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Re: [Doepfer_a100] A-190-2 as clock

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  • James Husted
    The other thing to remember about the A-160 and a lot of clock dividers are that they are not musical dividers but mathematical ones. What I mean by this
    Message 1 of 13 , May 6, 2013
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      The other thing to remember about the A-160 and a lot of clock dividers are that they are not "musical" dividers but "mathematical" ones. What I mean by this is that they don't divide "on the down beat". The A-160's /2 output puts out a clock on the second clock in which is a beat off the downbeat. In a musical structure you want the divisions to happen but you want them on the downbeat. To achieve this you have to invert all the outs of the A-160, Then the outputs will be musically orientated instead of mathematical.

      Clock in - ^^^^^^^^^^^^

      A-160 /2 out _^_^_^_^_^_^

      You want ^_^_^_^_^_^_

      When you reset the A-160 you won't get a /2 out until the second clock in without inverting the output. The 4MS Rotating Clock Divider is one of the type that outputs on the downbeat.

      -James

      James Husted
      Designer, Synthwerks LLC
      www.synthwerks.com
      james@...
      synthwerks@...


      On May 3, 2013, at 11:54 AM, christian ienni <ienni23@...> wrote:

      > just to throw in my useless half-a-cent here... :-)
      >
      > i've been working on a new major piece/project/whatever for some months now, you know that slow process of getting everything chugging away and gradually sculpting it into some kind of presentable shape (as opposed to the "instant off-the-cuff" experiments i've been posting on my site recently). anyway, the major analog sequencing part of it involves master MIDI clock coming from a Manikin Schrittmacher (it *really* likes to be the master; doesn't do so well as slave) sending clock to the MAQ (controlling the old MKS80) and my big A100 system (all networked through a MOTU MIDI Express XT interface). the A100 has a complex sequencer patch set up (2x155, 154, and multiple 150s to make it into a single 32-step sequence; also the second row of knobs on each 155 have their values determined by the individual outs from the 149-2 sub-module of the 149-1 random voltages, so every cycle the sequence is slightly different and semi-randomly variable).
      >
      >
      > anyway, i was having a hell of a time getting the A100 to lock in with everything else - it was clocking with the Schrittmacher fine, but always seemed a few ms perfectly "off" from it and the other midi sequencers, and i just couldn't get it as tight as i wanted it (and of course my buddy was "i don't hear the error. it sounds fine to me!"). but then i tried something: instead of just relying on the 160 clock dividers, i changed the setting of the internal clock divider in the 190-1 to a slower pulse and turned off every other step on the 155s and voila! suddenly everything gelled wonderfully and it really grooves now! it's not that Kraftwerk-style super-tight robotic perfection, but it has that slightly loose but still synced groove you find in late 70s-era TD & KS. everything is synced perfectly, but it has something of what James just mentioned about a "live band" feel. not necessarily laboratory-spec perfection, but it definitely "feels" right, and
      > sounds great! :-)
      >
      >
      > so just to second what Bakis said, i find the gates from the 190-1 work fine, depending on the setup and the desired result. you just have to do some tweaking and outside-the-box thinking to get the result you want.
      >
      > -chris
      > http://ienni.net
      >
      > (ps- and i am really looking forward to the new 190-8 dedicated MIDI/USB-sync module!)
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Bakis Sirros <synth_freak_2000@...>
      > To: "Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, May 3, 2013 10:02 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] A-190-2 as clock
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > i agree with James, and i repeat that the timing i get from the gates from my midi-cv interface is good enough for me. never had problems with it. OF COURSE, it depends on the midi chain. plus, i use ableton live and i always check and correct any timing i do not like, after the audio has been recorded. and i do not have the midi-cv interface right after the midi out of my computer midi interface... actually, i have it (MCV24) after some midi thru-ins :D
      >
      >
      > Bakis
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Jim Credland
      ... It s kind of true, but as soon as you start trying to drop down nice repetitive dance grooves it becomes a major issue. It s fine to be out of time
      Message 2 of 13 , May 6, 2013
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        On 3 May 2013, at 17:48, James Husted <james.husted@...> wrote:

        > Whenever I hear talk about "super tight clocking" and "MIDI timing errors" I am always amazed. I can't but think of live music and the fact that every live band you have EVER seen has had more timing error between players than probably any you have ever heard in MIDI. I know there is a want for timing perfection (to me a robotic perfection) but I often see a obsession to a perfection that it seems more often than not only the obsessor ever hears. Music doesn't need to be that perfect to me.
        >
        >
        It's kind of true, but as soon as you start trying to drop down nice repetitive dance grooves it becomes a major issue. It's fine to be out of time slightly, but the variation in timing is a nightmare. Ideally, with everything below 300Hz, you want things enormously aligned, otherwise a kick and a bass playing at the same time sound different from bar to bar�which can be ugly!

        Back before sample accurate timing we used to play a bunch of synths from Protools and then find the bar that worked best, record it and repeat it!

        Depends on the style of music though. Funky house is less fussy than techno, and if you're recording the blues it ain't a bit issue at all :)




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • christian ienni
        i forgot about the 4ms! thanks for reminding me!! (just what i need... MORE modules! ;-) ________________________________ From: James Husted
        Message 3 of 13 , May 6, 2013
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          i forgot about the 4ms! thanks for reminding me!!
          (just what i need... MORE modules! ;-)



          ________________________________
          From: James Husted <james.husted@...>
          To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 9:21 AM
          Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] A-190-2 as clock



           
          The other thing to remember about the A-160 and a lot of clock dividers are that they are not "musical" dividers but "mathematical" ones. What I mean by this is that they don't divide "on the down beat". The A-160's /2 output puts out a clock on the second clock in which is a beat off the downbeat. In a musical structure you want the divisions to happen but you want them on the downbeat. To achieve this you have to invert all the outs of the A-160, Then the outputs will be musically orientated instead of mathematical.

          Clock in - ^^^^^^^^^^^^

          A-160 /2 out _^_^_^_^_^_^

          You want ^_^_^_^_^_^_

          When you reset the A-160 you won't get a /2 out until the second clock in without inverting the output. The 4MS Rotating Clock Divider is one of the type that outputs on the downbeat.

          -James

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • christian ienni
          exactly. if you want robot-precision, you have to go through the extra effort to achieve it. my stuff tends to range from old style berlin school to abstract
          Message 4 of 13 , May 6, 2013
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            exactly. if you want robot-precision, you have to go through the extra effort to achieve it.
            my stuff tends to range from old style berlin school to abstract sound/noise collage, so it's not as much of an issue (or maybe i'm just lazy ;-)



            ________________________________
            From: Jim Credland <jim@...>
            To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 10:50 AM
            Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] A-190-2 as clock



            On 3 May 2013, at 17:48, James Husted <james.husted@...> wrote:


            Depends on the style of music though.  Funky house is less fussy than techno, and if you're recording the blues it ain't a bit issue at all :)

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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