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RE: [Distillers] Re: Q2. Effect of Pressure?

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  • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
    ... Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum distillation is
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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      > --- In Distillers@y..., "wromgbutton" <evabolis@s...> wrote:
      > Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight
      > increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5
      > atmospheres, have on the balance of the column or the output rate.

      Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%

      Tony
    • George Wessel
      ... Hello Tony Just a though off the top of my head. We re entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our inside. So if my boiler was inside,
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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        > Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the
        > water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum
        > distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can
        > get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%
        >
        Hello Tony


        Just a though off the top of my head.

        We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
        inside. So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be about 20
        to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10 degrees
        today and even colder later on.

        I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of alcohol
        and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's say
        alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent. By
        using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the suction
        line outside to a condenser. The outside temp is below the vapor temp
        of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will remain
        outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The compressor,
        storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm. Only the
        condenser is outside. As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a level
        above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of water.
        Would it not separate the two. After a few hours or days would you
        not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe the
        two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea. I
        wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to come
        up with.



        Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes down?
        Just a thought
        George
      • motie_d
        ... about 20 ... degrees ... alcohol ... say ... My very basic experiment showed me that at 20 inches of vacuum, the alcohol will make a fog in the container
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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          --- In Distillers@y..., George Wessel <georgelola@n...> wrote:
          > >
          > Just a though off the top of my head.
          >
          > We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
          > inside. So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be
          about 20
          > to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10
          degrees
          > today and even colder later on.
          >
          > I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of
          alcohol
          > and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's
          say
          > alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent.

          My very basic experiment showed me that at 20 inches of vacuum, the
          alcohol will make a fog in the container at 85F (30C). That concluded
          my test at that time, because the old compressor I used wouldn't pull
          more vacuum than that, and I wanted to keep the temp down to a
          survivable level for Yeast in order to keep the ferment going. I
          wasn't after a vacuum distillation, per se. I wanted to ferment under
          vacum to try to make a continous process.

          By
          > using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the
          suction
          > line outside to a condenser.

          I envisioned using the vacuum storage tank as the condensor. The
          alcohol vapors should condense to liquid, and if further vacuum was
          needed, you would only be pumping CO2 through your compressor. The
          alcohol vapors should not have to pass through the compressor.

          The outside temp is below the vapor temp
          > of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will
          remain
          > outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The
          compressor,
          > storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm. Only the
          > condenser is outside. As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a
          level
          > above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of
          water.
          > Would it not separate the two. After a few hours or days would
          you
          > not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe
          the
          > two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea.
          I
          > wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to
          come
          > up with.
          >
          >
          >
          > Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes
          down?

          I think it would, or else increase the temp slightly. I was going to
          let the Yeast keep my alcohol concentration up, with the vacuum
          keeping the alcohol concentration from getting too high for east
          survivabilty.

          > Just a thought
          Keep those thoughts coming!
          > George
          Motie
        • George Wessel
          Hello Motie What your are trying to do is a little different than my original idea. I wish you the best of luck. To spell out my idea, I know where I can
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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            Hello Motie

            What your are trying to do is a little different than my original idea.
            I wish you the best of luck. To spell out my idea, I know where I can
            purchase two popane tanks, a 500 and a 1000 gallon tanks that were
            damaged in a grass fire. Plus I have 2 very good 1000 gallon popane
            tanks that could be used as vacuum storage that I don't use. The plan
            calls for cutting off one end on each of the damaged tanks. Welding
            them together to make a single 1500 gallon tanks. Cut out a access hole
            on top and make a clamp on lip to cover. Grain could be augured in
            through this hole as well a maled barley. Water would be pumped in to
            fill the tanks and then inject steam to cook the mash. After cooking
            circulate the wort through a heat exchanger to cool it down to yeast
            temp and then pitch the yeast. As I said it is getting colder here
            everyday so any radiator with a fan on it would work quite well. When
            fermented, apply vacuum, suck off any alcohol that happens to be in
            there. Drain the fermenter and then apply vacuum again this time to dry
            the spent grains so they will store longer. A removeable lid on the
            bottom ( same as the top) to dump out the dry spent grains. All DDG&S's
            would still be in the dry spent grains. Probably give the cooker a good
            cleaning and augur in more grain. Simple and easy, no fancy machinery,
            low initial cost. Boilers are simple to make as well and a condenser
            would also be very easy to build. Only real expense would be a vacuum
            pump capable of pulling the vacuum needed. Use a good yeast and add lots
            of it and I could turn this thing over once a week.

            A 1500 gallon fermenter with a 14% wort would produce 210 gallon of fuel
            alcohol. Us a higher alcohol yeast and get it up to 18% and I would
            have 270 gallon of 100 proof fuel with no drying needed. Find some
            gasoline with no water in it and I'm ready to make some gasohol.

            On the question of whether or not I would need to up the vacuum or heat
            as the percent alcohol in the wort comes down, consider this. A reflux
            still will heat up slowly until you start removing the fore shots. As
            they disminish the still will heat up until you start removing the
            ethanol. Their it will stall out until the ethanol has been removed
            (the more heat you apply the faster the evaporating ethanol will carry
            it off) When it runs out of ethanol it will start heating up as it
            starts to remove the higher alcohols. It will do this heat and stall
            thing until you start getting water. Would this not be the same for the
            vacuum still. If the vacuum and temp where held at the same levels would
            it not just stop producing ethanol. I would think that for fuel alcohol
            the foreshots and the tailings would burn just as good as the ethanol.
            If anyone knows any different I would appreciate hearing what you know.

            So, tell me what you think, am I completely off my rocker here
            George
          • Robert N
            Hi George, an idea that sprang to mind, why not give it a try on a small scale, either find a small vacuum pump and reservoir etc and give it a whirl. I know
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 3, 2002
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              Hi George, an idea that sprang to mind, why not give it a try on a small scale, either find a small vacuum pump and reservoir etc and give it a whirl. I know that you can even purchase hand vacuum pumps for checking automotive gauges. It seems like the theory is mostly correct and there isn’t anyone on the list or the others mentioned that has tried it before. We would all be interested in the results. I know it may cost $50 ~ $100 to try it out and of course the time to do it all, but it sure beats the hell out of spending up big on those tanks.

               

              Yours in Spirit!

               

               

              Robert

               

               

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: George Wessel [mailto:georgelola@...]
              Sent: Thursday, 3 October 2002 6:40 AM
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Q2. Effect of Pressure?

               

              > Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the
              > water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower %  Thats why vacuum
              > distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can
              > get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%
              >
              Hello Tony


              Just a though off the top of my head.

              We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
              inside.  So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be about 20
              to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10 degrees
              today and even colder later on.

              I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of alcohol
              and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's say
              alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent.  By
              using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the suction
              line outside to a condenser.  The outside temp is below the vapor temp
              of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will remain
              outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The compressor,
              storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm.  Only the
              condenser is outside.  As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a level
              above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of water.
                Would it not separate the two.  After a few hours or days would you
              not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe the
              two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea. I
              wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to come
              up with.



              Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes down?
              Just a thought
              George



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