Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: SV: SV: [Distillers] Continuous Column - works well !

Expand Messages
  • Ludwig
    ... For the Federal Government the license is free. The tax payable on a gallon of alcohol was very little. I do not remember how much but it wasn t a
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
      Johan Hemberg wrote:

      > How much do you have to pay to make fuel alcohol in USA?

      For the Federal Government the license is free. The tax payable on a
      gallon of alcohol was very little. I do not remember how much but it
      wasn't a problem. You could produce up to (I'm not to sure about this)
      around 10,000 gallon per year. Over that amount and you had to get a
      license for a bigger facility and that cost some money as well as a lot
      more paper to fill out.

      On the state level it was a completely different matter. The one and
      only state I ever called, wanted a $5,000 dollar bond. The tax was .23
      cents per gallon. What really chapped me was the fact that gasoline was
      taxed at .21 cents per gallon. The tax had to be paid monthly and you
      had to have it paid by the 10th of each month or your license was
      revolked. You were required to keep track of all grain grown, used or
      purchased for the production of alcohol, how many gallons were produced
      and on what day, and how much DDG&S you produced, how much DDG&S you
      sold or how much you fed your livestock. What kind and how much
      denaturant you purchased, where you got it, how much you paid for it,
      how much you used on each day and your total on hand of grain, natural
      alcohol, denaturant, denatured alcohol and DDG&S. Any changes you made
      to your still had to be reported and details given. You were also
      required to give a security plan. How you were going to keep people
      from stealing your alcohol and your plan had to be approved before your
      license would be granted.

      To be honest, I lost the fuel alcohol scent somewhere along the way. I
      still think about it on slower days when my mind wanders. I quickly
      focus on more pressing matter like food, water, shade. Maybe someday,
      but not anytime some! The secretary would cost me more than I would
      ever hope to save by producing my own fuel

      Ludwig
    • motie_d <motie_d@yahoo.com>
      ... a ... it ... this) ... a ... lot ... and ... was .23 ... gasoline was ... you ... or ... produced ... you ... it, ... natural ... made ... people ... your
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 3, 2003
        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Ludwig <Bluestar792@n...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Johan Hemberg wrote:
        >
        > > How much do you have to pay to make fuel alcohol in USA?
        >
        > For the Federal Government the license is free. The tax payable on
        a
        > gallon of alcohol was very little. I do not remember how much but
        it
        > wasn't a problem. You could produce up to (I'm not to sure about
        this)
        > around 10,000 gallon per year. Over that amount and you had to get
        a
        > license for a bigger facility and that cost some money as well as a
        lot
        > more paper to fill out.
        >
        > On the state level it was a completely different matter. The one
        and
        > only state I ever called, wanted a $5,000 dollar bond. The tax
        was .23
        > cents per gallon. What really chapped me was the fact that
        gasoline was
        > taxed at .21 cents per gallon. The tax had to be paid monthly and
        you
        > had to have it paid by the 10th of each month or your license was
        > revolked. You were required to keep track of all grain grown, used
        or
        > purchased for the production of alcohol, how many gallons were
        produced
        > and on what day, and how much DDG&S you produced, how much DDG&S
        you
        > sold or how much you fed your livestock. What kind and how much
        > denaturant you purchased, where you got it, how much you paid for
        it,
        > how much you used on each day and your total on hand of grain,
        natural
        > alcohol, denaturant, denatured alcohol and DDG&S. Any changes you
        made
        > to your still had to be reported and details given. You were also
        > required to give a security plan. How you were going to keep
        people
        > from stealing your alcohol and your plan had to be approved before
        your
        > license would be granted.
        >
        > To be honest, I lost the fuel alcohol scent somewhere along the
        way. I
        > still think about it on slower days when my mind wanders. I
        quickly
        > focus on more pressing matter like food, water, shade. Maybe
        someday,
        > but not anytime some! The secretary would cost me more than I
        would
        > ever hope to save by producing my own fuel
        >
        > Ludwig



        They scared me away too. And you gave the short condensed version of
        the requirements!

        Motie
      • Johan Hemberg
        Most famous exported Liquor from Sweden is Absolut Vodka: Check their ugly homepage: www.absolut.com There are most likely more brands exported as well, I
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 3, 2003
          Most famous exported Liquor from Sweden is Absolut Vodka:
          Check their ugly homepage: www.absolut.com

          There are most likely more brands exported as well, I don't know what
          brands but if you are interested you could check
          http://www.systembolaget.se/english/xindex.htm Systembolaget stores are
          the only place in Sweden you can buy liquor (at the moment, things may
          change).

          When Sweden joined the European Union they made a small mistake. It
          became legal to own a distiller for water distillation. It took at least
          a year before people realized this mistake and then you could buy
          distillation apparatus in almost every home brewing store. After a year
          or two, the government corrected the law and it was illegal again to own
          a distiller or parts to one and they requested that people would
          voluntarily give their stills to the police.
          I think they got one still in entire Sweden =)
          So maybe they haven't thought about if it is legal to own a still for
          production of fuel. You never know, I'll try to find out. (I wouldn't
          mind to denature the mash, a solar powered continuous still with
          computer control would be worth it)

          Johan


          Living here in the USA I have noticed their is no commerical whiskey
          from Sweden in any of our liquor stores that I have seen. Could you
          pass along the names of some of Swedens better name brands. I do not
          recall ever seeing even one.

          Ludwig






          Johan Hemberg wrote:

          >
          > Hi
          >
          > I live in sweden. It's illegal to own a distiller here, or parts to a
          > distiller (but it's common anyway). No one really care much if you
          > have a still for domestic use, but if the police would find a
          > continous still it would probably become a problem. I don't know
          > anyone that makes fuel alcohol over here, I thought about it and I'll
          > check if it's possible. How much do you have to pay to make fuel
          > alcohol in USA?
          >
          > Johan
          >
          >
          > > I do not know where you live but in the USA if you get a fuel
          > > production permit from both the Federal and State governments and
          > > pay any tax due it is completely legal
          >
          >
          > Ludwig
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > It would be so fun to put temperarure probes all the way up the
          > > column and "see" the whole process in the computer. Why can't this
          > > hobby be legal (please God make it so =)
          > >
          > > Johan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Finally had a chance to run my continuous still - and it went very
          > well.
          > >
          > > The basic idea is shown at http://homedistiller.org/cont.htm - I'll
          > try
          > >
          > > and get the photos developed in the next week or so.
          > >
          > > Basically its a 1L boiler, with an overflow. The feed point is 32cm
          > up
          > > from the boiler, and there is 80cm above the feedpoint to the
          > condensor
          > > (too short - needs to be taller). The idea is that the boiler puts
          > out
          > > a
          > > good flow of steam - this steam strips any alcohol from the incoming

          > > feed, and it goes up to the rectifying section as per normal. The
          > > fully stripped
          > > feed is now basically water - this makes it way down into the
          boiler,
          > > and
          > > out the overflow. The overflow is submerged, to prevent steam
          getting
          > > out,
          > > its inlet is above the element, so that there is no way the element
          > can
          > > be
          > > left dry, and it has a syphon breaker on it (a vent at the high
          > > point) so that the contents dont simply syphon out.
          > >
          > > The bottom boiler was very easy to control - just leave the boiler
          > > (1500W)
          > > running at max. Start it with just water in there, and its boiling
          at
          > > 100.0C Control the feedrate into the column by watching this lower
          > > boiler
          > > - if the temperature starts getting lower than 99.8C then there is
          > > too much alcohol getting down there, so slow the feed down a little.

          > > It was
          > good
          > >
          > > around 70 mL/min. The overflow is simply into a bucket sitting
          > beneath
          > > the
          > > still. Needs bailing out every hour or so. Because there is always

          > > a steady dribble of water out the overflow, you are always assured
          > > that the boiler is full and not boiling dry. Because the boiler is
          > > kept above 99.8
          > > (or > 100.0C), then you know that there is now alcohol getting down
          > that
          > >
          > > low, and thus none going out the drain. I collected some and
          > > measured it - couldnt discerne any alcohol present.
          > >
          > > The feed point has a loop of tube on the outside of the column,
          > > which dips down, then comes up into a wee funnel. The wash is feed
          > > at a steady dribble into the funnel. The dip in the tube acts as a
          > > vapour lock to
          > p
          > >
          > > revent steam coming out the column there. You cant dirrectly plumb
          > the
          > > fermentor into the column, as then there is no way to judge how fast
          > it
          > > is
          > > feeding. By dripping into the funnel, you can see how fast it is
          > > running. Inside the column, the feed point simply drips the feed
          > > into the
          > center
          > > of
          > > the column.
          > >
          > > Both the rectifying and stripping sections have scrubbers as
          > > packing. Fully insulated on the outside.
          > >
          > > Run the head like you normally would a Nixon-Stone head - start off
          > > at total reflux, until the purity increases, and the head temp has
          > dropped
          > > to
          > > 78.2 - 78.4C In my case, with such a short column (80cm), it was
          > never
          > > going to sustain that purity, so I ended up running the head at 80C
          > (82%
          > > ?)
          > > Open up the collection valve until the head temperature starts
          > > rising, then back off a little, to keep at the high purity. Do some

          > > simple maths - if the feed is at 16%, and you're collecting at 82%,
          > > then you expect
          > the
          > >
          > > collection to be about 1 drip for every 5 of feed. If you try and
          > > run it at too high a reflux ratio (eg try to push a short column to
          > > make very high
          > > purity), all that happens is that you overload the total column with
          > > alcohol, and it starts showing up in the boiler (temp drops) (and
          > > heading
          > > out the drain). I was collecting at about 5-8 mL/min
          > >
          > > Once its set up and running nicely, theres no fiddling to do - the
          > whole
          > >
          > > run is constant, with an even collection / reflux rate. Thats
          > because
          > > nothing ever changes - the feed maintains the same %, the boiler is
          > > always only boiling water, etc. About the only drop off was late in

          > > the run, when
          > > the flowrater out of the fermentor slowed a little as it ran out of
          > > head.
          > > That could be easily fixed by mounting the feed a bit higher - eg if
          > > the
          > > fermentor is going to drop 40cm, then the head change say from 1.4
          to
          > > 1.0 m
          > > is far less difference than going from 0.4 to 0m head.
          > >
          > > Being such a small volume, you're up and running inside 10 minutes.
          > It
          > > doesnt matter if you're trying to run 10L or 100L through it, the
          > > same setup would work. With a feed rate of 70 mL/min, it took
          > > around 5-6 hours to do 25L of wash - just a touch longer than what
          > > I'd expect for a
          > 1500W
          > >
          > > setup, but that involved a fair amount of frigging around, trying
          > > different settings etc. I'd expect I could run it faster if there
          > > was a taller stripping section (say 40-50cm), and also better purity

          > > (and faster) with a
          > > taller rectifying section (say 1.2 - 1.5m).
          > >
          > > I wont be using this still as a standard - it was no advantage over
          > > my standard 30L boiler etc, but interesting to prove that I could do

          > > it. Where it would be advantageos would be if I wanted to run more
          > > than
          > 25L
          > >
          > > through it in a single pass, if a quick startup/shut down was of
          > > benefit, or where, say for example, laws deemed that a still with
          > > less than 5L capacity werent stills ....
          > >
          > > The only controls needed are two thermometers - one in the boiler,
          > > and one in the head. Use the boiler one to set and control the feed

          > > rate, and the
          > > head one to control the collection rate. Couldn't be easier.
          > >
          > > Tony
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
          > > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
          > > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
          > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          >
          >
          > --
          > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
          > Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
          > http://shopnow.netscape.com/
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
          > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
          > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


          --
          Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
          Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
          http://shopnow.netscape.com/



          To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
          distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Ludwig
          We looked in a liquor store today and sure enough their it was. Rated as one of their better vodka s. Priced accordingly Ludwig ... -- Your favorite stores,
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 5, 2003
            We looked in a liquor store today and sure enough their it was. Rated
            as one of their better vodka's. Priced accordingly

            Ludwig

            Johan Hemberg wrote:

            >
            > Most famous exported Liquor from Sweden is Absolut Vodka:
            > Check their ugly homepage: www.absolut.com
            >
            > There are most likely more brands exported as well, I don't know what
            > brands but if you are interested you could check
            > http://www.systembolaget.se/english/xindex.htm Systembolaget stores are
            > the only place in Sweden you can buy liquor (at the moment, things may
            > change).
            >
            > When Sweden joined the European Union they made a small mistake. It
            > became legal to own a distiller for water distillation. It took at least
            > a year before people realized this mistake and then you could buy
            > distillation apparatus in almost every home brewing store. After a year
            > or two, the government corrected the law and it was illegal again to own
            > a distiller or parts to one and they requested that people would
            > voluntarily give their stills to the police.
            > I think they got one still in entire Sweden =)
            > So maybe they haven't thought about if it is legal to own a still for
            > production of fuel. You never know, I'll try to find out. (I wouldn't
            > mind to denature the mash, a solar powered continuous still with
            > computer control would be worth it)
            >
            > Johan
            >
            >
            > Living here in the USA I have noticed their is no commerical whiskey
            > from Sweden in any of our liquor stores that I have seen. Could you
            > pass along the names of some of Swedens better name brands. I do not
            > recall ever seeing even one.
            >
            > Ludwig
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Johan Hemberg wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Hi
            > >
            > > I live in sweden. It's illegal to own a distiller here, or parts to a
            > > distiller (but it's common anyway). No one really care much if you
            > > have a still for domestic use, but if the police would find a
            > > continous still it would probably become a problem. I don't know
            > > anyone that makes fuel alcohol over here, I thought about it and I'll
            > > check if it's possible. How much do you have to pay to make fuel
            > > alcohol in USA?
            > >
            > > Johan
            > >
            > >
            > > > I do not know where you live but in the USA if you get a fuel
            > > > production permit from both the Federal and State governments and
            > > > pay any tax due it is completely legal
            > >
            > >
            > > Ludwig
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > It would be so fun to put temperarure probes all the way up the
            > > > column and "see" the whole process in the computer. Why can't this
            > > > hobby be legal (please God make it so =)
            > > >
            > > > Johan
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Finally had a chance to run my continuous still - and it went very
            > > well.
            > > >
            > > > The basic idea is shown at http://homedistiller.org/cont.htm - I'll
            > > try
            > > >
            > > > and get the photos developed in the next week or so.
            > > >
            > > > Basically its a 1L boiler, with an overflow. The feed point is 32cm
            > > up
            > > > from the boiler, and there is 80cm above the feedpoint to the
            > > condensor
            > > > (too short - needs to be taller). The idea is that the boiler puts
            > > out
            > > > a
            > > > good flow of steam - this steam strips any alcohol from the incoming
            >
            > > > feed, and it goes up to the rectifying section as per normal. The
            > > > fully stripped
            > > > feed is now basically water - this makes it way down into the
            > boiler,
            > > > and
            > > > out the overflow. The overflow is submerged, to prevent steam
            > getting
            > > > out,
            > > > its inlet is above the element, so that there is no way the element
            > > can
            > > > be
            > > > left dry, and it has a syphon breaker on it (a vent at the high
            > > > point) so that the contents dont simply syphon out.
            > > >
            > > > The bottom boiler was very easy to control - just leave the boiler
            > > > (1500W)
            > > > running at max. Start it with just water in there, and its boiling
            > at
            > > > 100.0C Control the feedrate into the column by watching this lower
            > > > boiler
            > > > - if the temperature starts getting lower than 99.8C then there is
            > > > too much alcohol getting down there, so slow the feed down a little.
            >
            > > > It was
            > > good
            > > >
            > > > around 70 mL/min. The overflow is simply into a bucket sitting
            > > beneath
            > > > the
            > > > still. Needs bailing out every hour or so. Because there is always
            >
            > > > a steady dribble of water out the overflow, you are always assured
            > > > that the boiler is full and not boiling dry. Because the boiler is
            > > > kept above 99.8
            > > > (or > 100.0C), then you know that there is now alcohol getting down
            > > that
            > > >
            > > > low, and thus none going out the drain. I collected some and
            > > > measured it - couldnt discerne any alcohol present.
            > > >
            > > > The feed point has a loop of tube on the outside of the column,
            > > > which dips down, then comes up into a wee funnel. The wash is feed
            > > > at a steady dribble into the funnel. The dip in the tube acts as a
            > > > vapour lock to
            > > p
            > > >
            > > > revent steam coming out the column there. You cant dirrectly plumb
            > > the
            > > > fermentor into the column, as then there is no way to judge how fast
            > > it
            > > > is
            > > > feeding. By dripping into the funnel, you can see how fast it is
            > > > running. Inside the column, the feed point simply drips the feed
            > > > into the
            > > center
            > > > of
            > > > the column.
            > > >
            > > > Both the rectifying and stripping sections have scrubbers as
            > > > packing. Fully insulated on the outside.
            > > >
            > > > Run the head like you normally would a Nixon-Stone head - start off
            > > > at total reflux, until the purity increases, and the head temp has
            > > dropped
            > > > to
            > > > 78.2 - 78.4C In my case, with such a short column (80cm), it was
            > > never
            > > > going to sustain that purity, so I ended up running the head at 80C
            > > (82%
            > > > ?)
            > > > Open up the collection valve until the head temperature starts
            > > > rising, then back off a little, to keep at the high purity. Do some
            >
            > > > simple maths - if the feed is at 16%, and you're collecting at 82%,
            > > > then you expect
            > > the
            > > >
            > > > collection to be about 1 drip for every 5 of feed. If you try and
            > > > run it at too high a reflux ratio (eg try to push a short column to
            > > > make very high
            > > > purity), all that happens is that you overload the total column with
            > > > alcohol, and it starts showing up in the boiler (temp drops) (and
            > > > heading
            > > > out the drain). I was collecting at about 5-8 mL/min
            > > >
            > > > Once its set up and running nicely, theres no fiddling to do - the
            > > whole
            > > >
            > > > run is constant, with an even collection / reflux rate. Thats
            > > because
            > > > nothing ever changes - the feed maintains the same %, the boiler is
            > > > always only boiling water, etc. About the only drop off was late in
            >
            > > > the run, when
            > > > the flowrater out of the fermentor slowed a little as it ran out of
            > > > head.
            > > > That could be easily fixed by mounting the feed a bit higher - eg if
            > > > the
            > > > fermentor is going to drop 40cm, then the head change say from 1.4
            > to
            > > > 1.0 m
            > > > is far less difference than going from 0.4 to 0m head.
            > > >
            > > > Being such a small volume, you're up and running inside 10 minutes.
            > > It
            > > > doesnt matter if you're trying to run 10L or 100L through it, the
            > > > same setup would work. With a feed rate of 70 mL/min, it took
            > > > around 5-6 hours to do 25L of wash - just a touch longer than what
            > > > I'd expect for a
            > > 1500W
            > > >
            > > > setup, but that involved a fair amount of frigging around, trying
            > > > different settings etc. I'd expect I could run it faster if there
            > > > was a taller stripping section (say 40-50cm), and also better purity
            >
            > > > (and faster) with a
            > > > taller rectifying section (say 1.2 - 1.5m).
            > > >
            > > > I wont be using this still as a standard - it was no advantage over
            > > > my standard 30L boiler etc, but interesting to prove that I could do
            >
            > > > it. Where it would be advantageos would be if I wanted to run more
            > > > than
            > > 25L
            > > >
            > > > through it in a single pass, if a quick startup/shut down was of
            > > > benefit, or where, say for example, laws deemed that a still with
            > > > less than 5L capacity werent stills ....
            > > >
            > > > The only controls needed are two thermometers - one in the boiler,
            > > > and one in the head. Use the boiler one to set and control the feed
            >
            > > > rate, and the
            > > > head one to control the collection rate. Couldn't be easier.
            > > >
            > > > Tony
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
            > > > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
            > > > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
            > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
            > > Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
            > > http://shopnow.netscape.com/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
            > > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
            > > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
            > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            >
            >
            > --
            > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
            > Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
            > http://shopnow.netscape.com/
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
            > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2814790.4175286.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705041694:HM/A=1327985/R=0/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;4870024;7586687;x?http://www.ameriquestmortgage.com/welcome.html?ad=Yahoo01>
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
            > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


            --
            Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
            Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
            http://shopnow.netscape.com/
          • waljaco <waljaco@hotmail.com>
            You could fortify it by freeze-distillation , a 10% wash giving you a 20% product which is the usual alcohol content of fortified wines. See msg 3197 by
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 7, 2003
              You could fortify it by 'freeze-distillation', a 10% wash giving you
              a 20% product which is the usual alcohol content of fortified wines.
              See msg 3197 by 'ups474' (Jack) for details.
              Wal

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gil Hardwick <gruagach@h...> wrote:
              > At 04:25 AM 30/12/02 -0800, you wrote:
              >
              > >With all due respect, isn't it sort of remindign me of a fortified
              beer?
              >
              > No, not this batch which is made from molasses and dark
              > brown sugar not malt.
              >
              > My question concerned what reason would there be to make
              > up a wort so full of complex flavours and aromas only to distill
              > it all out then add bought essences.
              >
              > Gil
            • Aaron Pelly
              ... Jack seems to have been absent for some time now. I hope it s not permanent.
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 8, 2003
                > See msg 3197 by 'ups474' (Jack) for details.
                > Wal

                Jack seems to have been absent for some time now. I hope it's not permanent.
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.