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Re: [Distillers] Cut question

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  • Rob Marshall
    The thumper is really good for extracting flavours. You can make gin, for example by putting juniper berries in the thumper. It stands to reason tht if you add
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 1, 2003
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      The thumper is really good for extracting flavours. You can make gin, for example by putting juniper berries in the thumper. It stands to reason tht if you add freshly crushed apples or, instead just fresh apple juice, you should be able to extract the apple flavour. I've heard that you don't want ot have any seeds in the mix cause they make it bitter.

       

       "Jacques <Jacs_man@...>" <Jacs_man@...> wrote:

      My question deals with when to shut down the still.
      I ran some apple wine thru my copper pot and thumper system after
      freezing it and straining the resulting higher (condensed) alc.
      content thru the ice. I stopped the still when I wasn't able to burn
      a flame blue in a teaspoon anymore.
      After one run thru, the result of the shine was very strong, and
      quite palatable, to say the least.
      I wonder, though, if I had let it run a bit longer, would I have
      picked up more of the apple flavor?
      I've tried to add that flavor back in by mixing it with some apple
      wine and then some plain apple juice, but it doesen't taste quite as
      good as I would have expected.
      I also put some uncut still stregth in a bottle with a bit of honey,
      vanilla and oak chips. This has sat for about a month, now, and
      really tastes good, but not a flavor of apple.
      Any suggestions or direction would be appreciated. I have anothe 15
      gallons of wine to process and would like to make an improvement.
      Thanx,
      Mark



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    • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
      ... There is still a fair amount of good alcohol present there. Sure - its only cost you a dollars worth of sugar, but I just dont see the point on throwing
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 2, 2003
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        >I have never bothered in collecting tails as all the advice I have had suggests it is hardly worth it and the you should not put "contaminated collect" into a clean wash??.

        There is still a fair amount of good alcohol present there. Sure - its only cost you a dollars worth of sugar, but I just dont see the point on throwing it away, when it is so easy to collect.

        If you add the tails to your next run, they wont contaiminate it. If you do want to be overly cautious, keep the tails say from 4-5 runs, and just run them by themselves - see what you collect - it may surprise you, but it will be just as clean as your regular run.

        Tony
      • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
        ... 50% alcohol by volume is roughly the flame point. Lower % can be ignited (eg brandy at 35% for plum puddings) but that usually requires the spirit to be
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 2, 2003
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          > Can you explain further...50% of what?

          50% alcohol by volume is roughly the "flame" point. Lower % can be ignited (eg brandy at 35% for plum puddings) but that usually requires the spirit to be heated up a bit.

          Tony
        • K & J
          Mike Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 4, 2003
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            >
            Mike
            Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and heads from here on in.
            I am cautious by nature but welcome sound informed advice.
            I have been having some corresepondence with Tony and he has viewed some sketches I have done to modify my still and have now made those changes which should improve the abv % will post photo's/sketches etc after I have given it a run in the near future
            Thank once again.
             
            Cheers Ken Mc
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: Sunday, March 02, 2003 13:14:13
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
             
            K & J
            Subject: RE: [Distillers] Cut question

            Tony said:
            Its also worth collecting the tails anyhow, for redistilling at a later stage. Sure - they may only be from 50-20% alchol, but thats still good alcohol that can be recovered.

            I have never bothered in collecting tails as all the advice I have had suggests it is hardly worth it and the you should not put "contaminated collect" into a clean wash??.
            Poor advice.  What on earth can be wrong in putting "contaminated collect" into the next batch if it contains a whole heap of good ethanol?  The first batch you put in contained those "contaminants", and you successfully extracted ethanol from that batch as a distillation still is a separating device.  Nothing will have changed if you add those "contaminants" to the next batch together with all that unseparated ethanol ... ethanol which you will then have a second chance of getting your hands on.

            The way I distill is to discard 50ml of head and collect the body ( I know with my still I can get around 4.5 litre of good stuff 80%to 85%)then I will us a vase that holds 250ml which I float my hydrometer in  and will take the remainder off in 250ml lots until I reach 60% then stop.I then tip the remaining wash.
            It's your choice ... but what a waste!

            I do not want "flavours" in my alcohol as I as Like to make gin etc also like to create my own flavours and will age in Oak for making whiskey /bourbon etc.which works fine for me.
            If you do not want "flavours" in your alcohol, then you should set aside more than 50ml of heads and chuck them into the next batch together with those tails.  The heads also contain a high percentage of ethanol ... higher than the tails.  You should also aim for a higher abv than 80-85% as this is a measure of how efficient your separation has been.  I recommend you examine your equipment and procedures critically.

            If you are to continue and collect tails how far do you go? say % wise or do you have temperature bench mark as well say 90c?or if you can control the head temperature until it stops?
            As far as you like.  If you end up just collecting water, this will make no difference to any subsequent separation in another batch ... it will simply assure you that you have not thrown away any good ethanol.  Please do not run away with the idea that ethanol not collected on the middle run of a batch is lost forever.  It is not.  Nor should you believe that "contaminated" ethanol in heads or tails is forever tainted.  It is not.  I respectfully submit that you have been poorly advised by those that believe that it is, as there is absolutely no foundation to that belief.  In contrast, Tony's advice is sound and based both on practical experience and his expert knowledge of chemistry and physics.
             
            Mike N


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          • Mike Nixon
            K & J wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question Mike Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to answer in such detail and
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 4, 2003
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              K & J wrote:
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

              Mike
              Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to
              answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and
              heads from here on in.
              I am cautious by nature but welcome sound informed advice.
              I have been having some corresepondence with Tony and he has viewed some
              sketches I have done to modify my still and have now made those changes
              which should improve the abv % will post photo's/sketches etc after I have
              given it a run in the near future
              Thank once again.

              Cheers Ken Mc
              =======================
              My pleasure Ken. I look forward to seeing what modifications you are making
              to your still.
              Mike N
            • K & J
              Mike, I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                >
                Mike,
                I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.
                 
                cheers Ken Mc
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:50:19
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                 
                K & J wrote:
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                Mike
                Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to
                answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and
                heads from here on in.
                I am cautious by nature but welcome sound informed advice.
                I have been having some corresepondence with Tony and he has viewed some
                sketches I have done to modify my still and have now made those changes
                which should improve the abv % will post photo's/sketches etc after I have
                given it a run in the near future
                Thank once again.

                Cheers Ken Mc
                =======================
                My pleasure Ken. I look forward to seeing what modifications you are making
                to your still.
                Mike N



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              • Mike Nixon
                K & J wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question Mike, I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain what the benefits are and
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                  K & J wrote:
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                  Mike,
                  I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain
                  what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.

                  cheers Ken Mc
                  ================================
                  Ken,

                  Three advantages:
                  a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is vaporized,
                  without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                  reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with care,
                  saving a lot of time overall
                  b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is clear of all
                  solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                  c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of volatiles,
                  enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run as you
                  start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that plots the
                  concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration in the
                  liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar leaning
                  at 45 degrees)

                  In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football game if
                  you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the mud, and
                  then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                  instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it all in a
                  bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle the
                  difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first concentrate on
                  separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the only
                  problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still where
                  they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                  Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and efficient
                  procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried to do the
                  whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.

                  Mike N
                • K & J
                  Mike, Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions 1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required just a pot still type run, just fire
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                    >
                    Mike,
                     
                    Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions
                    1.   Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required just a pot still type run, just fire it up with only the final condenser on and wait until it stops?
                    2. When you do your final run do you make up the volume with water to say the 25 litres of the original wash or say 50/50 of the strip?
                     
                    cheers
                    Ken Mc
                     
                    -------Original Message-------
                     
                    Date: Thursday, March 06, 2003 09:03:09
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                     
                    K & J wrote:
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                    Mike,
                    I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain
                    what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.

                    cheers Ken Mc
                    ================================
                    Ken,

                    Three advantages:
                    a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is vaporized,
                    without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                    reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with care,
                    saving a lot of time overall
                    b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is clear of all
                    solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                    c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of volatiles,
                    enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run as you
                    start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that plots the
                    concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration in the
                    liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar leaning
                    at 45 degrees)

                    In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football game if
                    you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the mud, and
                    then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                    instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it all in a
                    bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle the
                    difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first concentrate on
                    separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the only
                    problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still where
                    they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                    Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and efficient
                    procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried to do the
                    whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.

                    Mike N



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                  • Mike Nixon
                    K & J wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question Mike, Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions 1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                      K & J wrote:
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                      Mike,

                      Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions
                      1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required just a pot
                      still type run, just fire it up with only the final condenser on and wait
                      until it stops?
                      2. When you do your final run do you make up the volume with water to say
                      the 25 litres of the original wash or say 50/50 of the strip?
                      ===============================
                      1. Yes. Judge when to stop when the temperature of the vapor is knocking at
                      around 96C
                      2. You can add water if you like, but it is far better to wait until you
                      have amassed enough strippate to do a full run. If you dilute, then you
                      lose the advantage of starting out in the middle of that cigar diagram and
                      you reduce efficiency.

                      Mike N
                    • abbababbaccc
                      Not Mike here, but offering a practical tip. Johan s amazing still http://www.amazingstill.com/ (doesn t work right now) offers you a bit of freedom if you
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                        Not Mike here, but offering a practical tip. Johan's amazing
                        still http://www.amazingstill.com/ (doesn't work right now) offers
                        you a bit of freedom if you don't want to stand by the still during
                        the stripping run. I use it to cut the original amount to half, then
                        run it through LM or VM still. Very good idea, especially if you are
                        making whiskey. Lets me process one fermentation bucket in less than
                        two weeks with one 3-4 hours final run + 20 minutes to set up/empty
                        the amazing still in total.

                        Greetz, Riku

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "K & J" <macandjo@p...> wrote:
                        > Mike,
                        >
                        > Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions
                        > 1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required
                        just a pot
                        > still type run, just fire it up with only the final condenser on
                        and wait
                        > until it stops?
                        > 2. When you do your final run do you make up the volume with water
                        to say
                        > the 25 litres of the original wash or say 50/50 of the strip?
                        >
                        > cheers
                        > Ken Mc
                        >
                        > -------Original Message-------
                        >
                        > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, March 06, 2003 09:03:09
                        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                        >
                        > K & J wrote:
                        > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                        >
                        > Mike,
                        > I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please
                        explain
                        > what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is
                        worth while.
                        >
                        > cheers Ken Mc
                        > ================================
                        > Ken,
                        >
                        > Three advantages:
                        > a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is
                        vaporized,
                        > without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                        > reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with
                        care,
                        > saving a lot of time overall
                        > b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is
                        clear of all
                        > solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                        > c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of
                        volatiles,
                        > enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run
                        as you
                        > start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that
                        plots the
                        > concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration
                        in the
                        > liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar
                        leaning
                        > at 45 degrees)
                        >
                        > In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football
                        game if
                        > you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the
                        mud, and
                        > then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                        > instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it
                        all in a
                        > bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle the
                        > difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first
                        concentrate on
                        > separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the
                        only
                        > problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still
                        where
                        > they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                        > Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and
                        efficient
                        > procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried
                        to do the
                        > whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.
                        >
                        > Mike N
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        ~-->
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                        > Sign up today and get free set-up, domain name, and more (up to a
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                        >
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                        >
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                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > .
                      • Harley Daschund
                        Mike: What,in your opinion,would be the ideal ABV% of the wash (after being stripped) when starting the second/final distill run? Thanks. ...
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 6, 2003
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                          Mike:
                          What,in your opinion,would be the 'ideal' ABV% of the wash (after being
                          stripped) when starting the second/final distill run?
                          Thanks.






                          >From: "Mike Nixon" <mike@...>
                          >Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                          >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:09:46 +1300
                          >
                          >>===============================
                          >1. Yes. Judge when to stop when the temperature of the vapor is knocking
                          >at
                          >around 96C
                          >2. You can add water if you like, but it is far better to wait until you
                          >have amassed enough strippate to do a full run. If you dilute, then you
                          >lose the advantage of starting out in the middle of that cigar diagram and
                          >you reduce efficiency.
                          >
                          >Mike N
                          >
                          >


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                        • peter_vcb
                          some more advantages. 1. you can save up many batches and dedicate a whole day to run the whole lot properly in a reflux still. if you collect 4x25 litre
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 12, 2003
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                            some more advantages.
                            1. you can save up many batches and dedicate a whole day to run the
                            whole lot properly in a reflux still.
                            if you collect 4x25 litre batches you will only have to collect a bit
                            more heads and tails than if you ran just a single 25litre wash. but
                            you collect much more of the middle "drinkable" cut. also if you save
                            up the batches you probably wont need to dilute it back down to
                            prevent elment burn out.
                            2. you dont need much care and attention when doing stripping runs. i
                            leave the still running and check it every 15mins or so. i collect
                            everything.
                            3. if you dont have time for a reflux run you can strip a wash. this
                            is useful if you dont want an uncleared wash hanging about for a
                            month or so waiting to be contaminated.
                            4. you dont have to worry about foaming or nasty smells getting into
                            your prized reflux column. since the stripped wash is relatively pure
                            you wont have to clean the column as often/carefully. i leave my
                            stripped wash sitting on carbon.
                            5. for me, electricity is cheaper than finings

                            Peter

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                            > K & J wrote:
                            > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                            >
                            > Mike,
                            > I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please
                            explain
                            > what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is
                            worth while.
                            >
                            > cheers Ken Mc
                            > ================================
                            > Ken,
                            >
                            > Three advantages:
                            > a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is
                            vaporized,
                            > without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                            > reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with
                            care,
                            > saving a lot of time overall
                            > b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is
                            clear of all
                            > solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                            > c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of
                            volatiles,
                            > enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run
                            as you
                            > start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that
                            plots the
                            > concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration
                            in the
                            > liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar
                            leaning
                            > at 45 degrees)
                            >
                            > In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football
                            game if
                            > you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the
                            mud, and
                            > then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                            > instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it
                            all in a
                            > bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle
                            the
                            > difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first
                            concentrate on
                            > separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the
                            only
                            > problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still
                            where
                            > they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                            > Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and
                            efficient
                            > procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried
                            to do the
                            > whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.
                            >
                            > Mike N
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