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Re: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter

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  • RLB
    Desross It s all about the money.  There is little that we can do to change a formulaor fermentation, sothat leaves distillation.  Equipment is by far the
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 21, 2013
      Desross

      It's all about the money.  There is little that we can do to change a formula or fermentation, so that leaves distillation.  Equipment is by far the most costly, and a heat source is our second highest expense.  It's a fact that we can split water into hydrogen and oxygen.  It's a fact that CO2 and hydrogen can be turned into hydrocarbon.  Wash contains water. and yeast produces CO2.  We have almost everything we need to produce our own flammable gases to heat our still.  Many distillers already use airlocks, so it would not be too difficult to connect a small compressor to a fermentation tank to collect hydrogen, oxygen, and hydrocarbon to use as heating fuel.  It's all about saving money for tried and true methods.  What happen to the alcohol is another matter.

      Robert


      From: Desross <djross@...>
      To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:06 AM
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter

       
      Love it! I believe that others far more knowledgable and experienced in the craft of alcohol distillation than I, and probably the vast majority of distillers, would be adopting the practice of these theoretical ideas, if in fact there was a better more efficient method of producing safe alcohol based product using other than existing tried and proven practices. Having stated this, I also accept the possibility there is a brilliant mind out there about to unleash shattering new revelations to the contrary. Is there such a oerson amonst us? Otherwise,  perhaps  'experiments' to prove these possibilities should be put to one side until some degree of competence, experience and success with more 'traditional' tried and true methods, is achieved.
      Just my thoughts


    • tgfoitwoods
      Robert, This is why I asked about the chemical equation for the process. For instance, here is an equation for reacting the simplest hydrocarbon, methane, with
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 22, 2013
        Robert,

        This is why I asked about the chemical equation for the process. For instance, here is an equation for reacting the simplest hydrocarbon, methane, with oxygen, to yield carbon dioxide and water. This reaction is commonly called combustion.
        CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy.

        Now what you propose to do is exactly that equation, but with the "yields" arrow pointing the other direction. It is implicit in almost any chemical equation that the arrow actually points both ways, depending on the conditions, and what you want to happen.

        So now we get the equation that represents what you wanted;
        CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy -> CH4 + 2O2
        So you can do exactly what you propose, and it seems that Eddie's platinum-catalyzed process is one way to do that, but the most important thing you need to know is that you need to put exactly the same amount of energy into CO2 and H2O to get methane and water, as you get from burning that methane. That's the TANSTAAFL principle, "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, sometimes called the law of conservation of energy.

        So there's no reason to create methane, or any other hydrocarbon that way, unless you live in a world with lots of very cheap energy and no hydrocarbons, not the world most of us live in.

        What's happening here is that this discussion is changing from people who want to make and drink pleasant beverages to how to make fuel (including especially for Werner Von Braun's A4, which got renamed to the V2) and manage energy. To continue this discussion it should really be taken to one of the ethanol fuel forums, like http://forum-alcohol4fuel.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18.

        Understand that for many of us, the important issue is not how to separate ethanol and water, but how to make things that taste good, whiskeys, rums, brandies, even vodkas, for some, and speculations on purifying ethanol don't help us much toward that end.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
        >
        > Z Bob:
        >
        > That is way over my head.  Currently, scientist can turn CO2 into hydrocarbon by placing electrodes into a chemical solution similar to wash.  Applying electric energy to those electrodes causes the formation of hydrocarbon.  My idea is a variation of what science is doing in that area, but my main problem is oxygen will be released.  Increasing oxygen helps yeast growth, and oxygen hinders alcohol production by yeast.  It might be possible to do this slowly as the beginning, and then crank it up later on during fermentation.  It will be an experiment to see what will happen.  My main goal will be to see if water and alcohol can be separated by breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen.  Hydrocarbon is just an added bonus.  Electric energy for this experiment is not a problem.
        >
        > Robert
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:22 PM
        > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter
        >
        >
        >  
        > Robert,
        >
        > Any idea what that equation might look like?
        >
        > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB last2blast@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Wal:
        > >
        > > At a future time, one of my experiments will be to try and transform CO2 into hydrocarbon during fermentation.  If that works it can be used to heat my stills.  It will be interesting to see what happens to alcohol when hydrogen and CO2 is turned into a hydrocarbon. 
        > >
        > >
        > > Robert
        >
      • jsducote
        A beautiful response... And it doesn t include the energy needed to catalyze the water/wash. That ain t free either. I ll wager that the amount of CO2 produced
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 22, 2013
          A beautiful response...

          And it doesn't include the energy needed to catalyze the water/wash. That ain't free either.

          I'll wager that the amount of CO2 produced (by the average home distiller's ferment) could only create enough methane to give a brief puff of flame, hardly enough to heat a cup of tea (assuming it was already warm). If your ferment was producing enough CO2 to convert into enough methane to boil 8 gallons of wash, you'd probably have suffocated by now.
          -j

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
          >
          > So you can do exactly what you propose, and it seems that Eddie's
          > platinum-catalyzed process is one way to do that, but the most important
          > thing you need to know is that you need to put exactly the same amount
          > of energy into CO2 and H2O to get methane and water, as you get from
          > burning that methane. That's the TANSTAAFL principle, "There Ain't No
          > Such Thing As A Free Lunch, sometimes called the law of conservation of
          > energy.
        • RLB
          Z Bob: Everything I do is on a shoestring budget, so I put forth an interesting idea that might help distillers of both spirits and/or bio-fuel because it s
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 22, 2013
            Z Bob:

            Everything I do is on a shoestring budget, so I put forth an interesting idea that might help distillers of both spirits and/or bio-fuel because it's the same process.  If someone attempts this before me, everyone wins.  As for energy required for this process, it isn't a problem for me but that is outside the realm of this forum.  People says everything possible has been tried when it comes to distilling spirits, but I have not seen where someone has used this process with wash or wort.  Science and technology improves, and we as distillers and future distillers should look for ways to improve our process and product.  If we save $1 while producing the same product, we all win.  I agree that everything has been tried with ingredients and formulas, so all that leaves for us to improve is our distillation process.  Distillation involves equipment and heat source. 

            With that said, I will refrain from further comment on this subject until after my experiments are completed.

            Robert 


            From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 11:44 AM
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter

             
            Robert,

            This is why I asked about the chemical equation for the process. For instance, here is an equation for reacting the simplest hydrocarbon, methane, with oxygen, to yield carbon dioxide and water. This reaction is commonly called combustion.
            CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy.

            Now what you propose to do is exactly that equation, but with the "yields" arrow pointing the other direction. It is implicit in almost any chemical equation that the arrow actually points both ways, depending on the conditions, and what you want to happen.

            So now we get the equation that represents what you wanted;
            CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy -> CH4 + 2O2
            So you can do exactly what you propose, and it seems that Eddie's platinum-catalyzed process is one way to do that, but the most important thing you need to know is that you need to put exactly the same amount of energy into CO2 and H2O to get methane and water, as you get from burning that methane. That's the TANSTAAFL principle, "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, sometimes called the law of conservation of energy.

            So there's no reason to create methane, or any other hydrocarbon that way, unless you live in a world with lots of very cheap energy and no hydrocarbons, not the world most of us live in.

            What's happening here is that this discussion is changing from people who want to make and drink pleasant beverages to how to make fuel (including especially for Werner Von Braun's A4, which got renamed to the V2) and manage energy. To continue this discussion it should really be taken to one of the ethanol fuel forums, like http://forum-alcohol4fuel.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18.

            Understand that for many of us, the important issue is not how to separate ethanol and water, but how to make things that taste good, whiskeys, rums, brandies, even vodkas, for some, and speculations on purifying ethanol don't help us much toward that end.

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
            >
            > Z Bob:
            >
            > That is way over my head.  Currently, scientist can turn CO2 into hydrocarbon by placing electrodes into a chemical solution similar to wash.  Applying electric energy to those electrodes causes the formation of hydrocarbon.  My idea is a variation of what science is doing in that area, but my main problem is oxygen will be released.  Increasing oxygen helps yeast growth, and oxygen hinders alcohol production by yeast.  It might be possible to do this slowly as the beginning, and then crank it up later on during fermentation.  It will be an experiment to see what will happen.  My main goal will be to see if water and alcohol can be separated by breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen.  Hydrocarbon is just an added bonus.  Electric energy for this experiment is not a problem.
            >
            > Robert

          • Becool Stayslinky
            Robert, Not to be negative, but don t do the experiment. To process even a few ounces of wort will put you into the don t try this at home category. Besides,
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 22, 2013
              Robert,

              Not to be negative, but don't do the experiment. To process even a few ounces of wort will put you into the "don't try this at home" category. Besides, it's already been done - ethanol gives up hydrogen easier than water which means you would be losing your intended product.

              You won't replace the art of this hobby with technology, and it's not always about the money. I have thousands invested in my setup, but doubt that I consume more than a few bottles a year, yet for some reason I can't stop thinking about it.

              Be cool, stay slinky, and enjoy what the hobby has to offer.

              BC

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > With that said, I will refrain from further comment on this subject until after my experiments are completed.
              >
              > Robert 
              >
              >
              >
            • Harry
              Not about the money, eh? Well then (bright idea) I might spend a few million & take my gear into orbit. Space is a vacuum, so I should be able to distil
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 23, 2013
                Not about the money, eh? Well then (bright idea) I might spend a few million & take my gear into orbit. Space is a vacuum, so I should be able to distil without heat energy input. Orta save a couple bucks a bottle that way, yes? Maybe even start a revolution. ;)

                *Another "from the sublime to the ridiculous" offering.
                Brought to you by....


                Slainte!
                regards Harry


                *from something that is very good or very serious to something very bad or silly

                (Definition from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)

                ===========================



                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Becool Stayslinky" <becoolstayslinky@...> wrote:
                >
                > Robert,
                >
                > Not to be negative, but don't do the experiment. To process even a few ounces of wort will put you into the "don't try this at home" category. Besides, it's already been done - ethanol gives up hydrogen easier than water which means you would be losing your intended product.
                >
                > You won't replace the art of this hobby with technology, and it's not always about the money. I have thousands invested in my setup, but doubt that I consume more than a few bottles a year, yet for some reason I can't stop thinking about it.
                >
                > Be cool, stay slinky, and enjoy what the hobby has to offer.
                >
                > BC
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > With that said, I will refrain from further comment on this subject until after my experiments are completed.
                > >
                > > Robert 
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
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