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Q2. Effect of Pressure?

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  • wromgbutton
    Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5 atmospheres, have on the
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 1, 2002
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      Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight
      increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5
      atmospheres, have on the balance of the column or the output rate.
      Again an idea bubbling.
      Thanks Edward
    • peter_vcb
      1.5atm is a lot of pressure and is very dangerous if you dont know what you are doing. cant help on the effects but dont mess around with this
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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        1.5atm is a lot of pressure and is very dangerous if you dont know
        what you are doing. cant help on the effects but dont mess around
        with this


        --- In Distillers@y..., "wromgbutton" <evabolis@s...> wrote:
        > Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight
        > increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5
        > atmospheres, have on the balance of the column or the output rate.
        > Again an idea bubbling.
        > Thanks Edward
      • BOKAKOB
        in my opinion the pressure inside the column and the pot are already slightly over the pressure outside otherwise there would not be a flow at all. increasing
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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          in my opinion the pressure inside the column and the pot are already slightly over the pressure outside otherwise there would not be a flow at all. increasing this pressure would make the still run "faster" and require more cooling, longer column to achieve same purity as at "slow" speed. in other words what slow still may forgive the fast still will spit out as nasty fractions. yet in other words pressurized still must be much more thought out than the old good ways...

          Cheers, Alex...

           wromgbutton wrote:

          Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight
          increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5
          atmospheres, have on the balance of the column or the output rate.
          Again an idea bubbling.
          Thanks Edward 



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        • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
          ... Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum distillation is
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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            > --- In Distillers@y..., "wromgbutton" <evabolis@s...> wrote:
            > Has anyone experimented with or have anything to say about a slight
            > increase in pressure of a still. What effect would, say 1.5
            > atmospheres, have on the balance of the column or the output rate.

            Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%

            Tony
          • George Wessel
            ... Hello Tony Just a though off the top of my head. We re entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our inside. So if my boiler was inside,
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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              > Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the
              > water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower % Thats why vacuum
              > distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can
              > get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%
              >
              Hello Tony


              Just a though off the top of my head.

              We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
              inside. So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be about 20
              to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10 degrees
              today and even colder later on.

              I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of alcohol
              and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's say
              alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent. By
              using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the suction
              line outside to a condenser. The outside temp is below the vapor temp
              of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will remain
              outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The compressor,
              storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm. Only the
              condenser is outside. As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a level
              above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of water.
              Would it not separate the two. After a few hours or days would you
              not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe the
              two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea. I
              wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to come
              up with.



              Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes down?
              Just a thought
              George
            • motie_d
              ... about 20 ... degrees ... alcohol ... say ... My very basic experiment showed me that at 20 inches of vacuum, the alcohol will make a fog in the container
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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                --- In Distillers@y..., George Wessel <georgelola@n...> wrote:
                > >
                > Just a though off the top of my head.
                >
                > We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
                > inside. So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be
                about 20
                > to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10
                degrees
                > today and even colder later on.
                >
                > I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of
                alcohol
                > and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's
                say
                > alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent.

                My very basic experiment showed me that at 20 inches of vacuum, the
                alcohol will make a fog in the container at 85F (30C). That concluded
                my test at that time, because the old compressor I used wouldn't pull
                more vacuum than that, and I wanted to keep the temp down to a
                survivable level for Yeast in order to keep the ferment going. I
                wasn't after a vacuum distillation, per se. I wanted to ferment under
                vacum to try to make a continous process.

                By
                > using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the
                suction
                > line outside to a condenser.

                I envisioned using the vacuum storage tank as the condensor. The
                alcohol vapors should condense to liquid, and if further vacuum was
                needed, you would only be pumping CO2 through your compressor. The
                alcohol vapors should not have to pass through the compressor.

                The outside temp is below the vapor temp
                > of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will
                remain
                > outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The
                compressor,
                > storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm. Only the
                > condenser is outside. As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a
                level
                > above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of
                water.
                > Would it not separate the two. After a few hours or days would
                you
                > not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe
                the
                > two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea.
                I
                > wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to
                come
                > up with.
                >
                >
                >
                > Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes
                down?

                I think it would, or else increase the temp slightly. I was going to
                let the Yeast keep my alcohol concentration up, with the vacuum
                keeping the alcohol concentration from getting too high for east
                survivabilty.

                > Just a thought
                Keep those thoughts coming!
                > George
                Motie
              • George Wessel
                Hello Motie What your are trying to do is a little different than my original idea. I wish you the best of luck. To spell out my idea, I know where I can
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 2, 2002
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                  Hello Motie

                  What your are trying to do is a little different than my original idea.
                  I wish you the best of luck. To spell out my idea, I know where I can
                  purchase two popane tanks, a 500 and a 1000 gallon tanks that were
                  damaged in a grass fire. Plus I have 2 very good 1000 gallon popane
                  tanks that could be used as vacuum storage that I don't use. The plan
                  calls for cutting off one end on each of the damaged tanks. Welding
                  them together to make a single 1500 gallon tanks. Cut out a access hole
                  on top and make a clamp on lip to cover. Grain could be augured in
                  through this hole as well a maled barley. Water would be pumped in to
                  fill the tanks and then inject steam to cook the mash. After cooking
                  circulate the wort through a heat exchanger to cool it down to yeast
                  temp and then pitch the yeast. As I said it is getting colder here
                  everyday so any radiator with a fan on it would work quite well. When
                  fermented, apply vacuum, suck off any alcohol that happens to be in
                  there. Drain the fermenter and then apply vacuum again this time to dry
                  the spent grains so they will store longer. A removeable lid on the
                  bottom ( same as the top) to dump out the dry spent grains. All DDG&S's
                  would still be in the dry spent grains. Probably give the cooker a good
                  cleaning and augur in more grain. Simple and easy, no fancy machinery,
                  low initial cost. Boilers are simple to make as well and a condenser
                  would also be very easy to build. Only real expense would be a vacuum
                  pump capable of pulling the vacuum needed. Use a good yeast and add lots
                  of it and I could turn this thing over once a week.

                  A 1500 gallon fermenter with a 14% wort would produce 210 gallon of fuel
                  alcohol. Us a higher alcohol yeast and get it up to 18% and I would
                  have 270 gallon of 100 proof fuel with no drying needed. Find some
                  gasoline with no water in it and I'm ready to make some gasohol.

                  On the question of whether or not I would need to up the vacuum or heat
                  as the percent alcohol in the wort comes down, consider this. A reflux
                  still will heat up slowly until you start removing the fore shots. As
                  they disminish the still will heat up until you start removing the
                  ethanol. Their it will stall out until the ethanol has been removed
                  (the more heat you apply the faster the evaporating ethanol will carry
                  it off) When it runs out of ethanol it will start heating up as it
                  starts to remove the higher alcohols. It will do this heat and stall
                  thing until you start getting water. Would this not be the same for the
                  vacuum still. If the vacuum and temp where held at the same levels would
                  it not just stop producing ethanol. I would think that for fuel alcohol
                  the foreshots and the tailings would burn just as good as the ethanol.
                  If anyone knows any different I would appreciate hearing what you know.

                  So, tell me what you think, am I completely off my rocker here
                  George
                • Robert N
                  Hi George, an idea that sprang to mind, why not give it a try on a small scale, either find a small vacuum pump and reservoir etc and give it a whirl. I know
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 3, 2002
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                    Hi George, an idea that sprang to mind, why not give it a try on a small scale, either find a small vacuum pump and reservoir etc and give it a whirl. I know that you can even purchase hand vacuum pumps for checking automotive gauges. It seems like the theory is mostly correct and there isn’t anyone on the list or the others mentioned that has tried it before. We would all be interested in the results. I know it may cost $50 ~ $100 to try it out and of course the time to do it all, but it sure beats the hell out of spending up big on those tanks.

                     

                    Yours in Spirit!

                     

                     

                    Robert

                     

                     

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: George Wessel [mailto:georgelola@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, 3 October 2002 6:40 AM
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Q2. Effect of Pressure?

                     

                    > Increased pressure will make it harder to seperate the ethanol from the
                    > water - the azeotrope will move down to a lower %  Thats why vacuum
                    > distillation is an advantage - it moves the azeotrope (the max % you can
                    > get when distilling) up from 96% to 100%
                    >
                    Hello Tony


                    Just a though off the top of my head.

                    We're entering fall here now so our outside temp is cooler than our
                    inside.  So if my boiler was inside, at room temp, it would be about 20
                    to 30 degrees Cent. If my condenser was outside it would be 10 degrees
                    today and even colder later on.

                    I do not know at what temp alcohol would boil in any mixture of alcohol
                    and water. So I'll have to just pull a number out of the air, let's say
                    alcohol will vaporize at 20 inches of vacuum at 20 degrees Cent.  By
                    using a storage tank, apply a vacuum to the boiler, lead the suction
                    line outside to a condenser.  The outside temp is below the vapor temp
                    of alcohol so the vapor would condense. The liquid alcohol will remain
                    outside at a cooler temp until it is time to collect it. The compressor,
                    storage tank and boiler are all inside where it is warm.  Only the
                    condenser is outside.  As long as the vacuum is maintaned at a level
                    above the vapor point of alcohol (At room temp) but below that of water.
                      Would it not separate the two.  After a few hours or days would you
                    not have water in your boiler and alcohol in your condenser. Maybe the
                    two vapor points would be to close to stay between, I have no idea. I
                    wouldn't think that some sort of vacuum control would be to hard to come
                    up with.



                    Would the vacuum have to be increase as the alcohol level comes down?
                    Just a thought
                    George



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