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Re: chaos module

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  • ethanzer0 <ethanzer0@yahoo.com>
    ... I m not sure the Buchla Source of Uncertainty was ever associated with Chaos, however, the Blacet Dark Star Chaos module might be. Ethan
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 8, 2003
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      --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Roel Steverink"
      > Is the principle for the source of uncertainty coming
      > from the chaos theory? But what a minute, was the chaos
      > theory already in existence when Buchla build it's modules?
      >

      I'm not sure the Buchla Source of Uncertainty
      was ever associated with Chaos, however, the
      Blacet Dark Star Chaos module might be.

      Ethan
    • Tim Stinchcombe <timothy@tstinchcombe.fr
      Hi Ethan, Roel, ... I wondered this about the Dark Star Chaos myself, so when Blacet announced they had a load of the hard-to-get chips at its core, I bought
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 8, 2003
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        Hi Ethan, Roel,

        > > Is the principle for the source of uncertainty coming
        > > from the chaos theory? But what a minute, was the chaos
        > > theory already in existence when Buchla build it's modules?
        > >
        >
        > I'm not sure the Buchla Source of Uncertainty
        > was ever associated with Chaos, however, the
        > Blacet Dark Star Chaos module might be.

        I wondered this about the Dark Star Chaos myself, so when Blacet
        announced they had a load of the hard-to-get chips at its core, I
        bought one (just the PCB and chip). Haven't built it yet, but from
        the schematic and the chip datasheet, the answer is no, the DSC is
        not associated with what I would regard as 'chaos', i.e. non-linear
        dynamics, Chua's oscillator and the like. However, whether it might
        *sound* like a chaotic oscillator remains to be seen (I doubt it
        though - I did breadboard a Duffing oscillator a while ago, and
        it 'shreiked' rather than 'hissed' noisly!). Basically the DSC is
        voltage-controlled digital noise (like A117), with built in env gen,
        filter, VCA and oscillator.

        When I get the time, one of the things I intend doing is to build a
        Chua oscillator, stick a voltage-controlled resistor in it, and see
        what comes out (and if it sounds reasonable, then stick a phase
        comparator and VCO into the mix to see if it can be made to track a
        VCO, PLL style, so that one might be able to play tunes with it...)

        Tim
      • davevosh@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/8/2003 7:07:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... tim. i haven`t tried this and, honestly, its probably beyond my simple d.i.y. skills but i
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 8, 2003
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          In a message dated 1/8/2003 7:07:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          timothy@... writes:


          > When I get the time, one of the things I intend doing is to build a
          > Chua oscillator, stick a voltage-controlled resistor in it, and see
          > what comes out (and if it sounds reasonable, then stick a phase
          > comparator and VCO into the mix to see if it can be made to track a
          > VCO, PLL style, so that one might be able to play tunes with it...)
          >
          >



          tim.
          i haven`t tried this and, honestly, its probably beyond my simple d.i.y.
          skills but i do have a comdyna gp-6 analog computer that i`ve been using
          as a control voltage mangler, even being able to patch it for the ueda
          attractor, and its been educatioanl and fun !
          best,
          dave




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tim Stinchcombe <timothy@tstinchcombe.fr
          Hi Roel, ... I have absolutely only a very rough grasp on any of this, but here goes. Some of what chaos theory about is how a small change in one part of a
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 9, 2003
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            Hi Roel,

            > What the hell are a Chua oscillator and a Duffing oscillator???
            > Can you eat it?
            > I never heard of this before.
            > Most intriquing, please explain!

            I have absolutely only a very rough grasp on any of this, but here
            goes. Some of what chaos theory about is how a small change in one
            part of a system can have a large affect on another (a favourite is
            something about a butterfly flapping its wings having an affect half
            way round the world...). It's possible to put together electronic
            circuits that exhibit this kind of behaviour, i.e. a small change
            will suddenly make the circuit jump to a completely different state.
            Chua's circuit is a well known example (named after the guy who first
            made it), Duffing is another, and they are both deceptively very
            simple to look at. They oscillate in strange ways, and changing
            component values by small amounts can completely change this. Chua's
            circuit has many different 'modes' - if I can get the upload to work,
            I'll stick a file in the files area with some plots. In it you'll see
            what is called a 'double scroll', for obvious reasons. Altering the
            pot value can make one half of the scroll disappear; at another it
            goes much larger, called a 'limit cycle' (it sort of saturates). They
            can be made to oscillate at audio frequencies, and the top one of the
            pair looks rather like a square wave through a highly resonant
            filter, and apparently sounds quite interesting. I have a paper where
            they control the oscillator digitally in order to make some decent
            sound (in tune I believe) from it.

            The theory is very mathematical, with lots of heavy differential
            equations in many variables. The 'thing' which make Chua's circuit
            work is what the two op amps do - they emulate a negative resistor (V
            over I through a normal resistor is of course R; V over I for this
            thing gives -R, i.e. has negative gradient!).

            And that pretty much sums up all I know. Basically it looks like
            something fun to play with! Just remembered a good website to look at
            is Dan Slater's page:

            http://www.nearfield.com/~dan/Music/chaos/Chaosrel.htm

            It'll explain it far better than I can, and includes stuff on Buchla
            and references to several good papers.

            Cheers,

            Tim
          • andrew dalio <bunnyman@sailormoon.com>
            I ve come up with a chaos patch using Doepfer modules sort of based on the Wiard Woggle bug diagram. When I figure out how to post it, it ll go up on Modular
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 9, 2003
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              I've come up with a chaos patch using Doepfer modules sort of based on
              the Wiard Woggle bug diagram. When I figure out how to post it, it'll
              go up on Modular Planet. For those of you who don't have one, I highly
              recommend the Woggle bug - an awesome module that provides both random
              voltages and Forbidden Planet-like audio outs. It's too nifty to
              describe, just get one!

              -andrew bunny
            • davevosh@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:09:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... andrew, ditto, w bug is great ! i`ll look forward to seeing your doepfer patch interpretation
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 9, 2003
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                In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:09:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                bunnyman@... writes:


                > For those of you who don't have one, I highly
                > recommend the Woggle bug - an awesome module that provides both random
                > voltages and Forbidden Planet-like audio outs. It's too nifty to
                >



                andrew,
                ditto, w'bug is great !
                i`ll look forward to seeing your doepfer patch interpretation anxiously !
                best,
                dave




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Roel Steverink
                From: Tim Stinchcombe Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 1:05 am Subject: Re: chaos module Hi Tim and Ethan, What the hell are a Chua
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 9, 2003
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                  From: "Tim Stinchcombe <timothy@t...>" <timothy@t...>
                  Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 1:05 am
                  Subject: Re: chaos module

                  Hi Tim and Ethan,

                  What the hell are a Chua oscillator and a Duffing oscillator???
                  Can you eat it?
                  I never heard of this before.
                  Most intriquing, please explain!

                  Roel.

                  Tim wrote:
                  I wondered this about the Dark Star Chaos myself, so when Blacet
                  announced they had a load of the hard-to-get chips at its core, I
                  bought one (just the PCB and chip). Haven't built it yet, but from
                  the schematic and the chip datasheet, the answer is no, the DSC is
                  not associated with what I would regard as 'chaos', i.e. non-linear
                  dynamics, Chua's oscillator and the like. However, whether it might
                  *sound* like a chaotic oscillator remains to be seen (I doubt it
                  though - I did breadboard a Duffing oscillator a while ago, and
                  it 'shreiked' rather than 'hissed' noisly!). Basically the DSC is
                  voltage-controlled digital noise (like A117), with built in env gen,
                  filter, VCA and oscillator.

                  When I get the time, one of the things I intend doing is to build a
                  Chua oscillator, stick a voltage-controlled resistor in it, and see
                  what comes out (and if it sounds reasonable, then stick a phase
                  comparator and VCO into the mix to see if it can be made to track a
                  VCO, PLL style, so that one might be able to play tunes with it...)

                  Tim
                • Roel Steverink
                  From: Tim Stinchcombe Date: Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:00 am Subject: Re: chaos module Hi Tim, I know the chaos theory, I have a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 10, 2003
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                    From: "Tim Stinchcombe <timothy@t...>" <timothy@t...>
                    Date: Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:00 am
                    Subject: Re: chaos module

                    Hi Tim,

                    I know the chaos theory, I have a book on it. It's fascinating
                    subject, but only until recently I didn't know that they
                    translated the theory in a famous/notorious module!
                    I just never heard of those oscillator's you named.

                    I also went to a lecture on this subject and it was
                    very clearly explained by this professor. I know the chaos
                    theory orginates from theorectical physics. He had
                    a simple model with him and demonstrated the how chaos is
                    created. He had only a swing which had two wheels attached to it.
                    First when he moved the swing, it made preditable moves,
                    but beyond a certain point, totally different things happened
                    and amazing too see, you couldn't predict any of this
                    strange movements anymore. This was the edge of chaos.

                    Chaos travels from the center to the edge, where it reaches
                    a point that totally new phenonomen occur. Like your famous
                    sample of the butterfly flapping it's wings in North America
                    can cause a sandstorm in the Sahara.

                    Thanks for that great link. What a fine site with glass clear
                    pictures!!! I have benchmarked in my favourites and when I
                    have time and are up to it(oops those maths, but I have to be
                    cool and don't turn my back on them!).

                    Roel


                    Hi Roel,

                    > What the hell are a Chua oscillator and a Duffing oscillator???
                    > Can you eat it?
                    > I never heard of this before.
                    > Most intriquing, please explain!

                    Tim Wrote:

                    I have absolutely only a very rough grasp on any of this, but here
                    goes. Some of what chaos theory about is how a small change in one
                    part of a system can have a large affect on another (a favourite is
                    something about a butterfly flapping its wings having an affect half
                    way round the world...). It's possible to put together electronic
                    circuits that exhibit this kind of behaviour, i.e. a small change
                    will suddenly make the circuit jump to a completely different state.
                    Chua's circuit is a well known example (named after the guy who first
                    made it), Duffing is another, and they are both deceptively very
                    simple to look at. They oscillate in strange ways, and changing
                    component values by small amounts can completely change this. Chua's
                    circuit has many different 'modes' - if I can get the upload to work,
                    I'll stick a file in the files area with some plots. In it you'll see
                    what is called a 'double scroll', for obvious reasons. Altering the
                    pot value can make one half of the scroll disappear; at another it
                    goes much larger, called a 'limit cycle' (it sort of saturates). They
                    can be made to oscillate at audio frequencies, and the top one of the
                    pair looks rather like a square wave through a highly resonant
                    filter, and apparently sounds quite interesting. I have a paper where
                    they control the oscillator digitally in order to make some decent
                    sound (in tune I believe) from it.

                    The theory is very mathematical, with lots of heavy differential
                    equations in many variables. The 'thing' which make Chua's circuit
                    work is what the two op amps do - they emulate a negative resistor (V
                    over I through a normal resistor is of course R; V over I for this
                    thing gives -R, i.e. has negative gradient!).

                    And that pretty much sums up all I know. Basically it looks like
                    something fun to play with! Just remembered a good website to look at
                    is Dan Slater's page:

                    http://www.nearfield.com/~dan/Music/chaos/Chaosrel.htm

                    It'll explain it far better than I can, and includes stuff on Buchla
                    and references to several good papers.

                    Cheers,

                    Tim
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