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RE: [Distillers] Cut question

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  • BOKAKOB
    nice cript + easy to read K & J wrote:FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000;Tony Its also worth collecting the tails anyhow, for
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 1, 2003
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      nice cript + easy to read

       K & J <macandjo@...> wrote:

      Tony
       
      Its also worth collecting the tails anyhow, for redistilling at a later stage. Sure - they may only be from 50-20% alchol, but thats still good alcohol that can be recovered.
       
      I have never bothered in collecting tails as all the advice I have had suggests it is hardly worth it and the you should not put "contaminated collect" into a clean wash??.
       
      The way I distill is to discard 50ml of head and collect the body ( I know with my still I can get around 4.5 litre of good stuff 80%to 85%)then I will us a vase that holds 250ml which I float my hydrometer in  and will take the remainder off in 250ml lots until I reach 60% then stop.I then tip the remaining wash.
       
      I do not want "flavours" in my alcohol as I as Like to make gin etc also like to create my own flavours and will age in Oak for making whiskey /bourbon etc.which works fine for me.
       
      If you are to continue and collect tails how far do you go? say % wise or do you have temperature bench mark as well say 90c?or if you can control the head temperature until it stops?
       
      I am also interested in anyone posting recipes for liqueurs,Rum, whiskey etc basically any good recipes using neutrel spirit.I mainly prefer to use flavourings available at the brew shop and like to tweek them,but in saying that a good home recipe I would be really keen to see.
       
       
      Cheers
       Ken Mc
       
      -------Original Message-------
       
      Date: Sunday, March 02, 2003 10:47:14
      Subject: RE: [Distillers] Cut question
       
      Jacques,

      "When it stops burning" will give you a cut around the 50% mark. Sometimes its usefull to still collect past this point, but into a second container (and a third, and fourth ...). That way you can judge what the flavours are like in those tails, and if they are worth adding or not. Its easy to collect them, and doesnt take too much extra time, but gives you the option of having them. Easy to throw them out if you have to, but avoids regretting that you didnt make the cut too early.

      Its also worth collecting the tails anyhow, for redistilling at a later stage. Sure - they may only be from 50-20% alchol, but thats still good alcohol that can be recovered.

      For apple flavours, I've found that they are often in the heads, rather than the tails. Did you discard much of the initial distillate ?

      Tony

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      I can be wrong I must say.
      Cheers, Alex...



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    • Rob Marshall
      The thumper is really good for extracting flavours. You can make gin, for example by putting juniper berries in the thumper. It stands to reason tht if you add
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 1, 2003
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        The thumper is really good for extracting flavours. You can make gin, for example by putting juniper berries in the thumper. It stands to reason tht if you add freshly crushed apples or, instead just fresh apple juice, you should be able to extract the apple flavour. I've heard that you don't want ot have any seeds in the mix cause they make it bitter.

         

         "Jacques <Jacs_man@...>" <Jacs_man@...> wrote:

        My question deals with when to shut down the still.
        I ran some apple wine thru my copper pot and thumper system after
        freezing it and straining the resulting higher (condensed) alc.
        content thru the ice. I stopped the still when I wasn't able to burn
        a flame blue in a teaspoon anymore.
        After one run thru, the result of the shine was very strong, and
        quite palatable, to say the least.
        I wonder, though, if I had let it run a bit longer, would I have
        picked up more of the apple flavor?
        I've tried to add that flavor back in by mixing it with some apple
        wine and then some plain apple juice, but it doesen't taste quite as
        good as I would have expected.
        I also put some uncut still stregth in a bottle with a bit of honey,
        vanilla and oak chips. This has sat for about a month, now, and
        really tastes good, but not a flavor of apple.
        Any suggestions or direction would be appreciated. I have anothe 15
        gallons of wine to process and would like to make an improvement.
        Thanx,
        Mark



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      • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
        ... There is still a fair amount of good alcohol present there. Sure - its only cost you a dollars worth of sugar, but I just dont see the point on throwing
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 2, 2003
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          >I have never bothered in collecting tails as all the advice I have had suggests it is hardly worth it and the you should not put "contaminated collect" into a clean wash??.

          There is still a fair amount of good alcohol present there. Sure - its only cost you a dollars worth of sugar, but I just dont see the point on throwing it away, when it is so easy to collect.

          If you add the tails to your next run, they wont contaiminate it. If you do want to be overly cautious, keep the tails say from 4-5 runs, and just run them by themselves - see what you collect - it may surprise you, but it will be just as clean as your regular run.

          Tony
        • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
          ... 50% alcohol by volume is roughly the flame point. Lower % can be ignited (eg brandy at 35% for plum puddings) but that usually requires the spirit to be
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 2, 2003
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            > Can you explain further...50% of what?

            50% alcohol by volume is roughly the "flame" point. Lower % can be ignited (eg brandy at 35% for plum puddings) but that usually requires the spirit to be heated up a bit.

            Tony
          • K & J
            Mike Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 4, 2003
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              >
              Mike
              Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and heads from here on in.
              I am cautious by nature but welcome sound informed advice.
              I have been having some corresepondence with Tony and he has viewed some sketches I have done to modify my still and have now made those changes which should improve the abv % will post photo's/sketches etc after I have given it a run in the near future
              Thank once again.
               
              Cheers Ken Mc
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: Sunday, March 02, 2003 13:14:13
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
               
              K & J
              Subject: RE: [Distillers] Cut question

              Tony said:
              Its also worth collecting the tails anyhow, for redistilling at a later stage. Sure - they may only be from 50-20% alchol, but thats still good alcohol that can be recovered.

              I have never bothered in collecting tails as all the advice I have had suggests it is hardly worth it and the you should not put "contaminated collect" into a clean wash??.
              Poor advice.  What on earth can be wrong in putting "contaminated collect" into the next batch if it contains a whole heap of good ethanol?  The first batch you put in contained those "contaminants", and you successfully extracted ethanol from that batch as a distillation still is a separating device.  Nothing will have changed if you add those "contaminants" to the next batch together with all that unseparated ethanol ... ethanol which you will then have a second chance of getting your hands on.

              The way I distill is to discard 50ml of head and collect the body ( I know with my still I can get around 4.5 litre of good stuff 80%to 85%)then I will us a vase that holds 250ml which I float my hydrometer in  and will take the remainder off in 250ml lots until I reach 60% then stop.I then tip the remaining wash.
              It's your choice ... but what a waste!

              I do not want "flavours" in my alcohol as I as Like to make gin etc also like to create my own flavours and will age in Oak for making whiskey /bourbon etc.which works fine for me.
              If you do not want "flavours" in your alcohol, then you should set aside more than 50ml of heads and chuck them into the next batch together with those tails.  The heads also contain a high percentage of ethanol ... higher than the tails.  You should also aim for a higher abv than 80-85% as this is a measure of how efficient your separation has been.  I recommend you examine your equipment and procedures critically.

              If you are to continue and collect tails how far do you go? say % wise or do you have temperature bench mark as well say 90c?or if you can control the head temperature until it stops?
              As far as you like.  If you end up just collecting water, this will make no difference to any subsequent separation in another batch ... it will simply assure you that you have not thrown away any good ethanol.  Please do not run away with the idea that ethanol not collected on the middle run of a batch is lost forever.  It is not.  Nor should you believe that "contaminated" ethanol in heads or tails is forever tainted.  It is not.  I respectfully submit that you have been poorly advised by those that believe that it is, as there is absolutely no foundation to that belief.  In contrast, Tony's advice is sound and based both on practical experience and his expert knowledge of chemistry and physics.
               
              Mike N


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            • Mike Nixon
              K & J wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question Mike Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to answer in such detail and
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 4, 2003
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                K & J wrote:
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                Mike
                Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to
                answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and
                heads from here on in.
                I am cautious by nature but welcome sound informed advice.
                I have been having some corresepondence with Tony and he has viewed some
                sketches I have done to modify my still and have now made those changes
                which should improve the abv % will post photo's/sketches etc after I have
                given it a run in the near future
                Thank once again.

                Cheers Ken Mc
                =======================
                My pleasure Ken. I look forward to seeing what modifications you are making
                to your still.
                Mike N
              • K & J
                Mike, I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                  >
                  Mike,
                  I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.
                   
                  cheers Ken Mc
                   
                  -------Original Message-------
                   
                  Date: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:50:19
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                   
                  K & J wrote:
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                  Mike
                  Just noticed this reply in my inbox ...Thanks so much for taking the time to
                  answer in such detail and will follow your advice and collect the tails and
                  heads from here on in.
                  I am cautious by nature but welcome sound informed advice.
                  I have been having some corresepondence with Tony and he has viewed some
                  sketches I have done to modify my still and have now made those changes
                  which should improve the abv % will post photo's/sketches etc after I have
                  given it a run in the near future
                  Thank once again.

                  Cheers Ken Mc
                  =======================
                  My pleasure Ken. I look forward to seeing what modifications you are making
                  to your still.
                  Mike N



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                • Mike Nixon
                  K & J wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question Mike, I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain what the benefits are and
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                    K & J wrote:
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                    Mike,
                    I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain
                    what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.

                    cheers Ken Mc
                    ================================
                    Ken,

                    Three advantages:
                    a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is vaporized,
                    without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                    reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with care,
                    saving a lot of time overall
                    b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is clear of all
                    solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                    c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of volatiles,
                    enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run as you
                    start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that plots the
                    concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration in the
                    liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar leaning
                    at 45 degrees)

                    In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football game if
                    you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the mud, and
                    then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                    instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it all in a
                    bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle the
                    difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first concentrate on
                    separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the only
                    problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still where
                    they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                    Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and efficient
                    procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried to do the
                    whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.

                    Mike N
                  • K & J
                    Mike, Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions 1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required just a pot still type run, just fire
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                      >
                      Mike,
                       
                      Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions
                      1.   Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required just a pot still type run, just fire it up with only the final condenser on and wait until it stops?
                      2. When you do your final run do you make up the volume with water to say the 25 litres of the original wash or say 50/50 of the strip?
                       
                      cheers
                      Ken Mc
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      Date: Thursday, March 06, 2003 09:03:09
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                       
                      K & J wrote:
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                      Mike,
                      I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please explain
                      what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is worth while.

                      cheers Ken Mc
                      ================================
                      Ken,

                      Three advantages:
                      a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is vaporized,
                      without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                      reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with care,
                      saving a lot of time overall
                      b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is clear of all
                      solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                      c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of volatiles,
                      enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run as you
                      start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that plots the
                      concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration in the
                      liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar leaning
                      at 45 degrees)

                      In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football game if
                      you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the mud, and
                      then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                      instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it all in a
                      bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle the
                      difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first concentrate on
                      separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the only
                      problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still where
                      they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                      Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and efficient
                      procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried to do the
                      whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.

                      Mike N



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                    • Mike Nixon
                      K & J wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question Mike, Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions 1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                        K & J wrote:
                        Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question

                        Mike,

                        Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions
                        1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required just a pot
                        still type run, just fire it up with only the final condenser on and wait
                        until it stops?
                        2. When you do your final run do you make up the volume with water to say
                        the 25 litres of the original wash or say 50/50 of the strip?
                        ===============================
                        1. Yes. Judge when to stop when the temperature of the vapor is knocking at
                        around 96C
                        2. You can add water if you like, but it is far better to wait until you
                        have amassed enough strippate to do a full run. If you dilute, then you
                        lose the advantage of starting out in the middle of that cigar diagram and
                        you reduce efficiency.

                        Mike N
                      • abbababbaccc
                        Not Mike here, but offering a practical tip. Johan s amazing still http://www.amazingstill.com/ (doesn t work right now) offers you a bit of freedom if you
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 5, 2003
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                          Not Mike here, but offering a practical tip. Johan's amazing
                          still http://www.amazingstill.com/ (doesn't work right now) offers
                          you a bit of freedom if you don't want to stand by the still during
                          the stripping run. I use it to cut the original amount to half, then
                          run it through LM or VM still. Very good idea, especially if you are
                          making whiskey. Lets me process one fermentation bucket in less than
                          two weeks with one 3-4 hours final run + 20 minutes to set up/empty
                          the amazing still in total.

                          Greetz, Riku

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "K & J" <macandjo@p...> wrote:
                          > Mike,
                          >
                          > Thanks for the answer...just a couple of questions
                          > 1. Obviously on the stripping run there is no reflux required
                          just a pot
                          > still type run, just fire it up with only the final condenser on
                          and wait
                          > until it stops?
                          > 2. When you do your final run do you make up the volume with water
                          to say
                          > the 25 litres of the original wash or say 50/50 of the strip?
                          >
                          > cheers
                          > Ken Mc
                          >
                          > -------Original Message-------
                          >
                          > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, March 06, 2003 09:03:09
                          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                          >
                          > K & J wrote:
                          > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                          >
                          > Mike,
                          > I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please
                          explain
                          > what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is
                          worth while.
                          >
                          > cheers Ken Mc
                          > ================================
                          > Ken,
                          >
                          > Three advantages:
                          > a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is
                          vaporized,
                          > without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                          > reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with
                          care,
                          > saving a lot of time overall
                          > b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is
                          clear of all
                          > solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                          > c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of
                          volatiles,
                          > enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run
                          as you
                          > start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that
                          plots the
                          > concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration
                          in the
                          > liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar
                          leaning
                          > at 45 degrees)
                          >
                          > In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football
                          game if
                          > you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the
                          mud, and
                          > then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                          > instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it
                          all in a
                          > bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle the
                          > difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first
                          concentrate on
                          > separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the
                          only
                          > problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still
                          where
                          > they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                          > Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and
                          efficient
                          > procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried
                          to do the
                          > whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.
                          >
                          > Mike N
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          ~-->
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                          > Sign up today and get free set-up, domain name, and more (up to a
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > .
                        • Harley Daschund
                          Mike: What,in your opinion,would be the ideal ABV% of the wash (after being stripped) when starting the second/final distill run? Thanks. ...
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 6, 2003
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                            Mike:
                            What,in your opinion,would be the 'ideal' ABV% of the wash (after being
                            stripped) when starting the second/final distill run?
                            Thanks.






                            >From: "Mike Nixon" <mike@...>
                            >Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                            >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:09:46 +1300
                            >
                            >>===============================
                            >1. Yes. Judge when to stop when the temperature of the vapor is knocking
                            >at
                            >around 96C
                            >2. You can add water if you like, but it is far better to wait until you
                            >have amassed enough strippate to do a full run. If you dilute, then you
                            >lose the advantage of starting out in the middle of that cigar diagram and
                            >you reduce efficiency.
                            >
                            >Mike N
                            >
                            >


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                          • peter_vcb
                            some more advantages. 1. you can save up many batches and dedicate a whole day to run the whole lot properly in a reflux still. if you collect 4x25 litre
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 12, 2003
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                              some more advantages.
                              1. you can save up many batches and dedicate a whole day to run the
                              whole lot properly in a reflux still.
                              if you collect 4x25 litre batches you will only have to collect a bit
                              more heads and tails than if you ran just a single 25litre wash. but
                              you collect much more of the middle "drinkable" cut. also if you save
                              up the batches you probably wont need to dilute it back down to
                              prevent elment burn out.
                              2. you dont need much care and attention when doing stripping runs. i
                              leave the still running and check it every 15mins or so. i collect
                              everything.
                              3. if you dont have time for a reflux run you can strip a wash. this
                              is useful if you dont want an uncleared wash hanging about for a
                              month or so waiting to be contaminated.
                              4. you dont have to worry about foaming or nasty smells getting into
                              your prized reflux column. since the stripped wash is relatively pure
                              you wont have to clean the column as often/carefully. i leave my
                              stripped wash sitting on carbon.
                              5. for me, electricity is cheaper than finings

                              Peter

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                              > K & J wrote:
                              > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Cut question
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              > I have read on this site others doing stripping runs can you please
                              explain
                              > what the benefits are and the procedure and do you think it is
                              worth while.
                              >
                              > cheers Ken Mc
                              > ================================
                              > Ken,
                              >
                              > Three advantages:
                              > a) Rapidly boiling the wash and condensing everything that is
                              vaporized,
                              > without bothering to separate the heads and tails, is an easy way of
                              > reducing the volume of liquid you will subsequently process with
                              care,
                              > saving a lot of time overall
                              > b) The reduced volume of liquid you get from a stripping run is
                              clear of all
                              > solids, salts and dissolved gases.
                              > c) The liquid you get has a very much higher concentration of
                              volatiles,
                              > enabling far better separation in the subsequent rectification run
                              as you
                              > start out in the middle of the equilibrium chart (the one that
                              plots the
                              > concentration of volatiles in the vapor against their concentration
                              in the
                              > liquid the vapor came from ... the one that looks like a fat cigar
                              leaning
                              > at 45 degrees)
                              >
                              > In essence, it is much easier to clean a muddy kid after a football
                              game if
                              > you first give the brat a quick hose-down to get rid of most of the
                              mud, and
                              > then then shove him in a clean, hot bath with a cake of soap with
                              > instructions to wash behind his ears, than it is to try and do it
                              all in a
                              > bath full of muddy water. Whiskey distillers, who have to tackle
                              the
                              > difficult job of dealing with a mash full of solids, first
                              concentrate on
                              > separating the low wines from the mash in a big still, where the
                              only
                              > problem is to prevent burning, and then move on to a smaller still
                              where
                              > they concentrate on getting the right cut from the clean low wines.
                              > Experience has taught them that this is a very effective and
                              efficient
                              > procedure that results in a much better product than if they tried
                              to do the
                              > whole job in one go. It is definitely well worthwhile.
                              >
                              > Mike N
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