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Re: SV: SV: [Distillers] photos of fusel oils

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  • mwmccaw <mikemccaw@earthlink.net>
    AHA! I see the source of the misunderstanding! you don t convert ethyl acetate IN the distillate to ethanol and sodium acetate - that requires HIGH pH (ie
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 30, 2003
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      AHA! I see the source of the misunderstanding!
      you don't convert ethyl acetate IN the distillate to ethanol and
      sodium acetate - that requires HIGH pH (ie lots of lye). If you are
      making ethanol out of ethyl acetate, you do it in PURE ethyl
      acetate, with perhaps just a little water in it to help the lye
      dissolve.
      If you tried to do the conversion in your 95%, you would end up
      ruining the 95%.
      Mike

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "peter_vcb
      <viciousblackout@y...>" <viciousblackout@y...> wrote:
      > Hi Mike
      > the still has no plastic on it except for a silicon o ring which
      the
      > top straps onto. if such minute quantities could cause it, then it
      > could be saliva. thinking about it i put my finger under the
      outlet
      > and taste it and somethimes stick it under again for a second
      taste,
      > minute bits of saliva may have gotten in. i plugged the top with a
      > synthetic 0.5 micron filter disk which may have shed a small
      amount
      > of fibre into the jar too.
      > if converting the ethyl acetate in your distillate to ethanol is
      ok
      > health wise, why isnt everybody doing it, am i missing something?
      i
      > presume whiskey/brandy makers want ethyl acetate for flavour but
      not
      > for vodka makers.
      >
      > cheers
      >
      > Peter
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mwmccaw <mikemccaw@e...>"
      > <mikemccaw@e...> wrote:
      > > Pete,
      > > I don't know what was in your jar! It could be protein (which
      > could
      > > come from a variety of sources, surfactants, or some complex
      > > chemistry involving some semi-volatile subsantce in your wash.
      > >
      > > The behavior of the material (slowly appearing, then
      flocculating
      > > into a spherical agglomerate) is characteristic of a long,
      charged
      > > molecule (many proteins, all surfactants, and many other
      polymers
      > > fit this bill) that is right at its solubility limit in 40%
      spirits.
      > >
      > > by the way, an INCREDIBLY SMALL amount of polymer can create a
      very
      > > visible effect when it comes out of solution and is denatured
      > > (untangled from its natural state).
      > >
      > > A polymer? Perhaps something from a plastic, or some anti-foam
      > > ingredient added to a turbo by the manufacturer.
      > > A surfactant? Detergent or soap used to wash up - a tiny
      residual
      > > amount would be enough.
      > > A protein? I wasn't implying that you spit in the bottle, the
      most
      > > likey source for a protein would be a biofilm somewhere in the
      > > system - the most likely place would be inside the tubing that
      > feeds
      > > the bottle. You'd be very surprised to see how many (harmless)
      > > bacteria grow on the insides of tubes and pipes in the seemingly
      > > harshest of environments.
      > >
      > > Still a mystery; I was just hoping to point out some of the
      > > possibilities, and that it didn't sound like fusel oil.
      > >
      > > Mike McCaw
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "peter_vcb
      > > <viciousblackout@y...>" <viciousblackout@y...> wrote:
      > > > what do you recokon was in my jar then Mike? it was the same
      jar
      > i
      > > > used to collect all the rest of the run in so it was well
      rinsed
      > > > before i collected the tails. i didnt dilute it. i measured it
      at
      > > > 40%. i cant see it being saliva protein (funny as i said it
      > looked
      > > > like spit), it was rinsed and nobody drank from it. there was
      a
      > > lot
      > > > of it in the bottle so it would have taken a lot of spitting!
      it
      > > > seemed to grow over a few days. also is "synthetic alcohol"
      safe
      > > to
      > > > drink?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mwmccaw <mikemccaw@e...>"
      > > > <mikemccaw@e...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Ethyl acetate is commonly sold in industrial quantities as a
      > > very
      > > > > cheap solvent. It is made from acetic acid and alcohol,
      both
      > of
      > > > > which are industrially produced from molasses using yeast
      and
      > > > > acetobacter.
      > > > > "synthetic" ethyl alcohol, made by hydrolysis of ethyl
      acetate
      > > has
      > > > > historically been one of the very few (and the least
      expensive)
      > > > ways
      > > > > of making 100% ethyl alchol for industrial use. Now there
      are
      > > > > several routes to drying 95% alcohol, and the ethyl acetate
      > > route
      > > > > will probably become less used.
      > > > > Ethyl acetate is commonly used as a flavoring in small
      > > quantities,
      > > > > and the LD50 (dose that kills half the rats that get that
      much)
      > > is
      > > > > 5.6 grams/kg of body weight. In the quantities you find it
      in
      > > > > ferments, it won't kill you, but will be an off flavor. It
      a
      > > > > primary constituents of heads.
      > > > >
      > > > > Fusel oils, if present in high enough cocentration, will
      > > actually
      > > > > float to the top (hence the name fusel OIL). It has been
      > > mentioned
      > > > > here that people have found drops of it floating on the
      surface
      > > of
      > > > > turbo ferments. I have seen this, too, and that brown oily
      > > stuff
      > > > is
      > > > > indeed nasty.
      > > > >
      > > > > I have seen the cloudy stuff that self-assembles into a
      > > spherical
      > > > > structure several times over the years. The first time back
      > > when I
      > > > > was in college - I thought I had discovered something that
      > could
      > > > > grow in a half-full bottle of Scots Whisky!
      > > > > It was a beautiful, spherical, complex structure. Shake the
      > > > bottle,
      > > > > and it would disperse,and then re-form over the course of a
      day
      > > or
      > > > > two.
      > > > > I took it into the research lab I worked in for testing,
      sure
      > > that
      > > > I
      > > > > had made a major discovery. Turned out it was saliva
      > proteins.
      > > > > Someone had been drinking directly from the bottle....
      > > > >
      > > > > Now - Cloudiness on dilution can come from several sources.
      > > Hard
      > > > > water (high in Calcium or Magnesium content) will
      precipitate
      > if
      > > it
      > > > > is used for dilution, but this will eventually result in a
      > white
      > > > > deposit in the bottom of the bottle.
      > > > > Essential oils in the original brew (like in distilling gin)
      > > often
      > > > > cause cloudiness when diluted - this is simply a
      concentration
      > > > > effect, and was discussed extensively here a few months ago.
      > > > > If tap water is being used for dilution, even if it is not
      > hard,
      > > > all
      > > > > I can say is that you would be surprised at the amount of
      > > protein,
      > > > > polysaccharides and other substances in most municipal water
      > > > > supplies. Try diluting with distilled water and see if the
      > > strange
      > > > > deposit appears.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cheap plastics often contain plasticisers, and these CAN be
      > > leached
      > > > > out by hot alcohol solutions. The plasticisers could turn
      the
      > > > > solution cloudy, but shouldn't self assemble into a
      structure.
      > > > This
      > > > > flocculation is behavior characteristic of large, charged
      > > molecules.
      > > > > Food-grade plastic tubing is plasticiser-free, and the
      tubing
      > > can
      > > > > turn cloudy as it absorbs water, but that will usually
      revert
      > if
      > > > > stored dry.
      > > > >
      > > > > I agree that food-grade silicone tubing is the best of the
      lot,
      > > but
      > > > > it is expensive and hard to find in small quantities.
      > > > >
      > > > > Mike McCaw
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Johan" <kaffekopp@s...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I tested the technique myself once but in a very small
      scale.
      > > It
      > > > > works
      > > > > > well, clean alcohol. I believe they use a pot still to
      remove
      > > the
      > > > > > acetate, product becomes 95-99% since the "mash" is so
      > strong.
      > > I
      > > > > checked
      > > > > > what health effect sodium acetate have long time ago and
      if I
      > > > > remember
      > > > > > correctly it can cause diarrhea. I'm not sure if it is
      > soluble
      > > in
      > > > > > ethanol.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It is useless for domestic use, ethyl acetate is expensive
      > and
      > > > who
      > > > > wants
      > > > > > chemical produced spirits. But in large quantities
      everything
      > > > > becomes
      > > > > > cheap. It's a fast way to produce large amounts of strong
      > > clean
      > > > > alcohol.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Johan
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Johan
      > > > > > the tails were 40%. interesting about illegal alcohol
      > > producers
      > > > > using
      > > > > > this method. wonder is sodium actetate is ok to ingest. do
      > you
      > > > > know
      > > > > > how they separate it in the illegal setups? it always
      seems
      > to
      > > me
      > > > > the
      > > > > > illegal produceers could make better and cheaper product
      by
      > > just
      > > > > > getting a decent still setup and brewing their own.
      caustic
      > > soda
      > > > > > would be cheaper for most since you will use less than
      baking
      > > > soda.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Johan"
      <kaffekopp@s...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > How strong was the tail you left in the bottles?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > About ethyl acetate, if you mix a ester (like ethyl
      > acetate)
      > > > > with a
      > > > > > > basic solution a reaction will occur that is called
      > > hydrolysis.
      > > > > The
      > > > > > OH-
      > > > > > > will break the molecule so alcohol and an acid salt is
      > > > produced.
      > > > > The
      > > > > > > stronger the basic solution is, the faster it will
      > happened.
      > > > The
      > > > > > > reaction is near one way, that is once it breaks the
      ester
      > > very
      > > > > > little
      > > > > > > will react back to ester again.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Some illegal alcohol factories use this. They mix pure
      > ethyl
      > > > > acetate
      > > > > > > with NaOH. The reaction is fast and will produce a lot
      of
      > > heat.
      > > > > The
      > > > > > > product is pure ethanol and Sodium acetate that is
      > > separated.
      > > > You
      > > > > > don't
      > > > > > > have to use NaOH but that is a very strong base.
      Apparently
      > > > > baking
      > > > > > soda
      > > > > > > is good enough.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Johan
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Heres some photos of what i presume are fusel oils.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/files/P/fs1.jpg
      > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/files/P/fs2.jpg
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > i ran 3 25litre sugar washes through a pot still as a
      > > stripping
      > > > > > run.
      > > > > > > i collected all distillate foreshots and tails until it
      > > tasted
      > > > > > about
      > > > > > > 2-5%. i ran the 3 batches through again and separated
      the
      > > tails.
      > > > > > this
      > > > > > > is a gallon jar which i collected about 3.5litres of
      tails
      > > in.
      > > > it
      > > > > > > came through clear and over the next 3-5 days cloudy
      > streaks
      > > > > began
      > > > > > to
      > > > > > > appear in the jar. they were long streaks starting near
      the
      > > top
      > > > > and
      > > > > > > going downwards. the best description of it was it
      looked
      > > like
      > > > > > > somebody spat in the bottle! over the next week all the
      > bits
      > > > > > > started to form a cloudy ball. when i shook the bottle
      they
      > > all
      > > > > > > separated and rejoined into a ball within a day.
      depending
      > > on
      > > > > how
      > > > > > > cold the room as the ball would go up and down in the
      > > bottle.
      > > > it
      > > > > > was
      > > > > > > normally close to the bottom at about 17C, it went up
      when
      > > > cold.
      > > > > i
      > > > > > > poured off about 1-1.5 litre of distillate so the fusel
      was
      > > > more
      > > > > > > concentrated when i took the photos. after reading
      recent
      > > posts
      > > > > i
      > > > > > put
      > > > > > > some castic soda (sodium hydroxide) in and the
      distillate
      > > went
      > > > > > cystal
      > > > > > > clear. it didnt smell as bad either, i didnt taste it
      > before
      > > or
      > > > > > > after. is that amount of sodium hydroxide safe to drink?
      it
      > > > > could
      > > > > > be
      > > > > > > good to beat the heartburn the alcohol will cause ;-). i
      > put
      > > in
      > > > > > about
      > > > > > > 1/4 of a gram in about 2 litres.
      > > > > > > from further reading it seems to me that ethyl acetate
      will
      > > > turn
      > > > > to
      > > > > > > acetic acid of there is already acetic acid in the
      alcohol.
      > > if
      > > > i
      > > > > > add
      > > > > > > sodium hydroxide it neutralizes the acetic acid forming
      a
      > > salt.
      > > > > any
      > > > > > > remaining ethyl acetate will turn to soap by
      > saponification.
      > > is
      > > > > > this
      > > > > > > assumption correct? if it is it would be a good way to
      get a
      > > > > > neutral
      > > > > > > vodka if we can eliminate all ethyl acetate.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
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