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Re: Pressurized aging?

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  • edbar44
    I read that article and it seems quite straight forward, all you really need is a scuba tank or you could probably get by with an oxygen tank that are readily
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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      I read that article and it seems quite straight forward, all you really need is a scuba tank or you could probably get by with an oxygen tank that are readily available. I'm going to give it a try myself.


      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@...> wrote:
      >
      > I was doing some rum reading and heard about Temptryst rum (out of Texas) had a method of aging where they pressurize the rum with wood of various sorts.
      >
      > http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100092636
      >
      > For those technically-minded, does this seem to be something that can be done with common equipment (ie. pressure cooker)?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > T-
      >
    • tgfoitwoods
      Todd, Like edbar, I think this is pretty straightforward, and I ve looked at it as a mind experiment for years, especially the cycling of negative pressures on
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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        Todd,

        Like edbar, I think this is pretty straightforward, and I've looked at
        it as a mind experiment for years, especially the cycling of negative
        pressures on the spirit container (although the clown that pulled the
        -50 psi out of his..um..imagination showed a profound lack of knowledge
        of boiling liquids).

        To me, the factor holding me back is lack of suitable containers. I
        don't feel comfortable cycling pressures on a 5-gallon glass carboy, my
        usual aging vessel, for long periods of time, especially when it's full
        of my finest.

        If I were to try this, I'd probably buy some stainless Cornelius kegs,
        an old-fashioned lab aspirator for vacuum, and some kind of simple hand
        pump for the low pressures needed. Cycling from positive to negative
        pressure will drive the spirit through the wood pores for wood compound
        extraction.

        While this technique could be helpful to a startup micro-distiller
        anxious to convert white spirit to something salable as aged, and
        quickly, I don't feel horribly constrained with ambient pressure, small
        wood pieces, and a bit more time.

        Interesting, though.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@...> wrote:
        >
        > I was doing some rum reading and heard about Temptryst rum (out of
        Texas) had a method of aging where they pressurize the rum with wood of
        various sorts.
        >
        > http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100092636
        >
        > For those technically-minded, does this seem to be something that can
        be done with common equipment (ie. pressure cooker)?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > T-
        >
      • Todd Stewart
        I agree about the Cornie keg. As a homebrewer, too, I have used them for years. Safe, sturdy, sealed, and easy to use and tuck away. Not horribly expensive.
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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          I agree about the Cornie keg. As a homebrewer, too, I have used them for years.
          Safe, sturdy, sealed, and easy to use and tuck away. Not horribly expensive. The
          CO2 bottle and regulator would be the most initial cost. They can hold 30psi no
          problem. 50, though not recommended, shouldn't be a problem either.

          My only worry would be carbonating the spirit. Not that you can't de-gas it. But
          it does make for a nice transfer vessel, and even good for serving. Nothing like
          having 5gallons of oak aged rum on tap.

          -xlc


          From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, January 2, 2011 7:39:03 AM
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: Pressurized aging?

           

          Todd,

          Like edbar, I think this is pretty straightforward, and I've looked at
          it as a mind experiment for years, especially the cycling of negative
          pressures on the spirit container (although the clown that pulled the
          -50 psi out of his..um..imagination showed a profound lack of knowledge
          of boiling liquids).

          To me, the factor holding me back is lack of suitable containers. I
          don't feel comfortable cycling pressures on a 5-gallon glass carboy, my
          usual aging vessel, for long periods of time, especially when it's full
          of my finest.

          If I were to try this, I'd probably buy some stainless Cornelius kegs,
          an old-fashioned lab aspirator for vacuum, and some kind of simple hand
          pump for the low pressures needed. Cycling from positive to negative
          pressure will drive the spirit through the wood pores for wood compound
          extraction.

          While this technique could be helpful to a startup micro-distiller
          anxious to convert white spirit to something salable as aged, and
          quickly, I don't feel horribly constrained with ambient pressure, small
          wood pieces, and a bit more time.

          Interesting, though.

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was doing some rum reading and heard about Temptryst rum (out of
          Texas) had a method of aging where they pressurize the rum with wood of
          various sorts.
          >
          > http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100092636
          >
          > For those technically-minded, does this seem to be something that can
          be done with common equipment (ie. pressure cooker)?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > T-
          >


        • jamesonbeam1
          Hi Todd, Not saying that pressurizing will not help the aging process, but why not let nature take its course and use the traditional method where heat and
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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            Hi Todd,

            Not saying that pressurizing will not help the aging process, but why
            not let nature take its course and use the traditional method where heat
            and cold help the alcohol flow thru the wood. I have used the procedure
            of adding bubbling O2 thru an aging vessel with good sucess and even
            shaking it on ocassion after opening, but keeping something pressurized
            for long periods of time to introduce O2 seems a bit extravagent.

            Just my opinion.

            JB. aka Waldo.


            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@...> wrote:
            >
            > I was doing some rum reading and heard about Temptryst rum (out of
            Texas) had a method of aging where they pressurize the rum with wood of
            various sorts.
            >
            > http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100092636
            >
            > For those technically-minded, does this seem to be something that can
            be done with common equipment (ie. pressure cooker)?
            >
            > Thanks,
            > T-
            >
          • Bryan Bornais
            Corny kegs are rated to a max of 130psi, though this is not operating pressure. That is the pressure that will cause the pressure relief valve (either spring
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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              Corny kegs are rated to a max of 130psi, though this is not operating pressure. That is the pressure that will cause the pressure relief valve (either spring valve, or pressure disc), to do it's thing.

              Use a braid re-enforced line if going above 50psi.



              From: Todd Stewart <xlcranium@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, January 2, 2011 10:52:31 AM
              Subject: [Distillers] Pressurized aging?

               

              I agree about the Cornie keg. As a homebrewer, too, I have used them for years.
              Safe, sturdy, sealed, and easy to use and tuck away. Not horribly expensive. The
              CO2 bottle and regulator would be the most initial cost. They can hold 30psi no
              problem. 50, though not recommended, shouldn't be a problem either.

              My only worry would be carbonating the spirit. Not that you can't de-gas it. But
              it does make for a nice transfer vessel, and even good for serving. Nothing like
              having 5gallons of oak aged rum on tap.

              -xlc


              From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, January 2, 2011 7:39:03 AM
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: Pressurized aging?

               

              Todd,

              Like edbar, I think this is pretty straightforward, and I've looked at
              it as a mind experiment for years, especially the cycling of negative
              pressures on the spirit container (although the clown that pulled the
              -50 psi out of his..um..imagination showed a profound lack of knowledge
              of boiling liquids).

              To me, the factor holding me back is lack of suitable containers. I
              don't feel comfortable cycling pressures on a 5-gallon glass carboy, my
              usual aging vessel, for long periods of time, especially when it's full
              of my finest.

              If I were to try this, I'd probably buy some stainless Cornelius kegs,
              an old-fashioned lab aspirator for vacuum, and some kind of simple hand
              pump for the low pressures needed. Cycling from positive to negative
              pressure will drive the spirit through the wood pores for wood compound
              extraction.

              While this technique could be helpful to a startup micro-distiller
              anxious to convert white spirit to something salable as aged, and
              quickly, I don't feel horribly constrained with ambient pressure, small
              wood pieces, and a bit more time.

              Interesting, though.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@...> wrote:
              >
              > I was doing some rum reading and heard about Temptryst rum (out of
              Texas) had a method of aging where they pressurize the rum with wood of
              various sorts.
              >
              > http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100092636
              >
              > For those technically-minded, does this seem to be something that can
              be done with common equipment (ie. pressure cooker)?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > T-
              >



            • geoff burrows
              Hi Waldo, bury the bugger in a barrel in the ground for a year or two and dig it up and it s gotta be a good drink after that Geoff
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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                Hi Waldo,
                bury the bugger in a barrel in the ground for a year or two and dig it up
                and it's gotta be a good drink after that
                Geoff  
              • Pete H
                Hi, At first glance the article seemed to be about pressurising the alcohol into the wood, then releasing that pressure at the end of the process. But I think
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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                  Hi,

                  At first glance the article seemed to be about pressurising the alcohol into the wood, then releasing that pressure at the end of the process.

                  But I think it is more about ebb and flow using different pressures over time. Similar to the natural heating and cooling of spirit in wooden barrels.

                  The article did mention vessel pressures of 1 to 6000 psi.

                  Although I have no testing data, I feel a similar aging process can be attained by oaking - in stainless vessels - at high, say 95%abv rather than lower 50 or 60%. My reasoning is that the higher abv fluid is less dense than lower abv and thus will more easily and deeply penetrate the fibres of the added oak.

                  This method - in stainless containers - would I imagine, also reduce the "Angel's Share", as there would be no loss from migration of the spirit through the holding medium.

                  -----------------------------------

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Todd,
                  >
                  > Not saying that pressurizing will not help the aging process, but why
                  > not let nature take its course and use the traditional method where heat
                  > and cold help the alcohol flow thru the wood. I have used the procedure
                  > of adding bubbling O2 thru an aging vessel with good sucess and even
                  > shaking it on ocassion after opening, but keeping something pressurized
                  > for long periods of time to introduce O2 seems a bit extravagent.
                  >
                  > Just my opinion.
                  >
                  > JB. aka Waldo.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I was doing some rum reading and heard about Temptryst rum (out of
                  > Texas) had a method of aging where they pressurize the rum with wood of
                  > various sorts.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100092636
                  > >
                  > > For those technically-minded, does this seem to be something that can
                  > be done with common equipment (ie. pressure cooker)?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > T-
                  > >
                  >
                • Pete H
                  ... Will ambient temperature spirit carbonate? I know that my beers much prefer to be fridge cold before accepting carbonation.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Todd Stewart <xlcranium@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I agree about the Cornie keg. As a homebrewer, too, I have used them for years.
                    ><Snip>
                    > My only worry would be carbonating the spirit. Not that you can't de-gas it. But
                    >

                    Will ambient temperature spirit carbonate?

                    I know that my beers much prefer to be fridge cold before accepting carbonation.
                  • abbababbaccc
                    The thing is, without angels share the spirits is not going to get the taste we want. Just think of it: whisky distilleries endlesly recycle their feints -
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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                      The thing is, without angels share the spirits is not going to get the taste we want. Just think of it: whisky distilleries endlesly recycle their feints -> over time heads components build on the feints and start to bleed over to the hearts. Cuts in the industry are done by ABV so there's no actual control of the hearts taste. As I see it the angels share is their way of getting rid of those unwanted heads components in their product. After all, even in low temperature evaporation it is heads components that evaporate first.

                      Then again, if we pressurize a vessel with spirits + oak to few bars and then release the pressure - the outcoming air should carry quite a lot of alcohol vapor in it mimicking the angels share. Perhaps this could be used to determine when proper amount of pressurization cycles have been reached since we do know the amount of angels share / year in aging process.

                      Slainte, Riku

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > At first glance the article seemed to be about pressurising the alcohol into the wood, then releasing that pressure at the end of the process.
                      >
                      > But I think it is more about ebb and flow using different pressures over time. Similar to the natural heating and cooling of spirit in wooden barrels.
                      >
                      > The article did mention vessel pressures of 1 to 6000 psi.
                      >
                      > Although I have no testing data, I feel a similar aging process can be attained by oaking - in stainless vessels - at high, say 95%abv rather than lower 50 or 60%. My reasoning is that the higher abv fluid is less dense than lower abv and thus will more easily and deeply penetrate the fibres of the added oak.
                      >
                      > This method - in stainless containers - would I imagine, also reduce the "Angel's Share", as there would be no loss from migration of the spirit through the holding medium.
                      >
                      > -----------------------------------
                      >
                    • Dick Box
                      Of course they will carbonate. Look up Henry s Law. To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com From: thursty2@yahoo.com.au Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 23:23:29 +0000 Subject:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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                        Of course they will carbonate. Look up Henry's Law.


                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        From: thursty2@...
                        Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 23:23:29 +0000
                        Subject: [Distillers] Re: Pressurized aging?

                         


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Todd Stewart <xlcranium@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I agree about the Cornie keg. As a homebrewer, too, I have used them for years.
                        ><Snip>
                        > My only worry would be carbonating the spirit. Not that you can't de-gas it. But
                        >

                        Will ambient temperature spirit carbonate?

                        I know that my beers much prefer to be fridge cold before accepting carbonation.


                      • missouri_bootlegger
                        The amount movement of fluid in and out of the wood would depend on pressure differential. How much low pressure would a piece of wood hold. with the
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 3, 2011
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                          The amount movement of fluid in and out of the wood would depend on pressure differential. How much "low" pressure would a piece of wood hold. with the container made of wood the outside of the wood would be at 1 bar (1 atm). With the container sealed and the contents heated the inside would have a higher pressure thus moving liquid from a higher pressure to a lower pressure through the wood when cooled the pressure could become less than 1 bar thus forcing it to be removed from the wood. With a piece of wood inside the container and equal pressure on all sides some liquid would be forced into the wood to equalize the pressure but how much? would it be enough to achieve the desired results? given the surface area of the inside of a barrel and a constant pressure differential its hard to imagine that it would have the same results.
                          Maybe the substance in the wood that gives flavor changes properties under pressure (IE:changes to a liquid) and infuses the liquid more readily
                          Just some thoughts
                          also you would have to use nitrogen to pressurize the container CO2 will carbonate the liquid. I would not use O2 under high pressure mixed with a fuel source it might blow up

                          MB
                        • MoSS
                          Why not just pump/bubble, oak/peat/whatever smoke thru the distillate? Have to have a similar result, surely?
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 4, 2011
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                            Why not just pump/bubble, oak/peat/whatever smoke thru the distillate?
                            Have to have a similar result, surely?


                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "missouri_bootlegger" <siscoweb@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The amount movement of fluid in and out of the wood would depend on pressure differential. How much "low" pressure would a piece of wood hold. with the container made of wood the outside of the wood would be at 1 bar (1 atm). With the container sealed and the contents heated the inside would have a higher pressure thus moving liquid from a higher pressure to a lower pressure through the wood when cooled the pressure could become less than 1 bar thus forcing it to be removed from the wood. With a piece of wood inside the container and equal pressure on all sides some liquid would be forced into the wood to equalize the pressure but how much? would it be enough to achieve the desired results? given the surface area of the inside of a barrel and a constant pressure differential its hard to imagine that it would have the same results.
                            > Maybe the substance in the wood that gives flavor changes properties under pressure (IE:changes to a liquid) and infuses the liquid more readily
                            > Just some thoughts
                            > also you would have to use nitrogen to pressurize the container CO2 will carbonate the liquid. I would not use O2 under high pressure mixed with a fuel source it might blow up
                            >
                            > MB
                            >
                          • abbababbaccc
                            You get no oxygenation with nitrogen. I d try airpump meself, I have a nice handpump that can deliver 3000 psi ;) Slainte, Riku
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 4, 2011
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                              You get no oxygenation with nitrogen. I'd try airpump meself, I have a nice handpump that can deliver 3000 psi ;)

                              Slainte, Riku

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "missouri_bootlegger" <siscoweb@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The amount movement of fluid in and out of the wood would depend on pressure differential. How much "low" pressure would a piece of wood hold. with the container made of wood the outside of the wood would be at 1 bar (1 atm). With the container sealed and the contents heated the inside would have a higher pressure thus moving liquid from a higher pressure to a lower pressure through the wood when cooled the pressure could become less than 1 bar thus forcing it to be removed from the wood. With a piece of wood inside the container and equal pressure on all sides some liquid would be forced into the wood to equalize the pressure but how much? would it be enough to achieve the desired results? given the surface area of the inside of a barrel and a constant pressure differential its hard to imagine that it would have the same results.
                              > Maybe the substance in the wood that gives flavor changes properties under pressure (IE:changes to a liquid) and infuses the liquid more readily
                              > Just some thoughts
                              > also you would have to use nitrogen to pressurize the container CO2 will carbonate the liquid. I would not use O2 under high pressure mixed with a fuel source it might blow up
                              >
                              > MB
                              >
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