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Acidic Alcohol??

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  • Adrian Smith
    Hi folks, Due to a lack of yeast at the moment, I decided to run some MORE old wine through my basic reflux still. I used 2 UK Gallons (9 Litres) of old wine.
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 1, 2002
      Hi folks,
      Due to a lack of yeast at the moment, I
      decided to run some MORE old wine through my
      basic reflux still. I used 2 UK Gallons (9
      Litres) of old wine. 1 Gallon was just musty old
      wine and the other Gallon smelt like it was
      vinegar and made you cough a bit if you inhaled
      it. Throwing caution to the wind I chucked it all
      in my boiler with some tails from a previous run
      and started to distill. My problem is that
      through the whole run : methy bit,heads,middle,
      tails, the spirit coming out tasted VERY sharp
      and smelt like vinegar. Previous runs have
      produced a lovely vodka from old wine. I was
      wondering if it was very difficult to seperate
      the element that causes the vinegar smell\taste.
      Any advice appreciated.

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    • Adrian Smith
      Sorry for the repost but I could do with an answer to this one, if anybody can help.?? Thanks. Hi folks, Due to a lack of yeast at the moment, I decided to run
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
        Sorry for the repost but I could do with an
        answer to this one, if anybody can help.??

        Thanks.


        Hi folks,
        Due to a lack of yeast at the moment, I
        decided to run some MORE old wine through my
        basic reflux still. I used 2 UK Gallons (9
        Litres) of old wine. 1 Gallon was just musty old
        wine and the other Gallon smelt like it was
        vinegar and made you cough a bit if you inhaled
        it. Throwing caution to the wind I chucked it all
        in my boiler with some tails from a previous run
        and started to distill. My problem is that
        through the whole run : methy bit,heads,middle,
        tails, the spirit coming out tasted VERY sharp
        and smelt like vinegar. Previous runs have
        produced a lovely vodka from old wine. I was
        wondering if it was very difficult to seperate
        the element that causes the vinegar smell\taste.
        Any advice appreciated.


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Everything you'll ever need on one web page
        from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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      • Robert Stam
        Hi Adrian... Acetic acid (vinigar) is volatile and wholly distillable.It will come across during the distillation process. Rob ... From: Adrian Smith
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
          Hi Adrian...
           
          Acetic acid (vinigar) is volatile and wholly distillable.It will come across during the distillation process.
           
          Rob
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Adrian Smith [mailto:adriansmith1@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, 5 November 2002 6:55 a.m.
          To: distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Distillers] Acidic Alcohol??

          Sorry for the repost but I could do with an
          answer to this one, if anybody can help.??

          Thanks.


          Hi folks,
          Due to a lack of yeast at the moment, I
          decided to run some MORE old wine through my
          basic reflux still. I used 2 UK Gallons (9
          Litres) of old wine. 1 Gallon was just musty old
          wine and the other Gallon smelt like it was
          vinegar and made you cough a bit if you inhaled
          it. Throwing caution to the wind I chucked it all
          in my boiler with some tails from a previous run
          and started to distill. My problem is that
          through the whole run : methy bit,heads,middle,
          tails, the spirit coming out tasted VERY sharp
          and smelt like vinegar. Previous runs have
          produced a lovely vodka from old wine. I was
          wondering if it was very difficult to seperate
          the element that causes the vinegar smell\taste.
          Any advice appreciated.


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        • CornFed (Randy)
          once upon a time I stored a partial bottle of wine in the fridge and was surprised when it tasted like vinegar. A more experienced wine drinker told me a rule
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
            once upon a time I stored a partial bottle of wine in the fridge and
            was surprised when it tasted like vinegar. A more experienced wine
            drinker told me a rule of thumb. He said, 'when you store a little
            bit of wine in a big container, you will get vinegar everytime.' I
            dont know if this applys to your situation, but it might. If you
            start with vinegar, I believe you will just have distilled vinegar
            after the distilling process.


            --- In Distillers@y..., Adrian Smith <adriansmith1@y...> wrote:
            > Sorry for the repost but I could do with an
            > answer to this one, if anybody can help.??
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            >
            > Hi folks,
            > Due to a lack of yeast at the moment, I
            > decided to run some MORE old wine through my
            > basic reflux still. I used 2 UK Gallons (9
            > Litres) of old wine. 1 Gallon was just musty old
            > wine and the other Gallon smelt like it was
            > vinegar and made you cough a bit if you inhaled
            > it. Throwing caution to the wind I chucked it all
            > in my boiler with some tails from a previous run
            > and started to distill. My problem is that
            > through the whole run : methy bit,heads,middle,
            > tails, the spirit coming out tasted VERY sharp
            > and smelt like vinegar. Previous runs have
            > produced a lovely vodka from old wine. I was
            > wondering if it was very difficult to seperate
            > the element that causes the vinegar smell\taste.
            > Any advice appreciated.
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Everything you'll ever need on one web page
            > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
            > http://uk.my.yahoo.com
          • e_gregore
            Hi, If allowed to naturally progress, wine goes through two fermentations. The first one is an alcoholic fermentation (which everyone here should be famiiar
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
              Hi,
              If allowed to naturally progress, wine goes through two
              fermentations. The first one is an alcoholic fermentation (which
              everyone here should be famiiar with). The second, which follows
              almost immediately on its heels is an acetic fermentation. An acetic
              fermentation is the result of certain bacteria (usually air borne or
              carried by fruit flies) getting into the wine and converting the
              alcohol into acetic acid (vinegar.) The process of wine making (or
              fermentation for alcohol used in distilling spirits) stops this
              natural process half way through by dping everything necessary to
              eliminate the acetic bacteria in order that the alcoholic portion
              does not turn to acetic acid. This is the primary reason why your
              fermentation bucket has to be very clean and sealed from intrusion of
              air during and after the fermentation.

              The vinegar you buy at the supermarket, if brewed naturally (there is
              synthetic acetic/vinegar) is simply wine that has been allowed to go
              through acetic fermentation. White vinegar is this acidized wine
              after it has been distilled to get rid of the dark colour which comes
              from the grape.

              Just like wine (or a spirit makers wash) vinegar can be distilled
              almost in the same manner that alcohol can. The primary difference
              being that acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) has a boiling point very
              close to water so it is very hard to separate acetic acid from water
              in the same way that you separate alcohol from water in distillation.

              The dilution of vinegar is usually about 4-6% acetic acid and the
              rest is water. So it is a weak acid solution. But if left in metallic
              containers long enough it will eat the metal and produce acetates
              which are poisonous in large enough quantities.

              The other thing which will happen is if the wine you were distilling
              came into contact with good wine (still has alcohol) even a single
              drop, if it contains the bacteria responsible for acetic
              fermentation, will convert the good wine to vinegar given enough time.

              So I suggest you wash all you gear carefully :-)

              regards
              greg



              --- In Distillers@y..., Adrian Smith <adriansmith1@y...> wrote:
              > Sorry for the repost but I could do with an
              > answer to this one, if anybody can help.??
              >
              > Thanks.
            • Gil Hardwick
              ... No, vinegar flies not fruit flies. Fruit flies are larger and rarely appear indoors. They lay live maggots in ripening fruit on trees, and their pest
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
                At 01:31 AM 5/11/02 +0000, you wrote:

                Hi,
                If allowed to naturally progress, wine goes through two
                fermentations. The first one is an alcoholic fermentation (which
                everyone here should be famiiar with). The second, which follows
                almost immediately on its heels is an acetic fermentation. An acetic
                fermentation is the result of certain bacteria (usually air borne or
                carried by fruit flies) getting into the wine and converting the
                alcohol into acetic acid (vinegar.)

                No, vinegar flies not fruit flies.

                Fruit flies are larger and rarely appear indoors. They lay live maggots
                in ripening fruit on trees, and their pest status is on the fact that they
                ruin fruit.

                Vinegar flies are only half as big, about 2 mm max, and with quite a
                different wing shape. They are the ones you see hovering around inside
                the house.

                Another big problem with old wine is not vinegar but oxidisation. The
                same advice goes for wine used in cooking, if it is old or second rate
                tip it down the sink.

                Just coming out of lurking over the past few weeks . . . ;-)

                To introduce myself, I am primarily a home brewer and mead maker
                taking an interest in distilling since it is not unusual for me to find a
                batch of mean less to my liking and so distill the juice out of it so as
                not to waste it, also after joining the Margaret River Single Malt Club
                my interest in an uisge beatha . . .

                Hi to you Kiwis. Like you no doubt, there was a very great deal of
                moonshine distilled in these parts in the old days . . .

                Gil

                 * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                GIL HARDWICK
                ANTHROPOLOGIST & HISTORIAN
                Independent Research Scholar
                Ethnographer of Australian Landscapes
                PO Box 1009, MARGARET RIVER  WA  6285
                Phone: +61 8 9757 9124
                Mobile: 0421 363 452
                http://users.highway1.com.au/~gruagach

              • Mike Nixon
                Hi Gil ... nice to hear from you! Greetings from the other side of the Pond! I feel I know you already having visited your website (very interesting) and
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
                  Hi Gil ... nice to hear from you!  Greetings from the other side of the Pond!  I feel I know you already having visited your website (very interesting)  and read the 'limitations' you list for yourself:
                   
                  "Grew up beyond the Pale; full-on character, eclectic, quirky, nonconformist;
                  likely to get under your skin. Intolerant of pretence, affectation and laziness
                  in whatever people do. Inclined to batter people with facts rather than suffer
                  their warm fuzzy trendoid goobledegook."

                  These not limitations Sir ... I am proud to say that I share them :-))
                   
                  Mensa eh?   Hmmmm... I'd better watch the logic in my posts!
                   
                  Mike N
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 3:20 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Acidic Alcohol??

                  At 01:31 AM 5/11/02 +0000, you wrote:

                  Hi,
                  If allowed to naturally progress, wine goes through two
                  fermentations. The first one is an alcoholic fermentation (which
                  everyone here should be famiiar with). The second, which follows
                  almost immediately on its heels is an acetic fermentation. An acetic
                  fermentation is the result of certain bacteria (usually air borne or
                  carried by fruit flies) getting into the wine and converting the
                  alcohol into acetic acid (vinegar.)

                  No, vinegar flies not fruit flies.

                  Fruit flies are larger and rarely appear indoors. They lay live maggots
                  in ripening fruit on trees, and their pest status is on the fact that they
                  ruin fruit.

                  Vinegar flies are only half as big, about 2 mm max, and with quite a
                  different wing shape. They are the ones you see hovering around inside
                  the house.

                  Another big problem with old wine is not vinegar but oxidisation. The
                  same advice goes for wine used in cooking, if it is old or second rate
                  tip it down the sink.

                  Just coming out of lurking over the past few weeks . . . ;-)

                  To introduce myself, I am primarily a home brewer and mead maker
                  taking an interest in distilling since it is not unusual for me to find a
                  batch of mean less to my liking and so distill the juice out of it so as
                  not to waste it, also after joining the Margaret River Single Malt Club
                  my interest in an uisge beatha . . .

                  Hi to you Kiwis. Like you no doubt, there was a very great deal of
                  moonshine distilled in these parts in the old days . . .

                  Gil

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                  GIL HARDWICK
                  ANTHROPOLOGIST & HISTORIAN
                  Independent Research Scholar
                  Ethnographer of Australian Landscapes
                  PO Box 1009, MARGARET RIVER  WA  6285
                  Phone: +61 8 9757 9124
                  Mobile: 0421 363 452
                  http://users.highway1.com.au/~gruagach

                  To unsubscribe from this group send an email to  distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                • Gil Hardwick
                  ... Hi Mike, Slightly off-topic, but we could even be rellies. My great-grandmother was a Nixon, and the closest kin I have here in Margs are of that ilk. If
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
                    At 03:52 PM 5/11/02 +1300, you wrote:
                    Hi Gil ... nice to hear from you!  Greetings from the other side of the Pond!  I feel I know you already having visited your website (very interesting)  and read the 'limitations' you list for yourself:
                     
                    "Grew up beyond the Pale; full-on character, eclectic, quirky, nonconformist;
                    likely to get under your skin. Intolerant of pretence, affectation and laziness
                    in whatever people do. Inclined to batter people with facts rather than suffer
                    their warm fuzzy trendoid goobledegook."

                    These not limitations Sir ... I am proud to say that I share them :-))

                     
                    Mensa eh?   Hmmmm... I'd better watch the logic in my posts!
                     
                    Mike N
                     

                    Hi Mike,

                    Slightly off-topic, but we could even be rellies. My great-grandmother was
                    a Nixon, and the closest kin I have here in Margs are of that ilk.

                    If you have a look on my home page, at the very top left hand corner, is a
                    photo of her father William Millington Nixon, and immediately below are
                    a pair of dueling pistols he made by hand in 1841 and brought out to
                    Australia with him in 1855.  They are still in the family - one still fires after
                    all these years and the other easily restored according to another cousin
                    who is a gunsmith in Queensland.

                    As far as the temperament goes, that too runs in the family. A cousin died
                    a couple of months ago and we had a huge wake for him. Suffice that our
                    lot were the last to leave . . .

                    Old Border stock, kin to Clan Armstrong, and there are a lot of them here
                    in these parts too.

                    Good to see the old traditions being kept alive . . . ;-)

                    BTW, while I am thinking of that, a very good friend of mine related to the
                    Keenans and the Hennessies still has a copy of "The Complete Practical
                    Distiller", 1884, and has allowed me to photocopy it if anyone wants a look
                    at any of the old methods.

                    Maybe I can scan some of the pictures in it and post them sometime.

                    Gil
                  • peter_vcb
                    i have tasted many vile poitins that definitely had vinegar in them. i have seen how the farmers brew it and am not surprised at all! distilling vinegar seems
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 5, 2002
                      i have tasted many vile poitins that definitely had vinegar in them.
                      i have seen how the farmers brew it and am not surprised at all!
                      distilling vinegar seems a good way to clean your still though. you
                      can buy vinegar cultures online. some traditional chip shops near me
                      make their own vinegar which is very nice. also its legal to sell


                      --- In Distillers@y..., "e_gregore" <e_gregore@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      > If allowed to naturally progress, wine goes through two
                      > fermentations. The first one is an alcoholic fermentation (which
                      > everyone here should be famiiar with). The second, which follows
                      > almost immediately on its heels is an acetic fermentation. An
                      acetic
                      > fermentation is the result of certain bacteria (usually air borne
                      or
                      > carried by fruit flies) getting into the wine and converting the
                      > alcohol into acetic acid (vinegar.) The process of wine making (or
                      > fermentation for alcohol used in distilling spirits) stops this
                      > natural process half way through by dping everything necessary to
                      > eliminate the acetic bacteria in order that the alcoholic portion
                      > does not turn to acetic acid. This is the primary reason why your
                      > fermentation bucket has to be very clean and sealed from intrusion
                      of
                      > air during and after the fermentation.
                      >
                      > The vinegar you buy at the supermarket, if brewed naturally (there
                      is
                      > synthetic acetic/vinegar) is simply wine that has been allowed to
                      go
                      > through acetic fermentation. White vinegar is this acidized wine
                      > after it has been distilled to get rid of the dark colour which
                      comes
                      > from the grape.
                      >
                      > Just like wine (or a spirit makers wash) vinegar can be distilled
                      > almost in the same manner that alcohol can. The primary difference
                      > being that acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) has a boiling point
                      very
                      > close to water so it is very hard to separate acetic acid from
                      water
                      > in the same way that you separate alcohol from water in
                      distillation.
                      >
                      > The dilution of vinegar is usually about 4-6% acetic acid and the
                      > rest is water. So it is a weak acid solution. But if left in
                      metallic
                      > containers long enough it will eat the metal and produce acetates
                      > which are poisonous in large enough quantities.
                      >
                      > The other thing which will happen is if the wine you were
                      distilling
                      > came into contact with good wine (still has alcohol) even a single
                      > drop, if it contains the bacteria responsible for acetic
                      > fermentation, will convert the good wine to vinegar given enough
                      time.
                      >
                      > So I suggest you wash all you gear carefully :-)
                      >
                      > regards
                      > greg
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@y..., Adrian Smith <adriansmith1@y...> wrote:
                      > > Sorry for the repost but I could do with an
                      > > answer to this one, if anybody can help.??
                      > >
                      > > Thanks.
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