## Re: Pressurized aging

Expand Messages
• Jeweler, Like you, my time and materials are cheap, and I think they can give the same quality as lotsa time in barrels or a short time in a cycled-pressure
Message 1 of 13 , Jan 2, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Jeweler,

Like you, my time and materials are cheap, and I think they can give the same quality as lotsa time in barrels or a short time in a cycled-pressure atmosphere.

All my brewer friends use corny kegs, but I'm still bottle-conditioning. For the way I live and drink, it's perfect.

It appears that you're the only one that didn't miss that negative 50 psi part. For those that didn't follow it, the negative pressure inside a vessel is relative to the ambient outside pressure, which at sea level on Earth is 14.7 psi, 101.25 KPa, or 760mm Hg, so if you remove all the air from that vessel (as low a pressure as is possible), the inside pressure is -14.7 psi, and your spirit will have boiled long before you got down to -14.7. -50 psi is just silly talk.

Lowered internal pressure allows the air/gases inside the wood structure to "exhale", and when the pressure returns to ambient, the spirit displaces the lost gases in the wood structure, allowing better dissolving of the wood compounds.

The positive pressure cycle did not appear to be for oxidation, but simply to compress the internal wood gases so spirit could displace them. Anyway, I always oxidize after the oak compounds have been dissolved.

I think the cycling of pressure is more important to the process than what the pressure extremes of the cycle are, so a simple lab aspirator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirator
could be used with a corny keg, to drop the pressure to an absolute theoretical minimum of (.46 -14.7 =) -14.24 psi theoretical. I'm guessing a cheap aspirator could get you to -5 psi, which should be plenty. It works for resin-impregnating wood and getting the bubbles out of investment casting slurry.

You corny keg users...do you think they'll take -5 psi?

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jeweler53" <Dick_Box@...> wrote:
>
> I personally would only consider this method if it produces a better quality liquor. I have plenty of raw materials and lots of time.
>
> Having said that, I would agree that a corny keg would probably be the best solution. The usually have an overpressure valve that makes them pretty safe. Mine are marked "max working pressure 150 p.s.i."
>
> I would make sure that you are using brand new gaskets if you want to approach that kind of pressure.
>
> I also would be very cautious about trying to create a "negative pressure". Neither the gasket system or the tank are designed for that. I have never tried to do it but suspect that the tank would collapse from the external air pressure if sufficient gas is remove from the inside of the tank.
>
> Keep in mind also that temperature is another variable to keep in mind. Ice cold soda (or beer for that matter) will release the dissolved co2 relatively slowly as it warms. a worm one releases the gas explosively.
>
> Have fun, but be safe. (oh, and BTW if you are gonna tell me you achieved -50 psi, you credibility will drop with me. A lot.)
>
• Hi Z Bob How are you presently oxidizing? I think once you mentioned some kind of compressor used in beer making, mind give us a link and where to get it? Alex
Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Hi Z Bob

How are you presently oxidizing? I think once you mentioned some kind of compressor used in beer making, mind give us a link and where to get it?

Alex
• I am guessing that -5 psi would be close to, or exceed the ability of a corny keg to withstand pressure. It would be fun to try though! That is equivalent to
Message 3 of 13 , Jan 2, 2011
• 0 Attachment
I am guessing that -5 psi would be close to, or exceed the ability of a corny keg to withstand pressure. It would be fun to try though! That is equivalent to hauing an emply seale tak to a depth of 130 feet in a tank of water. My best guess is that the seals would fail before the cylinder did. They are designed to withstand pressure from the inside, not the outside.

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
From: zymurgybob@...
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 18:56:45 +0000
Subject: [Distillers] Re: Pressurized aging

Jeweler,

Like you, my time and materials are cheap, and I think they can give the same quality as lotsa time in barrels or a short time in a cycled-pressure atmosphere.

All my brewer friends use corny kegs, but I'm still bottle-conditioning. For the way I live and drink, it's perfect.

It appears that you're the only one that didn't miss that negative 50 psi part. For those that didn't follow it, the negative pressure inside a vessel is relative to the ambient outside pressure, which at sea level on Earth is 14.7 psi, 101.25 KPa, or 760mm Hg, so if you remove all the air from that vessel (as low a pressure as is possible), the inside pressure is -14.7 psi, and your spirit will have boiled long before you got down to -14.7. -50 psi is just silly talk.

Lowered internal pressure allows the air/gases inside the wood structure to "exhale", and when the pressure returns to ambient, the spirit displaces the lost gases in the wood structure, allowing better dissolving of the wood compounds.

The positive pressure cycle did not appear to be for oxidation, but simply to compress the internal wood gases so spirit could displace them. Anyway, I always oxidize after the oak compounds have been dissolved.

I think the cycling of pressure is more important to the process than what the pressure extremes of the cycle are, so a simple lab aspirator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirator
could be used with a corny keg, to drop the pressure to an absolute theoretical minimum of (.46 -14.7 =) -14.24 psi theoretical. I'm guessing a cheap aspirator could get you to -5 psi, which should be plenty. It works for resin-impregnating wood and getting the bubbles out of investment casting slurry.

You corny keg users...do you think they'll take -5 psi?

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jeweler53" <Dick_Box@...> wrote:
>
> I personally would only consider this method if it produces a better quality liquor. I have plenty of raw materials and lots of time.
>
> Having said that, I would agree that a corny keg would probably be the best solution. The usually have an overpressure valve that makes them pretty safe. Mine are marked "max working pressure 150 p.s.i."
>
> I would make sure that you are using brand new gaskets if you want to approach that kind of pressure.
>
> I also would be very cautious about trying to create a "negative pressure". Neither the gasket system or the tank are designed for that. I have never tried to do it but suspect that the tank would collapse from the external air pressure if sufficient gas is remove from the inside of the tank.
>
> Keep in mind also that temperature is another variable to keep in mind. Ice cold soda (or beer for that matter) will release the dissolved co2 relatively slowly as it warms. a worm one releases the gas explosively.
>
> Have fun, but be safe. (oh, and BTW if you are gonna tell me you achieved -50 psi, you credibility will drop with me. A lot.)
>

• Hey Alex, I do a couple of things that have a bit in common, but neither actually pressurizes. To oxidize the wood compounds in the spirits, I use a stainless
Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Hey Alex,

I do a couple of things that have a bit in common, but neither actually
pressurizes. To oxidize the wood compounds in the spirits, I use a
stainless airstone from one of the online brewers suppliers, hooked to
my oxyacetylene torch with only the oxygen on. I run a slow trickle of
tiny bubbles to oxidize, changing wood compounds to vanillins.

To simulate the lower-temp evaporation of the lighter fractions that
happens in barrel evaporation, I use my "angel blaster", a 110-volt
Coleman air-mattress inflator, hooked to a 3/8" perforated copper tubing
wand. When I stick that thing
in a half-full carboy and turn it on, I get huge amounts of
low-pressure air, the spirit boils and churns like crazy, and the vapor
out of the carboy smells kinda heady-nasty. The angels really get a poor
share of the booze. I lose a couple of percent ABV, but I allow for
that.

If you need that brewer's supply link, I'll have to remember who it is
first.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo"
<castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Z Bob
>
> How are you presently oxidizing? I think once you mentioned some kind
of compressor used in beer making, mind give us a link and where to get
it?
>
> Alex
>
• I use a method that I read on this forum to oxidize I put a 4 ltr glass bottle filled with spirit in a bucket of 140F water and use a fish tank air pump to
Message 5 of 13 , Jan 3, 2011
• 0 Attachment
I use a method that I read on this forum to oxidize I put a 4 ltr glass bottle filled with spirit in a bucket of 140F water and use a fish tank air pump to pump air into it for about 1 hr that usually cleans out the headsy smell. I do it when it first comes off the still at full strength so it is 70% to 93%. once I wanted to see what would happen so I let it run over night and 90% spirit changed to 40%. So I only run it for about an hour now
MB

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Alex,
>
> I do a couple of things that have a bit in common, but neither actually
> pressurizes. To oxidize the wood compounds in the spirits, I use a
> stainless airstone from one of the online brewers suppliers, hooked to
> my oxyacetylene torch with only the oxygen on. I run a slow trickle of
> tiny bubbles to oxidize, changing wood compounds to vanillins.
>
> To simulate the lower-temp evaporation of the lighter fractions that
> happens in barrel evaporation, I use my "angel blaster", a 110-volt
> Coleman air-mattress inflator, hooked to a 3/8" perforated copper tubing
> wand. When I stick that thing
> in a half-full carboy and turn it on, I get huge amounts of
> low-pressure air, the spirit boils and churns like crazy, and the vapor
> out of the carboy smells kinda heady-nasty. The angels really get a poor
> share of the booze. I lose a couple of percent ABV, but I allow for
> that.
>
> If you need that brewer's supply link, I'll have to remember who it is
> first.
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo"
> <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Z Bob
> >
> > How are you presently oxidizing? I think once you mentioned some kind
> of compressor used in beer making, mind give us a link and where to get
> it?
> >
> > Alex
> >
>
• Thanks ZB Hmmm... I like both, probably better that one of the pure oxygen, since there´s no problem about rubber smelling diaphragm, etc. It´ll be nice if
Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Thanks ZB

Hmmm... I like both, probably better that one of the pure oxygen, since there´s no problem about rubber smelling diaphragm, etc. It´ll be nice if you could remember the brewer´s supply link.

Alex
• Hey MB Let me take a minute of your time to ask you about your results. You´re talking about an aquarium pump, right? It was said in this forum some time ago
Message 7 of 13 , Jan 3, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Hey MB

Let me take a minute of your time to ask you about your results. You´re talking about an aquarium pump, right? It was said in this forum some time ago that booze so treated remained with an umpleasant rubber taste/smell due to the rubber diaphragm those kind of pumps have. Do you get those unwanted taste/smells? I do have one of those pumps, but I´d hate to ruin some of my booze in the experiment.

Alex
• Here ya go, Alex, http://morebeer.com/view_product/18253//Diffusion_Stone_-_2_Micron_26%22_Long It doesn t say stainless, but it used to say that, and mine is.
Message 8 of 13 , Jan 3, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Here ya go, Alex,

http://morebeer.com/view_product/18253//Diffusion_Stone_-_2_Micron_26%22_Long

It doesn't say stainless, but it used to say that, and mine is.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks ZB
>
> Hmmm... I like both, probably better that one of the pure oxygen, since there´s no problem about rubber smelling diaphragm, etc. It´ll be nice if you could remember the brewer´s supply link.
>
> Alex
>
• HI alex. You should use a compressor type aquarium pump (no rubber diaphram).I usually run a new one for a few days or as long as it takes to get rid of any
Message 9 of 13 , Jan 3, 2011
• 0 Attachment
 HI alex.You should use a compressor type aquarium pump (no rubber diaphram).I usually run a new one for a few days or as long as it takes to get rid of any odours before use. I use a sintered stainless steel air stone as per ZB. My method is to use toasted oak chips and spirit at about 70abv.in a 20ltr. glass container. I run it for up to 2 weeks and have noticed little loss of content or strengthRegardsJoe --- On Tue, 4/1/11, Alex Castillo wrote:From: Alex Castillo Subject: [Distillers] Re: Pressurized agingTo: Distillers@yahoogroups.comDate: Tuesday, 4 January, 2011, 1:50 Hey MBLet me take a minute of your time to ask you about your results. You´re talking about an aquarium pump, right? It was said in this forum some time ago that booze so treated remained with an umpleasant rubber taste/smell due to the rubber diaphragm those kind of pumps have. Do you get those unwanted taste/smells? I do have one of those pumps, but I´d hate to ruin some of my booze in the experiment.Alex

• I have never had any smell from the fish pump it only moves air. the rubber doesn t come in contact with any alcohol. I guess some pumps have different
Message 10 of 13 , Jan 4, 2011
• 0 Attachment
I have never had any smell from the fish pump it only moves air. the rubber doesn't come in contact with any alcohol. I guess some pumps have different materials they are made of. the air is clean enough it wont harm fish and if you have ever kept fish you know how sensitive they can be. smell the air coming from the pump can you detect any smell? Take 3-4 oz of 50/50 mix and let it run in it for a few hours see if you can taste or smell any thing. Mine smells better it has less bite.
I thank heating the distillate to 140F is what off gasses the higher alcohols(heads)faster and the air pump just keeps it mixing. the surface area is where O2 exchange happens. Inside the bubbles the surface area is small the top surface area is much larger the bubbles from the pump keep the distillate and air in the bottle moving so the surface areas are constantly refreshed. if you are pumping pure O2
that would speed it up. but I have found the air pump works in about an hour so why waste my O2
MB
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
>
> Hey MB
>
> Let me take a minute of your time to ask you about your results. You´re talking about an aquarium pump, right? It was said in this forum some time ago that booze so treated remained with an umpleasant rubber taste/smell due to the rubber diaphragm those kind of pumps have. Do you get those unwanted taste/smells? I do have one of those pumps, but I´d hate to ruin some of my booze in the experiment.
>
> Alex
>
• Thanks Joe, Could you post a link of where to get (buy) the compressor you´re talking about (and actually take a look at it). Probably if it is combined with
Message 11 of 13 , Jan 4, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Thanks Joe,

Could you post a link of where to get (buy) the compressor you´re talking about (and actually take a look at it). Probably if it is combined with the SS diffusion stone posted by ZB (thanks again ZB) they could be a good fast-aging combo. But I´m a little confuse here, as I thought that you aereate before adding oak, not after, Am I wrong?

Alex
• Hey MB Well, I think I´ll try it with some little amount of booze as you suggest and see what happens. About heating I know for sure a company here heats
Message 12 of 13 , Jan 4, 2011
• 0 Attachment
Hey MB

Well, I think I´ll try it with some little amount of booze as you suggest and see what happens.

About heating I know for sure a company here heats their to-be-aged alcohol at some 60C with oak chips and pumps ozone to it (don´t know if they do it in that order though). Then they put it in barrels where (by law) must be during at least one year. (Around here everybody ages at 65% ABV, that I also know for sure).

Probably a combination of heating and pumping air or ozone, or maybe heating and adding some oxidizing agent (i.e. hydrogen peroxide) quickens aging, transforming minutes/hours of process in months/years of aging.

Alex
Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.