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Re: [Distillers] Re: My take on starting a new simple sour corn mash

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  • Eddie Hoskin
    Beer mashes are ideally at a pH of 5.2.  But much lower than that, aye, and you ll interfere with the conversion. Radical Ed Sent from Yahoo! Mail on
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 31, 2013
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      Beer mashes are 'ideally' at a pH of 5.2. But much lower than that, aye, and you'll interfere with the conversion.

      Radical Ed

      Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



      From: pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...>;
      To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: My take on starting a new simple sour corn mash
      Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 1:59:52 PM

       


      My only concern is the safe ph range of the alpha amylase. Usually it needs 5.5 and higher. I have had lots of issues with viscosity and lack of conversion due to too low a ph. I only use the sour corn and backset after the conversion.i know that this is really not your intention to convert much starch but I thought I should allow everyone else to know that there is a small flaw to the procedure if there is an expectation of a lot of conversion.

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey guys, I threw this up at modern distiller, but thought you blokes might
      > like a go at it. Familiarity with UJSSM or similar no cook sugar head sour
      > corn mashes is assumed.
      >
      > So thought I'd start a thread on my current corn SSM and it's variations,
      > maybe get some feedback or stimulate a conversation too. I'm posting this
      > in brain dump mode, maybe seeing my thought process in planning will help
      > others, but it will also help me reference in the future, so apologies for
      > the wall o' text, it's more useful to me than a wall o' blank memory. I'm
      > starting a new thin/sour mash after a good long break and have decided to
      > throw a few tweaks in. I'll run this in a pot still. (btw, I'm a 'mercan
      > so any non-metric units are the US version)
      >
      > First thought, UJSSM vs. Smiley's traditional sour mash. I've done a
      > couple variations on the idea, but my first wash that wasn't just what some
      > moonshiner told me to do was based on Smiley. So I got to thinking when
      > concocting my current plan and did a little comparison. UJSSM uses equal
      > amounts of sugar and grain, at a ratio of 1.4# per gallon of liquid. Smiley
      > uses 1.54# of grain and only .923# of sugar per gallon of water. Put in
      > direct comparison, Smiley's recipe uses 10% more grain but only 66% as much
      > sugar. Having liked Smiley's recipe in the past, I'm using his as a
      > guideline, the size of my wash will more than make up for any reduced
      > volume of etoh from the reduced sugar. Both Smiley and UJSSM are adapted
      > from the same source, so it's interesting to me they ended up at different
      > ratios, been meaning to go lookup the fuel recipe that inspired them both
      > just haven't gotten around to it.
      >
      > For reference, Smiley's recipe, ignoring water quality adjusters is for an
      > 8 gal mash (5.25-6.5 gal wash after straining)
      >
      > 6.5 gal water
      >
      > 10 # grain
      >
      > 6# sugar
      >
      > Other tweaks, mostly aimed at flavor improvement.
      >
      > #1 pre-souring corn starter to get a jump on flavor development since I'm
      > starting at the first generation of a recipe well known to improve with
      > later generations. There's a great step by step here, I think by punkin,
      > but I'm doing it a bit differently. I threw a gallon of cracked feed store
      > corn in the slow cooker, and I'm trying to keep it at 120*F which I've read
      > is optimum for lactic acid bacteria. Of course I was too lazy to hook my
      > power supply up to the crock pot, so the temp isn't stable, I've dropped to
      > 100* several times, and got up to 140* on accident twice. 100* is fine for
      > LAB, but I was a little worried that 140* might have hurt the buggers so
      > after it cooled below 120* I added a bit more raw grain to re-innoculate if
      > needed. I'm 24 hours in and it smells nice and sour, hopefully the more
      > optimum temps have skipped the foul bacteria common in room temp souring
      > methods.
      >
      > #2 Inclusion of enzmes. I've got the brewhaus powdered enzymes, and I'm
      > going to add a half dose. My yeast also has AG, but not a full dose since
      > I'm making a starter. This is more of a logistical tweak than a flavor one
      > for this round. Based on my wash size, and still size, I hope to complete
      > a spirit run on the low wines of just 2 primary fermentations, and the
      > volumes will suit me. I figure the enzymes will help pull out corn flavor
      > and fermentables in just 2 iterations. Also, since I went with the lower
      > sugar Smiley recipe, increased fermentables would be welcome.
      >
      > #3 Inclusion of bakers yeast. I've got a whole bunch of old expired
      > bakers yeast packets, so I'll boil some and throw them in. Partially for
      > nutrients, but I think it was punkin said they add flavor too. Certainly
      > there is a lot of dead boiled yeast in set back, that will be missing from
      > a first gen sour mash. I don't know, or really care on my exact volume for
      > this, I might have as much as a dry cupful per 28 gallon mash, maybe less,
      > won't know till I make it.
      >
      > #4 Cornflakes. I'm not for sure on this one yet. I've never done corn
      > flakes before. I've always liked SSM's without them, but read enough
      > complaints from more experienced palates to think maybe I just don't know
      > what I"m missing. I'm thinking of adding a big box or three per 28 gallon
      > wash. I'm also surprised at how well people like corn flake recipes given
      > the seemingly small amount of flakes added, they must add more flavor than
      > I would think. I'd love feedback on this particular idea.
      >
      > #5 Corngrind. In the past I've used a variety of grinds from fine meal to
      > just whatever comes out of the cracked corn feed bag. I don't know how
      > much it matters, but this batch will be ground to a chunky corn meal
      > consistency in my corona mill. Much finer than cracked corn, but not quite
      > as fine as commercial corn meal. Maybe this will help add more flavor?
      >
      > #6 Yeast. I'm using the prestige whiskey yeast on this. I've used it in
      > the past and absolutely love it. I'm starting two 28 gallon mashes, so I
      > think I'll make up two 3L starters each getting one packet and a malt
      > extract solution. I make starters on stir plates, so they get optimum
      > oxygen and optimum yeast multiplication. Each 28 gallon mash will get one
      > full 3L starter and one full dry packet of yeast. This should be roughly
      > equivalent to adding 4 packs of yeast per fermenter, or one pack per 8-ish
      > gallon mash. I think optimum pitching rate, but saves me 4 packs of yeast.
      > I'm using both starter and dry yeast in case I bugger up the starter
      > somehow, the dry will still be there. I don't expect the DME from the
      > starters to have a huge flavor influence, but that wouldn't be bad so I'll
      > pitch the full starter rather than decant and just add slurry.
      >
      > #7 Backset. For the first generation, I'll have none, hence the presouring
      > of corn. For the second generation I'm thinking I'll use all of it. I
      > know this can cause problems eventually, but I'm trying to build up some
      > good flavor in just 2 gens. Future generations will only get 25-40%
      > backset as per SOP, but I doubt it'll cause a problem to use all the
      > backset from the first gen. I've got a week or so to decide this, so input
      > welcome.
      >
      > #8 Scale. I'll be stripping in a 45 gallon water heater, so I'm using 2x32
      > gallon fermenters. Each fermenter gets 28 gallons of mash consisting of:
      >
      > 22.75 gallons water
      >
      > Bakers yeast boiled in some of the above water
      >
      > 35# Corn Meal
      >
      > 21# sugar
      >
      > 1/2 of the sour corn starter (about 1/2 gallon dry corn plus some liquid)
      >
      > 3 L yeast starter
      >
      > 1 packet dry yeast
      >
      > 1-3 Boxes of Cornflakes (maybe)?
      >
      >
      >
      > On volume logistics, I'm making a total of about 56 gallons mash between
      > the two fermenters. I'm expecting to have at least 36 gallons of good
      > clear wash (I've had some variations here in the past in how much wash is
      > easily separated/siphoned from the mash, so I aimed low, I don't care if I
      > have to leave some behind in the fermenter as much as I want my boiler 75%
      > full. Plus any extra wash can be used to dilute the spirit run charge). I'm
      > guessing that will give me about 9 gallons of low wines.
      >
      > For the second generation I plan to use all the backset, and a fresh charge
      > of sugar. I think I'll just leave the grains be. I know I won't pull any
      > out this early in the generations, but maybe I'll throw in a few pounds
      > fresh grain? More corn flakes? Advice welcome here as well.
      >
      > First spirit run will be my estimated 9 gallons from gen 1 and gen two for
      > 18 gallons of low wines. I've got a couple gallons (2? 3?) of feints from
      > previous sour corn runs, they've been sitting for about 3 years, but
      > they'll go in the spirit run. So that'll be about a 20 gallon charge. I'll
      > dilute with any remaining wash and run (see why I don't mind having more
      > wash than will fit in my fermenter ;)
      >
      > Anyway, that's my plan, pitching yeast tonight or tomorrow. I'd love some
      > feedback in the meantime. One thing I'm intentionally leaving out is
      > grains other than corn, I want this to be corn only. Future gens may well
      > have other grains.
      >

    • Zapata Vive
      Indeed. I guess it depends on whether the low pH will simply slow conversion or if it actually destroys the enzyme. But as you pointed out, any conversion is
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 31, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Indeed.  I guess it depends on whether the low pH will simply slow conversion or if it actually destroys the enzyme.  But as you pointed out, any conversion is a bonus, and if it does nothing, it won't hurt.

        I just remembered a thread somewhere of an all grain corn mash someone did very simply, no gelatinization etc, with enzymes and while his conversion was not complete at pitching, he did a lab style distillation to measure etoh and showed full conversion of all starch to alcohol, implying the enzymes finished their job during the ferment.  I don't recall if he sour mashed or not, I'll have to go hunt it out.  If he did sour mash, it would imply that while low pH is not ideal, the enzymes do work in fermenting conditions.  Just as they apparently do regarding being much lower than their optimum temperature range.  I'll see if I can find it and report back.


        On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Eddie Hoskin <eddie_hoskin@...> wrote:
         

        Beer mashes are 'ideally' at a pH of 5.2. But much lower than that, aye, and you'll interfere with the conversion.

        Radical Ed

        Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



        From: pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...>;
        To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
        Subject: [Distillers] Re: My take on starting a new simple sour corn mash
        Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 1:59:52 PM

         


        My only concern is the safe ph range of the alpha amylase. Usually it needs 5.5 and higher. I have had lots of issues with viscosity and lack of conversion due to too low a ph. I only use the sour corn and backset after the conversion.i know that this is really not your intention to convert much starch but I thought I should allow everyone else to know that there is a small flaw to the procedure if there is an expectation of a lot of conversion.
        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey guys, I threw this up at modern distiller, but thought you blokes might
        > like a go at it. Familiarity with UJSSM or similar no cook sugar head sour
        > corn mashes is assumed.
        >
        > So thought I'd start a thread on my current corn SSM and it's variations,
        > maybe get some feedback or stimulate a conversation too. I'm posting this
        > in brain dump mode, maybe seeing my thought process in planning will help
        > others, but it will also help me reference in the future, so apologies for
        > the wall o' text, it's more useful to me than a wall o' blank memory. I'm
        > starting a new thin/sour mash after a good long break and have decided to
        > throw a few tweaks in. I'll run this in a pot still. (btw, I'm a 'mercan
        > so any non-metric units are the US version)
        >
        > First thought, UJSSM vs. Smiley's traditional sour mash. I've done a
        > couple variations on the idea, but my first wash that wasn't just what some
        > moonshiner told me to do was based on Smiley. So I got to thinking when
        > concocting my current plan and did a little comparison. UJSSM uses equal
        > amounts of sugar and grain, at a ratio of 1.4# per gallon of liquid. Smiley
        > uses 1.54# of grain and only .923# of sugar per gallon of water. Put in
        > direct comparison, Smiley's recipe uses 10% more grain but only 66% as much
        > sugar. Having liked Smiley's recipe in the past, I'm using his as a
        > guideline, the size of my wash will more than make up for any reduced
        > volume of etoh from the reduced sugar. Both Smiley and UJSSM are adapted
        > from the same source, so it's interesting to me they ended up at different
        > ratios, been meaning to go lookup the fuel recipe that inspired them both
        > just haven't gotten around to it.
        >
        > For reference, Smiley's recipe, ignoring water quality adjusters is for an
        > 8 gal mash (5.25-6.5 gal wash after straining)
        >
        > 6.5 gal water
        >
        > 10 # grain
        >
        > 6# sugar
        >
        > Other tweaks, mostly aimed at flavor improvement.
        >
        > #1 pre-souring corn starter to get a jump on flavor development since I'm
        > starting at the first generation of a recipe well known to improve with
        > later generations. There's a great step by step here, I think by punkin,
        > but I'm doing it a bit differently. I threw a gallon of cracked feed store
        > corn in the slow cooker, and I'm trying to keep it at 120*F which I've read
        > is optimum for lactic acid bacteria. Of course I was too lazy to hook my
        > power supply up to the crock pot, so the temp isn't stable, I've dropped to
        > 100* several times, and got up to 140* on accident twice. 100* is fine for
        > LAB, but I was a little worried that 140* might have hurt the buggers so
        > after it cooled below 120* I added a bit more raw grain to re-innoculate if
        > needed. I'm 24 hours in and it smells nice and sour, hopefully the more
        > optimum temps have skipped the foul bacteria common in room temp souring
        > methods.
        >
        > #2 Inclusion of enzmes. I've got the brewhaus powdered enzymes, and I'm
        > going to add a half dose. My yeast also has AG, but not a full dose since
        > I'm making a starter. This is more of a logistical tweak than a flavor one
        > for this round. Based on my wash size, and still size, I hope to complete
        > a spirit run on the low wines of just 2 primary fermentations, and the
        > volumes will suit me. I figure the enzymes will help pull out corn flavor
        > and fermentables in just 2 iterations. Also, since I went with the lower
        > sugar Smiley recipe, increased fermentables would be welcome.
        >
        > #3 Inclusion of bakers yeast. I've got a whole bunch of old expired
        > bakers yeast packets, so I'll boil some and throw them in. Partially for
        > nutrients, but I think it was punkin said they add flavor too. Certainly
        > there is a lot of dead boiled yeast in set back, that will be missing from
        > a first gen sour mash. I don't know, or really care on my exact volume for
        > this, I might have as much as a dry cupful per 28 gallon mash, maybe less,
        > won't know till I make it.
        >
        > #4 Cornflakes. I'm not for sure on this one yet. I've never done corn
        > flakes before. I've always liked SSM's without them, but read enough
        > complaints from more experienced palates to think maybe I just don't know
        > what I"m missing. I'm thinking of adding a big box or three per 28 gallon
        > wash. I'm also surprised at how well people like corn flake recipes given
        > the seemingly small amount of flakes added, they must add more flavor than
        > I would think. I'd love feedback on this particular idea.
        >
        > #5 Corngrind. In the past I've used a variety of grinds from fine meal to
        > just whatever comes out of the cracked corn feed bag. I don't know how
        > much it matters, but this batch will be ground to a chunky corn meal
        > consistency in my corona mill. Much finer than cracked corn, but not quite
        > as fine as commercial corn meal. Maybe this will help add more flavor?
        >
        > #6 Yeast. I'm using the prestige whiskey yeast on this. I've used it in
        > the past and absolutely love it. I'm starting two 28 gallon mashes, so I
        > think I'll make up two 3L starters each getting one packet and a malt
        > extract solution. I make starters on stir plates, so they get optimum
        > oxygen and optimum yeast multiplication. Each 28 gallon mash will get one
        > full 3L starter and one full dry packet of yeast. This should be roughly
        > equivalent to adding 4 packs of yeast per fermenter, or one pack per 8-ish
        > gallon mash. I think optimum pitching rate, but saves me 4 packs of yeast.
        > I'm using both starter and dry yeast in case I bugger up the starter
        > somehow, the dry will still be there. I don't expect the DME from the
        > starters to have a huge flavor influence, but that wouldn't be bad so I'll
        > pitch the full starter rather than decant and just add slurry.
        >
        > #7 Backset. For the first generation, I'll have none, hence the presouring
        > of corn. For the second generation I'm thinking I'll use all of it. I
        > know this can cause problems eventually, but I'm trying to build up some
        > good flavor in just 2 gens. Future generations will only get 25-40%
        > backset as per SOP, but I doubt it'll cause a problem to use all the
        > backset from the first gen. I've got a week or so to decide this, so input
        > welcome.
        >
        > #8 Scale. I'll be stripping in a 45 gallon water heater, so I'm using 2x32
        > gallon fermenters. Each fermenter gets 28 gallons of mash consisting of:
        >
        > 22.75 gallons water
        >
        > Bakers yeast boiled in some of the above water
        >
        > 35# Corn Meal
        >
        > 21# sugar
        >
        > 1/2 of the sour corn starter (about 1/2 gallon dry corn plus some liquid)
        >
        > 3 L yeast starter
        >
        > 1 packet dry yeast
        >
        > 1-3 Boxes of Cornflakes (maybe)?
        >
        >
        >
        > On volume logistics, I'm making a total of about 56 gallons mash between
        > the two fermenters. I'm expecting to have at least 36 gallons of good
        > clear wash (I've had some variations here in the past in how much wash is
        > easily separated/siphoned from the mash, so I aimed low, I don't care if I
        > have to leave some behind in the fermenter as much as I want my boiler 75%
        > full. Plus any extra wash can be used to dilute the spirit run charge). I'm
        > guessing that will give me about 9 gallons of low wines.
        >
        > For the second generation I plan to use all the backset, and a fresh charge
        > of sugar. I think I'll just leave the grains be. I know I won't pull any
        > out this early in the generations, but maybe I'll throw in a few pounds
        > fresh grain? More corn flakes? Advice welcome here as well.
        >
        > First spirit run will be my estimated 9 gallons from gen 1 and gen two for
        > 18 gallons of low wines. I've got a couple gallons (2? 3?) of feints from
        > previous sour corn runs, they've been sitting for about 3 years, but
        > they'll go in the spirit run. So that'll be about a 20 gallon charge. I'll
        > dilute with any remaining wash and run (see why I don't mind having more
        > wash than will fit in my fermenter ;)
        >
        > Anyway, that's my plan, pitching yeast tonight or tomorrow. I'd love some
        > feedback in the meantime. One thing I'm intentionally leaving out is
        > grains other than corn, I want this to be corn only. Future gens may well
        > have other grains.
        >


      • pint_o_shine
        My only concern is the safe ph range of the alpha amylase. Usually it needs 5.5 and higher. I have had lots of issues with viscosity and lack of conversion
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 31, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          My only concern is the safe ph range of the alpha amylase. Usually it needs 5.5 and higher. I have had lots of issues with viscosity and lack of conversion due to too low a ph. I only use the sour corn and backset after the conversion.i know that this is really not your intention to convert much starch but I thought I should allow everyone else to know that there is a small flaw to the procedure if there is an expectation of a lot of conversion.
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey guys, I threw this up at modern distiller, but thought you blokes might
          > like a go at it. Familiarity with UJSSM or similar no cook sugar head sour
          > corn mashes is assumed.
          >
          > So thought I'd start a thread on my current corn SSM and it's variations,
          > maybe get some feedback or stimulate a conversation too. I'm posting this
          > in brain dump mode, maybe seeing my thought process in planning will help
          > others, but it will also help me reference in the future, so apologies for
          > the wall o' text, it's more useful to me than a wall o' blank memory. I'm
          > starting a new thin/sour mash after a good long break and have decided to
          > throw a few tweaks in. I'll run this in a pot still. (btw, I'm a 'mercan
          > so any non-metric units are the US version)
          >
          > First thought, UJSSM vs. Smiley's traditional sour mash. I've done a
          > couple variations on the idea, but my first wash that wasn't just what some
          > moonshiner told me to do was based on Smiley. So I got to thinking when
          > concocting my current plan and did a little comparison. UJSSM uses equal
          > amounts of sugar and grain, at a ratio of 1.4# per gallon of liquid. Smiley
          > uses 1.54# of grain and only .923# of sugar per gallon of water. Put in
          > direct comparison, Smiley's recipe uses 10% more grain but only 66% as much
          > sugar. Having liked Smiley's recipe in the past, I'm using his as a
          > guideline, the size of my wash will more than make up for any reduced
          > volume of etoh from the reduced sugar. Both Smiley and UJSSM are adapted
          > from the same source, so it's interesting to me they ended up at different
          > ratios, been meaning to go lookup the fuel recipe that inspired them both
          > just haven't gotten around to it.
          >
          > For reference, Smiley's recipe, ignoring water quality adjusters is for an
          > 8 gal mash (5.25-6.5 gal wash after straining)
          >
          > 6.5 gal water
          >
          > 10 # grain
          >
          > 6# sugar
          >
          > Other tweaks, mostly aimed at flavor improvement.
          >
          > #1 pre-souring corn starter to get a jump on flavor development since I'm
          > starting at the first generation of a recipe well known to improve with
          > later generations. There's a great step by step here, I think by punkin,
          > but I'm doing it a bit differently. I threw a gallon of cracked feed store
          > corn in the slow cooker, and I'm trying to keep it at 120*F which I've read
          > is optimum for lactic acid bacteria. Of course I was too lazy to hook my
          > power supply up to the crock pot, so the temp isn't stable, I've dropped to
          > 100* several times, and got up to 140* on accident twice. 100* is fine for
          > LAB, but I was a little worried that 140* might have hurt the buggers so
          > after it cooled below 120* I added a bit more raw grain to re-innoculate if
          > needed. I'm 24 hours in and it smells nice and sour, hopefully the more
          > optimum temps have skipped the foul bacteria common in room temp souring
          > methods.
          >
          > #2 Inclusion of enzmes. I've got the brewhaus powdered enzymes, and I'm
          > going to add a half dose. My yeast also has AG, but not a full dose since
          > I'm making a starter. This is more of a logistical tweak than a flavor one
          > for this round. Based on my wash size, and still size, I hope to complete
          > a spirit run on the low wines of just 2 primary fermentations, and the
          > volumes will suit me. I figure the enzymes will help pull out corn flavor
          > and fermentables in just 2 iterations. Also, since I went with the lower
          > sugar Smiley recipe, increased fermentables would be welcome.
          >
          > #3 Inclusion of bakers yeast. I've got a whole bunch of old expired
          > bakers yeast packets, so I'll boil some and throw them in. Partially for
          > nutrients, but I think it was punkin said they add flavor too. Certainly
          > there is a lot of dead boiled yeast in set back, that will be missing from
          > a first gen sour mash. I don't know, or really care on my exact volume for
          > this, I might have as much as a dry cupful per 28 gallon mash, maybe less,
          > won't know till I make it.
          >
          > #4 Cornflakes. I'm not for sure on this one yet. I've never done corn
          > flakes before. I've always liked SSM's without them, but read enough
          > complaints from more experienced palates to think maybe I just don't know
          > what I"m missing. I'm thinking of adding a big box or three per 28 gallon
          > wash. I'm also surprised at how well people like corn flake recipes given
          > the seemingly small amount of flakes added, they must add more flavor than
          > I would think. I'd love feedback on this particular idea.
          >
          > #5 Corngrind. In the past I've used a variety of grinds from fine meal to
          > just whatever comes out of the cracked corn feed bag. I don't know how
          > much it matters, but this batch will be ground to a chunky corn meal
          > consistency in my corona mill. Much finer than cracked corn, but not quite
          > as fine as commercial corn meal. Maybe this will help add more flavor?
          >
          > #6 Yeast. I'm using the prestige whiskey yeast on this. I've used it in
          > the past and absolutely love it. I'm starting two 28 gallon mashes, so I
          > think I'll make up two 3L starters each getting one packet and a malt
          > extract solution. I make starters on stir plates, so they get optimum
          > oxygen and optimum yeast multiplication. Each 28 gallon mash will get one
          > full 3L starter and one full dry packet of yeast. This should be roughly
          > equivalent to adding 4 packs of yeast per fermenter, or one pack per 8-ish
          > gallon mash. I think optimum pitching rate, but saves me 4 packs of yeast.
          > I'm using both starter and dry yeast in case I bugger up the starter
          > somehow, the dry will still be there. I don't expect the DME from the
          > starters to have a huge flavor influence, but that wouldn't be bad so I'll
          > pitch the full starter rather than decant and just add slurry.
          >
          > #7 Backset. For the first generation, I'll have none, hence the presouring
          > of corn. For the second generation I'm thinking I'll use all of it. I
          > know this can cause problems eventually, but I'm trying to build up some
          > good flavor in just 2 gens. Future generations will only get 25-40%
          > backset as per SOP, but I doubt it'll cause a problem to use all the
          > backset from the first gen. I've got a week or so to decide this, so input
          > welcome.
          >
          > #8 Scale. I'll be stripping in a 45 gallon water heater, so I'm using 2x32
          > gallon fermenters. Each fermenter gets 28 gallons of mash consisting of:
          >
          > 22.75 gallons water
          >
          > Bakers yeast boiled in some of the above water
          >
          > 35# Corn Meal
          >
          > 21# sugar
          >
          > 1/2 of the sour corn starter (about 1/2 gallon dry corn plus some liquid)
          >
          > 3 L yeast starter
          >
          > 1 packet dry yeast
          >
          > 1-3 Boxes of Cornflakes (maybe)?
          >
          >
          >
          > On volume logistics, I'm making a total of about 56 gallons mash between
          > the two fermenters. I'm expecting to have at least 36 gallons of good
          > clear wash (I've had some variations here in the past in how much wash is
          > easily separated/siphoned from the mash, so I aimed low, I don't care if I
          > have to leave some behind in the fermenter as much as I want my boiler 75%
          > full. Plus any extra wash can be used to dilute the spirit run charge). I'm
          > guessing that will give me about 9 gallons of low wines.
          >
          > For the second generation I plan to use all the backset, and a fresh charge
          > of sugar. I think I'll just leave the grains be. I know I won't pull any
          > out this early in the generations, but maybe I'll throw in a few pounds
          > fresh grain? More corn flakes? Advice welcome here as well.
          >
          > First spirit run will be my estimated 9 gallons from gen 1 and gen two for
          > 18 gallons of low wines. I've got a couple gallons (2? 3?) of feints from
          > previous sour corn runs, they've been sitting for about 3 years, but
          > they'll go in the spirit run. So that'll be about a 20 gallon charge. I'll
          > dilute with any remaining wash and run (see why I don't mind having more
          > wash than will fit in my fermenter ;)
          >
          > Anyway, that's my plan, pitching yeast tonight or tomorrow. I'd love some
          > feedback in the meantime. One thing I'm intentionally leaving out is
          > grains other than corn, I want this to be corn only. Future gens may well
          > have other grains.
          >
        • Zapata Vive
          http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=7667&sid=db58cba5fe9bee95a32c7c50721d0d1f thats the thread I was thinking of, he used straight
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 31, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            thats the thread I was thinking of, he used straight backset to soak corn, then adjusted to pH 4.5 once cooled to mashing temps and added 30% barley malt.  In the end he got 100% conversion as tested by lab scale distillation.

            Off topic, but inspiring in that there was no PITA gelatinization step.  On topic though, at least for a generation, using lots of backset and adjusting pH is doable.

            I think I just reminded myself what I wanted to do after these sugar sours are done.  Corn + wheat + hot backset + barley.  Easy peasy maker's?


            On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 3:38 PM, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
             


            My only concern is the safe ph range of the alpha amylase. Usually it needs 5.5 and higher. I have had lots of issues with viscosity and lack of conversion due to too low a ph. I only use the sour corn and backset after the conversion.i know that this is really not your intention to convert much starch but I thought I should allow everyone else to know that there is a small flaw to the procedure if there is an expectation of a lot of conversion.
            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey guys, I threw this up at modern distiller, but thought you blokes might
            > like a go at it. Familiarity with UJSSM or similar no cook sugar head sour
            > corn mashes is assumed.
            >
            > So thought I'd start a thread on my current corn SSM and it's variations,
            > maybe get some feedback or stimulate a conversation too. I'm posting this
            > in brain dump mode, maybe seeing my thought process in planning will help
            > others, but it will also help me reference in the future, so apologies for
            > the wall o' text, it's more useful to me than a wall o' blank memory. I'm
            > starting a new thin/sour mash after a good long break and have decided to
            > throw a few tweaks in. I'll run this in a pot still. (btw, I'm a 'mercan
            > so any non-metric units are the US version)
            >
            > First thought, UJSSM vs. Smiley's traditional sour mash. I've done a
            > couple variations on the idea, but my first wash that wasn't just what some
            > moonshiner told me to do was based on Smiley. So I got to thinking when
            > concocting my current plan and did a little comparison. UJSSM uses equal
            > amounts of sugar and grain, at a ratio of 1.4# per gallon of liquid. Smiley
            > uses 1.54# of grain and only .923# of sugar per gallon of water. Put in
            > direct comparison, Smiley's recipe uses 10% more grain but only 66% as much
            > sugar. Having liked Smiley's recipe in the past, I'm using his as a
            > guideline, the size of my wash will more than make up for any reduced
            > volume of etoh from the reduced sugar. Both Smiley and UJSSM are adapted
            > from the same source, so it's interesting to me they ended up at different
            > ratios, been meaning to go lookup the fuel recipe that inspired them both
            > just haven't gotten around to it.
            >
            > For reference, Smiley's recipe, ignoring water quality adjusters is for an
            > 8 gal mash (5.25-6.5 gal wash after straining)
            >
            > 6.5 gal water
            >
            > 10 # grain
            >
            > 6# sugar
            >
            > Other tweaks, mostly aimed at flavor improvement.
            >
            > #1 pre-souring corn starter to get a jump on flavor development since I'm
            > starting at the first generation of a recipe well known to improve with
            > later generations. There's a great step by step here, I think by punkin,
            > but I'm doing it a bit differently. I threw a gallon of cracked feed store
            > corn in the slow cooker, and I'm trying to keep it at 120*F which I've read
            > is optimum for lactic acid bacteria. Of course I was too lazy to hook my
            > power supply up to the crock pot, so the temp isn't stable, I've dropped to
            > 100* several times, and got up to 140* on accident twice. 100* is fine for
            > LAB, but I was a little worried that 140* might have hurt the buggers so
            > after it cooled below 120* I added a bit more raw grain to re-innoculate if
            > needed. I'm 24 hours in and it smells nice and sour, hopefully the more
            > optimum temps have skipped the foul bacteria common in room temp souring
            > methods.
            >
            > #2 Inclusion of enzmes. I've got the brewhaus powdered enzymes, and I'm
            > going to add a half dose. My yeast also has AG, but not a full dose since
            > I'm making a starter. This is more of a logistical tweak than a flavor one
            > for this round. Based on my wash size, and still size, I hope to complete
            > a spirit run on the low wines of just 2 primary fermentations, and the
            > volumes will suit me. I figure the enzymes will help pull out corn flavor
            > and fermentables in just 2 iterations. Also, since I went with the lower
            > sugar Smiley recipe, increased fermentables would be welcome.
            >
            > #3 Inclusion of bakers yeast. I've got a whole bunch of old expired
            > bakers yeast packets, so I'll boil some and throw them in. Partially for
            > nutrients, but I think it was punkin said they add flavor too. Certainly
            > there is a lot of dead boiled yeast in set back, that will be missing from
            > a first gen sour mash. I don't know, or really care on my exact volume for
            > this, I might have as much as a dry cupful per 28 gallon mash, maybe less,
            > won't know till I make it.
            >
            > #4 Cornflakes. I'm not for sure on this one yet. I've never done corn
            > flakes before. I've always liked SSM's without them, but read enough
            > complaints from more experienced palates to think maybe I just don't know
            > what I"m missing. I'm thinking of adding a big box or three per 28 gallon
            > wash. I'm also surprised at how well people like corn flake recipes given
            > the seemingly small amount of flakes added, they must add more flavor than
            > I would think. I'd love feedback on this particular idea.
            >
            > #5 Corngrind. In the past I've used a variety of grinds from fine meal to
            > just whatever comes out of the cracked corn feed bag. I don't know how
            > much it matters, but this batch will be ground to a chunky corn meal
            > consistency in my corona mill. Much finer than cracked corn, but not quite
            > as fine as commercial corn meal. Maybe this will help add more flavor?
            >
            > #6 Yeast. I'm using the prestige whiskey yeast on this. I've used it in
            > the past and absolutely love it. I'm starting two 28 gallon mashes, so I
            > think I'll make up two 3L starters each getting one packet and a malt
            > extract solution. I make starters on stir plates, so they get optimum
            > oxygen and optimum yeast multiplication. Each 28 gallon mash will get one
            > full 3L starter and one full dry packet of yeast. This should be roughly
            > equivalent to adding 4 packs of yeast per fermenter, or one pack per 8-ish
            > gallon mash. I think optimum pitching rate, but saves me 4 packs of yeast.
            > I'm using both starter and dry yeast in case I bugger up the starter
            > somehow, the dry will still be there. I don't expect the DME from the
            > starters to have a huge flavor influence, but that wouldn't be bad so I'll
            > pitch the full starter rather than decant and just add slurry.
            >
            > #7 Backset. For the first generation, I'll have none, hence the presouring
            > of corn. For the second generation I'm thinking I'll use all of it. I
            > know this can cause problems eventually, but I'm trying to build up some
            > good flavor in just 2 gens. Future generations will only get 25-40%
            > backset as per SOP, but I doubt it'll cause a problem to use all the
            > backset from the first gen. I've got a week or so to decide this, so input
            > welcome.
            >
            > #8 Scale. I'll be stripping in a 45 gallon water heater, so I'm using 2x32
            > gallon fermenters. Each fermenter gets 28 gallons of mash consisting of:
            >
            > 22.75 gallons water
            >
            > Bakers yeast boiled in some of the above water
            >
            > 35# Corn Meal
            >
            > 21# sugar
            >
            > 1/2 of the sour corn starter (about 1/2 gallon dry corn plus some liquid)
            >
            > 3 L yeast starter
            >
            > 1 packet dry yeast
            >
            > 1-3 Boxes of Cornflakes (maybe)?
            >
            >
            >
            > On volume logistics, I'm making a total of about 56 gallons mash between
            > the two fermenters. I'm expecting to have at least 36 gallons of good
            > clear wash (I've had some variations here in the past in how much wash is
            > easily separated/siphoned from the mash, so I aimed low, I don't care if I
            > have to leave some behind in the fermenter as much as I want my boiler 75%
            > full. Plus any extra wash can be used to dilute the spirit run charge). I'm
            > guessing that will give me about 9 gallons of low wines.
            >
            > For the second generation I plan to use all the backset, and a fresh charge
            > of sugar. I think I'll just leave the grains be. I know I won't pull any
            > out this early in the generations, but maybe I'll throw in a few pounds
            > fresh grain? More corn flakes? Advice welcome here as well.
            >
            > First spirit run will be my estimated 9 gallons from gen 1 and gen two for
            > 18 gallons of low wines. I've got a couple gallons (2? 3?) of feints from
            > previous sour corn runs, they've been sitting for about 3 years, but
            > they'll go in the spirit run. So that'll be about a 20 gallon charge. I'll
            > dilute with any remaining wash and run (see why I don't mind having more
            > wash than will fit in my fermenter ;)
            >
            > Anyway, that's my plan, pitching yeast tonight or tomorrow. I'd love some
            > feedback in the meantime. One thing I'm intentionally leaving out is
            > grains other than corn, I want this to be corn only. Future gens may well
            > have other grains.
            >


          • matt hammond
            Just to get the convention right, when we say low Ph, does that mean less than 7 going towards 0, or greater than 7 going towards 14. I always thought it was
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 16, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              Just to get the convention right, when we say low Ph, does that mean less than 7 going towards 0, or greater than 7 going towards 14. I always thought it was cool how 7 is Gods number and its half the Ph scale... I wonder if hygrogen is Gods favorite element.



              From: pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...>;
              To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: My take on starting a new simple sour corn mash
              Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:38:36 PM

               


              My only concern is the safe ph range of the alpha amylase. Usually it needs 5.5 and higher. I have had lots of issues with viscosity and lack of conversion due to too low a ph. I only use the sour corn and backset after the conversion.i know that this is really not your intention to convert much starch but I thought I should allow everyone else to know that there is a small flaw to the procedure if there is an expectation of a lot of conversion.

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey guys, I threw this up at modern distiller, but thought you blokes might
              > like a go at it. Familiarity with UJSSM or similar no cook sugar head sour
              > corn mashes is assumed.
              >
              > So thought I'd start a thread on my current corn SSM and it's variations,
              > maybe get some feedback or stimulate a conversation too. I'm posting this
              > in brain dump mode, maybe seeing my thought process in planning will help
              > others, but it will also help me reference in the future, so apologies for
              > the wall o' text, it's more useful to me than a wall o' blank memory. I'm
              > starting a new thin/sour mash after a good long break and have decided to
              > throw a few tweaks in. I'll run this in a pot still. (btw, I'm a 'mercan
              > so any non-metric units are the US version)
              >
              > First thought, UJSSM vs. Smiley's traditional sour mash. I've done a
              > couple variations on the idea, but my first wash that wasn't just what some
              > moonshiner told me to do was based on Smiley. So I got to thinking when
              > concocting my current plan and did a little comparison. UJSSM uses equal
              > amounts of sugar and grain, at a ratio of 1.4# per gallon of liquid. Smiley
              > uses 1.54# of grain and only .923# of sugar per gallon of water. Put in
              > direct comparison, Smiley's recipe uses 10% more grain but only 66% as much
              > sugar. Having liked Smiley's recipe in the past, I'm using his as a
              > guideline, the size of my wash will more than make up for any reduced
              > volume of etoh from the reduced sugar. Both Smiley and UJSSM are adapted
              > from the same source, so it's interesting to me they ended up at different
              > ratios, been meaning to go lookup the fuel recipe that inspired them both
              > just haven't gotten around to it.
              >
              > For reference, Smiley's recipe, ignoring water quality adjusters is for an
              > 8 gal mash (5.25-6.5 gal wash after straining)
              >
              > 6.5 gal water
              >
              > 10 # grain
              >
              > 6# sugar
              >
              > Other tweaks, mostly aimed at flavor improvement.
              >
              > #1 pre-souring corn starter to get a jump on flavor development since I'm
              > starting at the first generation of a recipe well known to improve with
              > later generations. There's a great step by step here, I think by punkin,
              > but I'm doing it a bit differently. I threw a gallon of cracked feed store
              > corn in the slow cooker, and I'm trying to keep it at 120*F which I've read
              > is optimum for lactic acid bacteria. Of course I was too lazy to hook my
              > power supply up to the crock pot, so the temp isn't stable, I've dropped to
              > 100* several times, and got up to 140* on accident twice. 100* is fine for
              > LAB, but I was a little worried that 140* might have hurt the buggers so
              > after it cooled below 120* I added a bit more raw grain to re-innoculate if
              > needed. I'm 24 hours in and it smells nice and sour, hopefully the more
              > optimum temps have skipped the foul bacteria common in room temp souring
              > methods.
              >
              > #2 Inclusion of enzmes. I've got the brewhaus powdered enzymes, and I'm
              > going to add a half dose. My yeast also has AG, but not a full dose since
              > I'm making a starter. This is more of a logistical tweak than a flavor one
              > for this round. Based on my wash size, and still size, I hope to complete
              > a spirit run on the low wines of just 2 primary fermentations, and the
              > volumes will suit me. I figure the enzymes will help pull out corn flavor
              > and fermentables in just 2 iterations. Also, since I went with the lower
              > sugar Smiley recipe, increased fermentables would be welcome.
              >
              > #3 Inclusion of bakers yeast. I've got a whole bunch of old expired
              > bakers yeast packets, so I'll boil some and throw them in. Partially for
              > nutrients, but I think it was punkin said they add flavor too. Certainly
              > there is a lot of dead boiled yeast in set back, that will be missing from
              > a first gen sour mash. I don't know, or really care on my exact volume for
              > this, I might have as much as a dry cupful per 28 gallon mash, maybe less,
              > won't know till I make it.
              >
              > #4 Cornflakes. I'm not for sure on this one yet. I've never done corn
              > flakes before. I've always liked SSM's without them, but read enough
              > complaints from more experienced palates to think maybe I just don't know
              > what I"m missing. I'm thinking of adding a big box or three per 28 gallon
              > wash. I'm also surprised at how well people like corn flake recipes given
              > the seemingly small amount of flakes added, they must add more flavor than
              > I would think. I'd love feedback on this particular idea.
              >
              > #5 Corngrind. In the past I've used a variety of grinds from fine meal to
              > just whatever comes out of the cracked corn feed bag. I don't know how
              > much it matters, but this batch will be ground to a chunky corn meal
              > consistency in my corona mill. Much finer than cracked corn, but not quite
              > as fine as commercial corn meal. Maybe this will help add more flavor?
              >
              > #6 Yeast. I'm using the prestige whiskey yeast on this. I've used it in
              > the past and absolutely love it. I'm starting two 28 gallon mashes, so I
              > think I'll make up two 3L starters each getting one packet and a malt
              > extract solution. I make starters on stir plates, so they get optimum
              > oxygen and optimum yeast multiplication. Each 28 gallon mash will get one
              > full 3L starter and one full dry packet of yeast. This should be roughly
              > equivalent to adding 4 packs of yeast per fermenter, or one pack per 8-ish
              > gallon mash. I think optimum pitching rate, but saves me 4 packs of yeast.
              > I'm using both starter and dry yeast in case I bugger up the starter
              > somehow, the dry will still be there. I don't expect the DME from the
              > starters to have a huge flavor influence, but that wouldn't be bad so I'll
              > pitch the full starter rather than decant and just add slurry.
              >
              > #7 Backset. For the first generation, I'll have none, hence the presouring
              > of corn. For the second generation I'm thinking I'll use all of it. I
              > know this can cause problems eventually, but I'm trying to build up some
              > good flavor in just 2 gens. Future generations will only get 25-40%
              > backset as per SOP, but I doubt it'll cause a problem to use all the
              > backset from the first gen. I've got a week or so to decide this, so input
              > welcome.
              >
              > #8 Scale. I'll be stripping in a 45 gallon water heater, so I'm using 2x32
              > gallon fermenters. Each fermenter gets 28 gallons of mash consisting of:
              >
              > 22.75 gallons water
              >
              > Bakers yeast boiled in some of the above water
              >
              > 35# Corn Meal
              >
              > 21# sugar
              >
              > 1/2 of the sour corn starter (about 1/2 gallon dry corn plus some liquid)
              >
              > 3 L yeast starter
              >
              > 1 packet dry yeast
              >
              > 1-3 Boxes of Cornflakes (maybe)?
              >
              >
              >
              > On volume logistics, I'm making a total of about 56 gallons mash between
              > the two fermenters. I'm expecting to have at least 36 gallons of good
              > clear wash (I've had some variations here in the past in how much wash is
              > easily separated/siphoned from the mash, so I aimed low, I don't care if I
              > have to leave some behind in the fermenter as much as I want my boiler 75%
              > full. Plus any extra wash can be used to dilute the spirit run charge). I'm
              > guessing that will give me about 9 gallons of low wines.
              >
              > For the second generation I plan to use all the backset, and a fresh charge
              > of sugar. I think I'll just leave the grains be. I know I won't pull any
              > out this early in the generations, but maybe I'll throw in a few pounds
              > fresh grain? More corn flakes? Advice welcome here as well.
              >
              > First spirit run will be my estimated 9 gallons from gen 1 and gen two for
              > 18 gallons of low wines. I've got a couple gallons (2? 3?) of feints from
              > previous sour corn runs, they've been sitting for about 3 years, but
              > they'll go in the spirit run. So that'll be about a 20 gallon charge. I'll
              > dilute with any remaining wash and run (see why I don't mind having more
              > wash than will fit in my fermenter ;)
              >
              > Anyway, that's my plan, pitching yeast tonight or tomorrow. I'd love some
              > feedback in the meantime. One thing I'm intentionally leaving out is
              > grains other than corn, I want this to be corn only. Future gens may well
              > have other grains.
              >

            • Adam Fordham
              Are you using flour, cracked, or corn meal? Fermenting on the grain is the way preferred by US distilleries for whiskey production. Spargeing corn mash is
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 16, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Are you using flour, cracked, or corn meal? Fermenting on the grain is the way preferred by US distilleries for whiskey production. Spargeing corn mash is difficult and will lend a different flavor profile. The PH is to maximize the effective use of the enzymes. Traditional european practices involve using barley which sparges easier. I would recommend you read more. Will save you money time and effort. Be safe and enjoy your hobby

                Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


                From: matt hammond <matt_hammond2003@...>;
                To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                Subject: [Distillers] Ph
                Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:55:33 PM



                Just to get the convention right, when we say low Ph, does that mean less than 7 going towards 0, or greater than 7 going towards 14. I always thought it was cool how 7 is Gods number and its half the Ph scale... I wonder if hygrogen is Gods favorite element.



                From: pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...>;
                To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                Subject: [Distillers] Re: My take on starting a new simple sour corn mash
                Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:38:36 PM

                 


                My only concern is the safe ph range of the alpha amylase. Usually it needs 5.5 and higher. I have had lots of issues with viscosity and lack of conversion due to too low a ph. I only use the sour corn and backset after the conversion.i know that this is really not your intention to convert much starch but I thought I should allow everyone else to know that there is a small flaw to the procedure if there is an expectation of a lot of conversion.

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey guys, I threw this up at modern distiller, but thought you blokes might
                > like a go at it. Familiarity with UJSSM or similar no cook sugar head sour
                > corn mashes is assumed.
                >
                > So thought I'd start a thread on my current corn SSM and it's variations,
                > maybe get some feedback or stimulate a conversation too. I'm posting this
                > in brain dump mode, maybe seeing my thought process in planning will help
                > others, but it will also help me reference in the future, so apologies for
                > the wall o' text, it's more useful to me than a wall o' blank memory. I'm
                > starting a new thin/sour mash after a good long break and have decided to
                > throw a few tweaks in. I'll run this in a pot still. (btw, I'm a 'mercan
                > so any non-metric units are the US version)
                >
                > First thought, UJSSM vs. Smiley's traditional sour mash. I've done a
                > couple variations on the idea, but my first wash that wasn't just what some
                > moonshiner told me to do was based on Smiley. So I got to thinking when
                > concocting my current plan and did a little comparison. UJSSM uses equal
                > amounts of sugar and grain, at a ratio of 1.4# per gallon of liquid. Smiley
                > uses 1.54# of grain and only .923# of sugar per gallon of water. Put in
                > direct comparison, Smiley's recipe uses 10% more grain but only 66% as much
                > sugar. Having liked Smiley's recipe in the past, I'm using his as a
                > guideline, the size of my wash will more than make up for any reduced
                > volume of etoh from the reduced sugar. Both Smiley and UJSSM are adapted
                > from the same source, so it's interesting to me they ended up at different
                > ratios, been meaning to go lookup the fuel recipe that inspired them both
                > just haven't gotten around to it.
                >
                > For reference, Smiley's recipe, ignoring water quality adjusters is for an
                > 8 gal mash (5.25-6.5 gal wash after straining)
                >
                > 6.5 gal water
                >
                > 10 # grain
                >
                > 6# sugar
                >
                > Other tweaks, mostly aimed at flavor improvement.
                >
                > #1 pre-souring corn starter to get a jump on flavor development since I'm
                > starting at the first generation of a recipe well known to improve with
                > later generations. There's a great step by step here, I think by punkin,
                > but I'm doing it a bit differently. I threw a gallon of cracked feed store
                > corn in the slow cooker, and I'm trying to keep it at 120*F which I've read
                > is optimum for lactic acid bacteria. Of course I was too lazy to hook my
                > power supply up to the crock pot, so the temp isn't stable, I've dropped to
                > 100* several times, and got up to 140* on accident twice. 100* is fine for
                > LAB, but I was a little worried that 140* might have hurt the buggers so
                > after it cooled below 120* I added a bit more raw grain to re-innoculate if
                > needed. I'm 24 hours in and it smells nice and sour, hopefully the more
                > optimum temps have skipped the foul bacteria common in room temp souring
                > methods.
                >
                > #2 Inclusion of enzmes. I've got the brewhaus powdered enzymes, and I'm
                > going to add a half dose. My yeast also has AG, but not a full dose since
                > I'm making a starter. This is more of a logistical tweak than a flavor one
                > for this round. Based on my wash size, and still size, I hope to complete
                > a spirit run on the low wines of just 2 primary fermentations, and the
                > volumes will suit me. I figure the enzymes will help pull out corn flavor
                > and fermentables in just 2 iterations. Also, since I went with the lower
                > sugar Smiley recipe, increased fermentables would be welcome.
                >
                > #3 Inclusion of bakers yeast. I've got a whole bunch of old expired
                > bakers yeast packets, so I'll boil some and throw them in. Partially for
                > nutrients, but I think it was punkin said they add flavor too. Certainly
                > there is a lot of dead boiled yeast in set back, that will be missing from
                > a first gen sour mash. I don't know, or really care on my exact volume for
                > this, I might have as much as a dry cupful per 28 gallon mash, maybe less,
                > won't know till I make it.
                >
                > #4 Cornflakes. I'm not for sure on this one yet. I've never done corn
                > flakes before. I've always liked SSM's without them, but read enough
                > complaints from more experienced palates to think maybe I just don't know
                > what I"m missing. I'm thinking of adding a big box or three per 28 gallon
                > wash. I'm also surprised at how well people like corn flake recipes given
                > the seemingly small amount of flakes added, they must add more flavor than
                > I would think. I'd love feedback on this particular idea.
                >
                > #5 Corngrind. In the past I've used a variety of grinds from fine meal to
                > just whatever comes out of the cracked corn feed bag. I don't know how
                > much it matters, but this batch will be ground to a chunky corn meal
                > consistency in my corona mill. Much finer than cracked corn, but not quite
                > as fine as commercial corn meal. Maybe this will help add more flavor?
                >
                > #6 Yeast. I'm using the prestige whiskey yeast on this. I've used it in
                > the past and absolutely love it. I'm starting two 28 gallon mashes, so I
                > think I'll make up two 3L starters each getting one packet and a malt
                > extract solution. I make starters on stir plates, so they get optimum
                > oxygen and optimum yeast multiplication. Each 28 gallon mash will get one
                > full 3L starter and one full dry packet of yeast. This should be roughly
                > equivalent to adding 4 packs of yeast per fermenter, or one pack per 8-ish
                > gallon mash. I think optimum pitching rate, but saves me 4 packs of yeast.
                > I'm using both starter and dry yeast in case I bugger up the starter
                > somehow, the dry will still be there. I don't expect the DME from the
                > starters to have a huge flavor influence, but that wouldn't be bad so I'll
                > pitch the full starter rather than decant and just add slurry.
                >
                > #7 Backset. For the first generation, I'll have none, hence the presouring
                > of corn. For the second generation I'm thinking I'll use all of it. I
                > know this can cause problems eventually, but I'm trying to build up some
                > good flavor in just 2 gens. Future generations will only get 25-40%
                > backset as per SOP, but I doubt it'll cause a problem to use all the
                > backset from the first gen. I've got a week or so to decide this, so input
                > welcome.
                >
                > #8 Scale. I'll be stripping in a 45 gallon water heater, so I'm using 2x32
                > gallon fermenters. Each fermenter gets 28 gallons of mash consisting of:
                >
                > 22.75 gallons water
                >
                > Bakers yeast boiled in some of the above water
                >
                > 35# Corn Meal
                >
                > 21# sugar
                >
                > 1/2 of the sour corn starter (about 1/2 gallon dry corn plus some liquid)
                >
                > 3 L yeast starter
                >
                > 1 packet dry yeast
                >
                > 1-3 Boxes of Cornflakes (maybe)?
                >
                >
                >
                > On volume logistics, I'm making a total of about 56 gallons mash between
                > the two fermenters. I'm expecting to have at least 36 gallons of good
                > clear wash (I've had some variations here in the past in how much wash is
                > easily separated/siphoned from the mash, so I aimed low, I don't care if I
                > have to leave some behind in the fermenter as much as I want my boiler 75%
                > full. Plus any extra wash can be used to dilute the spirit run charge). I'm
                > guessing that will give me about 9 gallons of low wines.
                >
                > For the second generation I plan to use all the backset, and a fresh charge
                > of sugar. I think I'll just leave the grains be. I know I won't pull any
                > out this early in the generations, but maybe I'll throw in a few pounds
                > fresh grain? More corn flakes? Advice welcome here as well.
                >
                > First spirit run will be my estimated 9 gallons from gen 1 and gen two for
                > 18 gallons of low wines. I've got a couple gallons (2? 3?) of feints from
                > previous sour corn runs, they've been sitting for about 3 years, but
                > they'll go in the spirit run. So that'll be about a 20 gallon charge. I'll
                > dilute with any remaining wash and run (see why I don't mind having more
                > wash than will fit in my fermenter ;)
                >
                > Anyway, that's my plan, pitching yeast tonight or tomorrow. I'd love some
                > feedback in the meantime. One thing I'm intentionally leaving out is
                > grains other than corn, I want this to be corn only. Future gens may well
                > have other grains.
                >



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