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Re: bassiest doepfer low pass?

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  • vliesgaard
    ... I don t realy know, but I ll try to give a defenition: The amount of musical distortion the filter produces. 2 extreme examples: Minimoog filter a bit
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 7, 2007
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      --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander
      <Florian.Anwander@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi vliesgaard
      >
      > > I think what is being meant is filter growl.
      > What is "filter growl" (technically spoken)?
      >
      > Florian
      >
      I don't realy know, but I'll try to give a defenition:

      The amount of musical distortion the filter produces.

      2 extreme examples: Minimoog filter a bit overdriven has a nice warm
      creamy character when you turn the cutoff knob. This makes the sound
      warm and bassy
      A cheap digital filter, witch produces hardly any distortion. And
      sounds therefore a bit less warm than a minimoog filter.
    • Florian Anwander
      Hi vliesgaard ... Ok, this will not be achieved by the filter itself, but by an level change before the filter. You also might decrease the input resistor for
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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        Hi vliesgaard

        >>What is "filter growl" (technically spoken)?
        > The amount of musical distortion the filter produces.
        >
        > 2 extreme examples: Minimoog filter a bit overdriven has a nice warm
        > creamy character when you turn the cutoff knob. This makes the sound
        > warm and bassy
        > A cheap digital filter, witch produces hardly any distortion. And
        > sounds therefore a bit less warm than a minimoog filter.
        Ok, this will not be achieved by the filter itself, but by an level
        change before the filter. You also might decrease the input resistor for
        the audfiosignal (which would be the same).

        More interesting is the answer of Ingo (ilanode).

        Florian
      • Florian Anwander
        Hi Ingo ... Ok, now we come closer: An increased resonance means, the output voltage of audio signals at the cutoff frequency is increased in comparison to the
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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          Hi Ingo

          > Does this count? "[A] second audio feedback path to boost bass
          > response at higher Q levels. This makes the filter "growl and rumble"
          > even more!" Paul S. on the MOTM-440 VCF.
          >
          > The MOTM-440 is inspired by the SSM2040 chip and I *guess* the A105
          > (which is based on the SSM2044) is similiar in design. Anyhow, I was
          > never able to give the MOTM-440 a listen but the A105 is impressing.

          Ok, now we come closer: An increased resonance means, the output voltage
          of audio signals at the cutoff frequency is increased in comparison to
          the signals at lower frequncies than the cutoff frequency (speaking only
          for lowpass filters now). Now there the question is how the filter
          behaves regarding its complete outputsignal.

          Several types are possible:
          1.) The maximum output voltage of the signal stays the same, which means
          signals below the cutoff frequency (and below the resonance peak) will
          have a lower signal level - in other words: There will be less bass with
          higher resonance.
          2.) The output voltage of signals below the cutoff frequency will stay
          the same, which means the resonance "peak" will have a higher voltage.
          With other words: higher resonance won't touch the bass. BUT: This will
          usually cause distortion in the following audio path, because the
          resonance peak will. This is generally unwanted (and no filter is really
          designed like that). It could be achieved by simply using an
          amplification after the resonating filter.
          3.) the overall power[*] of the output signal stays the same. This means
          also that the low frequencies will have a reduced output level (as in
          1), but the amount of reduction depends of the resonance frequency: a
          high frequency in resonance will have less electrical power and will
          reduce the overall power less than a low frequency in resonance (I hope
          this description is not too confusing).

          Dieter once explained to me, how one can determine in the schematic
          which type of resonance is used, but I don't remember it. To my
          knowledge the A-122 and A-123 are of type 1, the A-105 is type 3, the
          A-120 and other non-single-chip-filters are somewhere inbetween type 1
          and 3. I don't know about the A-121 (but for 12dB filters this issue is
          less relevant as for 24dB filters).

          So I think, the A-105 is the filter that Carlos asked for.

          For an A-122/123 one could use a CV to control the resonance; the same
          CV should control also the signal level in a following VCA (with less
          control amount). This might compensate the level loss at higher
          resonance settings.

          Florian

          [*]we remember physics lessons when we were 14 years old ;-): electrical
          power is product of voltage and current
        • Florian Anwander
          Hi Ingo ... Nope, 2044 and 2040 are quite different chip designs. Florian
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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            Hi Ingo

            > The MOTM-440 is inspired by the SSM2040 chip and I *guess* the A105
            > (which is based on the SSM2044) is similiar in design. Anyhow, I was
            > never able to give the MOTM-440 a listen but the A105 is impressing.
            Nope, 2044 and 2040 are quite different chip designs.

            Florian
          • jilt@robotfunk.com
            Could it be the original poster is just looking for a very steep filter, say 24 dB/oct or higher? The steeper the slope, the more resonance around the cutoff
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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              Could it be the original poster is just looking for a very steep
              filter, say 24
              dB/oct or higher? The steeper the slope, the more resonance around the cutoff
              frequency.

              Jilt van Moorst
              www.robotfunk.com
            • Anthony Rolando
              ... Depending on the design, changing the audio signal input resistor could also affect input impedance. This will greatly affect the tone of the signal before
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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                >You also might decrease the input resistor for
                > the audfiosignal (which would be the same).

                Depending on the design, changing the audio signal input resistor could also affect input impedance. This will greatly affect the tone of the signal before entering the filter, and probably not in a way that most people would appreciate.


                Tony

                > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
                > From: Florian.Anwander@...
                > Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:36:41 +0200
                > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: bassiest doepfer low pass?
                >
                > Hi vliesgaard
                >
                > >>What is "filter growl" (technically spoken)?
                > > The amount of musical distortion the filter produces.
                > >
                > > 2 extreme examples: Minimoog filter a bit overdriven has a nice warm
                > > creamy character when you turn the cutoff knob. This makes the sound
                > > warm and bassy
                > > A cheap digital filter, witch produces hardly any distortion. And
                > > sounds therefore a bit less warm than a minimoog filter.
                > Ok, this will not be achieved by the filter itself, but by an level
                > change before the filter. You also might decrease the input resistor for
                > the audfiosignal (which would be the same).
                >
                > More interesting is the answer of Ingo (ilanode).
                >
                > Florian
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                _________________________________________________________________
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              • Florian Anwander
                Hi Anthony ... Thats true in principle, but not for combinations of doepfer modules. Florian
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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                  Hi Anthony

                  > Depending on the design, changing the audio signal input resistor could also affect input impedance. This will greatly affect the tone of the signal before entering the filter, and probably not in a way that most people would appreciate.
                  Thats true in principle, but not for combinations of doepfer modules.

                  Florian
                • Carlos
                  I guess I didnt word my message to well. yes which filter has the most growl but also sounds good and bassy when set to self oscillate ... sine
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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                    I guess I didnt word my message to well. yes which filter has the most
                    'growl' but also sounds good and bassy when set to self oscillate

                    --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "vliesgaard" <vliesgaard@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander
                    > <Florian.Anwander@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Carlos
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Which of the low pass filters produces the deeper sounding most
                    > > > terrifying bass sounds?
                    > > >
                    > > > thinking about both when sequencing in self oscillation, but in
                    > > > general as well...
                    > > Its not the filter, which gives the bass, its the oscillator. Use
                    sine
                    > > and saw at the same time. The sine will nail your stomach to the wall.
                    > >
                    > > Florian
                    > >
                    > I think what is being meant is filter growl.
                    >
                  • vliesgaard
                    The A-108 is most like the minimoog. I think.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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                      The A-108 is most like the minimoog.
                      I think.
                    • Florian Anwander
                      Hi Carlos ... OK - if I understand growl right (that what a Fender Jazzbass can give), then still it is NOT the filter - its the oscillator waveform. Quite
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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                        Hi Carlos

                        > I guess I didnt word my message to well. yes which filter has the most
                        > 'growl' but also sounds good and bassy when set to self oscillate
                        OK - if I understand growl right (that what a Fender Jazzbass can give),
                        then still it is NOT the filter - its the oscillator waveform.

                        Quite nice examples are the darker synth basses of Steve Winwood, or
                        bass of Bernard Edwards in "Your love so good to me" (yes, the bass
                        player of Chic did one of the greatest synth bass licks I know - and
                        sorry for these boring old fart examples).



                        Try this:
                        1.) Three VCOs, one with asymetric, not modulated pulsewave is very
                        dominating, the others are saw and triangle but each of them gives maybe
                        only 10% of the signal.
                        2.) lot of small manual given vibratos from the modulation wheel.
                        3.) Lowpassfilter (no matter which one) with only a little(!) envelope
                        amount, little resonance; filter envelope is more a longer and piano
                        like envelope.
                        4.) VCA envelope may be organ or long piano style but without release.
                        5.) Put some fat and nasty compressor on it (Edwards used a Urei 1176).

                        Now switch the compressors bypass on and off, and you will see, that
                        especially the compressor raises the "growl" which basically was
                        produced by the asymmetric pulse beating a littlebit with of the other
                        low leveled VCOs.

                        Florian
                      • Carlos
                        sounds good will try it out, though I don t own a compressor. but I still need to choose a low pass filter for my doepfer portable system :) someone mentioned
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 8, 2007
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                          sounds good will try it out, though I don't own a compressor.

                          but I still need to choose a low pass filter for my doepfer portable
                          system :)

                          someone mentioned the a-105 is similar to the motm 440 I have that
                          motm filter on my studio system (mix of .com, motm, and modcan) and is
                          my favorite filter I own, so that might be the ticket, I am also
                          intrigued by the a-102 though as it seems like you can get some nicely
                          extreme sounds out of it and I don't own any diode based filters.

                          I might end up getting both, but like I said, I am building a doepfer
                          portable system, so trying to minimize on extra filters/etc.

                          Carlos

                          --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander
                          <Florian.Anwander@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Carlos
                          >
                          > > I guess I didnt word my message to well. yes which filter has the most
                          > > 'growl' but also sounds good and bassy when set to self oscillate
                          > OK - if I understand growl right (that what a Fender Jazzbass can
                          give),
                          > then still it is NOT the filter - its the oscillator waveform.
                          >
                          > Quite nice examples are the darker synth basses of Steve Winwood, or
                          > bass of Bernard Edwards in "Your love so good to me" (yes, the bass
                          > player of Chic did one of the greatest synth bass licks I know - and
                          > sorry for these boring old fart examples).
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Try this:
                          > 1.) Three VCOs, one with asymetric, not modulated pulsewave is very
                          > dominating, the others are saw and triangle but each of them gives
                          maybe
                          > only 10% of the signal.
                          > 2.) lot of small manual given vibratos from the modulation wheel.
                          > 3.) Lowpassfilter (no matter which one) with only a little(!) envelope
                          > amount, little resonance; filter envelope is more a longer and piano
                          > like envelope.
                          > 4.) VCA envelope may be organ or long piano style but without release.
                          > 5.) Put some fat and nasty compressor on it (Edwards used a Urei 1176).
                          >
                          > Now switch the compressors bypass on and off, and you will see, that
                          > especially the compressor raises the "growl" which basically was
                          > produced by the asymmetric pulse beating a littlebit with of the other
                          > low leveled VCOs.
                          >
                          > Florian
                          >
                        • Ken
                          I have the A-105... I was looking for meaty bass heavy sounds for Drum N Bass and Dubstep.. big growly bassy sounds. I like the A-105 a lot for this. It has a
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 9, 2007
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                            I have the A-105... I was looking for meaty bass heavy sounds for Drum
                            N'Bass and Dubstep.. big growly bassy sounds. I like the A-105 a lot
                            for this. It has a smooth character at lower settings but if you raise
                            the input gain past about 9 O'Clock it starts to get a little gritty.
                            I usually use either 3 saws or 2 Squares... and then just wobble it :)
                          • vliesgaard
                            ... give), ... maybe ... Great patch example. I tried it with a wasp filter, a morfing filter and a system 100 filter. The difference between the filters is
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 9, 2007
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                              --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander
                              <Florian.Anwander@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Carlos
                              >
                              > > I guess I didnt word my message to well. yes which filter has the most
                              > > 'growl' but also sounds good and bassy when set to self oscillate
                              > OK - if I understand growl right (that what a Fender Jazzbass can
                              give),
                              > then still it is NOT the filter - its the oscillator waveform.
                              >
                              > Quite nice examples are the darker synth basses of Steve Winwood, or
                              > bass of Bernard Edwards in "Your love so good to me" (yes, the bass
                              > player of Chic did one of the greatest synth bass licks I know - and
                              > sorry for these boring old fart examples).
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Try this:
                              > 1.) Three VCOs, one with asymetric, not modulated pulsewave is very
                              > dominating, the others are saw and triangle but each of them gives
                              maybe
                              > only 10% of the signal.
                              > 2.) lot of small manual given vibratos from the modulation wheel.
                              > 3.) Lowpassfilter (no matter which one) with only a little(!) envelope
                              > amount, little resonance; filter envelope is more a longer and piano
                              > like envelope.
                              > 4.) VCA envelope may be organ or long piano style but without release.
                              > 5.) Put some fat and nasty compressor on it (Edwards used a Urei 1176).
                              >
                              > Now switch the compressors bypass on and off, and you will see, that
                              > especially the compressor raises the "growl" which basically was
                              > produced by the asymmetric pulse beating a littlebit with of the other
                              > low leveled VCOs.
                              >
                              > Florian
                              >
                              Great patch example.
                              I tried it with a wasp filter, a morfing filter and a system 100
                              filter. The difference between the filters is quite noticable. The
                              wasp sounds airy, the sys 100 blows the glass out of the window, the
                              morfing filter is in between.

                              Filters sound different, some are more creamy than others.
                              I think, the topic starter just wants to know what filter has the
                              nicest distortion character.
                            • Florian Anwander
                              Hi Carlos ... Then its definitely to get one ;-) I always recommend the Alesis smashup from the ModFX Series. They go for a few bucks (~ $30) on ebay and they
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 9, 2007
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                                Hi Carlos

                                > sounds good will try it out, though I don't own a compressor.
                                Then its definitely to get one ;-)

                                I always recommend the Alesis smashup from the ModFX Series. They go for
                                a few bucks (~ $30) on ebay and they sound incredible good for this
                                price. The next quality step would be at the $800 range.



                                > but I still need to choose a low pass filter for my doepfer portable
                                > system :)
                                Go for the A-105.

                                Florian
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