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Adding hydrogen peroxide to aging liquors

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  • tgfoitwoods
    A while back, we discussed using 3% hydrogen peroxide to oxidize the harsh wood compounds in oak-aged liquor. I ve searched everywhere, and while I can find
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 3, 2010
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      A while back, we discussed using 3% hydrogen peroxide to oxidize the
      harsh wood compounds in oak-aged liquor. I've searched everywhere, and
      while I can find the discussion (and almost nothing on the rest of the
      web), I have found no recommendations as to the amount of H2O2 to add.
      If I knew how much oxygen a liter of oaked booze requires, I could
      calculate it.

      I seem to remember that someone (I'm thinkin' it was you, Harry) had a
      recommendation for quantity to add. It couldn't be much more than a
      couple of milliliters per liter, I'm guessing.

      I need to know because I'm comparing shake-the-jug, and
      airstone-bubbling as oxidation techniques.

      Oh yeah! I found an interesting article on oxidizing/aging that
      involved, ozone, a refrigerator, and a vibrator. Sounds like cold
      comfort to me.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
    • castillo.alex2008
      Hey ZBob You´re taking about message 40931 from here Distillers, where Harry recomends 1 teaspoon in 4 liters. Around here I heared that one old distilling
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 3, 2010
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        Hey ZBob

        You´re taking about message 40931 from here Distillers, where Harry recomends 1 teaspoon in 4 liters. Around here I heared that one old distilling company was adding potassium permanganate (don´t know amount) and was shorten to half (from one year to six months) the aging process (around here by law rum must be aged at least one year and our IRS office they take it very serously). I also heared that other company heats oak chips to extract the most of it and uses ozone to pre-treat their rum-to-be alcohol. I want you to give me more info about your airstone bubbling since for sure oxigen will add to aging, I´d like to know where can you buy it. I remember in an old post a Venezuelan guy said used something similar with good results. I have access to a lab oilless diaphragm vacuum pump and compressor but I´m not sure if that diaphragm is made up of plastic or not (GAST brand name).

        In the other hand I´d like to experiment with bacteria following arroyo´s method but I´m not sure if I´ll get similar results than the ones I get with Danstill EDV´s. (and also the strains are very expensive running about US$200). Considering the fact that arroyo´s experiment was back in 1945 and this yeast was not isolated back them, there are chances that the results could be the same. Probably Harry or Jim can add some to this.

        P.D. Where is Mason?

        Alex
      • Harry
        Comments inline... ... Yes. Specifically, I use 6% H2O2 available at most chemist s. But the 3% stuff from the chain stores will do. Just double the dosage
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 3, 2010
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          Comments inline...

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey ZBob
          >
          > You´re taking about message 40931 from here Distillers, where Harry recomends 1 teaspoon in 4 liters.

          Yes. Specifically, I use 6% H2O2 available at most chemist's. But the 3% stuff from the chain stores will do. Just double the dosage (obviously).
          Dosage:
          H2O2 @ 6% = 1 tsp (5ml) per 4 Lit spirit @ 65% abv


          Around here I heared that one old distilling company was adding potassium permanganate (don´t know amount) and was shorten to half (from one year to six months) the aging process (around here by law rum must be aged at least one year and our IRS office they take it very serously).

          Pot.permanganate is a strong oxidiser just like peroxide. Potassium permanganate (KMnO4) is used primarily to control taste and odors, remove color, control biological growth in treatment plants, and remove iron and manganese.
          However, KMnO4 crystals needs to be carefully handled. It is a skin & eye irritant and can be fatal if accidentally swallowed.
          Potassium permanganate is used to remove taste and odor causing compounds. Lalezary et al. (1986)used permanganate to treat earthy-musty smelling compounds in drinking water.
          Doses of potassium permanganate used to treat taste and odor causing compounds range from 0.25 to 20 mg/L.
          Potassium permanganate is reduced to manganese dioxide (MnO2) (Mn 4+) which precipitates out of solution (Hazen and
          Sawyer, 1992). All reactions are exothermic.



          I also heared that other company heats oak chips to extract the most of it and uses ozone to pre-treat their rum-to-be alcohol. I want you to give me more info about your airstone bubbling since for sure oxigen will add to aging, I´d like to know where can you buy it. I remember in an old post a Venezuelan guy said used something similar with good results. I have access to a lab oilless diaphragm vacuum pump and compressor but I´m not sure if that diaphragm is made up of plastic or not (GAST brand name).
          >


          Dr. Clayton Cone (White Labs, retired) says:
          "White Rum can be aged in a covered stainless steel drum with a small opening. Trickle a small stream of air through the white Rum for up to 1 year. A small aquarium pump and air distributor system can be used. This removes unpleasant esters. This is what we do with some Tequila."

          Experiences by myself, ZB & many other members who've used forced air while aging confirm the good doctor's recommendation.


          > In the other hand I´d like to experiment with bacteria following arroyo´s method but I´m not sure if I´ll get similar results than the ones I get with Danstill EDV´s. (and also the strains are very expensive running about US$200). Considering the fact that arroyo´s experiment was back in 1945 and this yeast was not isolated back them, there are chances that the results could be the same. Probably Harry or Jim can add some to this.


          Rum made from cane juice has "Rhum Agricole" on the label. These are the Rums from Martinique and Guadeloupe . Most of the other Rums are from Blackstrap.

          Originally all Rum was made from Blackstrap molasses because the primary and more valuable product was sugar. Blackstrap was just a cheap waste product that had to be disposed of. With the change in the sugar market and different country's price or lack of price support there was no outlet for sugar in some of the islands. So the sugar extraction stage was discontinued, and the fresh-squeezed cane juice was sent directly to the fermentors.

          Needless to say, Blackstrap molasses is very low in bacteria because of the heating and osmotic pressure while cane juice is very high in bacteria because there is no heat applied at any stage until it goes to the still. As a result, there are a lot of congeners coming from bacteria in cane juice fermentation. There is always a struggle at the distillery to maintain the right balance of infection to produce the congeners without stopping the fermentation due to the infection. Some cane molasses rum producers add lactic and acetic acid bacteria at a certain time of the fermentation to produce these congeners.



          >
          > P.D. Where is Mason?


          Up to his arse in crocodiles (translation: WORK) :))

          HTH

          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • castillo.alex2008
          Hey Harry. Let me take a minute of your time to ask you a few questions. 1. Some time ago you posted about that the worst material for a boiler is aluminum,
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 3, 2010
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            Hey Harry.

            Let me take a minute of your time to ask you a few questions.

            1. Some time ago you posted about that the worst material for a boiler is aluminum, but could be ok to be used as a masher (i.e for whiskey or clarifying molasses). Reason is that SS same large (5 gallons) is about 10 times as expensive as the aluminun one.

            2. For the same reason, as I know you clarify your molasses at a ratio of 4 to 1 (water/molasses) but reading Murthag from The alcohol textbook who recommends to dilute to 40 Brix (that´ll be 1 to 1), Will diluting at a ratio of 2 to 1 (hot water/molasses) and letting it rest overnight work? Personally I don´t but after reading from several sources about it I´m considering it.

            3. Around here I can easly get the 3% H2O2 so plan to use some 10 ml per gallon, so how much time is needed to get aceptable results, two months perhaps (now I age several months but an extra help won´t hurt)

            4. About the aquarium pump I think I saw a thread called like chateau Michellin or some similar name in which It was agreed that those pumps had a plastic diagphram with detrimental results in the flavor of the booze, so what your saying is that it could be used putting in between some kind of thumper?

            Thanks

            Alex
          • tgfoitwoods
            Thanks Harry, That s exactly what I was looking for. This is for the book, and while I ve known about potassium permanganate for spirit oxidation, and played
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 3, 2010
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              Thanks Harry,

              That's exactly what I was looking for. This is for the book, and while I've known about potassium permanganate for spirit oxidation, and played with it as a kid, I'm uncomfortable with exposing an uninformed reader to the concept of dumping what used to come in a bottle with skull and crossbones on it, into his drink. Call me chicken.

              As far as I know, the strongest H2O2 you can buy in pharmacies or supermarkets in the US is 3%. That can be used as a gargle, so I'm comfortable with letting the masses play with it.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > Comments inline...
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey ZBob
              > >
              > > You´re taking about message 40931 from here Distillers, where Harry recomends 1 teaspoon in 4 liters.
              >
              > Yes. Specifically, I use 6% H2O2 available at most chemist's. But the 3% stuff from the chain stores will do. Just double the dosage (obviously).
              > Dosage:
              > H2O2 @ 6% = 1 tsp (5ml) per 4 Lit spirit @ 65% abv
              >
              >
              > Around here I heared that one old distilling company was adding potassium permanganate (don´t know amount) and was shorten to half (from one year to six months) the aging process (around here by law rum must be aged at least one year and our IRS office they take it very serously).
              >
              > Pot.permanganate is a strong oxidiser just like peroxide. Potassium permanganate (KMnO4) is used primarily to control taste and odors, remove color, control biological growth in treatment plants, and remove iron and manganese.
              > However, KMnO4 crystals needs to be carefully handled. It is a skin & eye irritant and can be fatal if accidentally swallowed.
              > Potassium permanganate is used to remove taste and odor causing compounds. Lalezary et al. (1986)used permanganate to treat earthy-musty smelling compounds in drinking water.
              > Doses of potassium permanganate used to treat taste and odor causing compounds range from 0.25 to 20 mg/L.
              > Potassium permanganate is reduced to manganese dioxide (MnO2) (Mn 4+) which precipitates out of solution (Hazen and
              > Sawyer, 1992). All reactions are exothermic.
              >
              ---snip----
            • Harry
              Hiya Alex. Long time no hear. ... Alu is ok for a mash tun. ... 40°Brix is for initial clarification and step-feeding, but not for establishing a vigorous
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 3, 2010
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                Hiya Alex. Long time no hear.

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey Harry.
                >
                > Let me take a minute of your time to ask you a few questions.
                >
                > 1. Some time ago you posted about that the worst material for a boiler is aluminum, but could be ok to be used as a masher (i.e for whiskey or clarifying molasses). Reason is that SS same large (5 gallons) is about 10 times as expensive as the aluminun one.


                Alu is ok for a mash tun.

                >
                > 2. For the same reason, as I know you clarify your molasses at a ratio of 4 to 1 (water/molasses) but reading Murthag from The alcohol textbook who recommends to dilute to 40 Brix (that´ll be 1 to 1),

                40°Brix is for initial clarification and step-feeding, but not for establishing a vigorous ferment. TAT4 (in my new Library section @
                http://distillers.tastylime.net/newSite/ ) has this to say...

                "Some plants are finding it necessary to sterilize and clarify before fermentation, while others employ dextranase to ensure maximum extraction of whatever sugar is present. This is accomplished
                by diluting the molasses to approximately 40°Brix, then heating it. Gums and other suspended solids drop out of the diluted solution.

                Molasses at 80°Brix will not ferment without dilution as the sugars and salts exert a very high osmotic pressure. It is therefore necessary to dilute the molasses to below 25°Brix. Yeast will not start fermenting rapidly above this point; and contamination may develop before the yeast become established since molasses is laden with contaminating bacteria. Some distilleries acidify the wash to help reduce infection. Sulfate added at this point can come out later as calcium sulfate scale in the wash column.
                Brix values of about 25° are the highest osmotic pressure that yeast will tolerate to begin fermentation, however this means a low sugar
                content and potential low fermentor alcohol levels. If sugar content is initially 46%, then dilution to 25°Brix results in only ~14.3% sugar (Calculated: 25 x 46/80 = 14.3). This results in about 8% alcohol. This is low by today's standards and results in high hydraulic loading and large volumes of effluent. One way to
                increase the alcohol content of the fermentation is by incremental feeding. After the fermentation has been going several hours and has dropped to 15 or 16°Brix, additional molasses (at 40°Brix) is added to bring concentration to 20°Brix and this mixture is then fermented. This allows yeast to become rapidly established."



                That's the way my GGGrandaddy did it. He was a poorly educated man, non-scientific. But he knew how to make good rum. :)






                Will diluting at a ratio of 2 to 1 (hot water/molasses) and letting it rest overnight work? Personally I don´t but after reading from several sources about it I´m considering it.

                Take your cue from the above. Trial & error, + keeping good notes. That's what makes for repeatability.



                >
                > 3. Around here I can easly get the 3% H2O2 so plan to use some 10 ml per gallon, so how much time is needed to get aceptable results, two months perhaps (now I age several months but an extra help won´t hurt)


                A lot depends on the size of the aging vessel. Small casks up to 6 gallons or so, or equivalent containers & oak chips, will age fine in a couple of months. Bigger 200 litre kegs will take much longer. It's about wood surface to liquid exposure ratio.

                >
                > 4. About the aquarium pump I think I saw a thread called like chateau Michellin or some similar name in which It was agreed that those pumps had a plastic diagphram with detrimental results in the flavor of the booze, so what your saying is that it could be used putting in between some kind of thumper?



                Someone else on here took the simple step of setting the pump up in the reverse, to SUCK air through the spirit using a copper tube snorkel inlet.
                Air, copper snorkel into product container, another outlet attached to the pump's normal air INTAKE. Works like a charm. The only mod I would make is to fit a simple gauze filter to the snorkel to keep the bugs out. But it's a brilliant idea nonetheless.


                >
                > Thanks
                >
                > Alex
                >


                YW.
                Slainte!
                regards Harry
              • mav
                ... Someone else on here took the simple step of setting the pump up in the reverse, to SUCK air through the spirit using a copper tube snorkel inlet. Air,
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 5, 2010
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hiya Alex. Long time no hear.
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" castillo.alex2008@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hey Harry.
                  > >  
                  > > Thanks
                  > >
                  > > Alex
                  > >
                  > YW.
                  > Slainte!
                  > regards Harry
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

                  Someone else on here took the simple step of setting the pump up in the reverse,
                  to SUCK air through the spirit using a copper tube snorkel inlet.
                  Air, copper snorkel into product container, another outlet attached to the
                  pump's normal air INTAKE. Works like a charm. The only mod I would make is to
                  fit a simple gauze filter to the snorkel to keep the bugs out. But it's a
                  brilliant idea nonetheless.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

                  Hi Harry and every one, I must missed the H2O2 topic or forgot about so I'm glad it has come up again, I'll will try it this Rum season, in a few weeks hopefully. 

                  It's been too cold down here in Victoria (AUS), even Darwin recorded it's coldest day in November 3/11/10 at 25.6 C, broke a nine year record.

                  I better get to my point, the simple modification to a cheap fish air pump that Harry mentioned.

                  Just simply seal the air pump case and a another tube barb like in the picture below. 

                  http://tinyurl.com/2e72jmj

                  [IMG]http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii265/mavnkaf/P1010006.jpg[/IMG]

                  If you look around a bit there you might see a new mod for Harry's cross flow LM/VM still head.  It isn't Harry's secret one but it's a good one to try out.  I hope it's ok to mention here?

                  Cheers Marc

                  Ps. Rum will come soon and all will be equal, at least in my worldJ

                   

                • duds2u
                  ... Harry, How often would you add this in the aging process, 3 months, 6 months or longer? Cheers Mal
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 23, 2010
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                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Comments inline...
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hey ZBob
                    > >
                    > > You´re taking about message 40931 from here Distillers, where Harry recomends 1 teaspoon in 4 liters.
                    >
                    > Yes. Specifically, I use 6% H2O2 available at most chemist's. But the 3% stuff from the chain stores will do. Just double the dosage (obviously).
                    > Dosage:
                    > H2O2 @ 6% = 1 tsp (5ml) per 4 Lit spirit @ 65% abv
                    >
                    >Big snip
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry

                    >
                    Harry, How often would you add this in the aging process, 3 months, 6 months or longer?
                    Cheers
                    Mal
                  • Harry
                    ... Once only, at the start of aging when you add your oak chips. Slainte! regards harry
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 24, 2010
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                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" <taylormc@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > Harry, How often would you add this in the aging process, 3 months, 6 months or longer?
                      > Cheers
                      > Mal
                      >


                      Once only, at the start of aging when you add your oak chips.



                      Slainte!
                      regards harry
                    • atticpc
                      Hi Harry In the thread you say to only add hydrogen peroxide once right at the start of the ageing process. I have a batch of UJSM which has been ageing on
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 26, 2010
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                        Hi Harry

                        In the thread you say to only add hydrogen peroxide once right at the start of the ageing process. I have a batch of UJSM which has been ageing on oak for the last 6 months or so. I'm not convinced about the taste - it seems to have a woody undertone that is not particularly nice.

                        So any thoughts on what would happen if you add the hydrogen peroxide 6 months into the process?

                        Thanks
                      • Harry
                        ... Sounds to me like it s over-oaked. If that has happened at 6 months you must be doing small lots (under 2 gallons?) and/or you may be using too much oak.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 26, 2010
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                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Harry
                          >
                          > In the thread you say to only add hydrogen peroxide once right at the start of the ageing process. I have a batch of UJSM which has been ageing on oak for the last 6 months or so. I'm not convinced about the taste - it seems to have a woody undertone that is not particularly nice.
                          >
                          > So any thoughts on what would happen if you add the hydrogen peroxide 6 months into the process?
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          >


                          Sounds to me like it's over-oaked. If that has happened at 6 months you must be doing small lots (under 2 gallons?) and/or you may be using too much oak. 5g per litre is the ideal dosage rate for small container aging.

                          Best bet is to take it off wood and blend in 'neutral' clear spirit a little at a time, until tasteing determines you've evened it out some and made it more acceptable. In future, test taste your aging spirits at more frequent intervals. There's an optimum time in/on wood, beyond which spirits actually degrade as a single spirit and are only useful as blenders. For small container aging ( <2 gal ) 2 months appears to produce a nice balance of colour & flavours. But it's up to you to test & determine for yourself what you like and when to remove the wood.


                          HTH


                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
                          http://distillers.tastylime.net
                        • atticpc
                          Hi Harry Yah - I figure that you are correct and that I over oaked - so chances are that I will just re-run and turn it into vodka. Probably work OK for a hot
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 29, 2010
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                            Hi Harry

                            Yah - I figure that you are correct and that I over oaked - so chances are that I will just re-run and turn it into vodka. Probably work OK for a hot whiskey though. I had been using about 5g per litre, but ageing in 5 litre demijohn - so quantities were a bit small.

                            I thought that I had the quantity of oak down at a nice low level - so was giving it plenty of time. Ah well. Lessons learned.
                          • waljaco
                            White rum manufacturers remove oak with activated carbon. Wine makers remove tannins with gelatine fining. wal
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 29, 2010
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                              White rum manufacturers remove oak with activated carbon. Wine makers remove tannins with gelatine fining.
                              wal

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Harry
                              >
                              > Yah - I figure that you are correct and that I over oaked - so chances are that I will just re-run and turn it into vodka. Probably work OK for a hot whiskey though. I had been using about 5g per litre, but ageing in 5 litre demijohn - so quantities were a bit small.
                              >
                              > I thought that I had the quantity of oak down at a nice low level - so was giving it plenty of time. Ah well. Lessons learned.
                              >
                            • atticpc
                              Hi Wal I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again. Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 1, 2010
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                                Hi Wal

                                I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.

                                Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.

                                One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.

                                The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.

                                All a part of the fun of the craft.
                              • Pete H
                                My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty s are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 2, 2010
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                                  My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty's are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips cut to fit through the neck. A Jack D bottle was ideal for this with its wide neck.

                                  When bottling a dark rum, (vodka & essence) I add 25 ml of the oaked 95% to 2.25 ltrs of the rum. I also have a vanilla quill sitting in 95% vodka. I add 5ml of this liquid to the rum.

                                  So far, I'm liking the taste.

                                  In this thread it has been mentioned that 5gm per ltr should be used. Is that 5gm of chips?

                                  ------------------------------

                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Wal
                                  >
                                  > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                  >
                                  > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                  >
                                  > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                  >
                                  > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                  >
                                  > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                  >
                                • waljaco
                                  If you do the calculations, 5g/l is equivalent to a 200l oak barrel. wal
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 2, 2010
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                                    If you do the calculations, 5g/l is equivalent to a 200l oak barrel.
                                    wal

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Wal
                                    >
                                    > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                    >
                                    > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                    >
                                    > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                    >
                                    > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                    >
                                    > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                    >
                                  • waljaco
                                    Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak. wal
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 2, 2010
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                                      Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                      wal

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty's are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips cut to fit through the neck. A Jack D bottle was ideal for this with its wide neck.
                                      >
                                      > When bottling a dark rum, (vodka & essence) I add 25 ml of the oaked 95% to 2.25 ltrs of the rum. I also have a vanilla quill sitting in 95% vodka. I add 5ml of this liquid to the rum.
                                      >
                                      > So far, I'm liking the taste.
                                      >
                                      > In this thread it has been mentioned that 5gm per ltr should be used. Is that 5gm of chips?
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Wal
                                      > >
                                      > > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                      > >
                                      > > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                      > >
                                      > > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                      > >
                                      > > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                      > >
                                      > > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Pete H
                                      Not being aware of the experiments, I took the approach that the purer the alcohol, the better it is able to penetrate the oak and leach its desirable
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 2, 2010
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                                        Not being aware of the experiments, I took the approach that the purer the alcohol, the better it is able to penetrate the oak and leach its desirable properties.

                                        ------------------------------

                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                        > wal
                                        >
                                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty's are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips cut to fit through the neck. A Jack D bottle was ideal for this with its wide neck.
                                        > >
                                        > > When bottling a dark rum, (vodka & essence) I add 25 ml of the oaked 95% to 2.25 ltrs of the rum. I also have a vanilla quill sitting in 95% vodka. I add 5ml of this liquid to the rum.
                                        > >
                                        > > So far, I'm liking the taste.
                                        > >
                                        > > In this thread it has been mentioned that 5gm per ltr should be used. Is that 5gm of chips?
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hi Wal
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • *
                                        ... what about rums? there are plenty of high ABV rums mainly the 151 s are these oaked at lower abvs or at bottle strength?
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 2, 2010
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                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                          > wal
                                          >




                                          what about rums? there are plenty of high ABV rums mainly the 151's

                                          are these oaked at lower abvs or at bottle strength?
                                        • waljaco
                                          The penetration in a barrel is about 1mm. Note that commercial whisky/whiskey distilleries store/age at 60%abv. wal
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 3, 2010
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                                            The penetration in a barrel is about 1mm. Note that commercial whisky/whiskey distilleries store/age at 60%abv.
                                            wal

                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Not being aware of the experiments, I took the approach that the purer the alcohol, the better it is able to penetrate the oak and leach its desirable properties.
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                            > > wal
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty's are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips cut to fit through the neck. A Jack D bottle was ideal for this with its wide neck.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > When bottling a dark rum, (vodka & essence) I add 25 ml of the oaked 95% to 2.25 ltrs of the rum. I also have a vanilla quill sitting in 95% vodka. I add 5ml of this liquid to the rum.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > So far, I'm liking the taste.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In this thread it has been mentioned that 5gm per ltr should be used. Is that 5gm of chips?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ------------------------------
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@> wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hi Wal
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • waljaco
                                            Don t know. But rum can contain caramel which is quite dominant. wal
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 3, 2010
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                                              Don't know. But rum can contain caramel which is quite dominant.
                                              wal

                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "*" <goodneighbor69@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                              > > wal
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > what about rums? there are plenty of high ABV rums mainly the 151's
                                              >
                                              > are these oaked at lower abvs or at bottle strength?
                                              >
                                            • jamesonbeam1
                                              Good, Almost all rums are aged, mostly in used oak barrels. Depending on the country of origin, they are aged for a year or more. You need to specify which
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 4, 2010
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                                                Good,

                                                Almost all rums are aged, mostly in used oak barrels. Depending on the
                                                country of origin, they are aged for a year or more. You need to
                                                specify which 151 your talking about.

                                                JB.


                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "*" <goodneighbor69@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" waljaco@ wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and
                                                alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                                > > wal
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > what about rums? there are plenty of high ABV rums mainly the 151's
                                                >
                                                > are these oaked at lower abvs or at bottle strength?
                                                >
                                              • *
                                                ... for the sake of discussion ill say Black Seal Bermuda i know most rums are aged on oak. question is if you have a 151 proof rum what proof is it aged? we
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 4, 2010
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                                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Good,
                                                  >
                                                  > Almost all rums are aged, mostly in used oak barrels. Depending on the
                                                  > country of origin, they are aged for a year or more. You need to
                                                  > specify which 151 your talking about.
                                                  >
                                                  > JB.
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  for the sake of discussion ill say
                                                  Black Seal
                                                  Bermuda

                                                  i know most rums are aged on oak. question is if you have a 151 proof rum what proof is it aged? we know whisky is best aged at 130 proof
                                                  is it better to age rum at higher abv?
                                                • Harry
                                                  ... Define better . Different is the word I think. The balance is yours to explore... Most rum producers age their rum at 70% to 80% alcohol. A few dilute
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 4, 2010
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                                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "*" <goodneighbor69@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > for the sake of discussion ill say
                                                    > Black Seal
                                                    > Bermuda
                                                    >
                                                    > i know most rums are aged on oak. question is if you have a 151 proof rum what proof is it aged? we know whisky is best aged at 130 proof
                                                    > is it better to age rum at higher abv?
                                                    >


                                                    Define "better". Different is the word I think. The balance is yours to explore...

                                                    "Most rum producers age their rum at 70% to 80% alcohol. A few dilute their spirits to nearly bottle-strength, 40 to 45% alcohol by volume, before putting the barrels away for aging. A lower alcohol content during aging tends to leech slightly lighter esters and phenols from the wooden barrels while a higher alcohol content will attract heavier compounds and associated flavors."

                                                    Source: http://www.ministryofrum.com/article_age_matters.php


                                                    Slainte!
                                                    regards Harry
                                                  • Pete H
                                                    This pic of an oak stave from a wine barrel: http://tinyurl.com/38abjgg seems to indicate that wine (say 12% abv average) penetrates far deeper than spirits as
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Dec 5, 2010
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                                                      This pic of an oak stave from a wine barrel:

                                                      http://tinyurl.com/38abjgg

                                                      seems to indicate that wine (say 12% abv average) penetrates far deeper than spirits as quoted by wal. In fact 10 times deeper at 10mm.

                                                      Would not 95% or even 60% abv spirit be stronger than wine and thus penetrate deeper?

                                                      ------------------------------

                                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > The penetration in a barrel is about 1mm. Note that commercial whisky/whiskey distilleries store/age at 60%abv.
                                                      > wal
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Not being aware of the experiments, I took the approach that the purer the alcohol, the better it is able to penetrate the oak and leach its desirable properties.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ------------------------------
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                                      > > > wal
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty's are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips cut to fit through the neck. A Jack D bottle was ideal for this with its wide neck.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > When bottling a dark rum, (vodka & essence) I add 25 ml of the oaked 95% to 2.25 ltrs of the rum. I also have a vanilla quill sitting in 95% vodka. I add 5ml of this liquid to the rum.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > So far, I'm liking the taste.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > In this thread it has been mentioned that 5gm per ltr should be used. Is that 5gm of chips?
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > ------------------------------
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@> wrote:
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Hi Wal
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • waljaco
                                                      I have been corrected. A penetration of 6mm is not unusual. wal
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 5, 2010
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                                                        I have been corrected. A penetration of 6mm is not unusual.
                                                        wal

                                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > The penetration in a barrel is about 1mm. Note that commercial whisky/whiskey distilleries store/age at 60%abv.
                                                        > wal
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Not being aware of the experiments, I took the approach that the purer the alcohol, the better it is able to penetrate the oak and leach its desirable properties.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > ------------------------------
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                                        > > > wal
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty's are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips cut to fit through the neck. A Jack D bottle was ideal for this with its wide neck.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > When bottling a dark rum, (vodka & essence) I add 25 ml of the oaked 95% to 2.25 ltrs of the rum. I also have a vanilla quill sitting in 95% vodka. I add 5ml of this liquid to the rum.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > So far, I'm liking the taste.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > In this thread it has been mentioned that 5gm per ltr should be used. Is that 5gm of chips?
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > ------------------------------
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@> wrote:
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > Hi Wal
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      • Paul Williams
                                                        I like the boomerang keg closure in your other pics - neat idea
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Dec 5, 2010
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                                                          I like the "boomerang" keg closure in your other pics - neat idea


                                                          On 2010-12-05, at 7:56 AM, Pete H wrote:

                                                           



                                                          This pic of an oak stave from a wine barrel:

                                                          http://tinyurl.com/38abjgg

                                                          seems to indicate that wine (say 12% abv average) penetrates far deeper than spirits as quoted by wal. In fact 10 times deeper at 10mm.

                                                          Would not 95% or even 60% abv spirit be stronger than wine and thus penetrate deeper?

                                                          ------------------------------

                                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > The penetration in a barrel is about 1mm. Note that commercial whisky/whiskey distilleries store/age at 60%abv.
                                                          > wal
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Not being aware of the experiments, I took the approach that the purer the alcohol, the better it is able to penetrate the oak and leach its desirable properties.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > ------------------------------
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Experiments show that about 60%abv is best to extract water and alcohol soluble components in oak.
                                                          > > > wal
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Pete H" <thursty2@> wrote:
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > My hardly scientific approach - first time round, was to soak oak chips in 95%abv vodka. The qty's are approx. I half filled a 1.75 ltr bottle with oak chips cut to fit through the neck. A Jack D bottle was ideal for this with its wide neck.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > When bottling a dark rum, (vodka & essence) I add 25 ml of the oaked 95% to 2.25 ltrs of the rum. I also have a vanilla quill sitting in 95% vodka. I add 5ml of this liquid to the rum.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > So far, I'm liking the taste.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > In this thread it has been mentioned that 5gm per ltr should be used. Is that 5gm of chips?
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > ------------------------------
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "atticpc" <atticpc@> wrote:
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > Hi Wal
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > I will try that - much easier than going back to the start all over again.
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > Harry - just looked back on my notes. I was actually using nearly 10gms per litre - so way over oaked.
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > One of my plans at this stage is to fire up a new batch of UJSM and do a few stripping runs. Then on one spirit run add in some of the over oaked batch and then oak again.
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > The second approach is going to be to do the spirit run and cuts. Then do up a batch of 50% over oaked and 50% new and oak again on a very small quantity of oak. Will probably use pre used oak.
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > All a part of the fun of the craft.
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >


                                                        • Pete H
                                                          Thanks Paul, I wanted a simple to operate closure, and because the column is open to the air - ie., no pressure build up - this method works fine. I do have to
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Dec 5, 2010
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                                                            Thanks Paul,

                                                            I wanted a simple to operate closure, and because the column is open to the air - ie., no pressure build up - this method works fine.

                                                            I do have to investigate a better gasket material. The foam I have eventually collapses with the weight and heat, and then I have to cut a replacement.

                                                            A form of silicon sheet is probably my best bet, but finding it is proving difficult.

                                                            -------------------------

                                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Williams <paul.stewart.williams@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > I like the "boomerang" keg closure in your other pics - neat idea
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > On 2010-12-05, at 7:56 AM, Pete H wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > This pic of an oak stave from a wine barrel:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > http://tinyurl.com/38abjgg
                                                          • *
                                                            ... how about a silicone cooking sheet or silicone cake pan
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Dec 5, 2010
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                                                              > A form of silicon sheet is probably my best bet, but finding it is proving difficult.


                                                              how about a silicone cooking sheet or silicone cake pan
                                                            • Pete H
                                                              Hadn t thought of the cake pan. I need material about 3mm thick. Will check it out. Thanks *
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Dec 5, 2010
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                                                                Hadn't thought of the cake pan. I need material about 3mm thick. Will check it out.

                                                                Thanks *

                                                                -------------------------

                                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "*" <goodneighbor69@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > > A form of silicon sheet is probably my best bet, but finding it is proving difficult.
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > how about a silicone cooking sheet or silicone cake pan
                                                                >
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