## RE: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

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• Eddie, Bob..... brilliantly explained Thank you both for a decisively in depth and easy to understand explanation. Gavin To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com From:
Message 1 of 25 , Apr 22 10:33 AM
Eddie, Bob..... brilliantly explained

Thank you both for a decisively in depth and easy to understand explanation.

Gavin

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
From: zymurgybob@...
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:44:39 +0000
Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

Gavin,

Eddie's example of the cruise control controlling your car's speed is perfect to explain the PID. Now let me explain the thermostat principle (only we'd call it a "speedostat") to control the same car's speed.

To make your car work as a "speedostat", you'd decide on a speed to hold, say 50 miles per hour. Then start the engine, put the car in gear and jam the accelerator to the floor. When the car gets to 50 mph, keep your accelerator jammed to the floor, but turn off the ignition key. When the car slows some small amount below 50, with the accelerator still floored, turn the ignition back on again. Repeat as necessary, but always with the accelerator floored.

Your speed will stay arbitrarily close to 50 mph, but I'm guessing you'll be able to tell the difference between the "speedostat" and your car's regular (PID) cruise control.

If this sounds like an unrealistically goofy speed control, some WWI aircraft controlled engine speed with a "blip" switch, kinda like a doorbell button. When you pushed it, it grounded the magneto, the engine turned off, and the plane slowed down. When you didn't push the button, the engine stayed on and the plane tried to go its maximum speed. This is exactly how that Johnson control is controlling your HERMS temperature, by turning it off and on at full throttle.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
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> Ok, I've done enough research on a PID controller to know that I don't understand what the hell anyone is talking about. Can someone explain to me in terms and language that normal people use what a PID controller is?
>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> From: zymurgybob@...
> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:55:18 +0000
> Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
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> Gavin,
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> I can't say for sure, but the fact that you've seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you're flirting with a problem. I got looking for proportional controllers for that element, and found that PID's, a very sophisticated type of controller, can be had for about 20 USD.
> http://tinyurl.com/7k3dd8q
> I couldn't find a data sheet for this controller, but it may require a Solid State Relay in addition to the controller (if the SSR is not contained in the controller). Such a controller should reduce the tendency to scorch greatly.
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> I think I may get one of these for my proposed fermentation cabinet. My garage is a pretty chilly place, except during the summer when it's too warm to lager .
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> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
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> To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@... Let me know if you want your name removed.
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
> >
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> > My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.
> > I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).
> > An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).
> > Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.
> > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> > From: zymurgybob@
> > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
> > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
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> > Gavin,
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> > You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.
> >
> > Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.
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> > How does the heater in your HERMS system work?
> >
> > (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)
> >
> > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
> >
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> > Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
> >
> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
> > >
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> > > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
> > > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
> > >
> > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: zymurgybob@
> > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
> > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
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> > > Gavin,
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> > > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
> > >
> > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
> > >
> > > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
> > >
> > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
> > > >
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> > > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
> > > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
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