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Re: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts

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  • White Bear
    Good answer ZBob -  The only thing I can add to this is, learn to make your cuts, 1.    Foreshots - Lowend alcohols, really bad for you 2.    Heads -
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 18, 2013
      Good answer ZBob -
       The only thing I can add to this is, learn to make your cuts,
      1.    Foreshots - Lowend alcohols, really bad for you
      2.    Heads - includes some of the foreshote and flavor
      3.    Hearts - ethanol you want for drinking
      4.    Tails - Highend alcohols, some flavor, mostly water and nasty tasting alcohol
      Learn, learn, learn - you may have just gotten lucky but why risk drinking Methanol.
      WB
       
       
       

      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:34 PM
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts
       
      Dale,

      For the first part, congratulations on getting such smooth liquor, although I'm not exactly sure how you did it keeping foreshots and tails.

      With regards to the methanol, everything I've ever read, including the 2 MSDS's in the links here, say that methanol had a very similar taste to ethanol, but fainter, and that it's virtually impossible to detect, by flavor or odor, at least, methanol in an ethanol solution. Fortunately, almost nothing you can do simply fermenting and distilling will give you dangerous levels of methanol, and that's helped by the fact that the antidote for methanol poisoning is drinking ethanol.

      http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm

      http://www.cen.iitb.ac.in/cen/usage-policies/msds/methanol.pdf

      So, simply put, methanol is not the problem, but it sure as hell is not the solution. The cases we hear of methanol in spirits causing death and blindness are the results of unscrupulous sellers mixing very cheap methanol into their liquors to give similar (at first!!) intoxication to the more expensive ethanol. The main reason they can get away with it, before people start dying, at least, is that nobody can taste methanol in ethanol.

      As far as added flavor and complexity, there are lots of highly-flavored compounds that can be created by fermentation and distilling. We call these "congeners", and in the correct trace amounts these can give certain liquors their characteristic flavors and odors (and possibly headaches).

      Some of these are acetone, acetaldehyde, ethyl acetate, ethyl proprionate, amyl alchol, and a bunch of others, Never never NEVER add methanol to your liquor!!!

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks
      for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is poison, which is true, but that ethanol is an antidote
      > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: last2blast last2blast@...
      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
      > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
      >
      >
      >  
      > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
      >
      > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
      >
      > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
      >
      > How do you determine when to cut?
      > â€" Temperature?
      > â€" Smell?
      >
      > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste
      and smell.
      >
      > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
      >
      > Robert
      >
    • Bill Rogers
      darwinism at it s best? related Bad Hooch Kills 102 in Calcutta http://www.newser.com/story/135450/bad-hooch-kills-102-in-calcutta.html ... darwinism at it s
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 18, 2013
        darwinism at it's best?

        related

        Bad Hooch Kills 102 in Calcutta






        On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 1:34 PM, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
         

        Dale,

        For the first part, congratulations on getting such smooth liquor, although I'm not exactly sure how you did it keeping foreshots and tails.

        With regards to the methanol, everything I've ever read, including the 2 MSDS's in the links here, say that methanol had a very similar taste to ethanol, but fainter, and that it's virtually impossible to detect, by flavor or odor, at least, methanol in an ethanol solution. Fortunately, almost nothing you can do simply fermenting and distilling will give you dangerous levels of methanol, and that's helped by the fact that the antidote for methanol poisoning is drinking ethanol.

        http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm

        http://www.cen.iitb.ac.in/cen/usage-policies/msds/methanol.pdf

        So, simply put, methanol is not the problem, but it sure as hell is not the solution. The cases we hear of methanol in spirits causing death and blindness are the results of unscrupulous sellers mixing very cheap methanol into their liquors to give similar (at first!!) intoxication to the more expensive ethanol. The main reason they can get away with it, before people start dying, at least, is that nobody can taste methanol in ethanol.

        As far as added flavor and complexity, there are lots of highly-flavored compounds that can be created by fermentation and distilling. We call these "congeners", and in the correct trace amounts these can give certain liquors their characteristic flavors and odors (and possibly headaches).

        Some of these are acetone, acetaldehyde, ethyl acetate, ethyl proprionate, amyl alchol, and a bunch of others, Never never NEVER add methanol to your liquor!!!



        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is poison, which is true, but that ethanol is an antidote
        > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: last2blast last2blast@...

        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
        > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
        >
        >
        >  
        > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
        >
        > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
        >
        > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
        >
        > How do you determine when to cut?
        > â€" Temperature?
        > â€" Smell?

        >
        > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste and smell.
        >
        > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
        >
        > Robert
        >


      • Dale Brinley
        Thanks for the info, I don t add methanol to my liquor.   I guess I didn t word my response very well.  I ordered your book, by the way.  Still waiting for
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 18, 2013
          Thanks for the info, I don't add methanol to my liquor.   I guess I didn't word my response very well.  I ordered your book, by the way.  Still waiting for it. 



          From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:34 PM
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts

           
          Dale,

          For the first part, congratulations on getting such smooth liquor, although I'm not exactly sure how you did it keeping foreshots and tails.

          With regards to the methanol, everything I've ever read, including the 2 MSDS's in the links here, say that methanol had a very similar taste to ethanol, but fainter, and that it's virtually impossible to detect, by flavor or odor, at least, methanol in an ethanol solution. Fortunately, almost nothing you can do simply fermenting and distilling will give you dangerous levels of methanol, and that's helped by the fact that the antidote for methanol poisoning is drinking ethanol.

          http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm

          http://www.cen.iitb.ac.in/cen/usage-policies/msds/methanol.pdf

          So, simply put, methanol is not the problem, but it sure as hell is not the solution. The cases we hear of methanol in spirits causing death and blindness are the results of unscrupulous sellers mixing very cheap methanol into their liquors to give similar (at first!!) intoxication to the more expensive ethanol. The main reason they can get away with it, before people start dying, at least, is that nobody can taste methanol in ethanol.

          As far as added flavor and complexity, there are lots of highly-flavored compounds that can be created by fermentation and distilling. We call these "congeners", and in the correct trace amounts these can give certain liquors their characteristic flavors and odors (and possibly headaches).

          Some of these are acetone, acetaldehyde, ethyl acetate, ethyl proprionate, amyl alchol, and a bunch of others, Never never NEVER add methanol to your liquor!!!

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks
          for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is poison, which is true, but that ethanol is an antidote
          > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: last2blast last2blast@...
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
          > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
          >
          >
          >  
          > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
          >
          > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
          >
          > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
          >
          > How do you determine when to cut?
          > â€" Temperature?
          > â€" Smell?
          >
          > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste
          and smell.
          >
          > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
          >
          > Robert
          >


        • tgfoitwoods
          Dale, Did you order my book from me at Kelley B Arts, or me at Amazon? I ve gone back looking at orders from the last 3 months for both, and I don t see your
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 18, 2013
            Dale,

            Did you order my book from me at Kelley B Arts, or me at Amazon? I've gone back looking at orders from the last 3 months for both, and I don't see your name. I surely don't want to leave someone waiting who has ordered the book.

            Please let me know.

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the info, I don't add methanol to my liquor.   I guess I didn't word my response very well.  I ordered your book, by the way.  Still waiting for it. 
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
            > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:34 PM
            > Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts
            >
            >
            >  
            > Dale,
            >
            > For the first part, congratulations on getting such smooth liquor, although I'm not exactly sure how you did it keeping foreshots and tails.
            >
            > With regards to the methanol, everything I've ever read, including the 2 MSDS's in the links here, say that methanol had a very similar taste to ethanol, but fainter, and that it's virtually impossible to detect, by flavor or odor, at least, methanol in an ethanol solution. Fortunately, almost nothing you can do simply fermenting and distilling will give you dangerous levels of methanol, and that's helped by the fact that the antidote for methanol poisoning is drinking ethanol.
            >
            > http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm
            >
            > http://www.cen.iitb.ac.in/cen/usage-policies/msds/methanol.pdf
            >
            > So, simply put, methanol is not the problem, but it sure as hell is not the solution. The cases we hear of methanol in spirits causing death and blindness are the results of unscrupulous sellers mixing very cheap methanol into their liquors to give similar (at first!!) intoxication to the more expensive ethanol. The main reason they can get away with it, before people start dying, at least, is that nobody can taste methanol in ethanol.
            >
            > As far as added flavor and complexity, there are lots of highly-flavored compounds that can be created by fermentation and distilling. We call these "congeners", and in the correct trace amounts these can give certain liquors their characteristic flavors and odors (and possibly headaches).
            >
            > Some of these are acetone, acetaldehyde, ethyl acetate, ethyl proprionate, amyl alchol, and a bunch of others, Never never NEVER add methanol to your liquor!!!
            >
            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
            >
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley dalebrinley@ wrote:
            > >
            > > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is poison, which is true, but that
            > ethanol is an antidote
            > > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: last2blast last2blast@
            > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
            > > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
            > >
            > > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
            > >
            > > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
            > >
            > > How do you determine when to cut?
            > > â€" Temperature?
            > > â€" Smell?
            > >
            > > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste and smell.
            > >
            > > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
            > >
            > > Robert
            > >
            >
          • waljaco
            Methanol can make you blind and even kill. Propanol will give you a headache. wal
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 19, 2013
              Methanol can make you blind and even kill. Propanol will give you a headache.
              wal

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is poison, which is true, but that ethanol is an antidote
              > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
              > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
              >
              >
              >  
              > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
              >
              > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
              >
              > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
              >
              > How do you determine when to cut?
              > â€" Temperature?
              > â€" Smell?
              >
              > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste and smell.
              >
              > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
              >
              > Robert
              >
            • Dale Brinley
              Amazon, the order says it has shipped.  Also, for everyone who has responded to my previous comment, I should clarify.  In my short description, I omitted
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 19, 2013
                Amazon, the order says it has shipped.  Also, for everyone who has responded to my previous comment, I should clarify.  In my short description, I omitted some steps.  Such as triple distilling and passing through a charcoal filter.  Along with previous cutting of the fore shots.  Perhaps my mistake was making some tongue in cheek comments.  I know the dangers of methanol and all the other nasty things that come in the fore shots. What I didn't count on was all the vitriolic comments.  I'm sure everyone is aware that there are infinite numbers of ways to enhance or detract from the flavor.  I know enough to stay away from those things that are unsafe.  So, to all those with constructive comments, thanks.  To those who only had negative comments against me personally, lighten up.  Don't take yourself so seriously. 



                From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:34 PM
                Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts

                 
                Dale,

                Did you order my book from me at Kelley B Arts, or me at Amazon? I've gone back looking at orders from the last 3 months for both, and I don't see your name. I surely don't want to leave someone waiting who has ordered the book.

                Please let me know.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for the info, I don't add methanol to my liquor.   I guess I didn't word my response very well.  I ordered your book, by the way.  Still waiting for it. 
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:34 PM
                > Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts
                >
                >
                >  
                > Dale,
                >
                > For the first part, congratulations on getting such smooth liquor, although I'm not exactly sure how you did it keeping foreshots and tails.
                >
                > With regards to the methanol, everything I've ever read, including the 2 MSDS's in the links here, say that methanol had a very similar taste to ethanol, but fainter, and that it's virtually impossible to detect, by flavor or odor, at least, methanol in an ethanol solution. Fortunately, almost nothing you can do simply fermenting and distilling will give you dangerous levels of methanol, and that's helped by the fact that the antidote for methanol poisoning is drinking ethanol.
                >
                > http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm
                >
                > http://www.cen.iitb.ac.in/cen/usage-policies/msds/methanol.pdf
                >
                > So, simply put, methanol is not the problem, but it sure as hell is not the solution. The cases we hear of methanol in spirits causing death and blindness are the results of unscrupulous sellers mixing very cheap methanol into their liquors to give similar (at first!!) intoxication to the more expensive ethanol. The main reason they can get away with it, before people start dying, at least, is that nobody can taste methanol in ethanol.
                >
                > As far as added flavor and complexity, there are lots of highly-flavored compounds that can be created by fermentation and distilling. We call these "congeners", and in the correct trace amounts these can give certain liquors their characteristic flavors and odors (and possibly headaches).
                >
                > Some of these are acetone, acetaldehyde, ethyl acetate, ethyl proprionate, amyl alchol, and a bunch of others, Never never NEVER add methanol to your liquor!!!
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                >
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley dalebrinley@ wrote:
                > >
                > > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is poison, which is true, but that
                > ethanol is an antidote
                > > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: last2blast last2blast@
                > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
                > > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
                > >
                > >
                > >  
                > > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
                > >
                > > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
                > >
                > > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
                > >
                > > How do you determine when to cut?
                > > â€" Temperature?
                > > â€" Smell?
                > >
                > > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste and smell.
                > >
                > > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
                > >
                > > Robert
                > >
                >


              • tgfoitwoods
                Dale, Sorry to be harsh with you, but mis-handling methanol is one of the very very few ways in this hobby that you can kill yourself. We d all be horrified to
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 19, 2013
                  Dale,

                  Sorry to be harsh with you, but mis-handling methanol is one of the very very few ways in this hobby that you can kill yourself. We'd all be horrified to have one of ours come to harm.

                  As for the book, I see now that Powell's is now also selling my book through Amazon, which gives us three possibilities. Either you bought my book from Powell's, or you bought Kelley B Arts using a name other than Dale Brinley, or we have a problem. Let me know, please.

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Amazon, the order says it has shipped.  Also, for everyone who has responded to my previous comment, I should clarify.  In my short description, I omitted some steps.  Such as triple distilling and passing through a charcoal filter.  Along with previous cutting of the fore shots.  Perhaps my mistake was making some tongue in cheek comments.  I know the dangers of methanol and all the other nasty things that come in the fore shots. What I didn't count on was all the vitriolic comments.  I'm sure everyone is aware that there are infinite numbers of ways to enhance or detract from the flavor.  I know enough to stay away from those things that are unsafe.  So, to all those with constructive comments, thanks.  To those who only had negative comments against me personally, lighten up.  Don't take yourself so seriously. 
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
                  > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:34 PM
                  > Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Dale,
                  >
                  > Did you order my book from me at Kelley B Arts, or me at Amazon? I've gone back looking at orders from the last 3 months for both, and I don't see your name. I surely don't want to leave someone waiting who has ordered the book.
                  >
                  > Please let me know.
                  >
                  > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstillerMaking Fine Spirits
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley dalebrinley@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for the info, I don't add methanol to my liquor.   I guess I didn't word my response very well.  I ordered your book, by the way.  Still waiting for it. 
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@
                  > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:34 PM
                  > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > > Dale,
                  > >
                  > > For the first part, congratulations on getting such smooth liquor, although I'm not exactly sure how you did it keeping foreshots and tails.
                  > >
                  > > With regards to the methanol, everything I've ever read, including the 2 MSDS's in the links here, say that methanol had a very similar taste to ethanol, but fainter, and that it's virtually impossible to detect, by flavor or odor, at least, methanol in an ethanol solution. Fortunately, almost nothing you can do simply fermenting and distilling will give you dangerous levels of methanol, and that's helped by the fact that the antidote for methanol poisoning is drinking ethanol.
                  > >
                  > > http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm
                  > >
                  > > http://www.cen.iitb.ac.in/cen/usage-policies/msds/methanol.pdf
                  > >
                  > > So, simply put, methanol is not the problem, but it sure as hell is not the solution. The cases we hear of methanol in spirits causing death and blindness are the results of unscrupulous sellers mixing very cheap methanol into their liquors to give similar (at first!!) intoxication to the more expensive ethanol. The main reason they can get away with it, before people start dying, at least, is that nobody can taste methanol in ethanol.
                  > >
                  > > As far as added flavor and complexity, there are lots of highly-flavored compounds that can be created by fermentation and distilling. We call these "congeners", and in the correct trace amounts these can give certain liquors their characteristic flavors and odors (and possibly headaches).
                  > >
                  > > Some of these are acetone, acetaldehyde, ethyl acetate, ethyl proprionate, amylalchol, and a bunch of others, Never never NEVER add methanol to your liquor!!!
                  > >
                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley dalebrinley@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is
                  > poison, which is true, but that
                  > > ethanol is an antidote
                  > > > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ________________________________
                  > > > From: last2blast last2blast@
                  > > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
                  > > > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >  
                  > > > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
                  > > >
                  > > > How do you determine when to cut?
                  > > > â€" Temperature?
                  > > > â€" Smell?
                  > > >
                  > > > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste and smell.
                  > > >
                  > > > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
                  > > >
                  > > > Robert
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • RLB
                  He might have purchased a used book. Robert ________________________________ From: tgfoitwoods To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 19, 2013
                    He might have purchased a used book.

                    Robert


                    From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 9:53 AM
                    Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts

                     
                    Dale,

                    Sorry to be harsh with you, but mis-handling methanol is one of the very very few ways in this hobby that you can kill yourself. We'd all be horrified to have one of ours come to harm.

                    As for the book, I see now that Powell's is now also selling my book through Amazon, which gives us three possibilities. Either you bought my book from Powell's, or you bought Kelley B Arts using a name other than Dale Brinley, or we have a problem. Let me know, please.

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


                  • Dale Brinley
                    You re right, it was sold by Powell s. Bought in my name.  Est. delivery 3/15 - 4/01.  Should be arriving any day now. ________________________________ From:
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 19, 2013
                      You're right, it was sold by Powell's. Bought in my name.  Est. delivery 3/15 - 4/01.  Should be arriving any day now.



                      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 8:53 AM
                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts

                       
                      Dale,

                      Sorry to be harsh with you, but mis-handling methanol is one of the very very few ways in this hobby that you can kill yourself. We'd all be horrified to have one of ours come to harm.

                      As for the book, I see now that Powell's is now also selling my book through Amazon, which gives us three possibilities. Either you bought my book from Powell's, or you bought Kelley B Arts using a name other than Dale Brinley, or we have a problem. Let me know, please.

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Amazon, the order says it has shipped.  Also, for everyone who has responded to my previous comment, I should clarify.  In my short description, I omitted some steps.  Such as triple distilling and passing through a charcoal filter.  Along with previous cutting of the fore shots.  Perhaps my mistake was making some tongue in cheek comments.  I know the dangers of methanol and all the other nasty things that come in the fore shots. What I didn't count on was all the vitriolic comments.  I'm sure everyone is aware that there are infinite numbers of ways to enhance or detract from the flavor.  I know enough to stay away from those things that are unsafe.  So, to all those with constructive comments, thanks.  To those who only had negative comments against me personally, lighten up.  Don't take yourself so seriously. 
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:34 PM
                      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Dale,
                      >
                      > Did you order my book from me at Kelley B Arts, or me at Amazon? I've gone back looking at orders from the last 3 months for both, and I don't see your name. I surely don't want to leave someone waiting who has ordered the book.
                      >
                      > Please let me know.
                      >
                      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstillerMaking Fine Spirits
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley dalebrinley@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the info, I don't add methanol to my liquor.   I guess I didn't word my response very well.  I ordered your book, by the way.  Still waiting for it. 
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@
                      > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:34 PM
                      > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > > Dale,
                      > >
                      > > For the first part, congratulations on getting such smooth liquor, although I'm not exactly sure how you did it keeping foreshots and tails.
                      > >
                      > > With regards to the methanol, everything I've ever read, including the 2 MSDS's in the links here, say that methanol had a very similar taste to ethanol, but fainter, and that it's virtually impossible to detect, by flavor or odor, at least, methanol in an ethanol solution. Fortunately, almost nothing you can do simply fermenting and distilling will give you dangerous levels of methanol, and that's helped by the fact that the antidote for methanol poisoning is drinking ethanol.
                      > >
                      > > http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm
                      > >
                      > > http://www.cen.iitb.ac.in/cen/usage-policies/msds/methanol.pdf
                      > >
                      > > So, simply put, methanol is not the problem, but it sure as hell is not the solution. The cases we hear of methanol in spirits causing death and blindness are the results of unscrupulous sellers mixing very cheap methanol into their liquors to give similar (at first!!) intoxication to the more expensive ethanol. The main reason they can get away with it, before people start dying, at least, is that nobody can taste methanol in ethanol.
                      > >
                      > > As far as added flavor and complexity, there are lots of highly-flavored compounds that can be created by fermentation and distilling. We call these "congeners", and in the correct trace amounts these can give certain liquors their characteristic flavors and odors (and possibly headaches).
                      > >
                      > > Some of these are acetone, acetaldehyde, ethyl acetate, ethyl proprionate, amylalchol, and a bunch of others, Never never NEVER add methanol to your liquor!!!
                      > >
                      > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley dalebrinley@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > This is my first reply and response to this group.  So, have mercy on me. As far as taste, I've been reading a lot of comments and picking up a lot of useful information. (Even bad information is useful) I've been able to convert my "corn wine" to a tasty  drink using my son as a taster.  His criteria is "if it doesn't cause me to make a face, it's pretty good".  My distilled "corn wine" is quite smooth and doesn't cause a face, and I can verify that. I use a pH balancer and corn meal and sugar and a good whiskey yeast and pour all the slop back into the mash and re-use it. The more I slop back (is that a proper term?), the better it gets.  The taste, straight up, with no ice, is better than I've ever tasted.  I don't cut out the fore shots or the end.  Having read about the Europeans who add methanol to their drinks for flavor, I though, why not, let's get creative. I've read that methanol is
                      > poison, which is true, but that
                      > > ethanol is an antidote
                      > > > for methanol poisoning.  Too much methanol in a drink will give you a head ache, but just the right amount adds flavor.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ________________________________
                      > > > From: last2blast last2blast@
                      > > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:55 PM
                      > > > Subject: [Distillers] TTB Cuts
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >  
                      > > > I am reading an 85 page presentation put on by TTB who controls spirit production in US:
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.ttb.gov/expo/presentations-black/s06-bw-ammended.pdf.
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes I know some of you old timers will hate this, but TTB states:
                      > > >
                      > > > How do you determine when to cut?
                      > > > â€" Temperature?
                      > > > â€" Smell?
                      > > >
                      > > > I guess they are not keen on the idea of taste and smell.
                      > > >
                      > > > This presentation is informative, and it helps to clear up some misconception for us US hobbyist who are thinking of going legal one day.
                      > > >
                      > > > Robert
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • tgfoitwoods
                      Thanks, Dale, I can relax now. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits ...
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 19, 2013
                        Thanks, Dale,

                        I can relax now.

                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You're right, it was sold by Powell's. Bought in my name.  Est. delivery 3/15 - 4/01.  Should be arriving any day now.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ----snip----
                      • Angelis
                        I m trying to make a coil out of 3/8 tubing to fit into a 2 inch pipe but don t think I can get it to it. Can I use 1/4 in or is that too small? Michael ...
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 19, 2013
                          I'm trying to make a coil out of 3/8 tubing to fit into a 2 inch pipe but don't think I can get it to it. Can I use 1/4 in or is that too small? 

                          Michael 

                          On Mar 19, 2013, at 8:35 PM, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                           

                          Thanks, Dale,

                          I can relax now.

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > You're right, it was sold by Powell's. Bought in my name.  Est. delivery 3/15 - 4/01.  Should be arriving any day now.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          ----snip----

                        • jsducote
                          Do you mean that you re having trouble winding the coil tight enough without kinking to use a 2 pipe as the water cooling jacket? If so, why limit yourself to
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 20, 2013
                            Do you mean that you're having trouble winding the coil tight enough without kinking to use a 2" pipe as the water cooling jacket? If so, why limit yourself to 2"? The water jacket pipe will not come into contact with your wash/distillate, so you can use any material. PVC is readily available in much larger diams.
                            -j

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Angelis <angelis1972@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm trying to make a coil out of 3/8 tubing to fit into a 2 inch pipe but don't think I can get it to it. Can I use 1/4 in or is that too small?
                            >
                            > Michael
                          • Angelis
                            Didn t even think about using PVC. Was not sure how it would hold up Michael
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 20, 2013
                              Didn't even think about using PVC. Was not sure how it would hold up

                              Michael 

                              On Mar 20, 2013, at 10:46 AM, "jsducote" <forlorntexan@...> wrote:

                               

                              Do you mean that you're having trouble winding the coil tight enough without kinking to use a 2" pipe as the water cooling jacket? If so, why limit yourself to 2"? The water jacket pipe will not come into contact with your wash/distillate, so you can use any material. PVC is readily available in much larger diams.
                              -j

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Angelis <angelis1972@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm trying to make a coil out of 3/8 tubing to fit into a 2 inch pipe but don't think I can get it to it. Can I use 1/4 in or is that too small?
                              >
                              > Michael

                            • girlguidebiscuit
                              This pdf will help you. It helped me. http://homedistiller.org/forum/download/file.php?id=20214   Do you mean that you re having trouble winding the coil
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 20, 2013
                                This pdf will help you. It helped me. http://homedistiller.org/forum/download/file.php?id=20214


                                 

                                Do you mean that you're having trouble winding the coil tight enough without kinking to use a 2" pipe as the water cooling jacket? If so, why limit yourself to 2"? The water jacket pipe will not come into contact with your wash/distillate, so you can use any material. PVC is readily available in much larger diams.
                                -j
                                _._,___

                              • RLB
                                Be very careful.  Water and steam will be 200+ and plastic melts 250 to 285, so a nick might cause a leak in that soft plastic. Robert
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 20, 2013
                                  Be very careful.  Water and steam will be 200+ and plastic melts 250 to 285, so a nick might cause a leak in that soft plastic.

                                  Robert


                                  From: Angelis <angelis1972@...>
                                  To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:42 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: TTB Cuts

                                   
                                  Didn't even think about using PVC. Was not sure how it would hold up

                                  Michael 


                                • doug.hood
                                  I made a condenser using 1/4 inch copper. To keep it from kinking, I bought the copper in a coil, unrolled it, taped one end and filled it with salt. I then
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 20, 2013
                                    I made a condenser using 1/4 inch copper. To keep it from kinking, I bought the copper in a coil, unrolled it, taped one end and filled it with salt. I then wrapped it around a pipe, the notched a bigger pipe, slid the bigger pipe over my inside coil and wrapped it back the other way. I then flared on the connections and hooked it up to the water hose. It took about three hours to sit there under pressure before it dissolved the salt and shot a stream of water out the other side. I came out nice, fits inside my 2" still and works well.
                                    Doug

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Angelis <angelis1972@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'm trying to make a coil out of 3/8 tubing to fit into a 2 inch pipe but don't think I can get it to it. Can I use 1/4 in or is that too small?
                                    >
                                    > Michael
                                    >
                                    > On Mar 19, 2013, at 8:35 PM, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Thanks, Dale,
                                    > >
                                    > > I can relax now.
                                    > >
                                    > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dale Brinley <dalebrinley@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > You're right, it was sold by Powell's. Bought in my name. Est. delivery 3/15 - 4/01. Should be arriving any day now.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > ----snip----
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • jsducote
                                    According to plasticpipe.org, the maximum suggested temperature for PVC is 150F, while max temp for CPVC & PEX is 210F. But unless I m envisaging the usage
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 21, 2013
                                      According to plasticpipe.org, the maximum suggested temperature for PVC is 150F, while max temp for CPVC & PEX is 210F. But unless I'm envisaging the usage incorrectly, this is for a cooling jacket around the condenser line, not the condenser itself. Do your coolants reach either of those temps? The only point to worry about might be where the condenser enters the jacket, but that could be made with a rubber or cork bung instead of directly touching the jacket end-cap.
                                      -j

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Be very careful.  Water and steam will be 200+ and plastic melts 250 to 285, so a nick might cause a leak in that soft plastic.
                                      >
                                      > Robert
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Angelis <angelis1972@...>
                                      >  
                                      > Didn't even think about using PVC. Was not sure how it would hold up
                                      >
                                      > Michael
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