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Lalvin-ec 1118 for distilling?

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  • ToddS
    Woo-Hoo! My first post for the distiller s page... Long time homebrewer, recent convert to the home distiller. Been using Turbo Yeast for all my wash batches
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 26, 2010
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      Woo-Hoo! My first post for the distiller's page...
      Long time homebrewer, recent convert to the home distiller.

      Been using Turbo Yeast for all my wash batches in the past
      (have probably 10-15 batches ran through so far, some good, some
      not so much...) and have been thinking of testing a new yeast.

      I received an Amazon gift card for a recent birthday and ordered
      10packs of Lalvin-ec 1118 Champagne yeast. (Amazon doesn't carry
      turbo yeast apparently). I chose it since it has an alcohol
      tolerance up to 18% and requires low O2 for fermentation.

      I plan on proofing 1 pack in warm water prior to pitching, and
      adding plenty of nutrient to the wash. I will only use 1 pack as
      I'm doing a smaller 2.5gallon test batch (hopefully over pitching
      will help speed things along)... Standard recipe of about 6# Brown
      Sugar and warm water..

      Has anyone used wine yeast for something like this before and had
      decent results??

      Sorry to ask without looking through old threads, but other pages
      were several years old... was hoping for something a little more
      current.

      -XLC
    • jamesonbeam1
      Yes, Highly recommend EC-1118 yeast. It is a fast fermenting, high tolerance yeast with a very neutral profile. Been using it for years.. JB.
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 26, 2010
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        Yes,

        Highly recommend EC-1118 yeast. It is a fast fermenting, high tolerance
        yeast with a very neutral profile. Been using it for years..

        JB.


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ToddS" <xlcranium@...> wrote:
        >
        > Woo-Hoo! My first post for the distiller's page...
        > Long time homebrewer, recent convert to the home distiller.
        >
        > Been using Turbo Yeast for all my wash batches in the past
        > (have probably 10-15 batches ran through so far, some good, some
        > not so much...) and have been thinking of testing a new yeast.
        >
        > I received an Amazon gift card for a recent birthday and ordered
        > 10packs of Lalvin-ec 1118 Champagne yeast. (Amazon doesn't carry
        > turbo yeast apparently). I chose it since it has an alcohol
        > tolerance up to 18% and requires low O2 for fermentation.
        >
        > I plan on proofing 1 pack in warm water prior to pitching, and
        > adding plenty of nutrient to the wash. I will only use 1 pack as
        > I'm doing a smaller 2.5gallon test batch (hopefully over pitching
        > will help speed things along)... Standard recipe of about 6# Brown
        > Sugar and warm water..
        >
        > Has anyone used wine yeast for something like this before and had
        > decent results??
        >
        > Sorry to ask without looking through old threads, but other pages
        > were several years old... was hoping for something a little more
        > current.
        >
        > -XLC
        >
      • Harry
        ... Be sure to store that yeast as per instructions and use it in the timeframe recommended. Dead yeast ain t useful except as food for live yeast. I chose it
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 26, 2010
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          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ToddS" <xlcranium@...> wrote:
          >
          > Woo-Hoo! My first post for the distiller's page...
          > Long time homebrewer, recent convert to the home distiller.
          >
          > Been using Turbo Yeast for all my wash batches in the past
          > (have probably 10-15 batches ran through so far, some good, some
          > not so much...) and have been thinking of testing a new yeast.
          >
          > I received an Amazon gift card for a recent birthday and ordered
          > 10packs of Lalvin-ec 1118 Champagne yeast. (Amazon doesn't carry
          > turbo yeast apparently).

          Be sure to store that yeast as per instructions and use it in the timeframe recommended.  Dead yeast ain't useful except as food for live yeast.

           

          I chose it since it has an alcohol
          > tolerance up to 18% and requires low O2 for fermentation.

          Mind you don't fall into the newbie trap of maxing out your yeast/alc ratio.  Off-flavours is the result of stressed yeast fermentations.

           
          >
          > I plan on proofing 1 pack in warm water prior to pitching, and
          > adding plenty of nutrient to the wash.

          How much is 'plenty'?  Stick with recommended doses.  Too much nutrient = excess nitrogen which can carry over into distillation, react with copper and cause Sweizer's Reagent (blue colour) in you distillate.

          I will only use 1 pack as
          > I'm doing a smaller 2.5gallon test batch (hopefully over pitching
          > will help speed things along)...

          Over-pitching doesn't hurt.  Just be sure to clear as much yeast as possible before distillation.  Cooked yeast don't smell or taste nice and no amount of carbon filtering will make it any better.

           Standard recipe of about 6# Brown
          > Sugar and warm water..

          Yep.  6# in 2.5 gal should give you a potential of ~12-13% alc.  That's a stress-free fermentation to aim for.
          >
          > Has anyone used wine yeast for something like this before and had
          > decent results??

          EC-1118 is the standard workhorse in this game.
          >
          > Sorry to ask without looking through old threads, but other pages
          > were several years old... was hoping for something a little more
          > current.

          Nothing wrong with older (several years) info.  All the commercial products you like so much were made with info many generations in the making.

          Slainte!
          regards Harry
          http://distillers.tastylime.net

        • Alex Castillo
          Hi Jim, Probably now is a good time for asking about the way you keep (ranch) used yeast. As I remember you mentioned some time ago that you use this EC-1118
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 26, 2010
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            Hi Jim,

            Probably now is a good time for asking about the way you keep (ranch) used yeast. As I remember you mentioned some time ago that you use this EC-1118 for rum and reuse it during months/years. Did you say you freeze the trub (during how much time?) and later de-freeze it (how?) and re-use the yeast in a new conditioned ( right nutrient and sugar concentrations) wash/mash? Now that I´ve received those Lalvin´s strains I told you the other day, I think I wouldn´t buy more from them in at least one or two years.

            Alex
          • jamesonbeam1
            Hey Alex, Thats great! What I was discussing back with the JEM wash was just re-harvesting yeast from the trub of a fermentation by using it soon after a
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 26, 2010
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              Hey Alex,

              Thats great!  What I was discussing back with the JEM wash was just re-harvesting yeast from the trub of a fermentation by using it soon after a fermentation ended or by putting it in the refigerator for a while.  However, If you take this approach, you should not try reusing for more then 10 times or so according to sources (even though I did it 20 or more times), due to yeasts mutating and changing after so many re-harvests.

              The correct way to maintain a yeast strain for a long period of time is the way Dr. MB Raines-Casselman explains in her very good discussion on "Yeast Propagation and Maintenance" http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices 

               The proper way to keep a yeast strain pure for a long time is to create a starter or master batch and then keep drawing from that as you need it.  This may be kept in the refrige or frozen with some additives.   You can also use agar plates to grow it if ya want (more trouble then its worth in my book lol).  Listed below are some of her recommendations.  Frankly I would read her whole discussion of this first.    Let me know if ya have any questions.

              Good Luck.

              JB.

              Methods of Yeast Maintenance

              Maintaining and storing your own yeast stocks is both convenient and cost-effective.  Three major things must be considered when choosing a method of yeast storage.  These are yeast strain purity, viability and genetic stability.  Each of these differ depending on the method of preservation.  The one most suitable for homebrewers is somewhat controversial.  Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages and depends on personal preference as well as access to specialized equipment. 

               

              Media preparation.   It is important to point out that the media used for long-term storage should be sterile.  That means all micro-organisms including spores are destroyed.  This can be done by heating in an autoclave or pressure cooker for 15-30 minutes at 15 psi.  If this equipment is not available the media can be sterilized by tyndallization.  This is done by boiling the media for 15 minutes every other day for a week.  Note that this is similar to canning where the media is immersed in a pot of boiling water and boiled.  At least two to three successive boilings are necessary for complete sterilization.  Propagation media such as that used for starters need not be sterilized but has to be sanitized.  In this case it should be boiled for at least 15 minutes and used within two or three days of preparation.  Propagation media which is stored for any extensive length of time should be sterilized by one of the methods described above. 

               

              Master stocks.  In general, it is a good idea to keep two stock preparations of yeast; one which is referred to as a working stock and the other, a master stock.  The working stock is for routine use such as initiation of yeast propagation.  The master stock is used to preserve the integrity of the original yeast strain.  It is only used to replace the working stock or to propagate new master stocks.  New master stocks are prepared when viability of the current master stock may be diminished.  When this needs to be done depends on the yeast strain and the method of storage.  

               

              Liquid Media.  This is a common method of storage for homebrewers and has also been referred to as yeast ranching or parallel yeast culturing.  The best media for this method is wort or wort-containing media.  Yeast is inoculated into 10 - 20 ml of media and grown until it reaches the stationary phase of growth (approximately 3 days) then stored in the refrigerator as cold as possible (40 °F).  That means don't keep it on the door.  Stocks should be made in duplicate; one to use for brewing, the other as a stock.  Some homebrewers prefer to build the 10 ml culture upto a larger volume and then dispense it into 12 oz. bottles.  Storage in culture tubes or small jars also works fine.  If stored properly, these cultures are stable for up to 6 months and then must be recultured (preferably from the untouched master stock).  There are reports that storage in 10% sucrose after growth in wort can increase the shelf-life of yeast to as long as 2 years.  In this case, it seems to be necessary to remove all residual nutrients or wort since direct addition of sucrose to the stationary yeast leads to continued fermentation even at 40 °F.  Other bona-fide non-fermentable sugars such as lactose or glycerol may be more suitable but have yet to be tested for improving yeast's shelf-life.  Yeast strains vary in their sensitivity to storage in liquid wort.  In general, only a small percentage of the cells survive storage.  Therefore, it may be necessary to store in volumes larger than 10 ml especially if longer storage periods are used.  Culturing in wort has been extensively characterized by the National Collection of Yeast Cultures (NCYC).  They have cultured yeast for periods of up to 60 years and find that the mutation rate can be high.  Of 600 strains studied as many as 50% with specific nutritional markers had lost at least some of their specific markers after culturing for 10-25 years (that's after 20-50 passages).  This was for all types of yeast strains including brewing yeasts.  10% of the 300 brewing yeast strains tested showed changes in flocculation behavior after 10 years or 20 passages.  Thus storage in liquid media is feasible, but it is not the method of choice for long-term storage since it can undergo considerable genetic drift from the original stock.  It is not clear whether minimizing the number of passages will also reduce the overall mutation rate.

              Dried yeast-  Yeast is spotted onto a 1 inch square of sterile filter paper (Whatman 3MM) or a thick paper towel; wrapped in foil and dried (by desiccation) in the refrigerator for 2-3 weeks.  Yeast can be spotted in growth media but it is better to add yeast that is suspended in condensed skim milk!  Just let the yeast settle out of suspension, decant off the majority of liquid and resuspend in a small amount of evaporated skim milk from the grocery store.  Stored the dried yeast in an envelope in the refrigerator.  Although yeast maintained by this method is stable for 3-6 years, their manipulation during drying and resuscitation makes them more susceptible to contamination.  Dried yeast can be resuscitated by placing in liquid media or on a plate.  In general it should be streaked out on plates prior to use.  This method is commonly used for genetic strains of yeast.  I have successfully used this technique on brewing yeast, although the shelf-life and stability has yet to be determined.  Supposedly the Siebel Institute is exploring this issue.  In any case it is a great way to  send yeast around world.   

               

              With regard to the dry yeast packets available at most homebrew shops, not all brewing yeast are amenable to the propagation and drying procedures used in the dry yeast industry.  These yeast are typically grown to mass quantities in a dextrose/molasses mixture supplemented with nutrients at high temperatures (85°F).  These adverse conditions may induce mutation or alter their performance in wort.

               

              Freezing-  Yeast can be frozen if a cryoprotectant is added.  Glycerin and sucrose are commonly used and should be added to exponentially growing yeast at a final concentration of 5-15% (5-15 g/100 ml).  Yeast stored at ultra cold temperatures (in liquid nitrogen or -112 °F) are stable for almost indefinitely (at least over 5 years) with over 99% of the cells surviving freezing.  Freezing at higher temperatures (6.4 °F) yields shorter shelf-lives and less viability.  It is important that once you freeze your yeast that, it does not thaw.  This requires a really good quality non-frostfree freezer which maintains temperatures at or near 6.4 °F.  Some homebrewers place their tubes of in is some denatured alcohol which has a supercooling effect and helps stabilize the temperature.  Others imbed the tubes in ice.   If you're going to use this method freeze small aliquots (1-5 ml), then just thaw your yeastsicle and pitch it into a starter.

               

              Homebrewers are faced with a variety of options on maintaining their yeast (summarized in Table below).  The method of choice depends solely on the needs of the individual and their equipment.  We are fortunate that there is an ever increasing number of inexpensive commercial sources of  yeast so long-term storage by the homebrewer is not the necessity it once was.  No matter what source of yeast or how it is stored, further propagation along with adequate aeration and fermentation at the correct temperature are sure to  improve the quality of the beers you make at home.

               

                 Table 6.  Summary of methods for yeast storage.

               

              Method

              Shelf-life (years)

               

              Advantages /Disadvantages

               

              Liquid media

              0.5

              Convenient but low viability and stability, questionable purity

               

              Agar plate

              0.2-1

              Pure cultures but unreliable shelf-lives.

               

              Agar slant

              1-2

              Easy, reliable, but moderate shelf-life

               

              Agar stab

              2-4

              Easy, reliable, good shelf-life, but messy.

               

              Dried

              3-6

              Inconvenient, requires purification.

               

              Frozen

              >5

              Need special freezer or liquid nitrogen

               

               

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > Probably now is a good time for asking about the way you keep (ranch) used yeast. As I remember you mentioned some time ago that you use this EC-1118 for rum and reuse it during months/years. Did you say you freeze the trub (during how much time?) and later de-freeze it (how?) and re-use the yeast in a new conditioned ( right nutrient and sugar concentrations) wash/mash? Now that I´ve received those Lalvin´s strains I told you the other day, I think I wouldn´t buy more from them in at least one or two years.
              >
              > Alex
              >

            • Alex Castillo
              Thanks Jim, As always very complete answer. Got to study/read it. I do the same way yo do (as you tought me) save some 4 or 5 liters of the going fermentation
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 26, 2010
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                Thanks Jim,

                As always very complete answer. Got to study/read it.

                I do the same way yo do (as you tought me) save some 4 or 5 liters of the going fermentation and use it within 1 or 2 days after the fermentation is over going up to 7 - 10 times (I think was Wal who posted once that big guys only do it some seven times for comercial strains.

                BTW I just dumped the "wild starter" after observing what was growing (and like swimming, lol) on top of it. At least by now I´ll stick to the strains (by Lalleman/Lalvin) I told you and maybe even use some whisky strains, since now you have in the market (at least ours) rums like this: (blended with Whisky. Sorry it´s in Spanish)

                http://www.oliverinternacional.com/Productos.php?s_MARCA=Unhiq

                Alex
              • Derek Hamlet
                EC1118 is dirt cheap so I don t quite see the reason for using what s left over for another batch. In addition, wild yeasts usually turn out to be crap.
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 26, 2010
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                  EC1118 is dirt cheap so I don't quite see the reason for using what's
                  left over for another batch.
                  In addition, wild yeasts usually turn out to be crap. There's no
                  control and they seldom have much tolerance for alcohol and die out early.
                  There's a good reason why the commercial yeast industry is so successful.
                  1. It's high quality and repeatable and....
                  2. Specific yeasts bring out particular flavours from the ingredients.
                  For example, I almost always use D80 or D245 for my merlots and cabs
                  or a combination for two different mixes because I can aim for
                  particular flavours which appeal to my palate.
                  Those old continental guys who just crush grapes (or whatever) and
                  let the wild yeast do their thing often end up with very average or
                  sub average products.
                  But, for simple fermentations, particularly for things like gin,
                  vodka and rum, EC1118 is almost foolproof.

                  At 07:04 PM 11/26/2010, Alex Castillo wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Thanks Jim,
                  >
                  >As always very complete answer. Got to study/read it.
                  >
                  >I do the same way yo do (as you tought me) save some 4 or 5 liters
                  >of the going fermentation and use it within 1 or 2 days after the
                  >fermentation is over going up to 7 - 10 times (I think was Wal who
                  >posted once that big guys only do it some seven times for comercial strains.

                  Derek
                • Harry
                  ... Hear hear* Derek! The only deviation from this I would consider is a bread yeast for rums (they were commercially bred up on molasses beds, after all).
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 27, 2010
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                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > But, for simple fermentations, particularly for things like gin,
                    > vodka and rum, EC1118 is almost foolproof.



                    Hear hear* Derek! The only deviation from this I would consider is a bread yeast for rums (they were commercially bred up on molasses beds, after all). Those two (bread yeast & molasses) seem to complement each other in a fermentation, especially if you add some ground-up ripe sugar cane stalks to the rum mash. That adds all sorts of substrate-specific yeasts & bacteria (ala Oroyo). Oops! I've let another one slip. :)) Have fun & keep good notes!

                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                    http://distillers.tastylime.net

                    * •Hear, hear is an expression used as a short repeated form of hear him, hear him. It represents a listener's agreement with the point being made by a speaker.
                    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear
                  • Alex Castillo
                    Hi Harry, Are you saying to add bagasse to the fermenting wash? or is to cut the ripe sugar cane stalks (peeled/un-peeled?) in tiny chunks and add those? BTW
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 27, 2010
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                      Hi Harry,

                      Are you saying to add bagasse to the fermenting wash? or is to cut the ripe sugar cane stalks (peeled/un-peeled?) in tiny chunks and add those?

                      BTW what´s the rationale behind the addition of potato to a rum wash your GGGD used to do? How it is done (wash the vegetable and cut it in little peaces?) how much for a 20-25 liters wash (1 gal. molasses + 4 of water)

                      Alex

                      Thanks for the translation of hear-hear, I´d never figure out what does it mean.
                    • Alex Castillo
                      ... It depends where you live. That is probably true if you are in US, but ordering something via internet, then paying twice to be mailed (from whereever in
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 27, 2010
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > EC1118 is dirt cheap so I don't quite see the reason for using what's
                        > left over for another batch.

                        It depends where you live.  That is probably true if you are in US, but ordering something via internet, then paying twice to be mailed (from whereever in the states to Miami, them Miami to Dominican Republic, then From a given place in Santo Domingo to my Home, without adding the fact that you pay customs and look for foreign currency (US$ now are at 37 dominican pesos per dollar) makes you to consider reusing yeast.


                        > In addition, wild yeasts usually turn out to be crap. There's no
                        > control and they seldom have much tolerance for alcohol and die out early.

                        I like experimenting, and discover things for myself, don´t you?


                        > There's a good reason why the commercial yeast industry is so successful.
                        > 1. It's high quality and repeatable and....
                        > 2. Specific yeasts bring out particular flavours from the ingredients.

                         

                        In a former post I said that Schizosaccharomyces pombe strain costs some US$ 205 and Clostridium Saccharobutyricum costs US$ 255.  I just wanted to follow Arroyo´s method and probably I´ll do it someday.  After reading Fahrasmane´s research about yeast in the caribbean where he states that much molasses has the mentioned yeast worth a try, don´t  you think?


                        > For example, I almost always use D80 or D245 for my merlots and cabs
                        > or a combination for two different mixes because I can aim for
                        > particular flavours which appeal to my palate.

                        Taking note of those two.  Will they be good for rum?


                        > Those old continental guys who just crush grapes (or whatever) and
                        > let the wild yeast do their thing often end up with very average or
                        > sub average products.

                        I think I saw at History Channel that Samuel Adams beer is fermented using wild yeast, so wild not necessarily always mean bad. (BTW we don´t have that beer around here, so don´t know if it tastes good or not) but seems to be a famous beer, is it?


                        > But, for simple fermentations, particularly for things like gin,
                        > vodka and rum, EC1118 is almost foolproof.

                        Yep, for begginners.  Now that I already began with many fermentations and distillations I keep on moving forward experimenting with new strains and trying new ways of making better booze; and experimentation yesterday and today represents the real heart of science!
                        >
                        >

                        A!

                      • Harry
                        ... ripe sugar cane stalks (peeled/un-peeled?) in tiny chunks and add those? Ripe stalks unpeeled. Lightly crush the stalks with a mallet to break the rind
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 27, 2010
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                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Harry,
                          >
                          > Are you saying to add bagasse to the fermenting wash? or is to cut the ripe sugar cane stalks (peeled/un-peeled?) in tiny chunks and add those?

                          Ripe stalks unpeeled.  Lightly crush the stalks with a mallet to break the rind and expose the inner pith, then chop up into manageable sized pieces 3 inches or so.  DO NOT WASH.  That grey/white powder on the stalk is cane-specific wild yeasts.

                          >
                          > BTW what´s the rationale behind the addition of potato to a rum wash your GGGD used to do? How it is done (wash the vegetable and cut it in little peaces?) how much for a 20-25 liters wash (1 gal. molasses + 4 of water)
                          >

                          It was a common practice in the old days to use boiled potatoes or potato water in a starter to stimulate or 'kick-start' yeast growth & activity.  This was before yeast propagation became a science.  IOW before Louis Pasteur discovered what made yeast tick. GGGD was just doing what he learned from the others (Bakers & Brewers).

                          > Alex
                          >
                          > Thanks for the translation of hear-hear, I´d never figure out what does it mean.
                          >

                        • waljaco
                          In Belize they add sliced sugar canes into the distilling pot wash to get more flavor. wal
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 28, 2010
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                            In Belize they add sliced sugar canes into the distilling pot wash to get more flavor.
                            wal
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo"
                            > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hi Harry,
                            > >
                            > > Are you saying to add bagasse to the fermenting wash? or is to cut the
                            > ripe sugar cane stalks (peeled/un-peeled?) in tiny chunks and add those?
                            >
                            >
                            > Ripe stalks unpeeled. Lightly crush the stalks with a mallet to break
                            > the rind and expose the inner pith, then chop up into manageable sized
                            > pieces 3 inches or so. DO NOT WASH. That grey/white powder on the
                            > stalk is cane-specific wild yeasts.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > BTW what´s the rationale behind the addition of potato to a rum
                            > wash your GGGD used to do? How it is done (wash the vegetable and cut it
                            > in little peaces?) how much for a 20-25 liters wash (1 gal. molasses + 4
                            > of water)
                            > >
                            >
                            > It was a common practice in the old days to use boiled potatoes or
                            > potato water in a starter to stimulate or 'kick-start' yeast growth &
                            > activity. This was before yeast propagation became a science. IOW
                            > before Louis Pasteur discovered what made yeast tick. GGGD was just
                            > doing what he learned from the others (Bakers & Brewers).
                            >
                            > > Alex
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for the translation of hear-hear, I´d never figure out what
                            > does it mean.
                            > >
                            >
                          • Pete H
                            ... ... Does ec1118 require additional mutrients in a dextrose or sugar wash destined to become vodka?
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 28, 2010
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                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > EC1118 is dirt cheap so I don't quite see the reason for using what's
                              > left over for another batch.
                              <SNIP>
                              > But, for simple fermentations, particularly for things like gin,
                              > vodka and rum, EC1118 is almost foolproof.
                              >

                              Does ec1118 require additional mutrients in a dextrose or sugar wash destined to become vodka?
                            • Harry
                              ... Yes. There s no growth stimulators (yeast nutrients) in sugar washes. Check here in my Library for a primer...
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 28, 2010
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                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > EC1118 is dirt cheap so I don't quite see the reason for using what's
                                > > left over for another batch.
                                > <SNIP>
                                > > But, for simple fermentations, particularly for things like gin,
                                > > vodka and rum, EC1118 is almost foolproof.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Does ec1118 require additional mutrients in a dextrose or sugar wash destined to become vodka?
                                >


                                Yes. There's no growth stimulators (yeast nutrients) in sugar washes. Check here in my Library for a primer...
                                http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/LallemandNutrients/index.htm
                                ...and always check with Lallemand itself for the latest info.


                                Slainte!
                                regards Harry
                                http://distillers.tastylime.net
                              • jamesonbeam1
                                Yup Alex, Harry s GG Granddad was way ahead of his time. Even Today with all the modern technology, as stated by Dr. MB Reines-Casselman: The standard
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 29, 2010
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                                  Yup Alex,

                                  Harry's GG Granddad was way ahead of his time.   Even Today with all the modern technology, as stated by Dr. MB Reines-Casselman:  "The standard laboratory media for growing and maintaining yeast include YPD, potato dextrose, and sabouraud dextrose. "

                                  Tis interesting how these old timers knew so much.  Even when I was discussing modern techniques with Bossy on fermenting and distilling mango and star fruits, he mentioned how the natives would add potatoes to the fermentations to give it the yeast nutrients in the Seychelles Islands, located in the Indian Ocean which was the traditional way to ferment far before Pasteur's time.

                                  JB.


                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote>

                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo"
                                  > castillo.alex2008@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Harry,
                                  > >
                                  > > BTW what´s the rationale behind the addition of potato to a rum
                                  > wash your GGGD used to do? How it is done (wash the vegetable and cut it
                                  > in little peaces?) how much for a 20-25 liters wash (1 gal. molasses + 4
                                  > of water)
                                  > >------------snip
                                  >
                                  > It was a common practice in the old days to use boiled potatoes or
                                  > potato water in a starter to stimulate or 'kick-start' yeast growth &
                                  > activity. This was before yeast propagation became a science. IOW
                                  > before Louis Pasteur discovered what made yeast tick. GGGD was just
                                  > doing what he learned from the others (Bakers & Brewers).

                                • Alex Castillo
                                  Hey Jim, That´s what I thought! Addition of dextrose will smooth rum! Can you give me some pointers on what amount of potatoes (peeled/unpeeled?) or pure
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 30, 2010
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                                    Hey Jim,

                                    That´s what I thought! Addition of dextrose will smooth rum! Can you give me some pointers on what amount of potatoes (peeled/unpeeled?) or pure dextrose for a one gallon molasses/4 gallons water batch?

                                    At the time I´m writing this reply, I´m sipping two nice Dominican rum: Ron Atlantico Private Cask

                                    http://tinyurl.com/34r4t2e

                                    and Cubaney 21 (years old) solera.

                                    http://www.oliverinternacional.com/Productos.php?s_MARCA=Cubaney&s_PRODNAME=Exquisito+21+A%F1os

                                    They´re so smooth!, that smell of chocolate and absolute fabulous flavors that explode in the mouth united with their unique smoothness it´s just amazing! but I´m reluctant to beleive that they´ve waited so many years to achive those masterpieces; simply uneconomically unbeliavable. So they must be using some of those propietary tricks that we don´t know yet and maybe that potato or dextrose addition during fermentation leads to that direction.

                                    Alex
                                    the rumland aficionado
                                  • waljaco
                                    There is enough dextrose (glucose) when yeast split sucrose into fructose and glucose. wal
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 1, 2010
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                                      There is enough dextrose (glucose) when yeast split sucrose into fructose and glucose.
                                      wal

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hey Jim,
                                      >
                                      > That´s what I thought! Addition of dextrose will smooth rum! Can you give me some pointers on what amount of potatoes (peeled/unpeeled?) or pure dextrose for a one gallon molasses/4 gallons water batch?
                                      >
                                      > At the time I´m writing this reply, I´m sipping two nice Dominican rum: Ron Atlantico Private Cask
                                      >
                                      > http://tinyurl.com/34r4t2e
                                      >
                                      > and Cubaney 21 (years old) solera.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.oliverinternacional.com/Productos.php?s_MARCA=Cubaney&s_PRODNAME=Exquisito+21+A%F1os
                                      >
                                      > They´re so smooth!, that smell of chocolate and absolute fabulous flavors that explode in the mouth united with their unique smoothness it´s just amazing! but I´m reluctant to beleive that they´ve waited so many years to achive those masterpieces; simply uneconomically unbeliavable. So they must be using some of those propietary tricks that we don´t know yet and maybe that potato or dextrose addition during fermentation leads to that direction.
                                      >
                                      > Alex
                                      > the rumland aficionado
                                      >
                                    • jamesonbeam1
                                      Alex, The dextrose in potato dextrose agar (PDA) or potato dextrose broth (PDB) comes from corn syrup, not the potatoes. Its the broth from the potatoes that
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 1, 2010
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                                        Alex,

                                        The dextrose in potato dextrose agar (PDA) or potato dextrose broth (PDB) comes from corn syrup, not the potatoes.  Its the broth from the potatoes that has the nutrients:

                                        Potato dextrose agar (FDA M127)(abbreviated "PDA") and potato dextrose broth (abbreviated "PDB") are common microbiological media made from potato infusion, and dextrose (corn sugar). Potato dextrose agar is the most widely used medium for growing fungi and bacteria which attack living plants or decay dead plant matter.[1]

                                        Potato infusion can be made by boiling 300g of sliced (washed but unpeeled) potatoes in water for 30 minutes and then decanting or straining the broth through cheesecloth. Distilled water is added such that the total volume of the suspension is one litre. 20g dextrose and 20g agar agar powder is then added and the medium is sterilized by autoclaving at 15psi for 15 minutes.[2]   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_dextrose_agar

                                        Now Harry's GGG dad took 8 lbs of old potatos which were boiled and put in a muslin bag  and let them sit in the fermentation which was 32 gallons water, 20 lbs. of sugar and 12 lbs. of molasses.   Bossy's old lady friend that used the traditional way to ferment mango added "a couple of pounds".   I would try a couple of pounds of boiled potatoes for a 5 gallon ferementation, but try cutting them up and putting in cheesecloth before letting them soak in the fermentation.

                                        JB.

                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hey Jim,
                                        >
                                        > That´s what I thought! Addition of dextrose will smooth rum! Can you give me some pointers on what amount of potatoes (peeled/unpeeled?) or pure dextrose for a one gallon molasses/4 gallons water batch?
                                        >
                                        > At the time I´m writing this reply, I´m sipping two nice Dominican rum: Ron Atlantico Private Cask
                                        >
                                        > http://tinyurl.com/34r4t2e
                                        >
                                        > and Cubaney 21 (years old) solera.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.oliverinternacional.com/Productos.php?s_MARCA=Cubaney&s_PRODNAME=Exquisito+21+A%F1os
                                        >
                                        > They´re so smooth!, that smell of chocolate and absolute fabulous flavors that explode in the mouth united with their unique smoothness it´s just amazing! but I´m reluctant to beleive that they´ve waited so many years to achive those masterpieces; simply uneconomically unbeliavable. So they must be using some of those propietary tricks that we don´t know yet and maybe that potato or dextrose addition during fermentation leads to that direction.
                                        >
                                        > Alex
                                        > the rumland aficionado
                                        >

                                      • jamesonbeam1
                                        Sidenote: That was 12 gallons of molasses, not lbs. that Harry s GGG-dad used. JB. ... put ... gallons. snip
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 1, 2010
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                                          Sidenote:

                                          That was 12 gallons of molasses, not lbs. that Harry's GGG-dad used.

                                          JB.


                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Alex,
                                          >
                                          > Now Harry's GGG dad took 8 lbs of old potatos which were boiled and put
                                          > in a muslin bag and let them sit in the fermentation which was 32
                                          > gallons water, 20 lbs. of sugar and 12 lbs. of molasses.   sb. gallons.

                                          snip

                                        • Todd Stewart
                                          Sorry to go back to this Lalvin Subject... but started a 3gallon batch this past weekend with 1 packet of Lalvin yeast... anyone have an idea on how long for
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                                            Sorry to go back to this Lalvin Subject... but started a 3gallon batch this past weekend
                                            with 1 packet of Lalvin yeast... anyone have an idea on how long for that yeast to go
                                            terminal in about 1.100 wash (with nutrient)  ??

                                            Assuming 75% ADF, I should finish around 1.025... I can take a gravity reading, but
                                            would rather leave it alone... 2 weeks sound about right if left around 68?

                                            I've gotten use to the Turbo Yeast ripping through in 5 days.. Sorry, I get impatient, haha.

                                            -XLC

                                          • jamesonbeam1
                                            Todd, EC-1118 is a very good fast acting yeast. I have fermented a 1.1oo or so wash in 5 days *less if you use a good starter or the leftover trub*. Look up
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 17, 2010
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                                              Todd,

                                              EC-1118 is a very good fast acting yeast. I have fermented a 1.1oo or
                                              so wash in 5 days *less if you use a good starter or the leftover trub*.
                                              Look up my recipe for the JEM wash in New Distillers.

                                              JB.


                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Todd Stewart <xlcranium@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Sorry to go back to this Lalvin Subject... but started a 3gallon batch
                                              this past
                                              > weekend
                                              > with 1 packet of Lalvin yeast... anyone have an idea on how long for
                                              that yeast
                                              > to go
                                              >
                                              > terminal in about 1.100 wash (with nutrient) ??
                                              >
                                              > Assuming 75% ADF, I should finish around 1.025... I can take a gravity
                                              reading,
                                              > but
                                              > would rather leave it alone... 2 weeks sound about right if left
                                              around 68?
                                              >
                                              > I've gotten use to the Turbo Yeast ripping through in 5 days.. Sorry,
                                              I get
                                              > impatient, haha.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -XLC
                                              >
                                            • Todd Stewart
                                              Haha, miracle-gro and rockstar?? Did I find the right one?? I m all on board with the Rockstar addition!! And with saving the trub from the 1118 that might go
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Dec 17, 2010
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                                                Haha, miracle-gro and rockstar?? Did I find the right one??

                                                I'm all on board with the Rockstar addition!! And with saving the trub from the 1118
                                                that might go perfect with the Jaggery experiment I have lined up...
                                                (6.6#  Jaggery (3kg)   into  3 gal water)

                                                I typically combine brown sugar with white sugar and a touch of key lime juice
                                                to invert to start with...   Think I should worry about inverting Jaggery??

                                                I've made this recipe before and add cardamom and coriander to the pot for the
                                                second distillation.  I've been calling it Gol-Dhana Arrack..  I haven't found a person
                                                of Indian Decent yet to tell me if that's right or not

                                                -todd



                                                From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:39:26 AM
                                                Subject: [Distillers] Re: Lalvin-ec 1118

                                                 


                                                Todd,

                                                EC-1118 is a very good fast acting yeast. I have fermented a 1.1oo or
                                                so wash in 5 days *less if you use a good starter or the leftover trub*.
                                                Look up my recipe for the JEM wash in New Distillers.

                                                JB.

                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Todd Stewart <xlcranium@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Sorry to go back to this Lalvin Subject... but started a 3gallon batch
                                                this past
                                                > weekend
                                                > with 1 packet of Lalvin yeast... anyone have an idea on how long for
                                                that yeast
                                                > to go
                                                >
                                                > terminal in about 1.100 wash (with nutrient) ??
                                                >
                                                > Assuming 75% ADF, I should finish around 1.025... I can take a gravity
                                                reading,
                                                > but
                                                > would rather leave it alone... 2 weeks sound about right if left
                                                around 68?
                                                >
                                                > I've gotten use to the Turbo Yeast ripping through in 5 days.. Sorry,
                                                I get
                                                > impatient, haha.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -XLC
                                                >


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