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Re: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!

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  • Jean Levac
    I put it in a strainer and unless I pressed really hard with my hand, there would be no liquid coming out of the strainer. Almost like oatmeal. ... . Re:
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 12, 2013
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      Re: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help! I put it in a strainer and unless I pressed really hard with my hand, there would be no liquid coming out of the strainer.  Almost like oatmeal.


      On 13-08-12 6:41 PM, "M L" <kekedog13@...> wrote:


       
       
         

      What do you mean " it was impossible to separate" ?
      --------------------------------------------
      On Mon, 8/12/13, Jean <jeanlevac@... <mailto:jeanlevac%40rogers.com> > wrote:

      Subject: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!
       To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
       Date: Monday, August 12, 2013, 3:04 PM
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       Hi, I did my first 100% corn mash yesterday and
       I'm not sure if it went well.  I used 20 gallons of
       water with ph5.8, followed all the steps that you would
       normally do.  I used 44 lbs of hammer milled corn with a
       mesh size of 3 and glucoamylase enzymes.  It all went well
       until I wanted to separate the corn and the water because I
       didn't want to ferment on grain.  Man, it was
       impossible.  Should I have fermented on grain and then
       separated for my direct fired still?  I ended up straining a
       few cups at a time to get the wash out.  Crazy.  Help!!!!
       
       Thanks
       
       J
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
         

            
       
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    • Louis Lenz
      i put a piece of jersey material (the stretchy tshirt kind) over a 50gal blue barrel, secured with one of those tie down straps from your truck really tight,
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 12, 2013
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        i put a piece of jersey material (the stretchy tshirt kind) over a 50gal blue barrel, secured with one of those tie down straps from your truck really tight, dump all the mash in, let it sit overnight and i get pretty much all the liquid out. i tried squeezing through paint straining bags, made a press, all kinds of different tricks.  but i'm sticking with gravity and patience.  good luck 


        From: Jean <jeanlevac@...>
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 6:04 PM
        Subject: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!

         
        Hi, I did my first 100% corn mash yesterday and I'm not sure if it went well. I used 20 gallons of water with ph5.8, followed all the steps that you would normally do. I used 44 lbs of hammer milled corn with a mesh size of 3 and glucoamylase enzymes. It all went well until I wanted to separate the corn and the water because I didn't want to ferment on grain. Man, it was impossible. Should I have fermented on grain and then separated for my direct fired still? I ended up straining a few cups at a time to get the wash out. Crazy. Help!!!!
        Thanks
        J



      • Dale
        w what kind of size is your cooker, sounds like you are trying for a big kill
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 12, 2013
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          w














          what kind of size is your cooker, sounds like you are trying for a big kill

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Louis Lenz <loulenz2002@...> wrote:
          >
          > i put a piece of jersey material (the stretchy tshirt kind) over a 50gal blue barrel, secured with one of those tie down straps from your truck really tight, dump all the mash in, let it sit overnight and i get pretty much all the liquid out. i tried squeezing through paint straining bags, made a press, all kinds of different tricks.  but i'm sticking with gravity and patience.  good luck 
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Jean <jeanlevac@...>
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 6:04 PM
          > Subject: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          > Hi, I did my first 100% corn mash yesterday and I'm not sure if it went well. I used 20 gallons of water with ph5.8, followed all the steps that you would normally do. I used 44 lbs of hammer milled corn with a mesh size of 3 and glucoamylase enzymes. It all went well until I wanted to separate the corn and the water because I didn't want to ferment on grain. Man, it was impossible. Should I have fermented on grain and then separated for my direct fired still? I ended up straining a few cups at a time to get the wash out. Crazy. Help!!!!
          > Thanks
          > J
          >
        • Jean Levac
          We are launching a small craft distillery and while we wait for the permits to be approved, we are allowed to test and practice. ... Re: [Distillers] Re: first
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 13, 2013
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            Re: [Distillers] Re: first 100% corn mash Help!
            We are launching a small craft distillery and while we wait for the permits to be approved, we are allowed to test and practice.

            On 13-08-13 1:07 AM, "Dale" <dalerw1969@...> wrote:


             
             
               

            w

            what kind of size is your cooker, sounds like you are trying for a big kill

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Lenz <loulenz2002@...> wrote:
            >
            > i put a piece of jersey material (the stretchy tshirt kind) over a 50gal blue barrel, secured with one of those tie down straps from your truck really tight, dump all the mash in, let it sit overnight and i get pretty much all the liquid out. i tried squeezing through paint straining bags, made a press, all kinds of different tricks.  but i'm sticking with gravity and patience.  good luck 
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >  From: Jean <jeanlevac@...>
            > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>  
            > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 6:04 PM
            > Subject: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!
            >  
            >
            >
            >  
            > Hi, I did my first 100% corn mash yesterday and I'm not sure if it went well.  I used 20 gallons of water with ph5.8, followed all the steps that you would normally do.  I used 44 lbs of hammer milled corn with a mesh size of 3 and glucoamylase enzymes.  It all went well until I wanted to separate the corn and the water because I didn't want to ferment on grain.  Man, it was impossible.  Should I have fermented on grain and then separated for my direct fired still?  I ended up straining a few cups at a time to get the wash out.  Crazy.  Help!!!!
            > Thanks
            > J
            >

             
               

                  
             
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          • Jean Levac
            Gravity works. I can¹t believe how much corn absorbs the water. Starting out with 20 gallons, I would say that I finished with about 12 gallons or so of
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 13, 2013
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              Re: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help! Gravity works.  I can’t believe how much corn absorbs the water.  Starting out with 20 gallons, I would say that I finished with about 12 gallons or so of wash.  Is this about right?  I pitched the yeast last night, the room temperature is about 22-23C.  Seems like the yeast is slowly bubbling 10 hours later.  


              On 13-08-13 12:08 AM, "Louis Lenz" <loulenz2002@...> wrote:


               
               
                 

              i put a piece of jersey material (the stretchy tshirt kind) over a 50gal blue barrel, secured with one of those tie down straps from your truck really tight, dump all the mash in, let it sit overnight and i get pretty much all the liquid out. i tried squeezing through paint straining bags, made a press, all kinds of different tricks.  but i'm sticking with gravity and patience.  good luck

                
               
               
               

               
              From: Jean <jeanlevac@...>
               To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
               Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 6:04 PM
               Subject: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!
               

               

                
                 
              Hi, I did my first 100% corn mash yesterday and I'm not sure if it went well.  I used 20 gallons of water with ph5.8, followed all the steps that you would normally do.  I used 44 lbs of hammer milled corn with a mesh size of 3 and glucoamylase enzymes.  It all went well until I wanted to separate the corn and the water because I didn't want to ferment on grain.  Man, it was impossible.  Should I have fermented on grain and then separated for my direct fired still?  I ended up straining a few cups at a time to get the wash out.  Crazy.  Help!!!!
              Thanks
              J

               
               


               
               
                

                 
            • Hector Landaeta
              Hello Jean. I wanted to ask for your patience as I m new to this forum (It s been over 10 years since I posted something here) but not to the matter of your
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 13, 2013
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                Hello Jean.

                I wanted to ask for your patience as I'm "new" to this forum (It's been over 10 years since I posted something here) but not to the matter of your post.
                You say you used "hammer milled" corn and that is the first indication of trouble there. The second is the way you're wanting to separate the corn itself from the "wash". I'm not 100% sure of what it is you describe as your corn source but it seems that it's intended use is for some kind of animal feed, or combustible material for stoves, not really for cooking or human consumption. The foremost danger that you have there is that you have to de-germinate corn before using it for anything that involves human consumption as corn germs are oil rich and broken out of the stabilizing confines of the kernel it becomes rancid in a matter of days if not hours. Rancid corn oil in trace amounts is VERY bad for you (as in highly carcinogenic) but the compound that results of combining it with other congeneric substances in the presence of high heat (try your typical still temps) is a BOMB! Diarrhea, headaches or worse are typical symptoms. And I'm talking TRACE amounts. Plus, this compounds evaporate at the exact same temps as ethanol so there's no hiding behind the distillation process.
                Anyway, what you want to do to make an efficient, scientifically updated corn mash is to use the right corn mash material and that is brewer's pre-gelatinized flaked corn, it should be available at your local brewing supply store, and use the right amylase enzyme.

                You see, the enzyme can't get to the starch until it's gelatinized and corn gelatinization temps are, if memory doesn't fail me, a bit higher than effective amylase temps. Of course, if you're using any form of pre-gelatinized corn this is of no consequence. I would like to point you to a source of cheap, made for human consumption corn which is widely available here: cornmeal. I think I saw a five Lb bag in Walmart going for a bit under $4. Be advised that if you select this option it should involve a gelatinization step prior to adding the enzyme and it calls for a lot of mixing on a ever thickening and considerably expanding paste like mash because proper, efficient gelatinization involves not only an exact temp regimen but also an ideal corn to water ratio that typically works against your arms in the mixing process, that must be constant.

                If sourcing of the brewer's corn flakes or cornmeal gets tough or expensive for you I can suggest a readily available alternative in the form of "Pre-cooked maize meal" instant corn doughs that we south and central americans use to make tamales, corn tacos and tortillas, arepas, etc. You should be able to find them in the "ethnic foods" aisle in your local supermarket as they tend to be as ubiquitous as ourselves even in the colder parts of this northern colony of ours. Beware that the mostly Mexican brands (like "Mazeca") tend to add a little amount of lyme as an ingredient. It gives the finished tortilla the authentic smoky kind of taste but I really can't fathom how it would affect your final distillate or even if it would be able to make it there. As of pricing reference I've found in wholesale food operations here in Miami (businesses that cater to restaurants and small food markets) a Mazeca brand 30 Lb sack of "pre-cooked corn flour" going for $17 (without tax because supposedly you're a reseller). The supermarket retail sizes (2 to 6 Lbs bags) cost from $3 to $6. Being a bit costlier than cornmeal all of them are not only pre-gelatinized but ULTRA pre-gelatinized! They mix with warm water fast and smoothly, you just have to work out the lumps a bit by hand or with a beater or wait a few minutes for them to dissolve on their own. I'm not 100% sure of the following because I can't recall but I believe that pre-gelatinized corn in any form has a very high rate of conversion to sugars. I believe near total saccharification should be obtained at the optimal enzyme temp but that is something that should be looked up. Also I don't know for sure how much insoluble corn residue would remain in the mash but I gather it should be minimal or it wouldn't make to much of a difference towards the type of heating on your still, specially if you carefully syphon your corn wine avoiding both the floating debris and bottom sediment.

                If my comments seem a bit discouraging I again apologize. I would really like for you to look up this theme in the Home Brew Digest (hbd.org) or in hombrewtalk.com as I'm pretty sure there must be a lot of information regarding adjunct brewing there. As in here, it's been a while (10+ years) since I've contributed a post to the hbd but I'm pretty certain there must be something useful in the archives or in live form.
                Salud!
                -
                Hector L.
              • Louis Lenz
                i dont have my notes on hand, but 12 gals sounds a little low. i ferment on the grain and it seems that after the ferment it filters a little better. and you
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 13, 2013
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                  i dont have my notes on hand, but 12 gals sounds a little low. i ferment on the grain and it seems that after the ferment it filters a little better. and you are also getting all the sugars left on the grain to ferment, maybe getting a little higher starting abv. as it ferments i pull all the grain that floats off with a strainer and dump them.
                • matt hammond
                  A few questions please... what are the benefits of adjusting to the ideal Ph ? And what won t I get if I use regular tap water? Its a well mind you
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 15, 2013
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                    A few questions please... what are the benefits of adjusting to the ideal Ph ? And what won't I get if I use regular tap water? Its a well mind you



                    From: Jean <jeanlevac@...>;
                    To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                    Subject: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!
                    Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 10:04:56 PM

                     

                    Hi, I did my first 100% corn mash yesterday and I'm not sure if it went well. I used 20 gallons of water with ph5.8, followed all the steps that you would normally do. I used 44 lbs of hammer milled corn with a mesh size of 3 and glucoamylase enzymes. It all went well until I wanted to separate the corn and the water because I didn't want to ferment on grain. Man, it was impossible. Should I have fermented on grain and then separated for my direct fired still? I ended up straining a few cups at a time to get the wash out. Crazy. Help!!!!
                    Thanks
                    J

                  • matt hammond
                    Dear Mr Hector, Thanks for bringing these facts to my attention. Let me ask please that if I am going to use cornmeal, what s going on with enriched corn
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 15, 2013
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                      Dear Mr Hector,

                      Thanks for bringing these facts to my attention. Let me ask please that if I am going to use cornmeal, what's going on with "enriched" corn meal? And what do I need to look out for on the topic of the preservatives that are going to be present?

                      -ben



                      From: Hector Landaeta <hectorlandaeta@...>;
                      To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: first 100% corn mash Help!
                      Sent: Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:23:51 PM

                       

                      Hello Jean.

                      I wanted to ask for your patience as I'm "new" to this forum (It's been over 10 years since I posted something here) but not to the matter of your post.
                      You say you used "hammer milled" corn and that is the first indication of trouble there. The second is the way you're wanting to separate the corn itself from the "wash". I'm not 100% sure of what it is you describe as your corn source but it seems that it's intended use is for some kind of animal feed, or combustible material for stoves, not really for cooking or human consumption. The foremost danger that you have there is that you have to de-germinate corn before using it for anything that involves human consumption as corn germs are oil rich and broken out of the stabilizing confines of the kernel it becomes rancid in a matter of days if not hours. Rancid corn oil in trace amounts is VERY bad for you (as in highly carcinogenic) but the compound that results of combining it with other congeneric substances in the presence of high heat (try your typical still temps) is a BOMB! Diarrhea, headaches or worse are typical symptoms. And I'm talking TRACE amounts. Plus, this compounds evaporate at the exact same temps as ethanol so there's no hiding behind the distillation process.
                      Anyway, what you want to do to make an efficient, scientifically updated corn mash is to use the right corn mash material and that is brewer's pre-gelatinized flaked corn, it should be available at your local brewing supply store, and use the right amylase enzyme.

                      You see, the enzyme can't get to the starch until it's gelatinized and corn gelatinization temps are, if memory doesn't fail me, a bit higher than effective amylase temps. Of course, if you're using any form of pre-gelatinized corn this is of no consequence. I would like to point you to a source of cheap, made for human consumption corn which is widely available here: cornmeal. I think I saw a five Lb bag in Walmart going for a bit under $4. Be advised that if you select this option it should involve a gelatinization step prior to adding the enzyme and it calls for a lot of mixing on a ever thickening and considerably expanding paste like mash because proper, efficient gelatinization involves not only an exact temp regimen but also an ideal corn to water ratio that typically works against your arms in the mixing process, that must be constant.

                      If sourcing of the brewer's corn flakes or cornmeal gets tough or expensive for you I can suggest a readily available alternative in the form of "Pre-cooked maize meal" instant corn doughs that we south and central americans use to make tamales, corn tacos and tortillas, arepas, etc. You should be able to find them in the "ethnic foods" aisle in your local supermarket as they tend to be as ubiquitous as ourselves even in the colder parts of this northern colony of ours. Beware that the mostly Mexican brands (like "Mazeca") tend to add a little amount of lyme as an ingredient. It gives the finished tortilla the authentic smoky kind of taste but I really can't fathom how it would affect your final distillate or even if it would be able to make it there. As of pricing reference I've found in wholesale food operations here in Miami (businesses that cater to restaurants and small food markets) a Mazeca brand 30 Lb sack of "pre-cooked corn flour" going for $17 (without tax because supposedly you're a reseller). The supermarket retail sizes (2 to 6 Lbs bags) cost from $3 to $6. Being a bit costlier than cornmeal all of them are not only pre-gelatinized but ULTRA pre-gelatinized! They mix with warm water fast and smoothly, you just have to work out the lumps a bit by hand or with a beater or wait a few minutes for them to dissolve on their own. I'm not 100% sure of the following because I can't recall but I believe that pre-gelatinized corn in any form has a very high rate of conversion to sugars. I believe near total saccharification should be obtained at the optimal enzyme temp but that is something that should be looked up. Also I don't know for sure how much insoluble corn residue would remain in the mash but I gather it should be minimal or it wouldn't make to much of a difference towards the type of heating on your still, specially if you carefully syphon your corn wine avoiding both the floating debris and bottom sediment.

                      If my comments seem a bit discouraging I again apologize. I would really like for you to look up this theme in the Home Brew Digest (hbd.org) or in hombrewtalk.com as I'm pretty sure there must be a lot of information regarding adjunct brewing there. As in here, it's been a while (10+ years) since I've contributed a post to the hbd but I'm pretty certain there must be something useful in the archives or in live form.
                      Salud!
                      -
                      Hector L.

                    • Zapata Vive
                      depends on what your well pH is, who knows, maybe it s 5.2? But to give a general answer, pH affects flavor, yeast health and maybe more importantly enzyme
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 16, 2013
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                        depends on what your well pH is, who knows, maybe it's 5.2?

                        But to give a general answer, pH affects flavor, yeast health and maybe more importantly enzyme activity.


                        On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:20 AM, matt hammond <matt_hammond2003@...> wrote:
                         

                        A few questions please... what are the benefits of adjusting to the ideal Ph ? And what won't I get if I use regular tap water? Its a well mind you



                        From: Jean <jeanlevac@...>;
                        To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                        Subject: [Distillers] first 100% corn mash Help!
                        Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 10:04:56 PM

                         

                        Hi, I did my first 100% corn mash yesterday and I'm not sure if it went well. I used 20 gallons of water with ph5.8, followed all the steps that you would normally do. I used 44 lbs of hammer milled corn with a mesh size of 3 and glucoamylase enzymes. It all went well until I wanted to separate the corn and the water because I didn't want to ferment on grain. Man, it was impossible. Should I have fermented on grain and then separated for my direct fired still? I ended up straining a few cups at a time to get the wash out. Crazy. Help!!!!
                        Thanks
                        J


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