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Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

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  • pint_o_shine
    I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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      I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

      I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

      I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.
    • W D Heimer
      Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear. What form of corn are you using? I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted barley for
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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        Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
        Regardz, Dave H.
         
         
         
        Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
        Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
         
         

        I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

        I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

        I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.

      • Jean Levac
        Hi Pinto, thanks for posting that video. It would be great if you could do a video following the fermentation. I can¹t wait to use your enzymes. -- Jean
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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          Hi Pinto, thanks for posting that video.  It would be great if you could do a video following the fermentation. I can’t wait to use your enzymes.

          --
          Jean Levac, BSc, The Ottawa Distillery Co.


          From: pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...>
          Reply-To: distillers <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Sunday, January 26, 2014 at 8:10 AM
          To: distillers <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

           

          I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

          I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

          I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.

        • Jean Levac
          You mention this might help for immersion heat? Why? thanks -- Jean Levac, BSc, The Ottawa Distillery Co. From: pint_o_shine
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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            You mention this might help for immersion heat?  Why?
            thanks
            --
            Jean Levac, BSc, The Ottawa Distillery Co.

            From: pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...>
            Reply-To: distillers <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Sunday, January 26, 2014 at 8:10 AM
            To: distillers <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

             

            I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

            I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

            I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.

          • Paul
            Thanks Pint, what a great video. Paul ________________________________   I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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              Thanks Pint, what a great video. Paul




               
              I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo


            • RLB
              I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules,
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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                I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.

                I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.

                I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.

                Robert


                From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

                 
                Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                Regardz, Dave H.
                 
                 
                 
                Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                 
                 
                I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

                I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

                I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.



              • jvb
                ...then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar? Isn t it the malt that does the conversion? On Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:59 PM, RLB
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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                  "...then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar?"

                  Isn't it the malt that does the conversion?


                  On Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:59 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                   
                  I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.

                  I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.

                  I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.

                  Robert


                  From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

                   
                  Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                  Regardz, Dave H.
                   
                   
                   
                  Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                  Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                   
                   
                  I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

                  I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

                  I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.





                • Allister Keay
                  Enzymes are the way to go, I use invertase enzymes fruit and sugar must, breaks down any sucrose to glucose and fructose within hrs which improves yeast
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 26, 2014
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                    Enzymes are the way to go, I use invertase enzymes fruit and sugar must, breaks down any sucrose to glucose and fructose within hrs which improves yeast growth.
                    The basic process you explain and demonstrate in your video is the same as making industrial glucose / non refined glucose. Does leaving the corner debris in during fermentation improve the flavour in the distillates? And if not why not pre-filter before fermentation?

                    On Jan 27, 2014 2:59 AM, "RLB" <last2blast@...> wrote:
                     

                    I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.

                    I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.

                    I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.

                    Robert


                    From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

                     
                    Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                    Regardz, Dave H.
                     
                     
                     
                    Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                    Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                     
                     
                    I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

                    I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

                    I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.



                  • pint_o_shine
                    Yes, I suppose it was like and advertisement in the same way that showing the manufacturer of the drill was. You wouldn t expect one to show you a process that
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 27, 2014
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                      Yes, I suppose it was like and advertisement in the same way that showing the manufacturer of the drill was. You wouldn't expect one to show you a process that works as good as any other method for mashing 100% corn and then withhold the name and type of ingredients that were used would you? You may purchase enzymes from any number of places and get the same results. I make very little in selling enzymes other than making them available at quantities small enough for the hobbyist.

                      As far as being able to do this process without these enzymes, you may do it using any companies enzymes you wish. I chose the ones I do because compared to everyone else's products, these are very easy to use and have remarkable results. Being able to use as little as 100 ppm of a substance that can not only prevent any viscosity, but also being able to convert all the starches to sugar, meaning no maltodextrin or maltotriose or any other unfermentable sugar behind as with brewing beer. The same enzymes are used to make low calorie beer.

                      Without enzymes you will burn the corn right onto the bottom of the pot using an open flame and set it like concrete in the pot as soon as it hits 167F or so. The top gelatinization temperature for corn is 185F. If you can't get it to there and hold it for an extended time your conversion will only have about 55% efficiency and most of that from the barley and little from the corn. This method has a greater than 90% efficiency.

                      You do realize I was using 1 1/2 lbs of corn per gallon. That is enough corn to set up 25 gallon of water too thick to move. If you watched another of my videos, First mashing at Limestone Branch, you would see that just 1 lb per gallon makes corn pudding.

                      No this process does not work well on cracked corn and no other mashing program will either. Mechanical destruction of the cell walls by grinding as fine as possible is required. The ethanol industry, of which I have done extensive work helping to improve efficiency, has well learned the value of extremely fine grind on corn. I can't take credit for this find though, ADM proved this many years ago with their wet milling and HFCS program.

                      As far as the finished fermentation is concerned, there is nothing left of the corn starch at all. All that is left is the hemicellulose pericarp, the germ, and the indestructible hard yellow ends of the corn. Some literature refers to those as the glassy starches. Therefore there is nothing left to solidify. The next time I teach this method at a micro distillery I will film the fermentation and the leftover waste.

                      As far as the flavor of the distilled spirits is concerned, It is lighter than a Bourbon mash lacking the rye/wheat and barley malt. It is heavier than UJSM because the corn is completely cooked yielding all the corn goodness. The enzymes, use in such small quantities add nothing to the flavor. If you have ever drank a low calorie beer you have already tasted them, raw and not distilled.

                      I have had hundreds of calls and emails wanting a demonstration of the least expensive method to make beverage ethanol and this is it. It can't be done any cheaper unless you live in a sugar cane field. And then without subsidies the labor would even make that more expensive. A month on Oahu consulting at Monalele Distillery taught me that. Agricole rum is expensive to make.

                      So the corn was $8.00 US for 50 lbs. The 15 lbs costed me $2.40. The enzymes together at my full retail rate is $1.62. Ignoring the amount of propane I used that was 1 full gallon at 95.4 abv for $4.02. The same results using sugar alone would have costed over $9.00 with current sugar prices. If you would have used corn and malted barley, even the cheap 2 row pale, the recipe for the same sugar content would have been 17 lbs of corn and 5 lbs of malted barley for the same yield. That is 80% corn and 20% malted barley. 12 gallons x 60 points / 32.6 points per gallon = 22 lbs total grain. Cost $5.47. The method of grain bill calculation is provided by
                      http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html
                      and http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-6.html

                      Corn $0.16 / lb at 50 lb quantities and 2 row pale $0.55 in 50 lb quantities.

                      I have presented the facts of this method and demonstrated its functionality.

                      This is not an advertizement or an endorsement for ayone or anything, just a fact:
                      The minimum amount of Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies products directly from the manufacturer is 25kg of each SEBStar and SEBamyl. That will set you back nearly $1000 US. But it is enough for you to convert 25,000 lbs of starch.

                      Thank you robert aka RLB for giving me points to talk about. I am laid up with a serious knee injury and this gives me something productive to do other than watch video of useless information.

                      Oh robert, I make $150 per hour to teach mashing, fermentation, distillation, sensory perception, process improvement, automation, supply chain solutions, proofing and bottling.

                      I have taught the ADI mashing demonstration, The ADI distilling class twice, a class at Six and Twenty distillery, Moonshine University rum distillation 3 times and many more classes. I have helped to train and get into production 34 distilleries in the last 3 years.

                      This video, that I gave to you freely, cost me about 30 hours of my time to produce, edit and publish. I asked nothing in return. I give this information freely.

                      Please don't bash my gift to the home distiller's community.

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.
                      >
                      > I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.
                      >
                      > I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.
                      >
                      > Robert
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of
                      > corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted
                      > barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared
                      > to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                      > Regardz, Dave H.
                      >  
                      >  
                      >  
                      > From: pint_o_shine
                      > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open
                      > flame
                      >  
                      >  
                      > I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to
                      > edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally
                      > not very entertaining. It can be viewed
                      > at
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo
                      >
                      > I formulated this recipe
                      > to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.
                      >
                      > I hope those who are struggling with bainmarie,
                      > steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.
                      >
                    • joe giffen
                      Hi Pint, I would not waste my breath on RLB. Keep up the good work.   Regards Joe On Monday, 27 January 2014, 15:51, pint_o_shine
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 27, 2014
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                        Hi Pint,
                        I would not waste my breath on RLB. Keep up the good work.
                         
                        Regards
                        Joe


                        On Monday, 27 January 2014, 15:51, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                         
                        Yes, I suppose it was like and advertisement in the same way that showing the manufacturer of the drill was. You wouldn't expect one to show you a process that works as good as any other method for mashing 100% corn and then withhold the name and type of ingredients that were used would you? You may purchase enzymes from any number of places and get the same results. I make very little in selling enzymes other than making them available at quantities small enough for the hobbyist.

                        As far as being able to do this process without these enzymes, you may do it using any companies enzymes you wish. I chose the ones I do because compared to everyone else's products, these are very easy to use and have remarkable results. Being able to use as little as 100 ppm of a substance that can not only prevent any viscosity, but also being able to convert all the starches to sugar, meaning no maltodextrin or maltotriose or any other unfermentable sugar behind as with brewing beer. The same enzymes are used to make low calorie beer.

                        Without enzymes you will burn the corn right onto the bottom of the pot using an open flame and set it like concrete in the pot as soon as it hits 167F or so. The top gelatinization temperature for corn is 185F. If you can't get it to there and hold it for an extended time your conversion will only have about 55% efficiency and most of that from the barley and little from the corn. This method has a greater than 90% efficiency.

                        You do realize I was using 1 1/2 lbs of corn per gallon. That is enough corn to set up 25 gallon of water too thick to move. If you watched another of my videos, First mashing at Limestone Branch, you would see that just 1 lb per gallon makes corn pudding.

                        No this process does not work well on cracked corn and no other mashing program will either. Mechanical destruction of the cell walls by grinding as fine as possible is required. The ethanol industry, of which I have done extensive work helping to improve efficiency, has well learned the value of extremely fine grind on corn. I can't take credit for this find though, ADM proved this many years ago with their wet milling and HFCS program.

                        As far as the finished fermentation is concerned, there is nothing left of the corn starch at all. All that is left is the hemicellulose pericarp, the germ, and the indestructible hard yellow ends of the corn. Some literature refers to those as the glassy starches. Therefore there is nothing left to solidify. The next time I teach this method at a micro distillery I will film the fermentation and the leftover waste.

                        As far as the flavor of the distilled spirits is concerned, It is lighter than a Bourbon mash lacking the rye/wheat and barley malt. It is heavier than UJSM because the corn is completely cooked yielding all the corn goodness. The enzymes, use in such small quantities add nothing to the flavor. If you have ever drank a low calorie beer you have already tasted them, raw and not distilled.

                        I have had hundreds of calls and emails wanting a demonstration of the least expensive method to make beverage ethanol and this is it. It can't be done any cheaper unless you live in a sugar cane field. And then without subsidies the labor would even make that more expensive. A month on Oahu consulting at Monalele Distillery taught me that. Agricole rum is expensive to make.

                        So the corn was $8.00 US for 50 lbs. The 15 lbs costed me $2.40. The enzymes together at my full retail rate is $1.62. Ignoring the amount of propane I used that was 1 full gallon at 95.4 abv for $4.02. The same results using sugar alone would have costed over $9.00 with current sugar prices. If you would have used corn and malted barley, even the cheap 2 row pale, the recipe for the same sugar content would have been 17 lbs of corn and 5 lbs of malted barley for the same yield. That is 80% corn and 20% malted barley. 12 gallons x 60 points / 32.6 points per gallon = 22 lbs total grain. Cost $5.47. The method of grain bill calculation is provided by
                        http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html
                        and http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-6.html

                        Corn $0.16 / lb at 50 lb quantities and 2 row pale $0.55 in 50 lb quantities.

                        I have presented the facts of this method and demonstrated its functionality.

                        This is not an advertizement or an endorsement for ayone or anything, just a fact:
                        The minimum amount of Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies products directly from the manufacturer is 25kg of each SEBStar and SEBamyl. That will set you back nearly $1000 US. But it is enough for you to convert 25,000 lbs of starch.

                        Thank you robert aka RLB for giving me points to talk about. I am laid up with a serious knee injury and this gives me something productive to do other than watch video of useless information.

                        Oh robert, I make $150 per hour to teach mashing, fermentation, distillation, sensory perception, process improvement, automation, supply chain solutions, proofing and bottling.

                        I have taught the ADI mashing demonstration, The ADI distilling class twice, a class at Six and Twenty distillery, Moonshine University rum distillation 3 times and many more classes. I have helped to train and get into production 34 distilleries in the last 3 years.

                        This video, that I gave to you freely, cost me about 30 hours of my time to produce, edit and publish. I asked nothing in return. I give this information freely.

                        Please don't bash my gift to the home distiller's community.

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.
                        >
                        > I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.
                        >
                        > I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.
                        >
                        > Robert
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        > Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of
                        > corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted
                        > barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared
                        > to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                        > Regardz, Dave H.
                        >  
                        >  
                        >  
                        > From: pint_o_shine
                        > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open
                        > flame
                        >  
                        >  
                        > I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to
                        > edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally
                        > not very entertaining. It can be viewed
                        > at
                        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo
                        >
                        > I formulated this recipe
                        > to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.
                        >
                        > I hope those who are struggling with bainmarie,
                        > steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.
                        >



                      • John
                        Well I ll just say TVM Pint. Haven t had time to view the clip yet, but it s about something I ve been interested  for sometime now. Yer costings are out the
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 27, 2014
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Well I'll just say TVM Pint.

                          Haven't had time to view the clip yet, but it's about something I've been interested  for sometime now.

                          Yer costings are out the windows for me as I'm not in the US, but knowing what I need to focus on is brilliant to know.

                          Again, TVM for the video as well as your other efforts. Very much appreciated,  by me at least (I'd like to think others get something from it as well).

                          May you recover quickly. ......

                          regards

                          John.


                          -------- Original message --------
                          From: pint_o_shine
                          Date:27/01/2014 15:51 (GMT+00:00)
                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Distillers] Re: Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

                           

                          Yes, I suppose it was like and advertisement in the same way that showing the manufacturer of the drill was. You wouldn't expect one to show you a process that works as good as any other method for mashing 100% corn and then withhold the name and type of ingredients that were used would you? You may purchase enzymes from any number of places and get the same results. I make very little in selling enzymes other than making them available at quantities small enough for the hobbyist.

                          As far as being able to do this process without these enzymes, you may do it using any companies enzymes you wish. I chose the ones I do because compared to everyone else's products, these are very easy to use and have remarkable results. Being able to use as little as 100 ppm of a substance that can not only prevent any viscosity, but also being able to convert all the starches to sugar, meaning no maltodextrin or maltotriose or any other unfermentable sugar behind as with brewing beer. The same enzymes are used to make low calorie beer.

                          Without enzymes you will burn the corn right onto the bottom of the pot using an open flame and set it like concrete in the pot as soon as it hits 167F or so. The top gelatinization temperature for corn is 185F. If you can't get it to there and hold it for an extended time your conversion will only have about 55% efficiency and most of that from the barley and little from the corn. This method has a greater than 90% efficiency.

                          You do realize I was using 1 1/2 lbs of corn per gallon. That is enough corn to set up 25 gallon of water too thick to move. If you watched another of my videos, First mashing at Limestone Branch, you would see that just 1 lb per gallon makes corn pudding.

                          No this process does not work well on cracked corn and no other mashing program will either. Mechanical destruction of the cell walls by grinding as fine as possible is required. The ethanol industry, of which I have done extensive work helping to improve efficiency, has well learned the value of extremely fine grind on corn. I can't take credit for this find though, ADM proved this many years ago with their wet milling and HFCS program.

                          As far as the finished fermentation is concerned, there is nothing left of the corn starch at all. All that is left is the hemicellulose pericarp, the germ, and the indestructible hard yellow ends of the corn. Some literature refers to those as the glassy starches. Therefore there is nothing left to solidify. The next time I teach this method at a micro distillery I will film the fermentation and the leftover waste.

                          As far as the flavor of the distilled spirits is concerned, It is lighter than a Bourbon mash lacking the rye/wheat and barley malt. It is heavier than UJSM because the corn is completely cooked yielding all the corn goodness. The enzymes, use in such small quantities add nothing to the flavor. If you have ever drank a low calorie beer you have already tasted them, raw and not distilled.

                          I have had hundreds of calls and emails wanting a demonstration of the least expensive method to make beverage ethanol and this is it. It can't be done any cheaper unless you live in a sugar cane field. And then without subsidies the labor would even make that more expensive. A month on Oahu consulting at Monalele Distillery taught me that. Agricole rum is expensive to make.

                          So the corn was $8.00 US for 50 lbs. The 15 lbs costed me $2.40. The enzymes together at my full retail rate is $1.62. Ignoring the amount of propane I used that was 1 full gallon at 95.4 abv for $4.02. The same results using sugar alone would have costed over $9.00 with current sugar prices. If you would have used corn and malted barley, even the cheap 2 row pale, the recipe for the same sugar content would have been 17 lbs of corn and 5 lbs of malted barley for the same yield. That is 80% corn and 20% malted barley. 12 gallons x 60 points / 32.6 points per gallon = 22 lbs total grain. Cost $5.47. The method of grain bill calculation is provided by
                          http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html
                          and http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-6.html

                          Corn $0.16 / lb at 50 lb quantities and 2 row pale $0.55 in 50 lb quantities.

                          I have presented the facts of this method and demonstrated its functionality.

                          This is not an advertizement or an endorsement for ayone or anything, just a fact:
                          The minimum amount of Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies products directly from the manufacturer is 25kg of each SEBStar and SEBamyl. That will set you back nearly $1000 US. But it is enough for you to convert 25,000 lbs of starch.

                          Thank you robert aka RLB for giving me points to talk about. I am laid up with a serious knee injury and this gives me something productive to do other than watch video of useless information.

                          Oh robert, I make $150 per hour to teach mashing, fermentation, distillation, sensory perception, process improvement, automation, supply chain solutions, proofing and bottling.

                          I have taught the ADI mashing demonstration, The ADI distilling class twice, a class at Six and Twenty distillery, Moonshine University rum distillation 3 times and many more classes. I have helped to train and get into production 34 distilleries in the last 3 years.

                          This video, that I gave to you freely, cost me about 30 hours of my time to produce, edit and publish. I asked nothing in return. I give this information freely.

                          Please don't bash my gift to the home distiller's community.

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.
                          >
                          > I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.
                          >
                          > I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.
                          >
                          > Robert
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          > Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of
                          > corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted
                          > barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared
                          > to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                          > Regardz, Dave H.
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          > From: pint_o_shine
                          > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open
                          > flame
                          >  
                          >  
                          > I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to
                          > edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally
                          > not very entertaining. It can be viewed
                          > at
                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo
                          >
                          > I formulated this recipe
                          > to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.
                          >
                          > I hope those who are struggling with bainmarie,
                          > steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.
                          >

                        • Robert Hubble
                          Robert, With the new Yahoo setup, I can t find the exact wording of the commercialization warning, but we moderators have some wiggle room on the issue if the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 27, 2014
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Robert,

                            With the new Yahoo setup, I can't find the exact wording of the commercialization warning, but we moderators have some wiggle room on the issue if the advertiser is a regular and worthy contributor to the forum, as opposed to someone who pops in to flack a product that may not be related.

                            Because many of us struggle with corn mashes, and because Pint is and has been very helpful in that matter, I welcome any information he can give us, whether or not he is a supplier of the materials. Did you notice there were two separate enzyme additions, at two different times and temperatures? That first high-temp addition is the one that is of most interest to corn whisky makers, who almost certainly won't consider Pint's video to be advertising.

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


                            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            From: last2blast@...
                            Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 16:59:21 -0800
                            Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

                             

                            I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.

                            I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.

                            I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.

                            Robert


                            From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame

                             
                            Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                            Regardz, Dave H.
                             
                             
                             
                            Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                            Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                             
                             
                            I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally not very entertaining. It can be viewed at
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

                            I formulated this recipe to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.

                            I hope those who are struggling with bain marie, steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.




                          • larryfitzpatrick2003
                            Hi pint, Thanks for the video. This answers a lingering question -- if the amylase enzymes are best applied in the order alpha then beta, then why is step
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 27, 2014
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Hi pint,


                              Thanks for the video. This answers a lingering question -- if the amylase enzymes are best applied in the order alpha then beta, then why is step mashing done with ascending temps that activate beta first, then alpha? The approach you demonstrate applies the amylases in the order that maximizes yield (hot to cooler).


                              This leads to a few questions (at least):


                              - What's different about this alpha amylase that it tolerates higher temperature? Specifically, when purchasing amylases, is the heat tolerance of the variant available typically?


                              - How do you lauter the mash?


                              - What's your take on the traditional approach to step-mashing (increasing the temp and applying beta before alpha amylase)? Not worth the trouble?


                              - Are there many variants of glucoamlyase, and does it eliminate the need for beta-amylase?


                              Thanks in advance,

                              Y'


                            • Adam Fordham
                              Nice of you to post that video. You are gracious with your time as always bo. Sent from Yahoo Mail
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 28, 2014
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Nice of you to post that video. You are gracious with your time as always bo.

                                Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


                                From: joe giffen <joegiffen@...>;
                                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                                Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 4:19:26 PM



                                Hi Pint,
                                I would not waste my breath on RLB. Keep up the good work.
                                 
                                Regards
                                Joe


                                On Monday, 27 January 2014, 15:51, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                 
                                Yes, I suppose it was like and advertisement in the same way that showing the manufacturer of the drill was. You wouldn't expect one to show you a process that works as good as any other method for mashing 100% corn and then withhold the name and type of ingredients that were used would you? You may purchase enzymes from any number of places and get the same results. I make very little in selling enzymes other than making them available at quantities small enough for the hobbyist.

                                As far as being able to do this process without these enzymes, you may do it using any companies enzymes you wish. I chose the ones I do because compared to everyone else's products, these are very easy to use and have remarkable results. Being able to use as little as 100 ppm of a substance that can not only prevent any viscosity, but also being able to convert all the starches to sugar, meaning no maltodextrin or maltotriose or any other unfermentable sugar behind as with brewing beer. The same enzymes are used to make low calorie beer.

                                Without enzymes you will burn the corn right onto the bottom of the pot using an open flame and set it like concrete in the pot as soon as it hits 167F or so. The top gelatinization temperature for corn is 185F. If you can't get it to there and hold it for an extended time your conversion will only have about 55% efficiency and most of that from the barley and little from the corn. This method has a greater than 90% efficiency.

                                You do realize I was using 1 1/2 lbs of corn per gallon. That is enough corn to set up 25 gallon of water too thick to move. If you watched another of my videos, First mashing at Limestone Branch, you would see that just 1 lb per gallon makes corn pudding.

                                No this process does not work well on cracked corn and no other mashing program will either. Mechanical destruction of the cell walls by grinding as fine as possible is required. The ethanol industry, of which I have done extensive work helping to improve efficiency, has well learned the value of extremely fine grind on corn. I can't take credit for this find though, ADM proved this many years ago with their wet milling and HFCS program.

                                As far as the finished fermentation is concerned, there is nothing left of the corn starch at all. All that is left is the hemicellulose pericarp, the germ, and the indestructible hard yellow ends of the corn. Some literature refers to those as the glassy starches. Therefore there is nothing left to solidify. The next time I teach this method at a micro distillery I will film the fermentation and the leftover waste.

                                As far as the flavor of the distilled spirits is concerned, It is lighter than a Bourbon mash lacking the rye/wheat and barley malt. It is heavier than UJSM because the corn is completely cooked yielding all the corn goodness. The enzymes, use in such small quantities add nothing to the flavor. If you have ever drank a low calorie beer you have already tasted them, raw and not distilled.

                                I have had hundreds of calls and emails wanting a demonstration of the least expensive method to make beverage ethanol and this is it. It can't be done any cheaper unless you live in a sugar cane field. And then without subsidies the labor would even make that more expensive. A month on Oahu consulting at Monalele Distillery taught me that. Agricole rum is expensive to make.

                                So the corn was $8.00 US for 50 lbs. The 15 lbs costed me $2.40. The enzymes together at my full retail rate is $1.62. Ignoring the amount of propane I used that was 1 full gallon at 95.4 abv for $4.02. The same results using sugar alone would have costed over $9.00 with current sugar prices. If you would have used corn and malted barley, even the cheap 2 row pale, the recipe for the same sugar content would have been 17 lbs of corn and 5 lbs of malted barley for the same yield. That is 80% corn and 20% malted barley. 12 gallons x 60 points / 32.6 points per gallon = 22 lbs total grain. Cost $5.47. The method of grain bill calculation is provided by
                                http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html
                                and http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-6.html

                                Corn $0.16 / lb at 50 lb quantities and 2 row pale $0.55 in 50 lb quantities.

                                I have presented the facts of this method and demonstrated its functionality.

                                This is not an advertizement or an endorsement for ayone or anything, just a fact:
                                The minimum amount of Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies products directly from the manufacturer is 25kg of each SEBStar and SEBamyl. That will set you back nearly $1000 US. But it is enough for you to convert 25,000 lbs of starch.

                                Thank you robert aka RLB for giving me points to talk about. I am laid up with a serious knee injury and this gives me something productive to do other than watch video of useless information.

                                Oh robert, I make $150 per hour to teach mashing, fermentation, distillation, sensory perception, process improvement, automation, supply chain solutions, proofing and bottling.

                                I have taught the ADI mashing demonstration, The ADI distilling class twice, a class at Six and Twenty distillery, Moonshine University rum distillation 3 times and many more classes. I have helped to train and get into production 34 distilleries in the last 3 years.

                                This video, that I gave to you freely, cost me about 30 hours of my time to produce, edit and publish. I asked nothing in return. I give this information freely.

                                Please don't bash my gift to the home distiller's community.

                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.
                                >
                                > I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.
                                >
                                > I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.
                                >
                                > Robert
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of
                                > corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted
                                > barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared
                                > to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                                > Regardz, Dave H.
                                >  
                                >  
                                >  
                                > From: pint_o_shine
                                > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open
                                > flame
                                >  
                                >  
                                > I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to
                                > edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally
                                > not very entertaining. It can be viewed
                                > at
                                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo
                                >
                                > I formulated this recipe
                                > to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.
                                >
                                > I hope those who are struggling with bainmarie,
                                > steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.
                                >





                              • Peggy Korth
                                All of us who need assistance are grateful to people like you who agree to keep us informed. Thank you, Pint.... Peggy ... Nice of you to post that video. You
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 28, 2014
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  All of us who need assistance are grateful to people like you who agree to keep us informed.  Thank you, Pint....

                                  Peggy


                                  Nice of you to post that video. You are gracious with your time as always bo.

                                  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


                                  From: joe giffen <joegiffen@...>;
                                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                                  Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 4:19:26 PM



                                  Hi Pint,
                                  I would not waste my breath on RLB. Keep up the good work.
                                   
                                  Regards
                                  Joe


                                  On Monday, 27 January 2014, 15:51, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  Yes, I suppose it was like and advertisement in the same way that showing the manufacturer of the drill was. You wouldn't expect one to show you a process that works as good as any other method for mashing 100% corn and then withhold the name and type of ingredients that were used would you? You may purchase enzymes from any number of places and get the same results. I make very little in selling enzymes other than making them available at quantities small enough for the hobbyist.

                                  As far as being able to do this process without these enzymes, you may do it using any companies enzymes you wish. I chose the ones I do because compared to everyone else's products, these are very easy to use and have remarkable results. Being able to use as little as 100 ppm of a substance that can not only prevent any viscosity, but also being able to convert all the starches to sugar, meaning no maltodextrin or maltotriose or any other unfermentable sugar behind as with brewing beer. The same enzymes are used to make low calorie beer.

                                  Without enzymes you will burn the corn right onto the bottom of the pot using an open flame and set it like concrete in the pot as soon as it hits 167F or so. The top gelatinization temperature for corn is 185F. If you can't get it to there and hold it for an extended time your conversion will only have about 55% efficiency and most of that from the barley and little from the corn. This method has a greater than 90% efficiency.

                                  You do realize I was using 1 1/2 lbs of corn per gallon. That is enough corn to set up 25 gallon of water too thick to move. If you watched another of my videos, First mashing at Limestone Branch, you would see that just 1 lb per gallon makes corn pudding.

                                  No this process does not work well on cracked corn and no other mashing program will either. Mechanical destruction of the cell walls by grinding as fine as possible is required. The ethanol industry, of which I have done extensive work helping to improve efficiency, has well learned the value of extremely fine grind on corn. I can't take credit for this find though, ADM proved this many years ago with their wet milling and HFCS program.

                                  As far as the finished fermentation is concerned, there is nothing left of the corn starch at all. All that is left is the hemicellulose pericarp, the germ, and the indestructible hard yellow ends of the corn. Some literature refers to those as the glassy starches. Therefore there is nothing left to solidify. The next time I teach this method at a micro distillery I will film the fermentation and the leftover waste.

                                  As far as the flavor of the distilled spirits is concerned, It is lighter than a Bourbon mash lacking the rye/wheat and barley malt. It is heavier than UJSM because the corn is completely cooked yielding all the corn goodness. The enzymes, use in such small quantities add nothing to the flavor. If you have ever drank a low calorie beer you have already tasted them, raw and not distilled.

                                  I have had hundreds of calls and emails wanting a demonstration of the least expensive method to make beverage ethanol and this is it. It can't be done any cheaper unless you live in a sugar cane field. And then without subsidies the labor would even make that more expensive. A month on Oahu consulting at Monalele Distillery taught me that. Agricole rum is expensive to make.

                                  So the corn was $8.00 US for 50 lbs. The 15 lbs costed me $2.40. The enzymes together at my full retail rate is $1.62. Ignoring the amount of propane I used that was 1 full gallon at 95.4 abv for $4.02. The same results using sugar alone would have costed over $9.00 with current sugar prices. If you would have used corn and malted barley, even the cheap 2 row pale, the recipe for the same sugar content would have been 17 lbs of corn and 5 lbs of malted barley for the same yield. That is 80% corn and 20% malted barley. 12 gallons x 60 points / 32.6 points per gallon = 22 lbs total grain. Cost $5.47. The method of grain bill calculation is provided by
                                  http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html
                                  and http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-6.html

                                  Corn $0.16 / lb at 50 lb quantities and 2 row pale $0.55 in 50 lb quantities.

                                  I have presented the facts of this method and demonstrated its functionality.

                                  This is not an advertizement or an endorsement for ayone or anything, just a fact:
                                  The minimum amount of Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies products directly from the manufacturer is 25kg of each SEBStar and SEBamyl. That will set you back nearly $1000 US. But it is enough for you to convert 25,000 lbs of starch.

                                  Thank you robert aka RLB for giving me points to talk about. I am laid up with a serious knee injury and this gives me something productive to do other than watch video of useless information.

                                  Oh robert, I make $150 per hour to teach mashing, fermentation, distillation, sensory perception, process improvement, automation, supply chain solutions, proofing and bottling.

                                  I have taught the ADI mashing demonstration, The ADI distilling class twice, a class at Six and Twenty distillery, Moonshine University rum distillation 3 times and many more classes. I have helped to train and get into production 34 distilleries in the last 3 years.

                                  This video, that I gave to you freely, cost me about 30 hours of my time to produce, edit and publish. I asked nothing in return. I give this information freely.

                                  Please don't bash my gift to the home distiller's community.

                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I thought there were rules about advertising products on these groups?  Video was some what interesting in that it breaks all of the so called standard rules, but it was still a product advertisement.
                                  >
                                  > I will have to play around with your process once my workshop is up and running to see if it can be done without your products.  With 15 lbs. of corn, I would normally place that in 5 or 6 gal bucket, but you used 10 gals. of water.  I noticed that the corn looked finely ground rather than cracked, and I want to see if the drill and blade is actually allowing it to be heated up to 190 F rather than those products.  You still had to reduce the heat to the standard 150 F to add your enzymes   It was also noted that the corn stayed in your bucket during fermentation, so after a week did you need a jack hammer to remove that corn?  I am sorry, but your advertisement video actually raised more questions on its validity then it actually answered.
                                  >
                                  > I will stick to the normal 155 F for at least an hour, and then add my malt after the starches have been converted to sugar.  Once my malting operating is moved out of my apartment, I will use the juice off my malts to produce my own malting enzymes.
                                  >
                                  > Robert
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: W D Heimer <dheimer@...>
                                  > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:27 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open flame
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  > Yo’ Pint, Informative video, albeit a bit hard to hear.  What form of
                                  > corn are you using?  I use cracked corn from a local mill and 6 row malted
                                  > barley for whiskey.  How does the enzyme conversion whiskey taste compared
                                  > to say a malted barley/corn mash?  Thanx for the vid.
                                  > Regardz, Dave H.
                                  >  
                                  >  
                                  >  
                                  > From: pint_o_shine
                                  > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:10 AM
                                  > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Distillers] Video showing mashing 100% corn over an open
                                  > flame
                                  >  
                                  >  
                                  > I filmed this almost a year ago and due to a knee injury have been able to
                                  > edit it all together. It is purely technical, the audio sucks, and is generally
                                  > not very entertaining. It can be viewed
                                  > at
                                  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo
                                  >
                                  > I formulated this recipe
                                  > to be 1.055 OG and hit 1.060. It fermented nearly to dry because of no unfermentable sugars.
                                  >
                                  > I hope those who are struggling with bainmarie,
                                  > steam heat, immersion heaters for cooking grain find this method helpful.
                                  >





                                • pint_o_shine
                                  I m using the rich text editor so that there can be colors to the text. If it looks like garbage in the email this is why and may need to be viewed with a
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 28, 2014
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                                    I'm using the rich text editor so that there can be colors to the text. If it looks like garbage in the email this is why and may need to be viewed with a browser.


                                    if the amylase enzymes are best applied in the order alpha then beta, then why is step mashing done with ascending temps that activate beta first, then alpha? The approach you demonstrate applies the amylases in the order that maximizes yield (hot to cooler). 

                                    Activation of enzymes is a misconception. Adding water activates the enzymes. Controlling the temperature is a matter of optimizing where they are extremely active. With beer, specifically barley malt, the rising step program of mashing has to do with breaking down parts of the grain. You would rest at 98 -113°F for 20 minutes to help the gummyness due to the beta-glucan. This is not commonly done but it allows the beta-glucananse to remove the tiny amount of beta-glucan from under modified barley malt.  If using a lot of under modified malt you might also do a protein rest at 120 - 130°F to reduce cloudiness, because at this temperature the protein become water soluble and the enzyme protiase can only work on proteins in solution. The last temperature needed is just higher than 154°F because that is where the starch becomes hydrated. Before that it is just a hard particle similar to stone. Once the gelatinization temperature is reached, three things happen. picture starch as a very large tree limb that has fallen in yard. The hot water takes care of the major pieces sort of like a chainsaw. left behind are smaller branched limbs and the alpha amylase cuts the branches into straight limbs. The beta amylase cuts the straight pieces into smaller straight pieces. There are always forked pieces left over because leaving the temperature optimal for the alpha for very long makes a lot of pieces the weaker beta can't break. So the brewers use a compromise between sugar conversion due to beta or mouth feel due to alpha by controlling the time at the optimal temperature for each.  If you raise the temperature of the wort higher than 165°F all the enzymes are destroyed.

                                    What I am doing is a cereal mash similar to making grits or semolina. Both have to be completely cooked before any enzyme can act on the starches. In the case of corn, it is very high in amylopectin which is a very branched and hard to gelatinize starch. depending on the size of the starch, which varies a large amount, the temperature of gelatinization varies from 165 - 185°F. Most people forget when making gravy with corn starch, it doesn't really thicken until just before boiling. Once the hot water gelatinizes the starch the alpha amylase can break it down into smaller chunks that are not able to tie up water and for viscous gel. The beta would immediately attack the dextrin as soon as it was created. Having no beta in the mix with the exo-enzymes, the alpha is able to chew those starches apart until there are no branches left.

                                    What's different about this alpha amylase that it tolerates higher temperature? Specifically, when purchasing amylases, is the heat tolerance of the variant available typically? 

                                    These enzymes are extracted from a growth medium, usually wheat bran, via using salts that control the ph. By varying the ph of the solution the proteins can be concentrated and extracted. The enzymes are excreted by molds and bacteria. It is produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Bacillus licheniformis. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher Certified and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages.There are many different alpha-amylase enzymes available. Each has characteristic that do different things. There are medium temperature ones for improving beer, because the high temperature one is not needed. This particular one has the ability to withstand the high temperatures of corn gelatinization without becoming denatured. It can be denatured at 195°F and over and by acidifying the mash to below 5.0 for an short time.

                                    How do you lauter the mash? 

                                    I don't. Lautering is for making beer. This mash is for making grain whiskey. In beer making you care about clarity, sanitation and filtering. With beer it has to have a shelf life and be pleasing to look at. For whiskey making, the mash undergoes a vigorous primary fermentation until it attenuates most of the sugar and the it gets destroyed by distillation. Whiskey making and beer making have little in common other than using grain to make sugar.

                                    I was asked how this process makes separating the grain and liquid easier. Once this mash is completely fermented it can be racked. The solids settle quite nicely. The remaining solids can be separated simply by straining with agitation. To strain you could use this. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=37439 It does require bouncing though and is quite quick.

                                    What's your take on the traditional approach to step-mashing (increasing the temp and applying beta before alpha amylase)? Not worth the trouble? 

                                    It wouldn't work. The starch has to be gelled first. The enzymes struggle with the hard ungelatized starch. At 75°F it would take a week for all the starch to be converted. That is why there is so much left over from malting. The enzymes are there and the moisture is there. The starch remains because the starch at that temperature is very slow in the conversion to sugar. That is why malting works to produce enzymes but affect the starch content by a small amount. Add heat and the process accelerates hundreds of times. There still remains the fact that the alpha has the job of breaking the initial branches because beta only works on the ends of the straight chains.

                                    Are there many variants of glucoamlyase, and does it eliminate the need for beta-amylase?  

                                    The Japanese, Chinese and Koreans have been centuries ahead in utilizing mold for fermenting alcohol. SEBamyl-GL is an enzyme produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Aspergillus niger. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher, non-synthetic and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase enzyme. It acts to hydrolyze the alpha-D-1,4-glycosidic bonds on the non-reducing end of liquefied starch. In addition, SEBamy-GL has side alpha-D-1,6 glycosidic activity to increase hydrolysis of starch and amylopectin branch points. The prolonged action of SEBamyl-GL produces large amounts of glucose.
                                    Most familiar with sake brewing would interject here and say " But sake is made with koji which is Aspergillus Oryzae" this is very true. The A. Niger is a very large family with hundreds of strains. Some of the strains convert sucrose to citric acid others convert dextrin to glucose. The SEBamyl GL could be used alone but it also takes days to make glucose without the help of the alpha amylase. 

                                    The gluco-amylase completely replaces beta-amylase for whiskey making. My goal is to make as much sugar as possible from grain. Gluco-amylase may vary in strength from different companies but it is all basically the same in the final result.

                                    My friend Ian Smiley asked me a few days ago why I preferred the Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies products versus Deerland, Novozymes, or Kerry. The willingness for the company to supply one who is not an owner of a distillery or brewery had a lot to do with it. Sometimes availability trumps cost or productivity. If it isn't available to me then it really doesn't matter.

                                     


                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi pint,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the video. This answers a lingering question -- if the amylase enzymes are best applied in the order alpha then beta, then why is step mashing done with ascending temps that activate beta first, then alpha? The approach you demonstrate applies the amylases in the order that maximizes yield (hot to cooler).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > This leads to a few questions (at least):
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > - What's different about this alpha amylase that it tolerates higher temperature? Specifically, when purchasing amylases, is the heat tolerance of the variant available typically?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > - How do you lauter the mash?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > - What's your take on the traditional approach to step-mashing (increasing the temp and applying beta before alpha amylase)? Not worth the trouble?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > - Are there many variants of glucoamlyase, and does it eliminate the need for beta-amylase?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks in advance,
                                    > Y'
                                    >
                                  • Allister Keay
                                    I use novozyme and find it a good product. On Jan 28, 2014 6:05 PM, pint_o_shine ... I use novozyme and find it a good
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 28, 2014
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      I use novozyme and find it a good product.

                                      On Jan 28, 2014 6:05 PM, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      I'm using the rich text editor so that there can be colors to the text. If it looks like garbage in the email this is why and may need to be viewed with a browser.



                                      if the amylase enzymes are best applied in the order alpha then beta, then why is step mashing done with ascending temps that activate beta first, then alpha? The approach you demonstrate applies the amylases in the order that maximizes yield (hot to cooler). 

                                      Activation of enzymes is a misconception. Adding water activates the enzymes. Controlling the temperature is a matter of optimizing where they are extremely active. With beer, specifically barley malt, the rising step program of mashing has to do with breaking down parts of the grain. You would rest at 98 -113°F for 20 minutes to help the gummyness due to the beta-glucan. This is not commonly done but it allows the beta-glucananse to remove the tiny amount of beta-glucan from under modified barley malt.  If using a lot of under modified malt you might also do a protein rest at 120 - 130°F to reduce cloudiness, because at this temperature the protein become water soluble and the enzyme protiase can only work on proteins in solution. The last temperature needed is just higher than 154°F because that is where the starch becomes hydrated. Before that it is just a hard particle similar to stone. Once the gelatinization temperature is reached, three things happen. picture starch as a very large tree limb that has fallen in yard. The hot water takes care of the major pieces sort of like a chainsaw. left behind are smaller branched limbs and the alpha amylase cuts the branches into straight limbs. The beta amylase cuts the straight pieces into smaller straight pieces. There are always forked pieces left over because leaving the temperature optimal for the alpha for very long makes a lot of pieces the weaker beta can't break. So the brewers use a compromise between sugar conversion due to beta or mouth feel due to alpha by controlling the time at the optimal temperature for each.  If you raise the temperature of the wort higher than 165°F all the enzymes are destroyed.

                                      What I am doing is a cereal mash similar to making grits or semolina. Both have to be completely cooked before any enzyme can act on the starches. In the case of corn, it is very high in amylopectin which is a very branched and hard to gelatinize starch. depending on the size of the starch, which varies a large amount, the temperature of gelatinization varies from 165 - 185°F. Most people forget when making gravy with corn starch, it doesn't really thicken until just before boiling. Once the hot water gelatinizes the starch the alpha amylase can break it down into smaller chunks that are not able to tie up water and for viscous gel. The beta would immediately attack the dextrin as soon as it was created. Having no beta in the mix with the exo-enzymes, the alpha is able to chew those starches apart until there are no branches left.

                                      What's different about this alpha amylase that it tolerates higher temperature? Specifically, when purchasing amylases, is the heat tolerance of the variant available typically? 

                                      These enzymes are extracted from a growth medium, usually wheat bran, via using salts that control the ph. By varying the ph of the solution the proteins can be concentrated and extracted. The enzymes are excreted by molds and bacteria. It is produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Bacillus licheniformis. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher Certified and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages.There are many different alpha-amylase enzymes available. Each has characteristic that do different things. There are medium temperature ones for improving beer, because the high temperature one is not needed. This particular one has the ability to withstand the high temperatures of corn gelatinization without becoming denatured. It can be denatured at 195°F and over and by acidifying the mash to below 5.0 for an short time.

                                      How do you lauter the mash? 

                                      I don't. Lautering is for making beer. This mash is for making grain whiskey. In beer making you care about clarity, sanitation and filtering. With beer it has to have a shelf life and be pleasing to look at. For whiskey making, the mash undergoes a vigorous primary fermentation until it attenuates most of the sugar and the it gets destroyed by distillation. Whiskey making and beer making have little in common other than using grain to make sugar.

                                      I was asked how this process makes separating the grain and liquid easier. Once this mash is completely fermented it can be racked. The solids settle quite nicely. The remaining solids can be separated simply by straining with agitation. To strain you could use this. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=37439 It does require bouncing though and is quite quick.

                                      What's your take on the traditional approach to step-mashing (increasing the temp and applying beta before alpha amylase)? Not worth the trouble? 

                                      It wouldn't work. The starch has to be gelled first. The enzymes struggle with the hard ungelatized starch. At 75°F it would take a week for all the starch to be converted. That is why there is so much left over from malting. The enzymes are there and the moisture is there. The starch remains because the starch at that temperature is very slow in the conversion to sugar. That is why malting works to produce enzymes but affect the starch content by a small amount. Add heat and the process accelerates hundreds of times. There still remains the fact that the alpha has the job of breaking the initial branches because beta only works on the ends of the straight chains.

                                      Are there many variants of glucoamlyase, and does it eliminate the need for beta-amylase?  

                                      The Japanese, Chinese and Koreans have been centuries ahead in utilizing mold for fermenting alcohol. SEBamyl-GL is an enzyme produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Aspergillus niger. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher, non-synthetic and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase enzyme. It acts to hydrolyze the alpha-D-1,4-glycosidic bonds on the non-reducing end of liquefied starch. In addition, SEBamy-GL has side alpha-D-1,6 glycosidic activity to increase hydrolysis of starch and amylopectin branch points. The prolonged action of SEBamyl-GL produces large amounts of glucose.
                                      Most familiar with sake brewing would interject here and say " But sake is made with koji which is Aspergillus Oryzae" this is very true. The A. Niger is a very large family with hundreds of strains. Some of the strains convert sucrose to citric acid others convert dextrin to glucose. The SEBamyl GL could be used alone but it also takes days to make glucose without the help of the alpha amylase. 

                                      The gluco-amylase completely replaces beta-amylase for whiskey making. My goal is to make as much sugar as possible from grain. Gluco-amylase may vary in strength from different companies but it is all basically the same in the final result.

                                      My friend Ian Smiley asked me a few days ago why I preferred the Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies products versus Deerland, Novozymes, or Kerry. The willingness for the company to supply one who is not an owner of a distillery or brewery had a lot to do with it. Sometimes availability trumps cost or productivity. If it isn't available to me then it really doesn't matter.

                                       


                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi pint,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for the video. This answers a lingering question -- if the amylase enzymes are best applied in the order alpha then beta, then why is step mashing done with ascending temps that activate beta first, then alpha? The approach you demonstrate applies the amylases in the order that maximizes yield (hot to cooler).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This leads to a few questions (at least):
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > - What's different about this alpha amylase that it tolerates higher temperature? Specifically, when purchasing amylases, is the heat tolerance of the variant available typically?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > - How do you lauter the mash?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > - What's your take on the traditional approach to step-mashing (increasing the temp and applying beta before alpha amylase)? Not worth the trouble?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > - Are there many variants of glucoamlyase, and does it eliminate the need for beta-amylase?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks in advance,
                                      > Y'
                                      >
                                    • Bob
                                      In your reply you talked about wet mashing. I am assuming you mean let the corn soak and begin to sprout and then run through a grinder. I am wondering if my
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jan 28, 2014
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                                        In your reply you talked about wet mashing. I am assuming you mean let the corn soak and begin to sprout and then run through a grinder. I am wondering if my Corona mill would do well with the wet? I am thinking it would. I saw some guys making tortilla masa that way. They soaked the corn and calcium carbonate over night then raised the temp to 140 F for about 6 hours then ground it through a stone grinder. Next they put it in the tortilla machine as a real thick paste. Made a great tortilla.
                                        I did learn some from your post and will try some of the high temp enzymes and glad to have a source. I can go down around Hillsboro when it is time to harvest corn and fill the back of a pick up for around 20 dollars. Just a note – the chickens and goats like everything left over after fermenting. The germ is high in vitamin E.
                                        bob c
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