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VM still out of control!

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  • harisaki2004
    Hi Guys, I have a VM still as described in the VM project, without the liquid take off valve. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11189
    Message 1 of 15 , May 26, 2014
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      Hi Guys,

      I have a VM still as described in the VM project, without the liquid take off valve. 

      http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11189

      Home Distiller • View topic - VM Project


      This still has been run for a few years without modification. Occasionally while taking the heads, using VM, at one drip per second,(2mL per minute) the rate changes without me changing anything to about 16mL per minute..

      After 2 hours of taking heads, I had about 240 mL and then an hour later had 1.4 litres. 

      I guess some sort of siphoning of the vapour is happening, due to system design. 


      Has any one experienced this? Any thoughts please??

      regards

      Hari.


    • RLB
      That design is insane, so I will stick to pots and run it a few times. Robert ________________________________ From: ledaswan@iprimus.com.au [Distillers]
      Message 2 of 15 , May 26, 2014
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        That design is insane, so I will stick to pots and run it a few times.

        Robert



        From: "ledaswan@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 9:11 PM
        Subject: [Distillers] VM still out of control!

         
        Hi Guys,
        I have a VM still as described in the VM project, without the liquid take off valve. 
        http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11189

        This still has been run for a few years without modification. Occasionally while taking the heads, using VM, at one drip per second,(2mL per minute) the rate changes without me changing anything to about 16mL per minute..
        After 2 hours of taking heads, I had about 240 mL and then an hour later had 1.4 litres. 
        I guess some sort of siphoning of the vapour is happening, due to system design. 

        Has any one experienced this? Any thoughts please??
        regards
        Hari.



      • harisaki2004
        Could it be the packing is too tight. After the electrical power off, I removed the thermocouple at the base of the column and a stream of steam came out. If
        Message 3 of 15 , May 28, 2014
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          Could it be the packing is too tight. After the electrical power off, I removed the thermocouple at the base of the column and a stream of steam came out. If the column was "breathing" that should not happen?
          regards
          Hari.
        • Dirck Donson
          It could also be that the top is flooding. If the top were to flood there would be a release of liquid until the top was empty, flood again and release, empty,
          Message 4 of 15 , May 28, 2014
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            It could also be that the top is flooding. If the top were to flood there would be a release of liquid until the top was empty, flood again and release, empty, flood,...

            This could be caused by being packed too tight, too much power or you are super cooling your reflux. Or some combo.

            Super cooling would be returning reflux so cold it is unable to penetrate the column, because it is queering the column temp gradient. Reflux cooling water should be exiting the reflux coil between 130-140 deg F.


             



            On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:31 AM, "ledaswan@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


             
            Could it be the packing is too tight. After the electrical power off, I removed the thermocouple at the base of the column and a stream of steam came out. If the column was "breathing" that should not happen?
            regards
            Hari.


          • Zapata Vive
            Unless there us some peculiarity with the rig I would doubt super cooling. I don t remember the specifcs off the top of my head, but didn t the complete
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 5, 2014
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              Unless there us some peculiarity with the rig I would doubt super cooling. I don't remember the specifcs off the top of my head, but didn't the complete distiller have a whole section on what they called the "myth" of supercooling?

              On May 28, 2014 11:22 AM, "Dirck Donson dirckdonson@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              It could also be that the top is flooding. If the top were to flood there would be a release of liquid until the top was empty, flood again and release, empty, flood,...

              This could be caused by being packed too tight, too much power or you are super cooling your reflux. Or some combo.

              Super cooling would be returning reflux so cold it is unable to penetrate the column, because it is queering the column temp gradient. Reflux cooling water should be exiting the reflux coil between 130-140 deg F.


               



              On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:31 AM, "ledaswan@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


               
              Could it be the packing is too tight. After the electrical power off, I removed the thermocouple at the base of the column and a stream of steam came out. If the column was "breathing" that should not happen?
              regards
              Hari.


            • Dirck Donson
              Myth...well, I ve seen too cold a reflux dropped on top of hot packing to close to the take off, flash and stop any further penetration down the column. There
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 5, 2014
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                Myth...well, I've seen too cold a reflux dropped on top of hot packing to close to the take off, flash and stop any further penetration down the column. There are glass column videos on youtube of this!
                 



                On Thursday, June 5, 2014 2:23 PM, "Zapata Vive zapatavive@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                 
                Unless there us some peculiarity with the rig I would doubt super cooling. I don't remember the specifcs off the top of my head, but didn't the complete distiller have a whole section on what they called the "myth" of supercooling?
                On May 28, 2014 11:22 AM, "Dirck Donson dirckdonson@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                 
                It could also be that the top is flooding. If the top were to flood there would be a release of liquid until the top was empty, flood again and release, empty, flood,...

                This could be caused by being packed too tight, too much power or you are super cooling your reflux. Or some combo.

                Super cooling would be returning reflux so cold it is unable to penetrate the column, because it is queering the column temp gradient. Reflux cooling water should be exiting the reflux coil between 130-140 deg F.


                 



                On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:31 AM, "ledaswan@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                 
                Could it be the packing is too tight. After the electrical power off, I removed the thermocouple at the base of the column and a stream of steam came out. If the column was "breathing" that should not happen?
                regards
                Hari.




              • Zapata Vive
                But how would supercooling not happen for 2 hours, but show up in the 3rd? On Jun 5, 2014 3:50 PM, Dirck Donson dirckdonson@yahoo.com [Distillers]
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 5, 2014
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                  But how would supercooling not happen for 2 hours, but show up in the 3rd?

                  On Jun 5, 2014 3:50 PM, "Dirck Donson dirckdonson@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   

                  Myth...well, I've seen too cold a reflux dropped on top of hot packing to close to the take off, flash and stop any further penetration down the column. There are glass column videos on youtube of this!
                   



                  On Thursday, June 5, 2014 2:23 PM, "Zapata Vive zapatavive@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                   
                  Unless there us some peculiarity with the rig I would doubt super cooling. I don't remember the specifcs off the top of my head, but didn't the complete distiller have a whole section on what they called the "myth" of supercooling?
                  On May 28, 2014 11:22 AM, "Dirck Donson dirckdonson@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   
                  It could also be that the top is flooding. If the top were to flood there would be a release of liquid until the top was empty, flood again and release, empty, flood,...

                  This could be caused by being packed too tight, too much power or you are super cooling your reflux. Or some combo.

                  Super cooling would be returning reflux so cold it is unable to penetrate the column, because it is queering the column temp gradient. Reflux cooling water should be exiting the reflux coil between 130-140 deg F.


                   



                  On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:31 AM, "ledaswan@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                   
                  Could it be the packing is too tight. After the electrical power off, I removed the thermocouple at the base of the column and a stream of steam came out. If the column was "breathing" that should not happen?
                  regards
                  Hari.




                • harisaki2004
                  Thanks for your input guys. I got out the complete distiller (CD) and re read it. Yes there is a myth regarding supercooling and it is well explained that it
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 6, 2014
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                    Thanks for your input guys. 
                    I got out the complete distiller (CD) and re read it. Yes there is a myth regarding supercooling and it is well explained that it is just a myth.

                    Since the first post I have tried a few things. 
                    Firstly I remove all the s/s scrubbers. I then repacked the column, its 1.5metres 50mm diameter and according to the CD, I had way too much, that explains the pressure in the pot due to the amount of liquid collected on the packing.
                    I then ran the still and found that the siphoning still occurred. Even though the condenser is made from 25mm tube and is 800mm long I feel as though the column of condensing vapour has some effect on the output across the valve interface.
                    Quite often, with the valve just open, to get the output going I suck gently on the output pipe (8mm) to get the flow going. Flow will occur if I open the valve fully however. Does it require venting?

                    Also I wonder about the flow of the condensate from the reflux condenser flowing down the walls of the column. I have no flow guides/baffles under the condenser. What is the latest recommendations please.

                    Then there is the purity question. Later otherwise this post will become even more complex.
                    regards
                    Hari.
                  • Zapata Vive
                    When you ask if it needs a vent, surely you have the vent in the top of the xflow condenser, right?
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 6, 2014
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                      When you ask if it needs a vent, surely you have the vent in the top of the xflow condenser, right?

                    • harisaki2004
                      Sure, vent as per Harry s design. Any ideas on capturing the reflux and directing it onto the centre of the packing within the column?
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 7, 2014
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                        Sure, vent as per Harry's design. 
                        Any ideas on capturing the reflux and directing it onto the centre of the packing within the column?
                      • M L
                        Make a centering ring ... On Sat, 6/7/14, ledaswan@iprimus.com.au [Distillers] wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: VM still out
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 7, 2014
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                          Make a centering ring
                          --------------------------------------------
                          On Sat, 6/7/14, ledaswan@... [Distillers] <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: VM still out of control!
                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, June 7, 2014, 1:39 AM


                           









                          Sure, vent as per Harry's design. Any
                          ideas on capturing the reflux and directing it onto the
                          centre of the packing within the column?









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                        • Kevin Dubois
                          Install the cooling coil. This is what it is for. From: mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 3:39 AM To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 9, 2014
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                            Install the cooling coil. This is what it is for.
                             
                             
                            Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 3:39 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: VM still out of control!
                             
                             

                            Sure, vent as per Harry's design. 

                            Any ideas on capturing the reflux and directing it onto the centre of the packing within the column?
                          • Zapata Vive
                            Mine catches in a cup, and drips back into the center. Centering ring. Drip tab from collection point/plate. even just a coil of copper grounding wire
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 9, 2014
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                              Mine catches in a cup, and drips back into the center. 

                              Centering ring.  Drip tab from collection point/plate.  even just a "coil" of copper grounding wire wrapping the ID for one turn before heading back to the middle.  All should work.

                              Can't quite wrap my head around not centering causing the problem described, but I did think about it for 45 seconds at a stoplight today.  Maybe inspiration will strike in rush hour tomorrow...


                              On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 7:28 AM, 'Kevin Dubois' kevind@... [Distillers] <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                               

                              Install the cooling coil. This is what it is for.
                               
                               
                              Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 3:39 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: VM still out of control!
                               
                               

                              Sure, vent as per Harry's design. 

                              Any ideas on capturing the reflux and directing it onto the centre of the packing within the column?


                            • Adrian Morley
                              A good example is ...The Kegomax FM Reflux Still An all new reflux still design that is made from borosilicate laboratory grade glass, - See more at:
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 9, 2014
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                                A good example is ...The Kegomax FM Reflux Still An all new reflux still design that is made from borosilicate laboratory grade glass, - See more at: http://connorbreware.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=143#sthash.bmLzKIoe.dpuf


                                On Tuesday, 10 June 2014 11:18 AM, "Zapata Vive zapatavive@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                                 
                                Mine catches in a cup, and drips back into the center. 

                                Centering ring.  Drip tab from collection point/plate.  even just a "coil" of copper grounding wire wrapping the ID for one turn before heading back to the middle.  All should work.

                                Can't quite wrap my head around not centering causing the problem described, but I did think about it for 45 seconds at a stoplight today.  Maybe inspiration will strike in rush hour tomorrow...


                                On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 7:28 AM, 'Kevin Dubois' kevind@... [Distillers] <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                 
                                Install the cooling coil. This is what it is for.
                                 
                                 
                                Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 3:39 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: VM still out of control!
                                 
                                 
                                Sure, vent as per Harry's design. 
                                Any ideas on capturing the reflux and directing it onto the centre of the packing within the column?



                              • RLB
                                I have been reading about this problem for some time, and I have the perfect solution for your problems.  Toss the column, and turn it into a pot still.  Add
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jun 10, 2014
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                                  I have been reading about this problem for some time, and I have the perfect solution for your problems.  Toss the column, and turn it into a pot still.  Add a thumper and run it twice, and you will achieve almost the same results that you are looking for from a reflux still.  If something is that difficult for a process that is that simple, it isn't worth the effort unless it operates properly every time.

                                  Robert



                                  From: "Adrian Morley adxx85@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                  To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:04 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: VM still out of control!

                                   
                                  A good example is ...The Kegomax FM Reflux Still An all new reflux still design that is made from borosilicate laboratory grade glass, - See more at: http://connorbreware.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=143#sthash.bmLzKIoe.dpuf


                                  On Tuesday, 10 June 2014 11:18 AM, "Zapata Vive zapatavive@... [Distillers]" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                                   
                                  Mine catches in a cup, and drips back into the center. 

                                  Centering ring.  Drip tab from collection point/plate.  even just a "coil" of copper grounding wire wrapping the ID for one turn before heading back to the middle.  All should work.

                                  Can't quite wrap my head around not centering causing the problem described, but I did think about it for 45 seconds at a stoplight today.  Maybe inspiration will strike in rush hour tomorrow...


                                  On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 7:28 AM, 'Kevin Dubois' kevind@... [Distillers] <Distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                   
                                  Install the cooling coil. This is what it is for.
                                   
                                   
                                  Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 3:39 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: VM still out of control!
                                   
                                   
                                  Sure, vent as per Harry's design. 
                                  Any ideas on capturing the reflux and directing it onto the centre of the packing within the column?





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