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Re: Soxhlet Extractors & Rotary Evaporators

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  • geoff burrows
    Hi, I think what Daryl bee, is inferring is the old well established proven steam engineering principles of cooling steam which has enough power to lift vast
    Message 1 of 20 , May 11, 2012
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      Hi,

      I think what Daryl bee, is inferring is the old well established proven steam engineering principles of cooling steam which has enough power to lift vast steel pistons and I mean big pistons with a 2 foot diameter piston head.  This is only from memory so please bear with me The old steam engineers would inject pressurized steam into the cylinder head when the piston was dropping to bottom dead centre then they would condense the steam with a fine spray of  cold water creating a vacum.  This created a very powerful vacuum in the bore which dragged the piston back up the bore moving a big overhead oak rocking  beam in the process. These really old stem machines were used to pump water out of the mines and to pump sewage in London.  I’ve probably got it all arse about tit, so research it it’s worth looking into.  But it was the sudden cooling of the steam that created the colossal vacuum. 

           Not satisfied with using it once they would use the exiting steam and inject it into a smaller steam engine and usually a third time as well.  Read up on the principle of extracting power from steam with steam engines and they will explain it better.

      Geoff       

    • daryl_bee
      Just in from a night out chasing green women & I read your post 5 minutes ago - I m still chuckling :-D Here s my issue. I have a rotary evaporator and a Welch
      Message 2 of 20 , May 12, 2012
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        Just in from a night out chasing green women & I read your post 5 minutes ago - I'm still chuckling :-D

        Here's my issue. I have a rotary evaporator and a Welch vacuum pump. If I don't use the pump it will essentially be regular (hot) distillation. i.e. why use the rotary evaporator at all. If I turn my pump on and let it reach *full* vacuum capability I could set up in my deep freezer and boil so hard it will overpower the condenser. I want to finely control it somewhere in between.

        On a regular still you tweak the heat input to control the boil, taking the fluid temperature up to the boiling point. Here you want to tweak the vacuum input to control the boil, taking the boiling point down to the fluid temperature. In fact with this I can control both. I'll be cooling with tap water so some heat will be added in the bain marie. I'll note that they do make cold feet condensers for use with liquid nitrogen for running a full hard vacuum at low temperature although that's way beyond what I want to do. I just want to boil at 30-40C. In essence I need to put some "black box' between the pump and the evaporator for vacuum control.

        I have no experience playing with/controlling vacuums. Lab controllers are expensive. Maybe there's no way around it. I've heard that simple needle valves are sometimes used although I don't know how accurate or steady they are. An idea just sprang to mind that maybe I should go off and look into set-ups for plastic bag vacuum clamps used in woodworking.

        Aye, it just might work... :-)


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well, you seem to be drinking good stuff. What is it, Romulan ale?
        >
        > Anyway, my suggestion would be to use bain marie and use the cooling water to create enough vacuum without the rolling boiler stuff. That would have no moving parts and you could then adjust the vacuum (i.e. water flow) and heating to fit your running parameters that you want for each batch
        >
        > Slainte, Riku
      • daryl_bee
        I think I ve just found it!!! There s an absolutely wonderful site which explains a vacuum system very well;
        Message 3 of 20 , May 12, 2012
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          I think I've just found it!!! There's an absolutely wonderful site which explains a vacuum system very well;

          http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/concept.htm There's even a PDF download
          http://www.joewoodworker.com/docs/ProjectEVS.pdf

          The rig is for vacuum clamping. It's very similar to an air compressor set-up but with negative pressure. In my application I'll need a way better high resolution controller (switches the pump on and off between the two vacuum set points similar to a heat controller) but that's basically the set-up right there. Now I understand what all is needed and what each part does. Since my pump is much bigger (doesn't have to be) I'll likely need larger components too (my vacuum port is 1.5" pipe thread because the pump is over 10CFM). I'm even thinking I can get large cheap reservoir air tanks locally. Larger tanks should allow me to set the upper and lower bounds on the vacuum much closer without start/stopping the pump all the time. That should also allow for smoother operation.

          I'm inexpressibly grateful to your post for in replying to it the seed of an idea came. I hope others here, or in future, might find the above site as useful as I have.

          Oh happy day!!

          Cheers

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daryl_bee" <darylbender@...> wrote:
          >
          > Just in from a night out chasing green women & I read your post 5 minutes ago - I'm still chuckling :-D
          >
          > Here's my issue. I have a rotary evaporator and a Welch vacuum pump. If I don't use the pump it will essentially be regular (hot) distillation. i.e. why use the rotary evaporator at all. If I turn my pump on and let it reach *full* vacuum capability I could set up in my deep freezer and boil so hard it will overpower the condenser. I want to finely control it somewhere in between.
          >
          > On a regular still you tweak the heat input to control the boil, taking the fluid temperature up to the boiling point. Here you want to tweak the vacuum input to control the boil, taking the boiling point down to the fluid temperature. In fact with this I can control both. I'll be cooling with tap water so some heat will be added in the bain marie. I'll note that they do make cold feet condensers for use with liquid nitrogen for running a full hard vacuum at low temperature although that's way beyond what I want to do. I just want to boil at 30-40C. In essence I need to put some "black box' between the pump and the evaporator for vacuum control.
          >
          > I have no experience playing with/controlling vacuums. Lab controllers are expensive. Maybe there's no way around it. I've heard that simple needle valves are sometimes used although I don't know how accurate or steady they are. An idea just sprang to mind that maybe I should go off and look into set-ups for plastic bag vacuum clamps used in woodworking.
          >
          > Aye, it just might work... :-)
          >
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Well, you seem to be drinking good stuff. What is it, Romulan ale?
          > >
          > > Anyway, my suggestion would be to use bain marie and use the cooling water to create enough vacuum without the rolling boiler stuff. That would have no moving parts and you could then adjust the vacuum (i.e. water flow) and heating to fit your running parameters that you want for each batch
          > >
          > > Slainte, Riku
          >
        • Timothy C Smoth
          My buddy used a cold finger set up that had food grade antifreeze running throughout it. It was chilled using a setup almost like an ice machine. Sent from
          Message 4 of 20 , May 14, 2012
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            My buddy used a cold finger set up that had food grade antifreeze running throughout it. It was chilled using a setup almost like an ice machine.

            Sent from Tim's iPhone
          • snoozer219
            ... Youve pricked my interest there about that process. Id be interested to hear more!
            Message 5 of 20 , May 15, 2012
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              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...> wrote:
              >
              > My buddy used a cold finger set up that had food grade antifreeze running throughout it. It was chilled using a setup almost like an ice machine.
              >
              > Sent from Tim's iPhone
              >
              Youve pricked my interest there about that process. Id be interested to hear more!
            • bob@4agoodauction.com
              3 Large barrels (99 Francois Freres Tonnellerie, St Romain Cote D Or, France, T, MT, Qualite CTB Certifiee no 1 Fot de Tradition Francaise). A picture can be
              Message 6 of 20 , May 15, 2012
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                3 Large barrels (99 Francois Freres Tonnellerie, St Romain Cote D’ Or, France, T, MT, Qualite CTB Certifiee no 1 Fot de Tradition Francaise). A picture can be found at http://www.4agoodauction.com/4a/current/mainpage.htm  There is supposed to be one more of these barrels coming in this afternoon.  Does anybody on the list have an idea of the value for a barrel? They look to be lightly charred on the inside. I don’t write very often and mostly lurk BUT this looks like it might be interesting. They look and I am guessing to be about 40 to 50 gallons.

                 

                Bob C

                 

              • White Bear
                Friends-   My Uncle use to test the ABV of his stripping run by collecting 5 drops of distillate on a small flat piece of metal such as a canning jar flat. 
                Message 7 of 20 , May 15, 2012
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                  Friends-
                    My Uncle use to test the ABV of his stripping run by collecting 5 drops of distillate on a small flat piece of metal such as a canning jar flat.  He would set it to flame and after it burned out, tip the flat and count the drops that drip off.
                    QUESTION:  would this be a reliable test for ABV?  If so, why or why not. 
                  Thanks
                  White Bear 
                • Bryan Bornais
                  Best thing to do would be to take a sample (enough to fill an alcoholometer jar). Experiment with number of drops, and test out your observations against the
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 15, 2012
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                    Best thing to do would be to take a sample (enough to fill an alcoholometer jar). Experiment with number of drops, and test out your observations against the true reading on your alcoholometer. It may be that it is consistent enough to give you a ball park idea of where you are in the run. Thanks for sharing this idea.
                     



                    From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:37:26 PM
                    Subject: [Distillers] Quick Question / ABV Test?

                     
                    Friends-
                      My Uncle use to test the ABV of his stripping run by collecting 5 drops of distillate on a small flat piece of metal such as a canning jar flat.  He would set it to flame and after it burned out, tip the flat and count the drops that drip off.
                      QUESTION:  would this be a reliable test for ABV?  If so, why or why not. 
                    Thanks
                    White Bear 


                  • Timothy C Smoth
                    It s been a long time since I saw it. But I think it had some coils running inside of the chiller and a pump to circulate the anti freeze. He was using some
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 16, 2012
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                      It's been a long time since I saw it. But I think it had some coils running inside of the chiller and a pump to circulate the anti freeze. He was using some kind of plastic hose to connect everything. I would think stainless tubing would be the way to go if you could work it in.
                      The food grade antifreeze was purple. But I don't think it was the RV anti freeze. That's non toxic though.
                      I'll bet you could find a laboratory setup on line. I've never looked.

                      Sent from Tim's iPhone
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