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Re: [Distillers] Q2. Effect of Pressure?

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  • BOKAKOB
    in my opinion the pressure inside the column and the pot are already slightly over the pressure outside otherwise there would not be a flow at all. increasing
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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      in my opinion the pressure inside the column and the pot are already slightly over the pressure outside otherwise there would not be a flow at all. increasing this pressure would make the still run "faster" and require more cooling, longer column to achieve same purity as at "slow" speed. in other words what slow still may forgive the fast still will spit out as nasty fractions. yet in other words pressurized still must be much more thought out than the old good ways...

      Cheers, Alex...

       wromgbutton wrote:

      Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight
      increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5
      atmospheres, have on the balance of the column or the output rate.
      Again an idea bubbling.
      Thanks Edward 



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    • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
      ... Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum distillation is
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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        > --- In Distillers@y..., "wromgbutton" <evabolis@s...> wrote:
        > Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight
        > increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5
        > atmospheres, have on the balance of the column or the output rate.

        Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%

        Tony
      • George Wessel
        ... Hello Tony Just a though off the top of my head. We re entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our inside. So if my boiler was inside,
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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          > Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the
          > water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum
          > distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can
          > get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%
          >
          Hello Tony


          Just a though off the top of my head.

          We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
          inside. So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be about 20
          to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10 degrees
          today and even colder later on.

          I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of alcohol
          and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's say
          alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent. By
          using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the suction
          line outside to a condenser. The outside temp is below the vapor temp
          of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will remain
          outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The compressor,
          storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm. Only the
          condenser is outside. As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a level
          above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of water.
          Would it not separate the two. After a few hours or days would you
          not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe the
          two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea. I
          wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to come
          up with.



          Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes down?
          Just a thought
          George
        • motie_d
          ... about 20 ... degrees ... alcohol ... say ... My very basic experiment showed me that at 20 inches of vacuum, the alcohol will make a fog in the container
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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            --- In Distillers@y..., George Wessel <georgelola@n...> wrote:
            > >
            > Just a though off the top of my head.
            >
            > We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
            > inside. So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be
            about 20
            > to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10
            degrees
            > today and even colder later on.
            >
            > I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of
            alcohol
            > and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's
            say
            > alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent.

            My very basic experiment showed me that at 20 inches of vacuum, the
            alcohol will make a fog in the container at 85F (30C). That concluded
            my test at that time, because the old compressor I used wouldn't pull
            more vacuum than that, and I wanted to keep the temp down to a
            survivable level for Yeast in order to keep the ferment going. I
            wasn't after a vacuum distillation, per se. I wanted to ferment under
            vacum to try to make a continous process.

            By
            > using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the
            suction
            > line outside to a condenser.

            I envisioned using the vacuum storage tank as the condensor. The
            alcohol vapors should condense to liquid, and if further vacuum was
            needed, you would only be pumping CO2 through your compressor. The
            alcohol vapors should not have to pass through the compressor.

            The outside temp is below the vapor temp
            > of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will
            remain
            > outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The
            compressor,
            > storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm. Only the
            > condenser is outside. As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a
            level
            > above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of
            water.
            > Would it not separate the two. After a few hours or days would
            you
            > not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe
            the
            > two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea.
            I
            > wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to
            come
            > up with.
            >
            >
            >
            > Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes
            down?

            I think it would, or else increase the temp slightly. I was going to
            let the Yeast keep my alcohol concentration up, with the vacuum
            keeping the alcohol concentration from getting too high for east
            survivabilty.

            > Just a thought
            Keep those thoughts coming!
            > George
            Motie
          • George Wessel
            Hello Motie What your are trying to do is a little different than my original idea. I wish you the best of luck. To spell out my idea, I know where I can
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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              Hello Motie

              What your are trying to do is a little different than my original idea.
              I wish you the best of luck. To spell out my idea, I know where I can
              purchase two popane tanks, a 500 and a 1000 gallon tanks that were
              damaged in a grass fire. Plus I have 2 very good 1000 gallon popane
              tanks that could be used as vacuum storage that I don't use. The plan
              calls for cutting off one end on each of the damaged tanks. Welding
              them together to make a single 1500 gallon tanks. Cut out a access hole
              on top and make a clamp on lip to cover. Grain could be augured in
              through this hole as well a maled barley. Water would be pumped in to
              fill the tanks and then inject steam to cook the mash. After cooking
              circulate the wort through a heat exchanger to cool it down to yeast
              temp and then pitch the yeast. As I said it is getting colder here
              everyday so any radiator with a fan on it would work quite well. When
              fermented, apply vacuum, suck off any alcohol that happens to be in
              there. Drain the fermenter and then apply vacuum again this time to dry
              the spent grains so they will store longer. A removeable lid on the
              bottom ( same as the top) to dump out the dry spent grains. All DDG&S's
              would still be in the dry spent grains. Probably give the cooker a good
              cleaning and augur in more grain. Simple and easy, no fancy machinery,
              low initial cost. Boilers are simple to make as well and a condenser
              would also be very easy to build. Only real expense would be a vacuum
              pump capable of pulling the vacuum needed. Use a good yeast and add lots
              of it and I could turn this thing over once a week.

              A 1500 gallon fermenter with a 14% wort would produce 210 gallon of fuel
              alcohol. Us a higher alcohol yeast and get it up to 18% and I would
              have 270 gallon of 100 proof fuel with no drying needed. Find some
              gasoline with no water in it and I'm ready to make some gasohol.

              On the question of whether or not I would need to up the vacuum or heat
              as the percent alcohol in the wort comes down, consider this. A reflux
              still will heat up slowly until you start removing the fore shots. As
              they disminish the still will heat up until you start removing the
              ethanol. Their it will stall out until the ethanol has been removed
              (the more heat you apply the faster the evaporating ethanol will carry
              it off) When it runs out of ethanol it will start heating up as it
              starts to remove the higher alcohols. It will do this heat and stall
              thing until you start getting water. Would this not be the same for the
              vacuum still. If the vacuum and temp where held at the same levels would
              it not just stop producing ethanol. I would think that for fuel alcohol
              the foreshots and the tailings would burn just as good as the ethanol.
              If anyone knows any different I would appreciate hearing what you know.

              So, tell me what you think, am I completely off my rocker here
              George
            • Robert N
              Hi George, an idea that sprang to mind, why not give it a try on a small scale, either find a small vacuum pump and reservoir etc and give it a whirl. I know
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 3, 2002
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                Hi George, an idea that sprang to mind, why not give it a try on a small scale, either find a small vacuum pump and reservoir etc and give it a whirl. I know that you can even purchase hand vacuum pumps for checking automotive gauges. It seems like the theory is mostly correct and there isn’t anyone on the list or the others mentioned that has tried it before. We would all be interested in the results. I know it may cost $50 ~ $100 to try it out and of course the time to do it all, but it sure beats the hell out of spending up big on those tanks.

                 

                Yours in Spirit!

                 

                 

                Robert

                 

                 

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: George Wessel [mailto:georgelola@...]
                Sent: Thursday, 3 October 2002 6:40 AM
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Q2. Effect of Pressure?

                 

                > Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the
                > water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower %  Thats why vacuum
                > distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can
                > get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%
                >
                Hello Tony


                Just a though off the top of my head.

                We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
                inside.  So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be about 20
                to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10 degrees
                today and even colder later on.

                I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of alcohol
                and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's say
                alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent.  By
                using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the suction
                line outside to a condenser.  The outside temp is below the vapor temp
                of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will remain
                outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The compressor,
                storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm.  Only the
                condenser is outside.  As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a level
                above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of water.
                  Would it not separate the two.  After a few hours or days would you
                not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe the
                two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea. I
                wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to come
                up with.



                Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes down?
                Just a thought
                George



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