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Re: Sugar Replacement

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  • last2blast
    My thinking is the creation of new flavors during the mash process: corn is 70% sugar, artichoke is 17% sugar, and then toss in some onions. You have to cook
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 9, 2012
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      My thinking is the creation of new flavors during the mash process: corn is 70% sugar, artichoke is 17% sugar, and then toss in some onions. You have to cook it to bring out the sugars anyway, so what will the finished product taste like?

      From my understanding, flavor comes from sugars in ingredients, yeast, filtering, oak barrels, and legal flavoring. Since we are limited in the amount of flavor that can be added in the final step this means we need to bringing out more flavor in the mash and wash steps. Right now I am thinking of using anything that contains sugars just to see how they taste when combined. If they taste bad, then just turn it into vodka, Ethanol fuel, or cleaning products.




      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > Onion contains Inulin (look it up). Just like Agave pinas (Tequila), you have to roast onions to light caramelisation to make them really sweet. And you need a SH!Tload to get a little product.
      >
      > There's way better options. Try looking up some listings on sugar content vs weight/mass for your sugar alternatives.
      >
      > HTH
      >
      > Slainte!
      > regards Harry
      > Group Owner
      > ==============================
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "last2blast" <last2blast@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I am hoping you will find this to be as interesting as me.
      > >
      > > Everyone knows about sugar in producing Ethanol, but I have come across interesting plants, fruits, and vegetables that can be used to replace sugar:
      > >
      > > Honey
      > > Grapes
      > > Stevie
      > > Artichokes
      > > Bananas
      > > Maple Syrup
      > > Barley
      > > Carob bean
      > > ONION
      > > cassava
      > > corn
      > > carrots
      > > potatoes
      > > raisins
      > > Apples
      > >
      > > I was very surprised to learn that onions are very sweet. I am sure there are many more plants, fruits, and vegetables that could be used in place of sugar. I have to try the onion just to see how it does at producing ethanol.
      > >
      >
    • Derek Hamlet
      ... I m a little confused. The list of materials is a sugar replacement list; ie. substitutes for the pleasant taste. I don t think it has much to do with
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 9, 2012
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        At 01:12 PM 12/8/2012, you wrote:
        >
        >
        >I am hoping you will find this to be as interesting as me.
        >
        >Everyone knows about sugar in producing Ethanol, but I have come
        >across interesting plants, fruits, and vegetables that can be used
        >to replace sugar:

        I'm a little confused. The list of materials is a sugar replacement
        list; ie. substitutes for the pleasant taste.
        I don't think it has much to do with organic materials that convert
        to alcohol. Eg. stevia is a sugar replacement. It tastes sweet but
        there not much in its chemical makeup that will convert to
        alcohol. Ditto potatoes. They contain lots of starch which with the
        appropriate enzymes will convert the starch to fermentable sugars. No
        enzymes not much alcohol. The myth of vodka from potatoes is more of
        a myth than reality because without something to convert all that
        starch there is very little natural sugar for the yeast to convert.
        Personally I remain amused by the current "branding" fad of special
        vodkas. One can produce relatively smooth vodak with good
        ingredients and careful distilling, but the flavors don't exactly
        compete with the complexities of alcohols produced by other
        methods. Hell, aficianados of Irish vs Scottish whisky/whiskeys can
        argue for hours about the subject, threaten war, but eventually get
        so drunk sampling each other's wares that they agree to disagree, don
        their kilts, grab their Scottish vs. Irish bagpipes and go home.



        Derek
      • last2blast
        All I can say is what I have read about the sugar content in items from the list. I have used sugar to date, but my quest is to experiment with these and
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 9, 2012
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          All I can say is what I have read about the sugar content in items from the list. I have used sugar to date, but my quest is to experiment with these and other items.

          Potato has 17% sugar according to what I have read, so if it has sugar you can make vodka.

          Stevia is 300 times sweeter than sugar, but I have no idea if you could use it in mash as a means of producing Ethanol until experiments are conducted. My 1 gallon sugar wash uses 3 cups of sugar after re-pitch. Can I use 1 cup of Stevia to produce the same amount of Ethanol?

          Yes it is true there are many people who can argue "Irish vs Scottish whisky/whiskeys", but those are not the ones who I am hoping to target with my experimentation for new flavors. I am new to distillation and production of Ethanol. My path can follow everyone before me, or I can forge a new path in Ethanol production. One time my Business Professor told our class, "If you see everyone going in one direction, you go in the opposite direction, and you will be there first when their course changes."

          In my opinion, the future of quality spirits will be flavors that focus on women. My goal is spirit that are so smooth that it will seem like you are drinking flavored water.






          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
          >
          > At 01:12 PM 12/8/2012, you wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >I am hoping you will find this to be as interesting as me.
          > >
          > >Everyone knows about sugar in producing Ethanol, but I have come
          > >across interesting plants, fruits, and vegetables that can be used
          > >to replace sugar:
          >
          > I'm a little confused. The list of materials is a sugar replacement
          > list; ie. substitutes for the pleasant taste.
          > I don't think it has much to do with organic materials that convert
          > to alcohol. Eg. stevia is a sugar replacement. It tastes sweet but
          > there not much in its chemical makeup that will convert to
          > alcohol. Ditto potatoes. They contain lots of starch which with the
          > appropriate enzymes will convert the starch to fermentable sugars. No
          > enzymes not much alcohol. The myth of vodka from potatoes is more of
          > a myth than reality because without something to convert all that
          > starch there is very little natural sugar for the yeast to convert.
          > Personally I remain amused by the current "branding" fad of special
          > vodkas. One can produce relatively smooth vodak with good
          > ingredients and careful distilling, but the flavors don't exactly
          > compete with the complexities of alcohols produced by other
          > methods. Hell, aficianados of Irish vs Scottish whisky/whiskeys can
          > argue for hours about the subject, threaten war, but eventually get
          > so drunk sampling each other's wares that they agree to disagree, don
          > their kilts, grab their Scottish vs. Irish bagpipes and go home.
          >
          >
          >
          > Derek
          >
        • Eddie Hoskin
          As the previous gent mentioned, for potatoes you need to convert the starch to sugar.  That means either using an amylase additive and cooking it at 152ºF,
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 9, 2012
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            As the previous gent mentioned, for potatoes you need to convert the starch to sugar.  That means either using an amylase additive and cooking it at 152ºF, or using some Amylase bearing grains, such as malted barley.

            I have made vodka from potatoes, and my humble opinion is thus:  yes, you can make it, and it's fun to say you did it, but it's not offering anything 'special', and boy is it messy!  You'd be much happier finding a better sugar source...ones that have husks or can be pressed (ie, grains and fruits) will yield much more appreciable results.

            If you're looking for an off-the-wall sugar source, and have too much time on your hands, try making sake from rice.  It'll already be ~19%, so distilling is optional, but unnecessary.  And, it's cheap.  But it will take quite a while to ferment, and it is messy.

            The sweetness from stevia comes not from sugar, but a compound that is much sweeter than sugar.  No sugar = no alcohol, so don't bother with it.

            HTH,
            Eddie



            From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 2:46 PM
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sugar Replacement

             
            All I can say is what I have read about the sugar content in items from the list. I have used sugar to date, but my quest is to experiment with these and other items.

            Potato has 17% sugar according to what I have read, so if it has sugar you can make vodka.

            Stevia is 300 times sweeter than sugar, but I have no idea if you could use it in mash as a means of producing Ethanol until experiments are conducted. My 1 gallon sugar wash uses 3 cups of sugar after re-pitch. Can I use 1 cup of Stevia to produce the same amount of Ethanol?

            Yes it is true there are many people who can argue "Irish vs Scottish whisky/whiskeys", but those are not the ones who I am hoping to target with my experimentation for new flavors. I am new to distillation and production of Ethanol. My path can follow everyone before me, or I can forge a new path in Ethanol production. One time my Business Professor told our class, "If you see everyone going in one direction, you go in the opposite direction, and you will be there first when their course changes."

            In my opinion, the future of quality spirits will be flavors that focus on women. My goal is spirit that are so smooth that it will seem like you are drinking flavored water.

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 01:12 PM 12/8/2012, you wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >I am hoping you will find this to be as interesting as me.
            > >
            > >Everyone knows about sugar in producing Ethanol, but I have come
            > >across interesting plants, fruits, and vegetables that can be used
            > >to replace sugar:
            >
            > I'm a little confused. The list of materials is a sugar replacement
            > list; ie. substitutes for the pleasant taste.
            > I don't think it has much to do with organic materials that convert
            > to alcohol. Eg. stevia is a sugar replacement. It tastes sweet but
            > there not much in its chemical makeup that will convert to
            > alcohol. Ditto potatoes. They contain lots of starch which with the
            > appropriate enzymes will convert the starch to fermentable sugars. No
            > enzymes not much alcohol. The myth of vodka from potatoes is more of
            > a myth than reality because without something to convert all that
            > starch there is very little natural sugar for the yeast to convert.
            > Personally I remain amused by the current "branding" fad of special
            > vodkas. One can produce relatively smooth vodak with good
            > ingredients and careful distilling, but the flavors don't exactly
            > compete with the complexities of alcohols produced by other
            > methods. Hell, aficianados of Irish vs Scottish whisky/whiskeys can
            > argue for hours about the subject, threaten war, but eventually get
            > so drunk sampling each other's wares that they agree to disagree, don
            > their kilts, grab their Scottish vs. Irish bagpipes and go home.
            >
            >
            >
            > Derek
            >



          • last2blast
            Thanks for the info on stevia. Since it is not sugar, it would be a waste of my time. As for potatoes to produce vodka, like you said, Trying is the fun
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 9, 2012
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              Thanks for the info on stevia. Since it is not sugar, it would be a waste of my time.

              As for potatoes to produce vodka, like you said, "Trying" is the fun part of experimentation. My thoughts of using potatoes is similar to what I did as a child with carrots. I would grate carrots and press the juices out, so my plan is to grate potatoes into a fine pulp and extract the juice by pressing, and that would keep the mess to a minimum. That juice would then be heated up to 165 F. and yeast added once it cooled.

              Yes, you are correct in that I have too much time on my hands, but we learn by trying something new. I can read how bourbon is produced, but it does not give me the experience to make a good bourbon. Waiting 6 months to 6 years to learn how to make a good bourbon is less than ideal to me, so I have developed a process that should produce a finished bourbon within 1 or 2 month. It's legality is a gray area, but it should give me the experience I need to produce a good bourbon. I am not fond of the equipment used in the production of bourbon mash, so I redesigned the equipment to correct many of the problems associated with its production.

              I learn by reading, doing, and thinking out side of the box.

              Thanks for the info.

              Robert




              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Hoskin <eddie_hoskin@...> wrote:
              >
              > As the previous gent mentioned, for potatoes you need to convert the starch to sugar.  That means either using an amylase additive and cooking it at 152ºF, or using some Amylase bearing grains, such as malted barley.
              >
              > I have made vodka from potatoes, and my humble opinion is thus:  yes, you can make it, and it's fun to say you did it, but it's not offering anything 'special', and boy is it messy!  You'd be much happier finding a better sugar source...ones that have husks or can be pressed (ie, grains and fruits) will yield much more appreciable results.
              >
              > If you're looking for an off-the-wall sugar source, and have too much time on your hands, try making sake from rice.  It'll already be ~19%, so distilling is optional, but unnecessary.  And, it's cheap.  But it will take quite a while to ferment, and it is messy.
              >
              > The sweetness from stevia comes not from sugar, but a compound that is much sweeter than sugar.  No sugar = no alcohol, so don't bother with it.
              >
              > HTH,
              > Eddie
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 2:46 PM
              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sugar Replacement
              >
              >
              >  
              > All I can say is what I have read about the sugar content in items from the list. I have used sugar to date, but my quest is to experiment with these and other items.
              >
              > Potato has 17% sugar according to what I have read, so if it has sugar you can make vodka.
              >
              > Stevia is 300 times sweeter than sugar, but I have no idea if you could use it in mash as a means of producing Ethanol until experiments are conducted. My 1 gallon sugar wash uses 3 cups of sugar after re-pitch. Can I use 1 cup of Stevia to produce the same amount of Ethanol?
              >
              > Yes it is true there are many people who can argue "Irish vs Scottish whisky/whiskeys", but those are not the ones who I am hoping to target with my experimentation for new flavors. I am new to distillation and production of Ethanol. My path can follow everyone before me, or I can forge a new path in Ethanol production. One time my Business Professor told our class, "If you see everyone going in one direction, you go in the opposite direction, and you will be there first when their course changes."
              >
              > In my opinion, the future of quality spirits will be flavors that focus on women. My goal is spirit that are so smooth that it will seem like you are drinking flavored water.
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@> wrote:
              > >
              > > At 01:12 PM 12/8/2012, you wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >I am hoping you will find this to be as interesting as me.
              > > >
              > > >Everyone knows about sugar in producing Ethanol, but I have come
              > > >across interesting plants, fruits, and vegetables that can be used
              > > >to replace sugar:
              > >
              > > I'm a little confused. The list of materials is a sugar replacement
              > > list; ie. substitutes for the pleasant taste.
              > > I don't think it has much to do with organic materials that convert
              > > to alcohol. Eg. stevia is a sugar replacement. It tastes sweet but
              > > there not much in its chemical makeup that will convert to
              > > alcohol. Ditto potatoes. They contain lots of starch which with the
              > > appropriate enzymes will convert the starch to fermentable sugars. No
              > > enzymes not much alcohol. The myth of vodka from potatoes is more of
              > > a myth than reality because without something to convert all that
              > > starch there is very little natural sugar for the yeast to convert.
              > > Personally I remain amused by the current "branding" fad of special
              > > vodkas. One can produce relatively smooth vodak with good
              > > ingredients and careful distilling, but the flavors don't exactly
              > > compete with the complexities of alcohols produced by other
              > > methods. Hell, aficianados of Irish vs Scottish whisky/whiskeys can
              > > argue for hours about the subject, threaten war, but eventually get
              > > so drunk sampling each other's wares that they agree to disagree, don
              > > their kilts, grab their Scottish vs. Irish bagpipes and go home.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Derek
              > >
              >
            • Fredrick Lee
              ... Without some additional enzymes, that recipe will result in potato soup with yeast in it. Enzymes are required to convert potato starch into fermentable
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 9, 2012
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                > I would grate carrots and press the juices out, so my plan is to grate potatoes into a fine pulp and extract the juice by pressing, and that would keep the mess to a minimum. That juice would then be heated up to 165 F. and yeast added once it cooled.


                Without some additional enzymes, that recipe will result in potato soup with yeast in it. Enzymes are required to convert potato starch into fermentable sugars. The enzymes must be added, potatoes don't have enough distatic power to convert starch. These enzymes will be debranched at about 122-133°F and make the soup more viscous, 152°F will activate them and start breaking down starches, and loosened up again at 168°F to release that last 2% of starch, and finally denatured and destroyed at higher than 168°F. If you want the most fermentable sugar from potatoes, that's the way. Lots of people have been fermenting all kinds of food for thousands of years. Most of those on that list are better for the dinner plate than the still. Onion is just downright slimy airplane glue when fermented.

                On Dec 9, 2012, at 7:48 PM, "last2blast" <last2blast@...> wrote:

                > I would grate carrots and press the juices out, so my plan is to grate potatoes into a fine pulp and extract the juice by pressing, and that would keep the mess to a minimum. That juice would then be heated up to 165 F. and yeast added once it cooled.
              • last2blast
                Thanks again for the temp info. 152 F to 165 F sound like a better range. If you had not realized it as of yet, I am not a fan of fermenting slime. (That
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 9, 2012
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                  Thanks again for the temp info. 152 F to 165 F sound like a better range. If you had not realized it as of yet, I am not a fan of fermenting slime. (That lesson was learned in my sugar wash where everything but the kitchen sink was thrown into ferment. Wow that sugar wash was nasty looking.) My none grain experiments will be limited to grating and pressing to extract juices. Yes, it might be better to ferment grapes, peaches, apples, or etc. with the pulp, but I will pass on those messes for now.

                  Robert


                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I would grate carrots and press the juices out, so my plan is to grate potatoes into a fine pulp and extract the juice by pressing, and that would keep the mess to a minimum. That juice would then be heated up to 165 F. and yeast added once it cooled.
                  >
                  >
                  > Without some additional enzymes, that recipe will result in potato soup with yeast in it. Enzymes are required to convert potato starch into fermentable sugars. The enzymes must be added, potatoes don't have enough distatic power to convert starch. These enzymes will be debranched at about 122-133°F and make the soup more viscous, 152°F will activate them and start breaking down starches, and loosened up again at 168°F to release that last 2% of starch, and finally denatured and destroyed at higher than 168°F. If you want the most fermentable sugar from potatoes, that's the way. Lots of people have been fermenting all kinds of food for thousands of years. Most of those on that list are better for the dinner plate than the still. Onion is just downright slimy airplane glue when fermented.
                  >
                  > On Dec 9, 2012, at 7:48 PM, "last2blast" <last2blast@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I would grate carrots and press the juices out, so my plan is to grate potatoes into a fine pulp and extract the juice by pressing, and that would keep the mess to a minimum. That juice would then be heated up to 165 F. and yeast added once it cooled.
                  >
                • Ed Barcik
                  IMHO, HFCS is the best if you want clean and easy fermenting, never had one hang, been using it for 4 years.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 10, 2012
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                    IMHO, HFCS is the best if you want clean and easy fermenting, never had one hang, been using it for 4 years.

                  • last2blast
                    The main reason I am looking at sugar replacements is because of weather conditions that affect crops such as corn and sugar cane. If the US corn belt drought
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 11, 2012
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                      The main reason I am looking at sugar replacements is because of weather conditions that affect crops such as corn and sugar cane. If the US corn belt drought lasts for a long time, we will have a problem obtaining grains such as corn and HFCS which are made from corn. Some people might say, So what! You only then have to look at Hawaii, Texas, Louisiana, and Florida that are all receiving less rainfall than normal. My experiments will address finding other sources of sugar and extracting those sugars for the production spirits.

                      Are there weeds that would normally be harmful to humans, but contain high levels of sugar that will produce a wonderful spirit?

                      Just a thought

                      Robert



                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Barcik" <edbar44@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > IMHO, HFCS is the best if you want clean and easy fermenting, never had one
                      > hang, been using it for 4 years.
                      >
                    • Derek Hamlet
                      ... Sometimes I think we need to remember that there is nothing new about distilling. Absolutely improvements are made in still building technology. Science
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 11, 2012
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                        At 12:47 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >The main reason I am looking at sugar replacements is because of
                        >weather conditions that affect crops such as corn and sugar cane. If
                        >the US corn belt drought lasts for a long time, we will have a
                        >problem obtaining grains such as corn and HFCS which are made from
                        >corn. Some people might say, So what! You only then have to look at
                        >Hawaii, Texas, Louisiana, and Florida that are all receiving less
                        >rainfall than normal. My experiments will address finding other
                        >sources of sugar and extracting those sugars for the production spirits.
                        >
                        >Are there weeds that would normally be harmful to humans, but
                        >contain high levels of sugar that will produce a wonderful spirit?

                        Sometimes I think we need to remember that there is nothing new about
                        distilling. Absolutely improvements are made in still building
                        technology. Science brings new enzymes/yeasts etc. to market. But,
                        mother nature provides the raw materials for the must. If it's
                        natural, contains high sugars it's been tried. Hence the thumbs down
                        on potatoes.
                        If it's alcohol one wants and you are willing to mix it or add
                        flavorings then neutral spirit is my advice. If you want the
                        adventure of pot stills with inherent flavors, then some form of
                        grains is probably the way to go. Yeah I know I didn't say anything about rum.


                        Derek
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