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RE: [Distillers] Re: Aged dunder fermentation

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  • Gavin Flett
    So how long does the dunder take to age? To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com From: waljaco@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:46:55 +0000 Subject: [Distillers]
    Message 1 of 31 , Oct 14 8:24 AM
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      So how long does the dunder take to age?

      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      From: waljaco@...
      Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:46:55 +0000
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Aged dunder fermentation

      My understanding is that lactic bacteria pathway does not lead to fermentable sugars but to lactic acid which in the case of wine is a softer acid.

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:
      > The molasses I've used came from a hot processes that killed all the yeast, that said, wild yeast is present in most molasses; I'd ask them what processing happens to the molasses.
      > I am a big fan of ec-1118; most wild yeast can't get the attenuation, or tolerate the ABV that commercial yeasts get, this means that Lactobacillus will be responsible for the rest of the conversion. It will dry out, but that's a longer processes. Lacto will also create a much lower Ph and can add more "flavors". These flavors depend almost exclusively on the fermentation temperature. Generally speaking I ferment my molasses dunder at 68°F using ec-1188 and a tube of lacto/brettanomyces blend from white labs. I pitch a 2L starter made a few days in Advance of just EC-1118. Then after the third day I add the lacto/Brett.
      > That white film is a pellicle that protects the "wild" yeast from oxygen. Lacto and Brett are both anaerobic and need the pellicle to finish out. Traditional dunder fermentors wait a few months to allow the pellicle to fall to the bottom. It's nasty and tastes like chewed ass, when it falls out it somehow loses it's off flavor.
      > One point of caution. Lacto and Brett are both very voracious eaters and are really hard to eliminate from a fermenter. They are about 25x smaller than saccromyces c. and fit in many more microscopic cracks and fissures. I would only ferment lacto/brett in stainless or in a dedicated plastic fermenter.
      > I also don't trust wild air yeast because of the possibility of infection from acetic or other nasty family yeasts. Trees are full of Pediococcus bacteria, which tastes like a horse blanket at 69°F.
      > On Oct 11, 2011, at 18:35, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@...> wrote
      > > These are questions for Alex (or any Rum experts for that matter)
      > >
      > > Alex, I am making Rum and have the backset from the last wash ageing to make dunder. I live in a temperate climate, so no quickened ageing process due to higher temps here. I read in one of your posts that yoghurt is to be added to the dunder in order to age it.
      > >
      > > Did I read that correctly? If so, can I put in any yoghurt, such as Activia Vanilla flavoured yoghurt?
      > >
      > > Do I need to do anything to the yoghurt prior to adding it to my dunder?
      > >
      > > How long should I age the dunder before using it in another batch?
      > >
      > > Lastly, is the molasses I obtain from the local sugar refinery (located in the city I live in actually) going to contain any wild yeast? Is this the yeast I should be using to ferment the Rum (currently I am using Lavallin EC-1118)?
      > >
      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Wild yeasts, bacteria and fungi can help ferment sugars regular yeast cannot, and also help in flavor development - the dangerous one is vinegar bacteria which will decrease your alcohol yield and the acetic acid produced can carry over. Batavia rum relied on these wild things in Chinese yeast or Indonesian ragi yeast.
      > > >
      > > > wal
      > > >
      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi
      > > > >
      > > > > Much have been written down about aged dunder and its use mainly as a
      > > > > diluent of low wines. In that event Harry have said, and Wal has posted
      > > > > extracts of old books which show that in Jamaica is used as much as
      > > > > 50/50 with water, using only the middle part. My experience has been so
      > > > > far mainly with fresh, next day after distillation, dunder. My
      > > > > understanding WAS that this aging naturally occurred after several
      > > > > months or at least weeks after fresh dunder was in contact with air rich
      > > > > in wild yeast and bacteria; I also know that this process can be quicken
      > > > > by adding lactic bacteria contained in yogurt and cheese. However the
      > > > > other day I left some fresh dunder in one of my fermenters (usually I
      > > > > kept it in a closed gallon jug) not for aging it, but waiting for some
      > > > > molasses and great was my surprise to discover that in the matter of
      > > > > DAYS the white film, common in aged dunder had formed! Going a step
      > > > > further I added a generous amount of molasses, some water and plenty air
      > > > > (but no nutrients) and...it fermented! It did it so nicely that not only
      > > > > the smell through fermentation was pleasant, but the yield increased!
      > > > > Those low wines are waiting to be distilled right way, but my concern
      > > > > was that the white cap could somehow interfere with a proper
      > > > > fermentation giving low yields, bad smell or stopping it at all. None
      > > > > of those was observed. In fact, yesterday I dumped some fresh dunder in
      > > > > the fermenter and just today can be observed the development of the
      > > > > white film/cap. So my question is, why people in Jamaica use to discard
      > > > > that film? Why can we just use it? Probably an input from Harry, Wal,
      > > > > Jim or some other MKO can enlight us about it. In the mean time I´ll
      > > > > keep you informed, in a few months, how it went after spirit-distilling
      > > > > and oak aging.
      > > > >
      > > > > Ideas welcome!
      > > > >
      > > > > Alex
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >

    • Carlos alberto Sanchez
      yo soy un verdadero milagro de la vida ________________________________ De: Chris Jude Para: Distillers@yahoogroups.com Enviado:
      Message 31 of 31 , Feb 22, 2013
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        yo soy un verdadero milagro de la vida

        De: Chris Jude <vegbenz300@...>
        Para: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Enviado: domingo, 10 de febrero de 2013 20:19
        Asunto: Re: [Distillers] Re: Aged dunder fermentation

        reviving an old dead thread.

        I've got several quarts of first run sorghum distillate run by a friend who made no cuts, just gave me the whole run.  I want to run it through again to clean it up and remove the feints and the 35-50% cuts per Arroyo's method.  I've got some fresh sorghum runs that I save the backset and the rum oil cuts.  When doing this distillate run, could I dillute the liquor with the dunder for extra flavor, or should I cut it 50% with pure water?



        On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Alex Castillo <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
        Begin with dunder/water 50/50 (i.e. 10 liters water + 10 liters dunder) adding your molasses (i.e. 1 gallon), DAP (i.e. 1 Tbsp), citric acid (i.e. 1 Tbsp) and yeast (1/4 cup - 1 cup, hydrated or sprinkled on top, then mix).
        I suggest you to begin with bread yeast, since is inexpensive.  With time you may even go all dunder.
        Oxygenate/aireate well (i.e. aquarium pump 1-2 hours).
        Alternatively (instead of using dunder) would be interesting to try bacterial cultures (bretts, lactic, etc.) as secondary fermentations, or even dumping the yogurt after the primary fermentation to create the dunder efect "in situ", lol.  There´s plenty room for experimentation.  I like that!
        Please let us know how it went in your Jamaican craft, Gavin-rum!, lol
        Have fun...and keep it safe!

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