > not say "X and Y respectively", but simply "X respektive Y".
              >
              > Could I say "X or rather Y" ?
              >
              > Florian
              >

              Thank you! Now it makes complete sense. I'd assumed that's what it
              meant, but I couldn't quite work it out and I'd pause and think about it
              when I saw it in the manuals. I think in English the "X and Y
              respectively" would be common if you're referring to something like
              "Linear and Exponential on X and Y respectively". On the other hand - no
              reason to change the way you're writing it, this is extremely minor - I'm
              just grateful it's translated into English at all since I can't speak/read
              German!

              Speaking of the .pdf manuals - they are wonderful resources. Especially
              being able to read them before purchasing. I've printed out the majority
              of them for researching which modules will go into my system. Thanks to
              everyone involved with writing (and translating) them.

              John K-N
            • andreasnoa
              ... Yes, it s dark blue, same coated paint as used on the Waldorf Pulse. The full name is Waldorf miniWORKS 4pole . I can only agree to earlier comments about
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 19, 2005
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                --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran Bosnjak" <dj_allin@h...>
                wrote:
                > Oops, Waldorf pole is not orange, it is blue, right ?
                >
                > Zoran
                >

                Yes, it's dark blue, same coated paint as used on the Waldorf Pulse.
                The full name is "Waldorf miniWORKS 4pole".
                I can only agree to earlier comments about how good it sounds.

                Further, I'm trying to add Filter Cutoff and Resonance CV Inputs to
                mine, which should be a nice addition to the A100 system I'll be
                getting soon. It's based on a CEM 3387 (2x 2pole Lowpass, 4x VCA),
                so that should be fairly easy to do.

                Cheers,

                Andreas

                P.S.: I'm new to this group, so a big Hello to you all :D









                > >From: "Zoran Bosnjak" <dj_allin@h...>
                > >Reply-To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Re: A-109 Improvement
                > >Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 15:07:28 +0000
                > >
                > >
                > >Thanks for the excellent response Ingo. Everybody reading this
                post, please
                > >notice that after all, it is only my perception that by bypassing
                VCA
                > >entirely in my bass patch, the A-109 filter got its character
                improved by
                > >getting slighly smoother, almost liquidy quality. Almost like VCA
                was
                > >holding it back - now its more even (smooth). When I am saying
                more even,
                > >imagine curve of the sound as being curved (obvious), but no dents
                in the
                > >line. With VCA, it is almost like curve is dented, uneven, with
                slight
                > >changes in volume. I did the test by opening the AMP knob on A-109
                > >completely. I could even hear slight noise (but negligible, and
                remember
                > >that's with AMP knob open full, and no envelope applied).
                > >What manfacturers do with their chip/filter application is still
                mystery to
                > >me. This is my third encounter with the same chip - I also have
                Microwave
                > >I,
                > >and I used to own Waldorf pole filter (forgot the name, that small
                orange
                > >thing). And that Waldorf standalone filter unit sounded
                unbelievable
                > >(smoothness and acid of 303 if needed, but with different, almost
                Moog
                > >character. Almost like subtle reverb was applied to it). I sold it
                because
                > >it was slow to edit, due to its menu system, and guess what: it
                was
                > >sticking
                > >out too much in the mix (beauty is curse sometimes :-) But this
                Waldorf
                > >experience made me buy A-109, and I KNEW there was that beautifull
                > >character
                > >hidden somewhere (behind VCA :-)
                > >
                > >But your post is eye-opening Ingo. I will look for other
                implementations
                > >where A-109 VCA can contribute to character, and not take away.
                And it's
                > >just unbelievable how little detail can contribute lot to sound,
                > >
                > >Regards,
                > >
                > >Zoran
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > >From: "selfoscillate" <synaptic_music@y...>
                > > >Reply-To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                > > >To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                > > >Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: A-109 Improvement
                > > >Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:47:53 -0000
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >hello zoran,
                > > >
                > > >well, i don't think that the vca is low quality,
                > > >it just has a different response curve. the vca-part
                > > >of the a109 has a clear sound with low distortion
                > > >and low noise, so it can't be named low quality.
                > > >low quality usually means that the vca is noisy.
                > > >the response curve of the a109 vca is partly linear
                > > >and partly exponential, depending on the amount
                > > >of voltage applied to the vca circuit via the cv inputs
                > > >and/or the gain pot. this is a somewhat different behaviour
                > > >than on the other vca's and probably what you don't like,
                > > >especially when you use an envelope or lfo to open the vca,
                > > >instead of using a fixed voltage.
                > > >
                > > >also it seems to be a question of personal taste.
                > > >some like the cem-based vca's, others prefer the ca3080-based
                > > >or even the vactrol-based vca's, which have a completely
                > > >different response curve. my opinion is that each type
                > > >of vca has it's advantages, you just have to find the
                > > >right application for it.
                > > >
                > > >best wishes
                > > >
                > > >ingo
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran Bosnjak"
                <dj_allin@h...>
                > > >wrote:
                > > > > Hello,
                > > > >
                > > > > I read so many posts about A-109 that were saying "this
                module is
                > > >good for
                > > > > starters, you get decent filter, VCA, and panner." Well, this
                is
                > > >what I
                > > > > found out: this filter sounds better when used without VCA
                that is
                > > >the part
                > > > > of the same module. Without VCA on A-109, the filter becomes
                very
                > > >smooth -
                > > > > it is a small difference, but possible to hear. And because
                of that
                > > > > smoothness, suddenly this filter has a strength/beauty in a
                mix
                > > >that was not
                > > > > present before.
                > > > >
                > > > > I was just patching some bass sounds (VCO, A-109 filer, and
                > > >envelope), and
                > > > > comparing them with ARP Axxe that I own as well. What I like
                about
                > > >A-109
                > > > > filter is a sweet tone, mellow Curtis with very tiny hint of
                Moog.
                > > >Still
                > > > > sounding harder than super smooth and round ARP Axxe (mine
                has 4075
                > > >filter,
                > > > > one that got replicated in Modcan line of modules).
                > > > >
                > > > > So, two conclusions: A-109 filter is more than "just decent",
                it's
                > > >actually
                > > > > very good. And by getting the module, you are getting low
                quality
                > > >VCA, that
                > > > > can impact your sound (well, you can always find CV duty for
                VCA on
                > > >your
                > > > > system). I would love to hear if somebody has experience
                similar
                > > >(or
                > > > > completely different, of course) to mine.
                > > > >
                > > > > Regards,
                > > > >
                > > > > Zoran
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
              • Zoran Bosnjak
                Oh man... Why didn t I know this before selling mine ?
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 19, 2005
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                  Oh man... Why didn't I know this before selling mine ?

                  >From: "andreasnoa" <andreas.noa@...>
                  >Reply-To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: A-109 Improvement
                  >Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:07:59 -0000
                  >
                  >
                  >--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran Bosnjak" <dj_allin@h...>
                  >wrote:
                  > > Oops, Waldorf pole is not orange, it is blue, right ?
                  > >
                  > > Zoran
                  > >
                  >
                  >Yes, it's dark blue, same coated paint as used on the Waldorf Pulse.
                  >The full name is "Waldorf miniWORKS 4pole".
                  >I can only agree to earlier comments about how good it sounds.
                  >
                  >Further, I'm trying to add Filter Cutoff and Resonance CV Inputs to
                  >mine, which should be a nice addition to the A100 system I'll be
                  >getting soon. It's based on a CEM 3387 (2x 2pole Lowpass, 4x VCA),
                  >so that should be fairly easy to do.
                  >
                  >Cheers,
                  >
                  >Andreas
                  >
                  >P.S.: I'm new to this group, so a big Hello to you all :D
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > >From: "Zoran Bosnjak" <dj_allin@h...>
                  > > >Reply-To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >Subject: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Re: A-109 Improvement
                  > > >Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 15:07:28 +0000
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Thanks for the excellent response Ingo. Everybody reading this
                  >post, please
                  > > >notice that after all, it is only my perception that by bypassing
                  >VCA
                  > > >entirely in my bass patch, the A-109 filter got its character
                  >improved by
                  > > >getting slighly smoother, almost liquidy quality. Almost like VCA
                  >was
                  > > >holding it back - now its more even (smooth). When I am saying
                  >more even,
                  > > >imagine curve of the sound as being curved (obvious), but no dents
                  >in the
                  > > >line. With VCA, it is almost like curve is dented, uneven, with
                  >slight
                  > > >changes in volume. I did the test by opening the AMP knob on A-109
                  > > >completely. I could even hear slight noise (but negligible, and
                  >remember
                  > > >that's with AMP knob open full, and no envelope applied).
                  > > >What manfacturers do with their chip/filter application is still
                  >mystery to
                  > > >me. This is my third encounter with the same chip - I also have
                  >Microwave
                  > > >I,
                  > > >and I used to own Waldorf pole filter (forgot the name, that small
                  >orange
                  > > >thing). And that Waldorf standalone filter unit sounded
                  >unbelievable
                  > > >(smoothness and acid of 303 if needed, but with different, almost
                  >Moog
                  > > >character. Almost like subtle reverb was applied to it). I sold it
                  >because
                  > > >it was slow to edit, due to its menu system, and guess what: it
                  >was
                  > > >sticking
                  > > >out too much in the mix (beauty is curse sometimes :-) But this
                  >Waldorf
                  > > >experience made me buy A-109, and I KNEW there was that beautifull
                  > > >character
                  > > >hidden somewhere (behind VCA :-)
                  > > >
                  > > >But your post is eye-opening Ingo. I will look for other
                  >implementations
                  > > >where A-109 VCA can contribute to character, and not take away.
                  >And it's
                  > > >just unbelievable how little detail can contribute lot to sound,
                  > > >
                  > > >Regards,
                  > > >
                  > > >Zoran
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >From: "selfoscillate" <synaptic_music@y...>
                  > > > >Reply-To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: A-109 Improvement
                  > > > >Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:47:53 -0000
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >hello zoran,
                  > > > >
                  > > > >well, i don't think that the vca is low quality,
                  > > > >it just has a different response curve. the vca-part
                  > > > >of the a109 has a clear sound with low distortion
                  > > > >and low noise, so it can't be named low quality.
                  > > > >low quality usually means that the vca is noisy.
                  > > > >the response curve of the a109 vca is partly linear
                  > > > >and partly exponential, depending on the amount
                  > > > >of voltage applied to the vca circuit via the cv inputs
                  > > > >and/or the gain pot. this is a somewhat different behaviour
                  > > > >than on the other vca's and probably what you don't like,
                  > > > >especially when you use an envelope or lfo to open the vca,
                  > > > >instead of using a fixed voltage.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >also it seems to be a question of personal taste.
                  > > > >some like the cem-based vca's, others prefer the ca3080-based
                  > > > >or even the vactrol-based vca's, which have a completely
                  > > > >different response curve. my opinion is that each type
                  > > > >of vca has it's advantages, you just have to find the
                  > > > >right application for it.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >best wishes
                  > > > >
                  > > > >ingo
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran Bosnjak"
                  ><dj_allin@h...>
                  > > > >wrote:
                  > > > > > Hello,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I read so many posts about A-109 that were saying "this
                  >module is
                  > > > >good for
                  > > > > > starters, you get decent filter, VCA, and panner." Well, this
                  >is
                  > > > >what I
                  > > > > > found out: this filter sounds better when used without VCA
                  >that is
                  > > > >the part
                  > > > > > of the same module. Without VCA on A-109, the filter becomes
                  >very
                  > > > >smooth -
                  > > > > > it is a small difference, but possible to hear. And because
                  >of that
                  > > > > > smoothness, suddenly this filter has a strength/beauty in a
                  >mix
                  > > > >that was not
                  > > > > > present before.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I was just patching some bass sounds (VCO, A-109 filer, and
                  > > > >envelope), and
                  > > > > > comparing them with ARP Axxe that I own as well. What I like
                  >about
                  > > > >A-109
                  > > > > > filter is a sweet tone, mellow Curtis with very tiny hint of
                  >Moog.
                  > > > >Still
                  > > > > > sounding harder than super smooth and round ARP Axxe (mine
                  >has 4075
                  > > > >filter,
                  > > > > > one that got replicated in Modcan line of modules).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > So, two conclusions: A-109 filter is more than "just decent",
                  >it's
                  > > > >actually
                  > > > > > very good. And by getting the module, you are getting low
                  >quality
                  > > > >VCA, that
                  > > > > > can impact your sound (well, you can always find CV duty for
                  >VCA on
                  > > > >your
                  > > > > > system). I would love to hear if somebody has experience
                  >similar
                  > > > >(or
                  > > > > > completely different, of course) to mine.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Regards,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Zoran
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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