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Re: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser

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  • girlguidebiscuit
    A contact told me he avoids copper because it develops deposits that must be cleaned out every time it is used. Is that true? I was thinking of developing a
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
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      A contact told me he avoids copper because it develops deposits that must be cleaned out every time it is used. Is that true? I was thinking of developing a coil heat exchanger/condenser out of two sizes of refrigeration tubing soldered together, or maybe coil tube-in-tube style. But if the cleaning is problematic, that may not be practical.

      By the way, can anyone please explain the objection to using ordinary silphos brazing solder? - does it contain cadmium? It's just that plumbers use and have used it for many years with no problems.

      Thanks for your help.
      Paul


      --- On Tue, 26/3/13, Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...> wrote:

      From: Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...>
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
      To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, 26, March, 2013, 2:28 AM

       

      I'm using a Liebig. It also is 1/2" inside 3/4". I think 24" is fairly standard length. I built mine long. 36" between the cooling water tee's. I can run the cooling water quite slow on the stove top still. That model has a 3/4" copper riser running through a tee, out the side to a 45° and then to the condenser. The top of the tee has a thermometer port..
      On the keg still I run 2". A pot still with no thermometer and also a Bok. I use the same Liebig on them. I don't have to run the recirculation pump to fast here either. Hardly at all on the Bok. its only a product chiller before the parrot. Unless I turn the heat up too much on the big pot. But that just forces more water to jump.
      I still end up using the same amount of heat transfer as though I was running a shorter one. I just don't have to turn the pump control up as high.
      I've never used a gram condenser. I think I'll try to make on and test it out.

      Sent from Tim's iPhone

    • henry sangret
      I agree with what you found. I have further increased my efficiency using stainless compression springs that I put inside the waterjacket prior to seailing it
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
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        I agree with what you found. I have further increased my efficiency using stainless compression springs that I put inside the waterjacket prior to seailing it up and that causes the water to swirl in the condenser eliminating any hot spots. I also put a spring inside the condenser tube which does the same thing and eliminates the ocassional surges you get in the vapor.
         
        I also put a coupeling between the condenser and the output tube for disasembly and cleaning with a brush which should be done after EVERY first distillation to remove the sulfide and carbonacious deposits. Alot of people dont clean and complain about strange off flavors!

        From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:52 PM
        Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
         
        I'm also  Liebig user, and I've made and used several of them. 1/2 in 3/4 has always worked well for me, although I've built one with internal water-cooled cross-tubes that was 24" long, but worked like a 30".

        One nice thing about a plain Liebig that you can't say about a Graham or crimped Liebig: it will work at any angle up to almost level. The other condensers will pool and burp when they get far from vertical.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm using a Liebig. It also is 1/2" inside 3/4". I think 24" is fairly standard length. I built mine long. 36" between the cooling water tee's. I can run the cooling water quite slow on the stove top still. That model has a 3/4" copper riser running through a tee, out the side to a 45° and then to the condenser. The top of the tee has a thermometer port.
        > On the keg still I run 2". A pot still with no thermometer and also a Bok. I use the same Liebig on them. I don't have to run the recirculation pump to fast here either. Hardly at all on the Bok. its only a product chiller before the parrot. Unless I turn the heat up too much on the big pot. But that just forces more water to jump.
        > I still end up using the same amount of heat transfer as though I was running a shorter one. I just don't have to turn the pump control up as high.
        > I've never used a gram condenser. I think I'll try to make on and test it out.
        >
        > Sent from Tim's iPhone
        >
      • henry sangret
        Just remember all users is that your condensers must be physically cleaned, (with a brush not soaked) quite frequently when using copper because of sulfur and
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
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          Just remember all users is that your condensers must be physically cleaned, (with a brush not soaked) quite frequently when using copper because of sulfur and carbon deposits!. An easy design is easy to clean and produces no strange off flavors that are hard to remove when cleaned frequiently.

          From: jsducote <forlorntexan@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 10:43 AM
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
           
          Fyi- I thought the Graham is what was being discussed in last week's "TTB cuts" thread, regarding coiling. You might re-read.
          -j

          --- In mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com, Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...> wrote:
          >
          > I've never used a gram condenser. I think I'll try to make on and test it out.

        • henry sangret
          Yes you can buy sil-phos brazing solder that does not contain cadmium, its just harder to use because of the higher temps required.     I use copper
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
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            Yes you can buy sil-phos brazing solder that does not contain cadmium, its just harder to use because of the higher temps required.  
             
            I use copper because it helps clean the distillate of sulfides and unwanted carbon compounds. Even the larger distilleries that have stainless stills know the benefits of commer on flavor and have removable copper plates in their stills. Yes you must clean copper more frequently but I believe it makes a cleaned distillate. I use a straight through Liebeg design that has an internal baffle that can be disassembled for cleaning with ordinary tube brushes.

            From: "self.adhesive@..." <self.adhesive@...>
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 12:32 PM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
             
            A contact told me he avoids copper because it develops deposits that must be cleaned out every time it is used. Is that true? I was thinking of developing a coil heat exchanger/condenser out of two sizes of refrigeration tubing soldered together, or maybe coil tube-in-tube style. But if the cleaning is problematic, that may not be practical.

            By the way, can anyone please explain the objection to using ordinary silphos brazing solder? - does it contain cadmium? It's just that plumbers use and have used it for many years with no problems.

            Thanks for your help.
            Paul


            --- On Tue, 26/3/13, Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...> wrote:

            From: Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...>
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
            To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Tuesday, 26, March, 2013, 2:28 AM

             
            I'm using a Liebig. It also is 1/2" inside 3/4". I think 24" is fairly standard length. I built mine long. 36" between the cooling water tee's. I can run the cooling water quite slow on the stove top still. That model has a 3/4" copper riser running through a tee, out the side to a 45° and then to the condenser. The top of the tee has a thermometer port..
            On the keg still I run 2". A pot still with no thermometer and also a Bok. I use the same Liebig on them. I don't have to run the recirculation pump to fast here either. Hardly at all on the Bok. its only a product chiller before the parrot. Unless I turn the heat up too much on the big pot. But that just forces more water to jump.
            I still end up using the same amount of heat transfer as though I was running a shorter one. I just don't have to turn the pump control up as high.
            I've never used a gram condenser. I think I'll try to make on and test it out.

            Sent from Tim's iPhone
             
          • tgfoitwoods
            Henry, Any idea as to what kinds of carbon compounds are deposited on the copper? The chemistry of flavors is a big interest of mine. Zymurgy Bob, a simple
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
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              Henry,

              Any idea as to what kinds of carbon compounds are deposited on the copper? The chemistry of flavors is a big interest of mine.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, henry sangret <henrysangret@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes you can buy sil-phos brazing solder that does not contain cadmium, its just harder to use because of the higher temps required.  
              >  
              > I use copper because it helps clean the distillate of sulfides and unwanted carbon compounds. Even the larger distilleries that have stainless stills know the benefits of commer on flavor and have removable copper plates in their stills. Yes you must clean copper more frequently but I believe it makes a cleaned distillate. I use a straight through Liebeg design that has an internal baffle that can be disassembled for cleaning with ordinary tube brushes.
              >
              >
              ----snip----
            • Tom
              To All: The same build-up that takes place inside a Lieberg Condenser will, I suppose, build up in a traditional copper worm. What s the best method to clean
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
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                To All:

                The same build-up that takes place inside a Lieberg Condenser will, I suppose, build up in a traditional copper worm. What's the best method to clean the inside of a worm? I just flush mine with water immediately after use. Sometimes I pour some StarSan solution through it and then flush it with water. Should I be doing something else? There's no way to scrub the inside of a worm with a brush.

                Thanks,

                Tom

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, henry sangret <henrysangret@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Just remember all users is that your condensers must be physically cleaned, (with a brush not soaked) quite frequently when using copper because of sulfur and carbon deposits!. An easy design is easy to clean and produces no strange off flavors that are hard to remove when cleaned frequiently.
                >
                >
                > SNIP
              • henry sangret
                I have no way of analyzing them , I do know that it has been discussed on several professional levels, and the hydrocarbons vary with fermentation yeasts and
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
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                  I have no way of analyzing them , I do know that it has been discussed on several professional levels, and the hydrocarbons vary with fermentation yeasts and type of worts.

                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:02 AM
                  Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
                   
                  Henry,

                  Any idea as to what kinds of carbon compounds are deposited on the copper? The chemistry of flavors is a big interest of mine.

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, henry sangret <henrysangret@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes you can buy sil-phos brazing solder that does not contain cadmium, its just harder to use because of the higher temps required.  
                  >  
                  > I use copper because it helps clean the distillate of sulfides and unwanted carbon compounds. Even the larger distilleries that have stainless stills know the benefits of commer on flavor and have removable copper plates in their stills. Yes you must clean copper more frequently but I believe it makes a cleaned distillate. I use a straight through Liebeg design that has an internal baffle that can be disassembled for cleaning with ordinary tube brushes.
                  >
                  >
                  ----snip----
                • henry sangret
                  that s why I use straight sections of tubing with taps or couplings to get at each straight section. I have tried numerous tines to use liquid cleaners with
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
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                    that's why I use straight sections of tubing with taps or couplings to get at each straight section. I have tried numerous tines to use liquid cleaners with no success, yes they remove some of the surface contaminates but they don't remove the sulfides and imbedded hydrocarbons.
                     
                    I have seen laboratory cleaners that are basically many scrub brushes on a cord and are very flexible to get into hard to reach areas.

                    From: Tom tomhawk412@...
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:53 AM
                    Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
                     
                    To All:

                    The same build-up that takes place inside a Lieberg Condenser will, I suppose, build up in a traditional copper worm. What's the best method to clean the inside of a worm? I just flush mine with water immediately after use. Sometimes I pour some StarSan solution through it and then flush it with water. Should I be doing something else? There's no way to scrub the inside of a worm with a brush.

                    Thanks,

                    Tom

                    --- In mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com, henry sangret <henrysangret@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Just remember all users is that your condensers must be physically cleaned, (with a brush not soaked) quite frequently when using copper because of sulfur and carbon deposits!. An easy design is easy to clean and produces no strange off flavors that are hard to remove when cleaned frequiently.
                    >
                    >
                    > SNIP

                  • bluwater2828
                    Vegemite ?? No that s different Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
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                      Vegemite ?? No that's different


                      Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone


                      From: henry sangret <henrysangret@...>;
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
                      Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 2:36:54 PM



                      I have no way of analyzing them , I do know that it has been discussed on several professional levels, and the hydrocarbons vary with fermentation yeasts and type of worts.

                      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:02 AM
                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
                       
                      Henry,

                      Any idea as to what kinds of carbon compounds are deposited on the copper? The chemistry of flavors is a big interest of mine.

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, henry sangret <henrysangret@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes you can buy sil-phos brazing solder that does not contain cadmium, its just harder to use because of the higher temps required.  
                      >  
                      > I use copper because it helps clean the distillate of sulfides and unwanted carbon compounds. Even the larger distilleries that have stainless stills know the benefits of commer on flavor and have removable copper plates in their stills. Yes you must clean copper more frequently but I believe it makes a cleaned distillate. I use a straight through Liebeg design that has an internal baffle that can be disassembled for cleaning with ordinary tube brushes.
                      >
                      >
                      ----snip----


                    • bluwater2828
                      Try a gun cleaning kit. I use a shotgun cleaning snake. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
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                        Try a gun cleaning kit. I use a shotgun cleaning snake.


                        Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone


                        From: henry sangret <henrysangret@...>;
                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
                        Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
                        Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 5:00:18 PM



                        that's why I use straight sections of tubing with taps or couplings to get at each straight section. I have tried numerous tines to use liquid cleaners with no success, yes they remove some of the surface contaminates but they don't remove the sulfides and imbedded hydrocarbons.
                         
                        I have seen laboratory cleaners that are basically many scrub brushes on a cord and are very flexible to get into hard to reach areas.

                        From: Tom tomhawk412@...
                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:53 AM
                        Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graham condenser or liebeg condenser
                         
                        To All:

                        The same build-up that takes place inside a Lieberg Condenser will, I suppose, build up in a traditional copper worm. What's the best method to clean the inside of a worm? I just flush mine with water immediately after use. Sometimes I pour some StarSan solution through it and then flush it with water. Should I be doing something else? There's no way to scrub the inside of a worm with a brush.

                        Thanks,

                        Tom

                        --- In mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com, henry sangret <henrysangret@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Just remember all users is that your condensers must be physically cleaned, (with a brush not soaked) quite frequently when using copper because of sulfur and carbon deposits!. An easy design is easy to clean and produces no strange off flavors that are hard to remove when cleaned frequiently.
                        >
                        >
                        > SNIP



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