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Re: How important is the sparge?

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  • John Foster
    Thanks everybody for your help.     Basicly what your combine advise is The cleaner the process, the better the booze .   Make complete sense. Thanks
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 18 5:22 AM
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      Thanks everybody for your help.  
       
      Basicly what your combine advise is "The cleaner the process, the better the booze".   Make complete sense.
    • tgfoitwoods
      Gavin, I don t sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I m heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I d be concerned is
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 18 10:35 AM
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        Gavin,

        I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

        To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
        > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
        >

      • Gavin Flett
        Bob, I do use an electric element, but it s external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 18 10:49 AM
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          Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?

          Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.


          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          From: zymurgybob@...
          Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

           
          Gavin,

          I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

          To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
          > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
          >


        • tgfoitwoods
          Gavin, You ve caught me in an ignorance. Although I m an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it s a propane-heated false-bottomed brew
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 18 2:55 PM
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            Gavin,

            You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.

            Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.

            How does the heater in your HERMS system work?

            (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

            Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
            > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
            >
            > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > From: zymurgybob@...
            > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
            > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
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            > Gavin,
            >
            > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
            >
            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
            >
            > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
            > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
            > >
            >
          • Gavin Flett
            My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12 X 2 copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 18 3:19 PM
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              My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.

              I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).

              An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).

              Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.

              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              From: zymurgybob@...
              Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

               
              Gavin,

              You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.

              Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.

              How does the heater in your HERMS system work?

              (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

              Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
              > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
              >
              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > From: zymurgybob@...
              > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
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              > Gavin,
              >
              > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
              >
              > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
              >
              > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
              > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
              > >
              >

            • tgfoitwoods
              Gavin, After some more testing, it seems that the Yahoo mailer will not pass the mailto: HTML tag. It works while viewing the message, but does not after the
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 18 3:21 PM
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                Gavin,

                After some more testing, it seems that the Yahoo mailer will not pass the "mailto:" HTML tag. It works while viewing the message, but does not after the message is sent. Interestingly, it does pass the "href" tag, which correctly tells you that the blog page has not been created yet. I'll still be using your message (with name redacted), and thanks for your patience. I'll be doing it this way, as a workaround.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > In response to your question about the blog, yes you do have my permission, but please remove my name. You can replace it with anything you like (tasteful of course :). i tried to email you at the link provided, however it did not sam to work.
                >
                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > From: zymurgybob@...
                > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
                > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
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                > Gavin,
                >
                > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                >
                > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
                > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
                > >
                >
              • tgfoitwoods
                Gavin, I can t say for sure, but the fact that you ve seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you re flirting with a problem. I got looking
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 18 3:55 PM
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                  Gavin,

                  I can't say for sure, but the fact that you've seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you're flirting with a problem. I got looking for proportional controllers for that element, and found that PID's, a very sophisticated type of controller, can be had for about 20 USD.
                  http://tinyurl.com/7k3dd8q
                  I couldn't find a data sheet for this controller, but it may require a Solid State Relay in addition to the controller (if the SSR is not contained in the controller). Such a controller should reduce the tendency to scorch greatly.

                  I think I may get one of these for my proposed fermentation cabinet. My garage is a pretty chilly place, except during the summer when it's too warm to lager :(.

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                  To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.
                  > I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).
                  > An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).
                  > Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.
                  > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: zymurgybob@...
                  > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
                  > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                  >
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                  > Gavin,
                  >
                  > You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.
                  >
                  > Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.
                  >
                  > How does the heater in your HERMS system work?
                  >
                  > (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)
                  >
                  > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
                  > > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
                  > >
                  > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: zymurgybob@
                  > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
                  > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                  > >
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                  > > Gavin,
                  > >
                  > > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
                  > >
                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                  > >
                  > > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                  > >
                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
                  > > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Gavin Flett
                  Most of those terms are definitely above my head. But I will begin the research on them (I have heard a lot of brewers use the PID term). I m guessing this is
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 18 3:59 PM
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                    Most of those terms are definitely above my head. But I will begin the research on them (I have heard a lot of brewers use the PID term). I'm guessing this is something that makes the elements heat increase as the desired temperature increases (as opposed to just blaring hot for a bit, then cool down to temp etc...).


                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    From: zymurgybob@...
                    Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:55:18 +0000
                    Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

                     
                    Gavin,

                    I can't say for sure, but the fact that you've seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you're flirting with a problem. I got looking for proportional controllers for that element, and found that PID's, a very sophisticated type of controller, can be had for about 20 USD.
                    http://tinyurl.com/7k3dd8q
                    I couldn't find a data sheet for this controller, but it may require a Solid State Relay in addition to the controller (if the SSR is not contained in the controller). Such a controller should reduce the tendency to scorch greatly.

                    I think I may get one of these for my proposed fermentation cabinet. My garage is a pretty chilly place, except during the summer when it's too warm to lager :(.

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                    To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.
                    > I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).
                    > An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).
                    > Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.
                    > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: zymurgybob@...
                    > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
                    > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    > Gavin,
                    >
                    > You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.
                    >
                    > Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.
                    >
                    > How does the heater in your HERMS system work?
                    >
                    > (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)
                    >
                    > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
                    > > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
                    > >
                    > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > From: zymurgybob@
                    > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
                    > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                    > >
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                    > > Gavin,
                    > >
                    > > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
                    > >
                    > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                    > >
                    > > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                    > >
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
                    > > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • Gavin Flett
                    Ok, I ve done enough research on a PID controller to know that I don t understand what the hell anyone is talking about. Can someone explain to me in terms and
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 18 6:15 PM
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                      Ok, I've done enough research on a PID controller to know that I don't understand what the hell anyone is talking about. Can someone explain to me in terms and language that normal people use what a PID controller is?


                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      From: zymurgybob@...
                      Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:55:18 +0000
                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

                       
                      Gavin,

                      I can't say for sure, but the fact that you've seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you're flirting with a problem. I got looking for proportional controllers for that element, and found that PID's, a very sophisticated type of controller, can be had for about 20 USD.
                      http://tinyurl.com/7k3dd8q
                      I couldn't find a data sheet for this controller, but it may require a Solid State Relay in addition to the controller (if the SSR is not contained in the controller). Such a controller should reduce the tendency to scorch greatly.

                      I think I may get one of these for my proposed fermentation cabinet. My garage is a pretty chilly place, except during the summer when it's too warm to lager :(.

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                      To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.
                      > I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).
                      > An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).
                      > Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.
                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: zymurgybob@...
                      > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
                      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      > Gavin,
                      >
                      > You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.
                      >
                      > Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.
                      >
                      > How does the heater in your HERMS system work?
                      >
                      > (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)
                      >
                      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
                      > > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
                      > >
                      > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > From: zymurgybob@
                      > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
                      > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
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                      > > Gavin,
                      > >
                      > > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
                      > >
                      > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                      > >
                      > > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                      > >
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
                      > > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • tgfoitwoods
                      Gavin, Gavin, The PID controller looks at three things to try to hold the temperature of your system at the temperature you ve set the controller to. For the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 18 7:51 PM
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                        Gavin,

                        Gavin,

                        The PID controller looks at three things to try to hold the temperature of your system at the temperature you've set the controller to. For the "P" part, the controller looks at the error, the difference between the temp you have and the temp you set, and then adjusts the power in proportion to the size and direction of that error, to reduce that error.

                        The "I" is for integral, a measure of the amount of error accumulated over time. The larger that integral, the more the controller will adjust the power to reduce that integral.

                        "D" stands for derivative, the slope of the error curve. Since the slope of a curve tells you where the curve is going, the controller wants to see it going to zero error in the future. If the slope isn't pointing to a future zero error, teh controller will adjust the power to get that result.

                        All three of these things, P, I, and D, are happening simultaneously, and according to rules I don't know squat about. I do know that some controllers allow you to adjust how the three interact, and some do it automatically, but I don't know how.

                        I do know that for most purposes these things work very well, and if you start your conversion at a temperature a bit below your desired HERMS temperature, that electric element will never get terribly hot, just enough to get the temperature you want. If you start your HERMS dead-cold, that element will come on pretty hard, and just maybe scorch something.

                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                        To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Most of those terms are definitely above my head. But I will begin the research on them (I have heard a lot of brewers use the PID term). I'm guessing this is something that makes the elements heat increase as the desired temperature increases (as opposed to just blaring hot for a bit, then cool down to temp etc...).
                        >

                      • Gavin Flett
                        Thanks for the detailed info Bob, but I am still not sure why the PID will be better than just a regular Johnson A519 digital thermostat. To:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 18 10:13 PM
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                          Thanks for the detailed info Bob, but I am still not sure why the PID will be better than just a regular Johnson A519 digital thermostat.


                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          From: zymurgybob@...
                          Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 02:51:01 +0000
                          Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

                           
                          Gavin,

                          Gavin,

                          The PID controller looks at three things to try to hold the temperature of your system at the temperature you've set the controller to. For the "P" part, the controller looks at the error, the difference between the temp you have and the temp you set, and then adjusts the power in proportion to the size and direction of that error, to reduce that error.

                          The "I" is for integral, a measure of the amount of error accumulated over time. The larger that integral, the more the controller will adjust the power to reduce that integral.

                          "D" stands for derivative, the slope of the error curve. Since the slope of a curve tells you where the curve is going, the controller wants to see it going to zero error in the future. If the slope isn't pointing to a future zero error, teh controller will adjust the power to get that result.

                          All three of these things, P, I, and D, are happening simultaneously, and according to rules I don't know squat about. I do know that some controllers allow you to adjust how the three interact, and some do it automatically, but I don't know how.

                          I do know that for most purposes these things work very well, and if you start your conversion at a temperature a bit below your desired HERMS temperature, that electric element will never get terribly hot, just enough to get the temperature you want. If you start your HERMS dead-cold, that element will come on pretty hard, and just maybe scorch something.

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                          To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Most of those terms are definitely above my head. But I will begin the research on them (I have heard a lot of brewers use the PID term). I'm guessing this is something that makes the elements heat increase as the desired temperature increases (as opposed to just blaring hot for a bit, then cool down to temp etc...).
                          >


                        • tgfoitwoods
                          Gavin, If that Johnson control really is a thermostat, it means your element is either completely off, or turned on to the full 2kW output, depending on the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 19 11:42 AM
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                            Gavin,

                            If that Johnson control really is a thermostat, it means your element is either completely off, or turned on to the full 2kW output, depending on the temperature of your wort and the thermostat's adjustment. Because you found scorched material on your element, that means the full 2kW output can, under at least some circumstances you have seen, scorch particles in your wort. Therefore, under some circumstances, the Johnson control and the 2kW element can scorch your wort. If that's a problem you can live with, you don't need to change anything.

                            A question before I go further? When you start mashing, do you try for a strike temperature just a bit below your desired conversion temperature? If so, and it's a common thing to do, a PID controller would sense a small temperature error, and apply some (relatively) small amount of power to the wort, and you will see no scorching. Under the same conditions, the Johnson thermostat will turn on the full 2kW power of the element, even is the wort temperature is just a couple of degrees under your desired temperature, possible scorching the wort as you have seen.

                            If, on the other hand, you add your grain to dead cold water, and use the HERMS heater to do all the heating of the entire mash, even the PID will turn on the element fully, also running a chance of scorching. 

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                            To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks for the detailed info Bob, but I am still not sure why the PID will be better than just a regular Johnson A519 digital thermostat.
                            >
                            ----snip----0
                          • Gavin Flett
                            I m guessing that strike temperature means the temperature of the water that I am adding to the grain. If so, then I just take it from the tap at about 44C (or
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 19 12:00 PM
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                              I'm guessing that strike temperature means the temperature of the water that I am adding to the grain. If so, then I just take it from the tap at about 44C (or whatever it is as it comes out hot). I shoot for a mash temperature of about 65C.

                              So I'm also guessing that the PID only turns on the element with a bit of power (enough for the desired temperature)? It must work with a series of resistors inside to help regulate that then.


                              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              From: zymurgybob@...
                              Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 18:42:06 +0000
                              Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

                               
                              Gavin,

                              If that Johnson control really is a thermostat, it means your element is either completely off, or turned on to the full 2kW output, depending on the temperature of your wort and the thermostat's adjustment. Because you found scorched material on your element, that means the full 2kW output can, under at least some circumstances you have seen, scorch particles in your wort. Therefore, under some circumstances, the Johnson control and the 2kW element can scorch your wort. If that's a problem you can live with, you don't need to change anything.

                              A question before I go further? When you start mashing, do you try for a strike temperature just a bit below your desired conversion temperature? If so, and it's a common thing to do, a PID controller would sense a small temperature error, and apply some (relatively) small amount of power to the wort, and you will see no scorching. Under the same conditions, the Johnson thermostat will turn on the full 2kW power of the element, even is the wort temperature is just a couple of degrees under your desired temperature, possible scorching the wort as you have seen.

                              If, on the other hand, you add your grain to dead cold water, and use the HERMS heater to do all the heating of the entire mash, even the PID will turn on the element fully, also running a chance of scorching. 

                              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                              To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for the detailed info Bob, but I am still not sure why the PID will be better than just a regular Johnson A519 digital thermostat.
                              >
                              ----snip----0

                            • Eddie Hoskin
                              Ok, in layman s terms, a PID controller attempts to drive something (ie, speed, temperature, flow rate) to a specified level.  It does this by feeding back
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 20 2:45 PM
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                                Ok, in layman's terms, a PID controller attempts to drive something (ie, speed, temperature, flow rate) to a specified level.  It does this by 'feeding back' the current output back into the system's input.  This is especially important in systems where there are lots of perturbations...like driving a car with cruise control.

                                For instance, say that you're driving along, and decide to set the cruise control at 55mph.  On a flat road, the input signal to the engine is constant, and the output (the speed) is also constant.  You come to a hill, and the car begins to slow down--the input has remained the same, but the system has changed.  As a result, the PID controller 'pushes the gas pedal more' to push the car back to 55MPH.  The opposite happens when you come down a hill--you start to accelerate, and the PID controller 'pushes the gas pedal less' so that you don't speed up.

                                The different components of the PID--Proportional, Integral, and Derivative--each seek to address different types of error.  For instance, a Proportional controller can only get you closer to the target level.  In the instance of a car, if the target is 55mph and you are at 50 mph, a proportional controller could only ever get you to 54.99999mph.

                                Integral controllers are good at centering in on the target--but they tend to shoot past it, kind of like a spring.  They oscillate around the target. in the car example, you might see the spped do this: 50, 54, 58, 56, 54, 55.

                                Derivative controllers effectively reduce high frequency noise.  In the car example, if you run over a pothole, it might send a input signal 'spike' back into the engine, and rev it up, or cut it.  The derivative controller cuts down that spike.

                                So, PID controllers try to combine all these aspects.  They usually require some tuning for optimal performance.  They are mostly useful where you need a pretty high level of precision and the system is subject to perturbations.

                                For a process like brewing, PID's tend to be a wee bit overkill on comparison to a thermostat.  But they offer two advantages--the accuracy is better than a thermostat's +/- degree range, and they are often programmable, so you could use them in an automated brewing process.

                                Hope that helps,
                                Eddie

                                //Electrical Engineer (Controls and Power Systems)


                                From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                To: distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:15 PM
                                Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

                                 
                                Ok, I've done enough research on a PID controller to know that I don't understand what the hell anyone is talking about. Can someone explain to me in terms and language that normal people use what a PID controller is?


                                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                From: zymurgybob@...
                                Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:55:18 +0000
                                Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

                                 
                                Gavin,

                                I can't say for sure, but the fact that you've seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you're flirting with a problem. I got looking for proportional controllers for that element, and found that PID's, a very sophisticated type of controller, can be had for about 20 USD.
                                http://tinyurl.com/7k3dd8q
                                I couldn't find a data sheet for this controller, but it may require a Solid State Relay in addition to the controller (if the SSR is not contained in the controller). Such a controller should reduce the tendency to scorch greatly.

                                I think I may get one of these for my proposed fermentation cabinet. My garage is a pretty chilly place, except during the summer when it's too warm to lager :(.

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.
                                > I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).
                                > An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).
                                > Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.
                                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: zymurgybob@...
                                > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
                                > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                >
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                                > Gavin,
                                >
                                > You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.
                                >
                                > Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.
                                >
                                > How does the heater in your HERMS system work?
                                >
                                > (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)
                                >
                                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                >
                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
                                > > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
                                > >
                                > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > > From: zymurgybob@
                                > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
                                > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                > >
                                > >
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                                > > Gavin,
                                > >
                                > > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
                                > >
                                > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                > >
                                > > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                > >
                                > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
                                > > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >



                              • tgfoitwoods
                                Gavin, Eddie s example of the cruise control controlling your car s speed is perfect to explain the PID. Now let me explain the thermostat principle (only we d
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 20 4:44 PM
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                                  Gavin,

                                  Eddie's example of the cruise control controlling your car's speed is perfect to explain the PID. Now let me explain the thermostat principle (only we'd call it a "speedostat") to control the same car's speed.

                                  To make your car work as a "speedostat", you'd decide on a speed to hold, say 50 miles per hour. Then start the engine, put the car in gear and jam the accelerator to the floor. When the car gets to 50 mph, keep your accelerator jammed to the floor, but turn off the ignition key. When the car slows some small amount below 50, with the accelerator still floored, turn the ignition back on again. Repeat as necessary, but always with the accelerator floored.

                                  Your speed will stay arbitrarily close to 50 mph, but I'm guessing you'll be able to tell the difference between the "speedostat" and your car's regular (PID) cruise control.

                                  If this sounds like an unrealistically goofy speed control, some WWI aircraft controlled engine speed with a "blip" switch, kinda like a doorbell button. When you pushed it, it grounded the magneto, the engine turned off, and the plane slowed down. When you didn't push the button, the engine stayed on and the plane tried to go its maximum speed. This is exactly how that Johnson control is controlling your HERMS temperature, by turning it off and on at full throttle.


                                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                  To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.

                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ok, I've done enough research on a PID controller to know that I don't understand what the hell anyone is talking about. Can someone explain to me in terms and language that normal people use what a PID controller is?
                                  >
                                  > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: zymurgybob@...
                                  > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:55:18 +0000
                                  > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  > Gavin,
                                  >
                                  > I can't say for sure, but the fact that you've seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you're flirting with a problem. I got looking for proportional controllers for that element, and found that PID's, a very sophisticated type of controller, can be had for about 20 USD.
                                  > http://tinyurl.com/7k3dd8q
                                  > I couldn't find a data sheet for this controller, but it may require a Solid State Relay in addition to the controller (if the SSR is not contained in the controller). Such a controller should reduce the tendency to scorch greatly.
                                  >
                                  > I think I may get one of these for my proposed fermentation cabinet. My garage is a pretty chilly place, except during the summer when it's too warm to lager .
                                  >
                                  > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.
                                  > > I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).
                                  > > An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).
                                  > > Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.
                                  > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > From: zymurgybob@
                                  > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
                                  > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                  > >
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                                  > > Gavin,
                                  > >
                                  > > You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.
                                  > >
                                  > > Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.
                                  > >
                                  > > How does the heater in your HERMS system work?
                                  > >
                                  > > (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)
                                  > >
                                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
                                  > > > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > From: zymurgybob@
                                  > > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
                                  > > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                  > > >
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                                  > > > Gavin,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
                                  > > > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Thursty2
                                  Apologies for chipping in so late: On one or more occasions - when I first started fiddling with distilling, the wash was less than clear before boiling off. A
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 22 5:17 AM
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                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Apologies for chipping in so late:

                                    On one or more occasions - when I first started fiddling with distilling, the wash was less than clear before boiling off.
                                    A number of batches produced both a foul smell and an even more foul product during and after the boiloff.

                                    I then cultivated a regime of allowing the ferment to settle out, which took time, but have recently started using bentonite to accelerate the process. I use a dessert spoon of it mixed into half a litre of the 25 ltr wash which is then mixed back into the fermenter. Remove the airlock, or unscrew the lid before taking the half litre from the fermenter, or you may draw airlock water back in to the wash.

                                    Cheers

                                    --------------------------------

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, John Foster <john_foster_in_erie@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks everybody for your help.  
                                    >  
                                    > Basicly what your combine advise is "The cleaner the process, the better the booze".   Make complete sense.
                                    >
                                  • Gavin Flett
                                    Eddie, Bob..... brilliantly explained Thank you both for a decisively in depth and easy to understand explanation. Gavin To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com From:
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 22 10:33 AM
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                                      Eddie, Bob..... brilliantly explained

                                      Thank you both for a decisively in depth and easy to understand explanation.

                                      Gavin


                                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: zymurgybob@...
                                      Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:44:39 +0000
                                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?

                                       
                                      Gavin,

                                      Eddie's example of the cruise control controlling your car's speed is perfect to explain the PID. Now let me explain the thermostat principle (only we'd call it a "speedostat") to control the same car's speed.

                                      To make your car work as a "speedostat", you'd decide on a speed to hold, say 50 miles per hour. Then start the engine, put the car in gear and jam the accelerator to the floor. When the car gets to 50 mph, keep your accelerator jammed to the floor, but turn off the ignition key. When the car slows some small amount below 50, with the accelerator still floored, turn the ignition back on again. Repeat as necessary, but always with the accelerator floored.

                                      Your speed will stay arbitrarily close to 50 mph, but I'm guessing you'll be able to tell the difference between the "speedostat" and your car's regular (PID) cruise control.

                                      If this sounds like an unrealistically goofy speed control, some WWI aircraft controlled engine speed with a "blip" switch, kinda like a doorbell button. When you pushed it, it grounded the magneto, the engine turned off, and the plane slowed down. When you didn't push the button, the engine stayed on and the plane tried to go its maximum speed. This is exactly how that Johnson control is controlling your HERMS temperature, by turning it off and on at full throttle.


                                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                      To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@.... Let me know if you want your name removed.

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Ok, I've done enough research on a PID controller to know that I don't understand what the hell anyone is talking about. Can someone explain to me in terms and language that normal people use what a PID controller is?
                                      >
                                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: zymurgybob@...
                                      > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:55:18 +0000
                                      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Gavin,
                                      >
                                      > I can't say for sure, but the fact that you've seen some scorching of flour on the element, sounds like you're flirting with a problem. I got looking for proportional controllers for that element, and found that PID's, a very sophisticated type of controller, can be had for about 20 USD.
                                      > http://tinyurl.com/7k3dd8q
                                      > I couldn't find a data sheet for this controller, but it may require a Solid State Relay in addition to the controller (if the SSR is not contained in the controller). Such a controller should reduce the tendency to scorch greatly.
                                      >
                                      > I think I may get one of these for my proposed fermentation cabinet. My garage is a pretty chilly place, except during the summer when it's too warm to lager .
                                      >
                                      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To the author of this question: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me at zymurgybob@... Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                      >
                                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > My element is just an on/off, hot water tank element screwed into a 12" X 2" copper tube for the heat exchange chamber (this is of course connected to the pump by intake line and the mash tun by outake line). I use a digital Johnson A419 thermostat control for the element. I just leave the pump on all the time during mashing, it has a flow rate of about 6L a minute and I only turn it off to lauter and sparge.
                                      > > I have only just built this system and have used it once, so I am assuming that the flow rate is adequate to prevent scorching flavour transferring through. I did however have a healthy coat of flour stuck to the element after use (scorched underneath layer touching the element, then the top layer of flour was just stuck on, no scorching).
                                      > > An aquaintance who brews beer professionally told me that it's ok for wort to come into direct contact an element, as he is a pro brewer I imagine he assumes there is no flour particles (as this is how he does it).
                                      > > Maybe I'll post some pics of the system, it's very simple and doesn't involve a 3 tub system as others I have seen. Other than the mash tun, the whole thing goes nicely into a portable plastic case.
                                      > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > From: zymurgybob@
                                      > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:55:14 +0000
                                      > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
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                                      > >
                                      > > Gavin,
                                      > >
                                      > > You've caught me in an ignorance. Although I'm an allgrain brewer, and use what is technically a HERMS system, it's a propane-heated false-bottomed brew kettle, with a pump from the bottom to a sparge arm on top. Because I never get to brew with any allgrain brewing buddies, I don't know all the different ways brewers heat the wort in their particular HERMS system.
                                      > >
                                      > > Do you control the heat output of that 2kW element with some sort of proportional control, or do you use a binary thermostat-type of control? If you use a proportional control, I think your element would look like a very low density element, and scorching should not be an issue. If, however, the element is turned on full with little or no wort flow over it, I'd think scorching would be a real problem.
                                      > >
                                      > > How does the heater in your HERMS system work?
                                      > >
                                      > > (As for the email link, I just learned that under some conditions, this mailer editor can strip HTML tags out of the reply. I'm going to try again this time. Bear with me?)
                                      > >
                                      > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Bob, I do use an electric element, but it's external (a hotplate), so I am assuming that it will be the same effect that a flame heat source will deliver. Is my assumption correct?
                                      > > > Also, I use a 2000 W immersion heater in my HERMS set up. This definitely gets some flour particles in direct contact with it. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the drawing board with this.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > From: zymurgybob@
                                      > > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:26 +0000
                                      > > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: How important is the sparge?
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
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                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Gavin,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I don't sweat a modest amount of particulate matter in my wash, but I'm heating the boiler externally, with propane. The only time I'd be concerned is if you have an internal electric element, especially a high-density element. That kind of heating setup is particularly sensitive to small particles in the wash, and can stick, scorch, and burn under the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions, and the bad taste can be almost impossible to get rid of.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                                      > > >
                                      > > > To Gavin: I would like to be able to use your question, and my answer to it,in my Zymurgy Bob blog, and I'm asking for your permission to do that. If you choose to give me that permission, email me here. Let me know if you want your name removed.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett gavin_flett@ wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Yes I knew that about the yeast being a no go in the boiler.
                                      > > > > I have a new question with regards to malt distillations. Is it ok to have the flour particles go into the boiler during the distillation. Has anyone had any bad experiences with this happening. I have had it happen, but do not know the extent to (if any) which it has affected my run.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >

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