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Re: Too smooth?

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  • David Eastham
    Robbie After initial stripping run I ended up with 9 litres of 38% ethanol. From this I got 510ml heads, 2.28 litres middles and stopped after 750ml tails
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 28, 2012
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      Robbie

      After initial stripping run I ended up with 9 litres of 38% ethanol. From this I got 510ml heads, 2.28 litres middles and stopped after 750ml tails collected (880ml theoretical amount)This adds up to 3.54 litres of 93% spirit, approx 14% heads, 62% middles and 24% tails.This was from a wash of 27 litres with 6.5kg sugar. Theoretical alcohol from the initial sg of 1.09 to final sg of 1.0 gives 12.2% alcohol in the initial wash (this equates to 12.2/100x27 = 3.29l of 100% or 3.54 litres of 93% ethanol)
      Cheers
      Dave E





      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails. Are
      > those percentages of the total amount distilled?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Robbie PS No such thing as Too Smooth
      >
      > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka. For me, my goal is
      > > smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor. Congratz.
      > >
      > > Robert
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > > *From:* David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
      > > *To:* Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > > *Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
      > > *Subject:* [Distillers] Too smooth?
      > >
      > >
      > > I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've
      > > taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50
      > > dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then
      > > after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's
      > > hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm
      > > feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed
      > > 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to
      > > add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body
      > > else experienced this?
      > > Dave E
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • David Eastham
      Hi Robert just answered the figures in previous post. I kept the temp steady at 78.1-78.2c throughout up to the tails which started at 78.2c and ended at 78.4c
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 28, 2012
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        Hi Robert just answered the figures in previous post. I kept the temp steady at 78.1-78.2c throughout up to the tails which started at 78.2c and ended at 78.4c when I stopped the still. I ran take off at about 550ml per hour throughout.
        Cheers
        Dave E

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, that was a little confusing.  If your wash is 100% and you produced 14% alcohol, you would have 86% waster and solids remaining.  If your 100% is of your 14% Ethanol, then your head was 14%, heart was 62%, and your tail was 24%.
        >
        > If your heart was 62% that would be an extremely deep heart cut that seems to defy smooth reasoning.  One would reason that a head would be 14%, heart 24%, and a tail of 62% seems more reasonable.  From my readings, they suggest head cut off at 180 F (80% abv.) and tail cut off at 200 F (60% to 65% abv.)  Some suggest a striping run down to 30% abv., but that still leave a quantity of Ethanol in their wash.  My interest is in spirits and industrial Ethanol, so I will be looking at some extreme tail cuts. 
        >
        > How much water did you use?
        > How much sugar did you start with?
        > What were your temp cut offs?
        >
        > Robert
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:13 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?
        >
        >
        >  
        > Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >  Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth
        >
        >
        > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > > 
        > >I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.
        > >
        > >Robert
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >________________________________
        > > From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
        > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > >Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
        > >Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
        > >
        > >
        > > 
        > >I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
        > >Dave E
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • David Eastham
        Cheers Ken, I never take off middles above 78.2c, my still maintains this temp for 4-6 hours till the tails arrive. Thanks for sharing your figures. Dave E
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 28, 2012
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          Cheers Ken, I never take off middles above 78.2c, my still maintains this temp for 4-6 hours till the tails arrive. Thanks for sharing your figures.
          Dave E
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "KM Services" <km_services@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dave,
          >
          > If it is of any help this is how I operate my still is from my files section
          > in New Distillers
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > RUNNING A REFLUX STILL.
          >
          > Here is a basic run down on what I do ..hope it helps.
          >
          > When you come to running the still cuts are the key to quality and you
          > should not be
          >
          > getting "Lower Grade" alcohol as these are heads and tails and should be
          > kept for
          >
          > redistilling as the good drinkable is ethanol and it here is a guide to
          > basically getting
          >
          > good "heart" to drink. The cuts consist of basically 4 components and if
          > making
          >
          > neutral alcohol, then only the ethanol should be kept (also called the
          > middle run or
          >
          > "hearts") - this requires a reflux still.
          >
          > 1st cut is the foreshot which is 50mls and is thrown away or used as a fire
          > starter and
          >
          > consists of and yes is potential for some methanol produced in all
          > fermentations -
          >
          > more so in grains and fruit musts, worts or mashes and less in sugar washes
          >
          > ( Do Not Freak Out See Note Below).
          >
          > Comment From Harry: Not all washes contain "methanol" per se. Only grain &
          > fruitbased
          >
          > washes have that "potential". But all washes DO contain low boiling point
          >
          > "contaminants". methanol is but one of many possibilities.
          >
          > And in these minute quantities it is (if present at all) way less than you
          > will find in a
          >
          > glass of ordinary orange juice, and WAY less than you will find in
          > commercial spirits
          >
          > * There is are some acetone (nail polish remover), ethyl acetates and other
          >
          > contaminating compounds in the Foreshots and Heads which are the lower
          >
          > boiling point contaminates and alcohols.
          >
          > * Acetone 56.5C (134F)
          >
          > * Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
          >
          > The fore shots should be taken very slowly (at 1>2 drops per second) by
          > cranking up
          >
          > the water flow to slow it down if running a CM Head as I do.
          >
          > 2nd cut is the Heads which for you still will be around 100mls to 200mls and
          > is kept
          >
          > and added to the next distil if you want neutral and primarily a fruity
          > smelling alcohol
          >
          > Ethyl acetate
          >
          > * 77.1C (171F) and within 1Deg C of ethanol (the good stuff)
          >
          > 3rd cut is the Heats or Middle which depends on how fussy you want to be
          > with this
          >
          > take and slower is better and try and keep the Head at around 78C to 80C for
          > this
          >
          > collect (the ethanol range) and collect say 2 litres then collect in 250ml
          > increments
          >
          > and if you can not control the head temperature or smell changes then
          > collect the
          >
          > balance as tails in a separate container (added to the heads for later
          > redistilling)Also
          >
          > monitor the Abv and do not collect below 70% ABV if going for neutral for
          >
          > flavouring or if I want really good Vodka I cut at about 90% ABV and collect
          > the rest
          >
          > as Tails
          >
          > 4th cut is the Tails and there is still plenty of ethanol in the cut but has
          > lots of flavour
          >
          > and smell which if you are using a grain mash for whiskey is collected in
          > small
          >
          > containers and blended to flavour, however, if making white spirits needs to
          > be cut out
          >
          > and the higher temp ones tend to smell of old wet socks!and this contains
          > the
          >
          > following alcohols
          >
          > * 2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
          >
          > * 1-Propanol 97C (207F)
          >
          > * Water 100C (212F)
          >
          > * Butanol 116C (241F)
          >
          > * Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
          >
          > * Furfural 161C (322F)
          >
          > The heads and the foreshots is the "Hangover Zone" so care with this cut
          > makes a
          >
          > better morning and the tails cut gives the clean good tasting alcohol.
          >
          > A golden rule is "do not be greedy" because that extra alcohol may well
          > contaminate
          >
          > the rest of the hearts take hence the reason for collecting in smaller
          > container when
          >
          > nearing the tails cut.
          >
          > Filtering will greatly improve any neutral, but the key is to cut it to
          > 50%ABV as
          >
          > carbon doesn't work at higher ABV's and the carbon must be saturated with
          > water not
          >
          > merely wetted.
          >
          > I use a Z filter and will rinse for 15 minutes the place my filled filter in
          > a bucket of
          >
          > water (weighed down) over night to completely saturate and then run my grog
          > through
          >
          > at least 3 times then cut to 37% to 40%ABV for drinking as Vodka or
          > flavouring?
          >
          > Aging etc.?
          >
          > Have Fun with this all engrossing hobby
          >
          > Cheers Ken Mc
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > cheers Ken Mc
          >
          > Moderator : <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers> Y!
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          >
          >
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          > l>
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Robbie Mabry
          > Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012 11:13 a.m.
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails. Are those
          > percentages of the total amount distilled?
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Robbie PS No such thing as Too Smooth
          >
          > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka. For me, my goal is
          > smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor. Congratz.
          >
          > Robert
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
          > Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've
          > taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50
          > dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then
          > after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's
          > hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm
          > feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed
          > 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to
          > add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body
          > else experienced this?
          > Dave E
          >
        • David Eastham
          Hi Rob I ve added my spreadsheet/method to the file section called trial vodka its an excel spreadsheet hope its of some use. Regards Dave E
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 28, 2012
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            Hi Rob I've added my spreadsheet/method to the file section called trial vodka its an excel spreadsheet hope its of some use.
            Regards
            Dave E

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, that was a little confusing.  If your wash is 100% and you produced 14% alcohol, you would have 86% waster and solids remaining.  If your 100% is of your 14% Ethanol, then your head was 14%, heart was 62%, and your tail was 24%.
            >
            > If your heart was 62% that would be an extremely deep heart cut that seems to defy smooth reasoning.  One would reason that a head would be 14%, heart 24%, and a tail of 62% seems more reasonable.  From my readings, they suggest head cut off at 180 F (80% abv.) and tail cut off at 200 F (60% to 65% abv.)  Some suggest a striping run down to 30% abv., but that still leave a quantity of Ethanol in their wash.  My interest is in spirits and industrial Ethanol, so I will be looking at some extreme tail cuts. 
            >
            > How much water did you use?
            > How much sugar did you start with?
            > What were your temp cut offs?
            >
            > Robert
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
            > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:13 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?
            >
            >
            >  
            > Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >  Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth
            >
            >
            > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > 
            > >I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.
            > >
            > >Robert
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >________________________________
            > > From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
            > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > >Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
            > >Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
            > >
            > >
            > > 
            > >I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
            > >Dave E
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Robbie Mabry
            Thanks Robert, That helps clear it up. This is a long way from the way my Father and Grandfather use to make it when I was a kid. Their interest was to
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 29, 2012
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              Thanks Robert,  That helps clear it up.  This is a long way from the way my Father and Grandfather use to make it when I was a kid.  Their interest was to supplement our income, so everything that came out of the still past the first pint was sold.  Scares me to think about it!

              On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:54 AM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
               

              Yes, that was a little confusing.  If your wash is 100% and you produced 14% alcohol, you would have 86% waster and solids remaining.  If your 100% is of your 14% Ethanol, then your head was 14%, heart was 62%, and your tail was 24%.

              If your heart was 62% that would be an extremely deep heart cut that seems to defy smooth reasoning.  One would reason that a head would be 14%, heart 24%, and a tail of 62% seems more reasonable.  From my readings, they suggest head cut off at 180 F (80% abv.) and tail cut off at 200 F (60% to 65% abv.)  Some suggest a striping run down to 30% abv., but that still leave a quantity of Ethanol in their wash.  My interest is in spirits and industrial Ethanol, so I will be looking at some extreme tail cuts. 

              How much water did you use?
              How much sugar did you start with?
              What were your temp cut offs?

              Robert



              From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:13 PM
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?

               
              Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?

              Thanks,
               Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth

              On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
               
              I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.

              Robert




              From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
              Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?

               
              I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
              Dave E







            • GGB
              zymurgybob wrote: ...As the boiling changes the respective concentrations of the liquid components in the wash, the boiling point will change, and the
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 30, 2012
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                zymurgybob wrote: "...As the boiling changes the respective concentrations of the liquid components in the wash, the boiling point will change, and the condensed vapors will progress from foreshots to heads, hearts, and tails..." and that's what distilling is all about."

                That's an excellent explanation, thank you Bob.

                If operating a reflux still, and as the amount of ethanol declines, does the distiller try to keep the head temperature at a specific point, by adjusting refluxing ratio and/or reflux condenser capacity?

                As an aside, a friend who is a pilot told me how air drops moisture as it is pushed up and over a mountain range. It seems to be a refluxing action...pressure drops, air cools, water condenses, air warms because of the condensing, some water re-evaporates and is pushed higher where it happens all over again and again.

                Paul
              • Er. Prashant Jha
                Thanks Bob and Ken Mc U both are awesome. Dave has fortunately made a good vodka but he doesnt believe that he done so. Thanks for the information Ken Mc.
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 31, 2012
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                  Thanks Bob and Ken Mc
                   
                  U both are awesome.

                  Dave has fortunately made a good vodka but he doesnt believe that he done so.

                  Thanks for the information Ken  Mc. Your explanation is very good.


                  On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:14 AM, GGB <self.adhesive@...> wrote:

                   

                  zymurgybob wrote: "...As the boiling changes the respective concentrations of the liquid components in the wash, the boiling point will change, and the condensed vapors will progress from foreshots to heads, hearts, and tails..." and that's what distilling is all about."

                  That's an excellent explanation, thank you Bob.

                  If operating a reflux still, and as the amount of ethanol declines, does the distiller try to keep the head temperature at a specific point, by adjusting refluxing ratio and/or reflux condenser capacity?

                  As an aside, a friend who is a pilot told me how air drops moisture as it is pushed up and over a mountain range. It seems to be a refluxing action...pressure drops, air cools, water condenses, air warms because of the condensing, some water re-evaporates and is pushed higher where it happens all over again and again.

                  Paul





                  --
                  Er. Prashant Jha
                  Asst. Engineer
                  Sri Renuka Sugars Limited


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