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Rye ergot

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  • adam
    Haven t posted n a bit hello everyone. I recently was given a huge barrel of rye from a silo. It hasn t been cleaned or processed in any way. Few weavils but
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 4, 2013
      Haven't posted n a bit hello everyone. I recently was given a huge barrel of rye from a silo. It hasn't been cleaned or processed in any way. Few weavils but not bad. I'm concerned about ergot and wanted to know if anyone knew of a way to detect it.
    • o1bigtenor
      ... If any of the kernels look shrunken and black - - - you don t want those. Some of them are the same size (rarely even larger). The material is of quite a
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 4, 2013
        On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 3:04 PM, adam <bluwater2828@...> wrote:
        Haven't posted n a bit hello everyone. I recently was given a huge barrel of rye from a silo. It hasn't been cleaned or processed in any way. Few weavils but not bad. I'm concerned about ergot and wanted to know if anyone knew of a way to detect it.



        If any of the kernels look shrunken and black - - - you don't want those. Some of them are the same size (rarely even larger). The material is of quite a different density so a specific gravity table is capable of taking out the kernels. It may also be possible to take out these kernels using a sizing mill (regular grain cleaning) but I'm not sure on that. If there are vomitoxin kernels in the grain I'm not sure what levels are considered safe. Different kinds of animals can tolerate different levels (turkeys among the highest!).   Darald

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      • Adam Fordham
        Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 4, 2013
          Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin them see if that works. Maybe a 5 gal bucket 1/4 full tied to rope and spin. It always amazes me how one thing leads to another in this hobby....I love it

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          From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>;
          To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
          Sent: Sun, Aug 4, 2013 10:27:13 PM





          On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 3:04 PM, adam <bluwater2828@...> wrote:
          Haven't posted n a bit hello everyone. I recently was given a huge barrel of rye from a silo. It hasn't been cleaned or processed in any way. Few weavils but not bad. I'm concerned about ergot and wanted to know if anyone knew of a way to detect it.



          If any of the kernels look shrunken and black - - - you don't want those. Some of them are the same size (rarely even larger). The material is of quite a different density so a specific gravity table is capable of taking out the kernels. It may also be possible to take out these kernels using a sizing mill (regular grain cleaning) but I'm not sure on that. If there are vomitoxin kernels in the grain I'm not sure what levels are considered safe. Different kinds of animals can tolerate different levels (turkeys among the highest!).   Darald

          ------------------------------------

           Distillers list archives :
          http://www.taet.com.au/distillers.nsf/

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        • o1bigtenor
          ... I ve been using rye for making bread (heavy heavy stuff!!! ;-) !! ) so I don t want any because I m eating it and I am trying to perfect my method so I can
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 4, 2013
            On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...> wrote:


            Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin them see if that works. Maybe a 5 gal bucket 1/4 full tied to rope and spin. It always amazes me how one thing leads to another in this hobby....I love it

            I've been using rye for making bread (heavy heavy stuff!!! ;-) !! ) so I don't want any because I'm eating it and I am trying to perfect my method so I can sell as well (so I really don't want any ergot in there!!!!!). What I do is pour 2 c worth on a cookie sheet (baking pan about 9 x 12" with a lip about 3/4" high for a rim on all 4 sides). I can sort 10#s in about 45 minutes (IIRC) so its not easy but its not 'hard'. I try to have a layer a single kernel deep on the tray and I look for the dark bits and pick them out. Now this was 'bin run' which means that it was straight from the granary (straight from the combine). Now I also bought some from a seed producer which means that it had been cleaned and there are no blacks in as far as I can tell but as I still have a few pails of rye to use up I will be picking things until they are done! Its about double the money.    Darald
          • Zapata Vive
            Personally I d just sort by eye a few random gallons to get an idea what the infection rate is, if any. This is not hard to do, ergot sclerotia don t look
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 4, 2013
              Personally I'd just sort by eye a few random gallons to get an idea what the infection rate is, if any.  This is not hard to do, ergot sclerotia don't look like grains, so you can do it by eye with pretty good accuracy just pouring a sample from one container to another.  If there is less than a sclerotia or two per gallon, I wouldn't worry about it, just pluck them out when you see them.  More than that I'd probably bother looking up what kinda dosage it would take to be harmful, and see if it warranted sorting at all.

              I often find various species of ergot in grains, especially animal or bird food grade, but I even found one in a sack of name brand malted barley once.  Apparently small amounts aren't as scary as some might think.

              Of course sorting by eye increases with difficulty with how much other junk is in the grain, little twig like debris will often trigger my brain to think ergot, when it's really just junk.

              On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...> wrote:
               

              Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin them see if that works. Maybe a 5 gal bucket 1/4 full tied to rope and spin. It always amazes me how one thing leads to another in this hobby....I love it

              Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone


              From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>;
              To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
              Sent: Sun, Aug 4, 2013 10:27:13 PM





              On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 3:04 PM, adam <bluwater2828@...> wrote:
              Haven't posted n a bit hello everyone. I recently was given a huge barrel of rye from a silo. It hasn't been cleaned or processed in any way. Few weavils but not bad. I'm concerned about ergot and wanted to know if anyone knew of a way to detect it.



              If any of the kernels look shrunken and black - - - you don't want those. Some of them are the same size (rarely even larger). The material is of quite a different density so a specific gravity table is capable of taking out the kernels. It may also be possible to take out these kernels using a sizing mill (regular grain cleaning) but I'm not sure on that. If there are vomitoxin kernels in the grain I'm not sure what levels are considered safe. Different kinds of animals can tolerate different levels (turkeys among the highest!).   Darald

              ------------------------------------

               Distillers list archives :
              http://www.taet.com.au/distillers.nsf/

               FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
              http://homedistiller.orgYahoo! Groups Links

              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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            • Adam Fordham
              Thanks bo. I ve always used flaked grains from a brew shop. Expensive but safe. This rye I have now come from a local farmer. Got to worrying about ergot so
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 5, 2013
                Thanks bo. I've always used flaked grains from a brew shop. Expensive but safe. This rye I have now come from a local farmer. Got to worrying about ergot so I've been sitting on it and reading up before hand. Knowledge is everything and safety is something I haven't had to concern myself with in a long while. Good though ital keep me on my toes .

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                From: Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...>;
                To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
                Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 3:19:12 AM



                Personally I'd just sort by eye a few random gallons to get an idea what the infection rate is, if any.  This is not hard to do, ergot sclerotia don't look like grains, so you can do it by eye with pretty good accuracy just pouring a sample from one container to another.  If there is less than a sclerotia or two per gallon, I wouldn't worry about it, just pluck them out when you see them.  More than that I'd probably bother looking up what kinda dosage it would take to be harmful, and see if it warranted sorting at all.

                I often find various species of ergot in grains, especially animal or bird food grade, but I even found one in a sack of name brand malted barley once.  Apparently small amounts aren't as scary as some might think.

                Of course sorting by eye increases with difficulty with how much other junk is in the grain, little twig like debris will often trigger my brain to think ergot, when it's really just junk.

                On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...> wrote:
                 

                Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin them see if that works. Maybe a 5 gal bucket 1/4 full tied to rope and spin. It always amazes me how one thing leads to another in this hobby....I love it

                Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone


                From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>;
                To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
                Sent: Sun, Aug 4, 2013 10:27:13 PM





                On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 3:04 PM, adam <bluwater2828@...> wrote:
                Haven't posted n a bit hello everyone. I recently was given a huge barrel of rye from a silo. It hasn't been cleaned or processed in any way. Few weavils but not bad. I'm concerned about ergot and wanted to know if anyone knew of a way to detect it.



                If any of the kernels look shrunken and black - - - you don't want those. Some of them are the same size (rarely even larger). The material is of quite a different density so a specific gravity table is capable of taking out the kernels. It may also be possible to take out these kernels using a sizing mill (regular grain cleaning) but I'm not sure on that. If there are vomitoxin kernels in the grain I'm not sure what levels are considered safe. Different kinds of animals can tolerate different levels (turkeys among the highest!).   Darald

                ------------------------------------

                 Distillers list archives :
                http://www.taet.com.au/distillers.nsf/

                 FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
                http://homedistiller.orgYahoo! Groups Links

                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/

                <*> Your email settings:
                    Individual Email | Traditional

                <*> To change settings online go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/join
                    (Yahoo! ID required)

                <*> To change settings via email:
                    Distillers-digest@yahoogroups.com
                    Distillers-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    Distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/







              • Adam Fordham
                Well that doesn t sound so bad. Thanks for sharing. Safety is first always. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 5, 2013
                  Well that doesn't sound so bad. Thanks for sharing. Safety is first always.

                  Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone


                  From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>;
                  To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
                  Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 3:05:03 AM





                  On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...> wrote:


                  Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin them see if that works. Maybe a 5 gal bucket 1/4 full tied to rope and spin. It always amazes me how one thing leads to another in this hobby....I love it

                  I've been using rye for making bread (heavy heavy stuff!!! ;-) !! ) so I don't want any because I'm eating it and I am trying to perfect my method so I can sell as well (so I really don't want any ergot in there!!!!!). What I do is pour 2 c worth on a cookie sheet (baking pan about 9 x 12" with a lip about 3/4" high for a rim on all 4 sides). I can sort 10#s in about 45 minutes (IIRC) so its not easy but its not 'hard'. I try to have a layer a single kernel deep on the tray and I look for the dark bits and pick them out. Now this was 'bin run' which means that it was straight from the granary (straight from the combine). Now I also bought some from a seed producer which means that it had been cleaned and there are no blacks in as far as I can tell but as I still have a few pails of rye to use up I will be picking things until they are done! Its about double the money.    Darald


                • matt hammond
                  Just a quick question about ergot please. If ergot was passed on to the wort/wash, when it is turned into distillate the ethanol would kill it right? I turn
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 15, 2013

                    Just a quick question about ergot please. If ergot was passed on to the wort/wash, when it is turned into distillate the ethanol would kill it right? I turn out 155 proof on my second run. Thanks much



                    From: Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...>;
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>; Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
                    Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 9:00:17 PM

                     

                    Well that doesn't sound so bad. Thanks for sharing. Safety is first always.

                    Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone



                    From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>;
                    To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
                    Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 3:05:03 AM





                    On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...> wrote:


                    Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin them see if that works. Maybe a 5 gal bucket 1/4 full tied to rope and spin. It always amazes me how one thing leads to another in this hobby....I love it

                    I've been using rye for making bread (heavy heavy stuff!!! ;-) !! ) so I don't want any because I'm eating it and I am trying to perfect my method so I can sell as well (so I really don't want any ergot in there!!!!!). What I do is pour 2 c worth on a cookie sheet (baking pan about 9 x 12" with a lip about 3/4" high for a rim on all 4 sides). I can sort 10#s in about 45 minutes (IIRC) so its not easy but its not 'hard'. I try to have a layer a single kernel deep on the tray and I look for the dark bits and pick them out. Now this was 'bin run' which means that it was straight from the granary (straight from the combine). Now I also bought some from a seed producer which means that it had been cleaned and there are no blacks in as far as I can tell but as I still have a few pails of rye to use up I will be picking things until they are done! Its about double the money.    Darald


                  • Zapata Vive
                    ergot isn t an infectious poison like the flu or salmonella. The poisons are chemicals produced by the fungus. So it s not a matter of the ethanol killing
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 16, 2013
                      ergot isn't an infectious poison like the flu or salmonella.  The poisons are chemicals produced by the fungus.  So it's not a matter of the ethanol killing the ergot as much as it's a matter of it being incredibly unlikely that you'd ever manage to poison yourself with them.

                      Ethanol will kill ergot, it won't destroy the toxins.  In fact ethanol is a good solvent for the toxins.  On the other hand, many (most? all?) the toxins are relatively unstable so the heat and air exposure is likely to have destroyed them.
                      BTW, here are some pics of ergot, one on the stalk, the other in loose grain to illustrate what I meant above about it being easy to spot.  It's actually hard to miss...
                      http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/BOT135/ErgotonRye.gif
                      http://www.buhlergroup.com/global/images/Grainsorting_Rye_reject_002.jpg


                      On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:03 AM, matt hammond <matt_hammond2003@...> wrote:
                       

                      Just a quick question about ergot please. If ergot was passed on to the wort/wash, when it is turned into distillate the ethanol would kill it right? I turn out 155 proof on my second run. Thanks much



                      From: Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...>;
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>; Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
                      Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 9:00:17 PM

                       

                      Well that doesn't sound so bad. Thanks for sharing. Safety is first always.

                      Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone



                      From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>;
                      To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Rye ergot
                      Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 3:05:03 AM





                      On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Adam Fordham <bluwater2828@...> wrote:


                      Good information thank you. I was hoping to not have to sort by hand( I usually mash about 25lbs at a go ) if the gravity is different I might shake or spin them see if that works. Maybe a 5 gal bucket 1/4 full tied to rope and spin. It always amazes me how one thing leads to another in this hobby....I love it

                      I've been using rye for making bread (heavy heavy stuff!!! ;-) !! ) so I don't want any because I'm eating it and I am trying to perfect my method so I can sell as well (so I really don't want any ergot in there!!!!!). What I do is pour 2 c worth on a cookie sheet (baking pan about 9 x 12" with a lip about 3/4" high for a rim on all 4 sides). I can sort 10#s in about 45 minutes (IIRC) so its not easy but its not 'hard'. I try to have a layer a single kernel deep on the tray and I look for the dark bits and pick them out. Now this was 'bin run' which means that it was straight from the granary (straight from the combine). Now I also bought some from a seed producer which means that it had been cleaned and there are no blacks in as far as I can tell but as I still have a few pails of rye to use up I will be picking things until they are done! Its about double the money.    Darald



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