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Re: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column

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  • Mike Nixon
    Robert Stam wrote: Subject: [Distillers] 100 mm (4 ) Diam. Column Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns and the need for
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2003
      Robert Stam wrote:
      Subject: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column

      Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns and the
      need for spreaders. Do you mean like plates with perforations for vapour to
      come up and reflux to drip down, placed at intervals?
      ===================================
      Hi Rob.  A very happy New Year to you too!
       
      We have noticed that the wider a column, the greater the tendency is for liquid reflux to form 'preferred' paths back down through the packing.  Once these are established, the reflux zips down rapidly back to the boiler and therefore takes no part in the reboiling that we want.  It seems to be a bit like 'choking', but without the blockage that 'choking' produces ... in fact, quite the opposite.
       
      Shaped packing is apparently designed in all its wierd and wonderful shapes to try and counter this, and I'm sure they have managed to overcome it to some degree.  However, once a column gets too big, trays become the norm in order to manage the reflux flow.  Perforated plates set in the packing at intervals might help a bit to discourage this 'channelling', but the snag is that they might also introduce greater impedance to vapor flow if the holes are too small.  However, this is something you might like to explore, as that is just an 'uneducated guess'.  If you do try some experiments, I'm sure we would all be eager to learn what you find.
       
      Cheers!
      Mike N
       
    • Robert Stam
      Hi Mike, greetings for the new year. I have a few ideas for plates. That reminds me of the viewing ports in those German stills we got documentation on. I
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2003
        Hi Mike, greetings for the new year.
         
        I have a few ideas for plates. That reminds me of the viewing ports in those German stills we got documentation on. I believe that they would be for checking the condensate fluid levels in each tray, since the level is adjustable with an overflow pipe.
         
        Cheers, Rob
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Nixon [mailto:mike@...]
        Sent: Friday, 3 January 2003 9:15 a.m.
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column

        Robert Stam wrote:
        Subject: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column

        Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns and the
        need for spreaders. Do you mean like plates with perforations for vapour to
        come up and reflux to drip down, placed at intervals?
        ===================================
        Hi Rob.  A very happy New Year to you too!
         
        We have noticed that the wider a column, the greater the tendency is for liquid reflux to form 'preferred' paths back down through the packing.  Once these are established, the reflux zips down rapidly back to the boiler and therefore takes no part in the reboiling that we want.  It seems to be a bit like 'choking', but without the blockage that 'choking' produces ... in fact, quite the opposite.
         
        Shaped packing is apparently designed in all its wierd and wonderful shapes to try and counter this, and I'm sure they have managed to overcome it to some degree.  However, once a column gets too big, trays become the norm in order to manage the reflux flow.  Perforated plates set in the packing at intervals might help a bit to discourage this 'channelling', but the snag is that they might also introduce greater impedance to vapor flow if the holes are too small.  However, this is something you might like to explore, as that is just an 'uneducated guess'.  If you do try some experiments, I'm sure we would all be eager to learn what you find.
         
        Cheers!
        Mike N
         


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      • fred_onion <sambucca@nzoomail.com>
        Hi Robert, If you get the extended column that is available with your still, it will increase the performance and alc%. Mikes comment regarding the path of the
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 3, 2003
          Hi Robert,

          If you get the extended column that is available with your still, it
          will increase the performance and alc%.

          Mikes comment regarding the path of the vapour condensing back into
          the boiler is quite correct from my observations.

          To help overcome this when teasing out the scrubbers, I take
          particular care to ensure there are no gaps in the SS media at the
          sides of the column. I also use scrubbers in tandum with the marbles,
          which allows pockets of vapour up the still to develop, and seems to
          assist the still performance. (A layering effect)

          Fred

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Stam <Robert.Stam@b...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Mike, greetings for the new year.
          >
          > I have a few ideas for plates. That reminds me of the viewing ports
          in those
          > German stills we got documentation on. I believe that they would be
          for
          > checking the condensate fluid levels in each tray, since the level
          is
          > adjustable with an overflow pipe.
          >
          > Cheers, Rob
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Mike Nixon [mailto:mike@s...]
          > Sent: Friday, 3 January 2003 9:15 a.m.
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column
          >
          >
          > Robert Stam wrote:
          > Subject: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column
          >
          > Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns
          and the
          > need for spreaders. Do you mean like plates with perforations for
          vapour to
          > come up and reflux to drip down, placed at intervals?
          > ===================================
          > Hi Rob. A very happy New Year to you too!
          >
          > We have noticed that the wider a column, the greater the tendency
          is for
          > liquid reflux to form 'preferred' paths back down through the
          packing. Once
          > these are established, the reflux zips down rapidly back to the
          boiler and
          > therefore takes no part in the reboiling that we want. It seems to
          be a bit
          > like 'choking', but without the blockage that 'choking'
          produces ... in
          > fact, quite the opposite.
          >
          > Shaped packing is apparently designed in all its wierd and
          wonderful shapes
          > to try and counter this, and I'm sure they have managed to overcome
          it to
          > some degree. However, once a column gets too big, trays become the
          norm in
          > order to manage the reflux flow. Perforated plates set in the
          packing at
          > intervals might help a bit to discourage this 'channelling', but
          the snag is
          > that they might also introduce greater impedance to vapor flow if
          the holes
          > are too small. However, this is something you might like to
          explore, as
          > that is just an 'uneducated guess'. If you do try some
          experiments, I'm
          > sure we would all be eager to learn what you find.
          >
          > Cheers!
          > Mike N
          >
          >
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        • BOKAKOB
          Hey, Rob! I think if you extend the column a little more, making the total height of at least 3.5 feet (or 1.067 meters), the spirit will come out close to
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 3, 2003

            Hey, Rob! I think if you extend the column a little more, making the total height of at least 3.5 feet (or 1.067 meters), the spirit will come out close to 92-95% depending how "fast" you run your still. I am not sure about the width though. It seems 4inches (10 cm) diameter is a little disproportional judging all data available. I think it will still work fine, but it would constitute to waste of material in my opinion.

             Robert Stam <Robert.Stam@...> wrote:

            Hi all... happy new year!
            I have a Duplast still with a 330 mm (1') high, 100 mm (4") wide column. I have replaced the marbles that it came with, with SS scrubbers, added a triac controlled power regulator for the 1500W element. The output is still pretty marginal at 65% abv. I figure the next thing to do is extend the column by another 1m (3'),
            giving 1.3m (4') overall. How does that sound? Does the column need to be longer since it is so wide?
            Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns and the need for spreaders. Do you mean like plates with perforations for vapour to
            come up and reflux to drip down, placed at intervals?
            Cheers, Rob


            I can be wrong I must say.
            Cheers, Alex...



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          • Robert Stam
            Thanks for your reply Fred. I take it that you have one of these Duplast stills? What sort of %abv do you get out of it with the extended column? Cheers, Rob
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 5, 2003
              Thanks for your reply Fred. I take it that you have one of these Duplast stills? What sort of %abv do you get out of it with the extended column?
               
              Cheers, Rob
              -----Original Message-----
              From: fred_onion <sambucca@...> [mailto:sambucca@...]
              Sent: Saturday, 4 January 2003 12:02 a.m.
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: 100 mm (4") Diam. Column

              Hi Robert,

              If you get the extended column that is available with your still, it
              will increase the performance and alc%.

              Mikes comment regarding the path of the vapour condensing back into
              the boiler is quite correct from my observations.

              To help overcome this when teasing out the scrubbers, I take
              particular care to ensure there are no gaps in the SS media at the
              sides of the column. I also use scrubbers in tandum with the marbles,
              which allows pockets of vapour up the still to develop, and seems to
              assist the still performance. (A layering effect)

              Fred

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Stam <Robert.Stam@b...>
              wrote:
              > Hi Mike, greetings for the new year.

              > I have a few ideas for plates. That reminds me of the viewing ports
              in those
              > German stills we got documentation on. I believe that they would be
              for
              > checking the condensate fluid levels in each tray, since the level
              is
              > adjustable with an overflow pipe.

              > Cheers, Rob
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Mike Nixon [mailto:mike@s...]
              > Sent: Friday, 3 January 2003 9:15 a.m.
              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column
              >
              >
              > Robert Stam wrote:
              > Subject: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column
              >
              > Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns
              and the
              > need for spreaders. Do you mean like plates with perforations for
              vapour to
              > come up and reflux to drip down, placed at intervals?
              > ===================================
              > Hi Rob.  A very happy New Year to you too!

              > We have noticed that the wider a column, the greater the tendency
              is for
              > liquid reflux to form 'preferred' paths back down through the
              packing.  Once
              > these are established, the reflux zips down rapidly back to the
              boiler and
              > therefore takes no part in the reboiling that we want.  It seems to
              be a bit
              > like 'choking', but without the blockage that 'choking'
              produces ... in
              > fact, quite the opposite.

              > Shaped packing is apparently designed in all its wierd and
              wonderful shapes
              > to try and counter this, and I'm sure they have managed to overcome
              it to
              > some degree.  However, once a column gets too big, trays become the
              norm in
              > order to manage the reflux flow.  Perforated plates set in the
              packing at
              > intervals might help a bit to discourage this 'channelling', but
              the snag is
              > that they might also introduce greater impedance to vapor flow if
              the holes
              > are too small.  However, this is something you might like to
              explore, as
              > that is just an 'uneducated guess'.  If you do try some
              experiments, I'm
              > sure we would all be eager to learn what you find.

              > Cheers!
              > Mike N

              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor     
              >
              > ADVERTISEMENT

              >
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              > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
              >
              >
              > Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This
              electronic mail
              > message and any accompanying attachments may contain information
              that is
              > privileged and CONFIDENTIAL.  If you are not the intended recipient
              you are
              > advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or
              reproduction of
              > the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you
              have
              > received this document in error, please notify the sender
              immediately and
              > destroy the message.



              To unsubscribe from this group send an email to  distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com

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              Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This electronic mail message and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient you are advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this document in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy the message.

            • Robert Stam
              Hi Alex... the original column is 100mm, so I thought to just extend it at the same diam. I could put a reducer on it down to 50/75mm. Cheers, Rob ... From:
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 5, 2003
                Hi Alex...
                 
                the original column is 100mm, so I thought to just extend it at the same diam. I could put a reducer on it down to 50/75mm.
                 
                Cheers, Rob
                -----Original Message-----
                From: BOKAKOB [mailto:bokakob@...]
                Sent: Saturday, 4 January 2003 2:11 a.m.
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column

                Hey, Rob! I think if you extend the column a little more, making the total height of at least 3.5 feet (or 1.067 meters), the spirit will come out close to 92-95% depending how "fast" you run your still. I am not sure about the width though. It seems 4inches (10 cm) diameter is a little disproportional judging all data available. I think it will still work fine, but it would constitute to waste of material in my opinion.

                 Robert Stam <Robert.Stam@...> wrote:

                Hi all... happy new year!
                I have a Duplast still with a 330 mm (1') high, 100 mm (4") wide column. I have replaced the marbles that it came with, with SS scrubbers, added a triac controlled power regulator for the 1500W element. The output is still pretty marginal at 65% abv. I figure the next thing to do is extend the column by another 1m (3'),
                giving 1.3m (4') overall. How does that sound? Does the column need to be longer since it is so wide?
                Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns and the need for spreaders. Do you mean like plates with perforations for vapour to
                come up and reflux to drip down, placed at intervals?
                Cheers, Rob


                I can be wrong I must say.
                Cheers, Alex...



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                To unsubscribe from this group send an email to  distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com

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                Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This electronic mail message and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient you are advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this document in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy the message.

              • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
                ... You ll need to keep it at 100mm if you are going to keep the marbles in there. Marbles only have about 33% voidage around them, so in order to give enough
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 5, 2003
                  > the original column is 100mm, so I thought to just extend it at the same diam. I could put a reducer on it down to 50/75mm.

                  You'll need to keep it at 100mm if you are going to keep the marbles in there. Marbles only have about 33% voidage around them, so in order to give enough area for the vapour & liquid to get past, you need a wider diameter than if only using scrubbers (which have about 95% voidage). A narrow column filled with marbles is a recipe for column flooding.

                  Tony
                • Robert Stam
                  Hi Tony... I have replaced the marbles with SS scrubbers in the current (330mm x 100mm) column. Cheers, Rob ... From: Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 5, 2003
                    Hi Tony...
                     
                    I have replaced the marbles with SS scrubbers in the current (330mm x 100mm)  column.
                     
                    Cheers, Rob
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS) [mailto:Tony.Ackland@...]
                    Sent: Monday, 6 January 2003 10:36 a.m.
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column

                    > the original column is 100mm, so I thought to just extend it at the same diam. I could put a reducer on it down to 50/75mm.

                    You'll need to keep it at 100mm if you are going to keep the marbles in there.  Marbles only have about 33% voidage around them, so in order to give enough area for the vapour & liquid to get past, you need a wider diameter than if only using scrubbers (which have about 95% voidage).  A narrow column filled with marbles is a recipe for column flooding.

                    Tony


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                    Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This electronic mail message and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient you are advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this document in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy the message.

                  • williejohnc <wpcarlton@xtra.co.nz>
                    ... ...
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 5, 2003
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Stam <Robert.Stam@b...> wrote:
                      > Thanks for your reply Fred. I take it that you have one of these Duplast
                      > stills? What sort of %abv do you get out of it with the extended column?
                      >
                      > Cheers, Rob
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: fred_onion <sambucca@n...> [mailto:sambucca@n...]
                      > Sent: Saturday, 4 January 2003 12:02 a.m.
                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: 100 mm (4") Diam. Column
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Robert,
                      >
                      > If you get the extended column that is available with your still, it
                      > will increase the performance and alc%.
                      >
                      > Mikes comment regarding the path of the vapour condensing back into
                      > the boiler is quite correct from my observations.
                      >
                      > To help overcome this when teasing out the scrubbers, I take
                      > particular care to ensure there are no gaps in the SS media at the
                      > sides of the column. I also use scrubbers in tandum with the marbles,
                      > which allows pockets of vapour up the still to develop, and seems to
                      > assist the still performance. (A layering effect)
                      >
                      > Fred
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Stam <Robert.Stam@b...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Hi Mike, greetings for the new year.
                      > >
                      > > I have a few ideas for plates. That reminds me of the viewing ports
                      > in those
                      > > German stills we got documentation on. I believe that they would be
                      > for
                      > > checking the condensate fluid levels in each tray, since the level
                      > is
                      > > adjustable with an overflow pipe.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers, Rob
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Mike Nixon [mailto:mike@s...]
                      > > Sent: Friday, 3 January 2003 9:15 a.m.
                      > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Robert Stam wrote:
                      > > Subject: [Distillers] 100 mm (4") Diam. Column
                      > >
                      > > Mike Nixon/Mike McCaw mention channelling in wide diameter columns
                      > and the
                      > > need for spreaders. Do you mean like plates with perforations for
                      > vapour to
                      > > come up and reflux to drip down, placed at intervals?
                      > > ===================================
                      > > Hi Rob. A very happy New Year to you too!
                      > >
                      > > We have noticed that the wider a column, the greater the tendency
                      > is for
                      > > liquid reflux to form 'preferred' paths back down through the
                      > packing. Once
                      > > these are established, the reflux zips down rapidly back to the
                      > boiler and
                      > > therefore takes no part in the reboiling that we want. It seems to
                      > be a bit
                      > > like 'choking', but without the blockage that 'choking'
                      > produces ... in
                      > > fact, quite the opposite.
                      > >
                      > > Shaped packing is apparently designed in all its wierd and
                      > wonderful shapes
                      > > to try and counter this, and I'm sure they have managed to overcome
                      > it to
                      > > some degree. However, once a column gets too big, trays become the
                      > norm in
                      > > order to manage the reflux flow. Perforated plates set in the
                      > packing at
                      > > intervals might help a bit to discourage this 'channelling', but
                      > the snag is
                      > > that they might also introduce greater impedance to vapor flow if
                      > the holes
                      > > are too small. However, this is something you might like to
                      > explore, as
                      > > that is just an 'uneducated guess'. If you do try some
                      > experiments, I'm
                      > > sure we would all be eager to learn what you find.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers!
                      > > Mike N
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > >
                      > > ADVERTISEMENT
                      > >
                      > >
                      > < http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2814790.4175286.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=17
                      > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2814790.4175286.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=17>
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                      > > To unsubscribe from this group send an email to
                      > > distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > > < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> >
                      > Service.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This
                      > electronic mail
                      > > message and any accompanying attachments may contain information
                      > that is
                      > > privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient
                      > you are
                      > > advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or
                      > reproduction of
                      > > the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you
                      > have
                      > > received this document in error, please notify the sender
                      > immediately and
                      > > destroy the message.
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      > Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This electronic
                      mail
                      > message and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is
                      > privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient
                      you are
                      > advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or
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                      > the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
                      > received this document in error, please notify the sender
                      immediately and
                      > destroy the message.

                      Robert,
                      I run a Duplast Still with extended column (700mm) and have put
                      approx. 250litres of wash thru it in 25 litre batches. Boiler is
                      supplied 25litre plastic barrel with element fitted. (power unknown,
                      suspect 800 watts)
                      Column currently has the supplied marbles (plastic balls) but I am
                      going to try some layered SS scrubbers within the balls. I suspect
                      there may be some tracking.
                      Pleased with results to date however.
                      From switch on at wall, 5 hours to complete the run.
                      Dispose of first 100 mls of distillate to the lawnmower (it's now got
                      a mind of its own. )
                      I run the still and maintain 79.5 - 90.0 C in the head, by contolling
                      the water flow to the reflux coil.
                      No control is needed in the boiler.
                      I collect until I can no longer hold 81 - 82 C in the head.
                      Results vary between 89 - 91% ABV.
                      Spirit is good but I think I can improve. Some runs produce a spirit
                      with a nail polish odour which I don't care for. This is removed
                      mostly by carbon over 3 days. Suspect I am collecting too much tails
                      or tracking in the column.
                      As I produce this for flavouring with a rum essence, it is not
                      noticeable. However when I give the broken down spirit to my son who
                      is a vodka fanatic, he takes a sip and says "keep trying".
                      Looking forward to making one of Alex's designs for comparison.
                      Hope this helps.
                      Bill C.
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