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Re: Correlation

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  • tgfoitwoods
    Edbar, I really can t give you an answer with any precision, although I can wave my hands and make some assumptions, and pull a number out of my, er,
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 10, 2010
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      Edbar,

      I really can't give you an answer with any precision, although I can wave my hands and make some assumptions, and pull a number out of my, er, imagination. If and only if that solution were a pure sucrose-water solution, I'd use Jim's table and say you have very roughly 1 pound of sugar per gallon in your wash. When you say it smells "almost like caramel", that makes me thing there are lots of compounds from heat-degraded sugar in there, and my chemistry just isn't up to knowing how that will affect a specific gravity reading, let alone the ethanol that we know will give you a deceptively low apparent sugar reading, depending on ethanol concentration.

      Because this started out as a sugar wash, I'm going to make the shaky assumption that you don't have too much in the way of non-fermentable solids in your wash (unlike a grain wash, which can have lots of non-fermenting stuff), so as a very, very rough approximation I'll guess you have 1 pound of fermentable sugar per gallon in your wash.

      The one single way that anyone has of refining that number is what Jim said: take the SG and then finish the ferment. Subtract the Final Gravity from the Original Gravity, and that will tell you (as well as anything can) how much sugar fermented (using that great table Jim gave us), which may be close to how much fermentable sugar there was in your solution, God willing. This is the way the best brewers and winemakers do it, and it gets them pretty close.

      At this point, we're just asking, "How big is a horse?", so just finish the ferment (it probably is finished already), take a Final Gravity reading, and distill it. Let us know what you get.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > That's probably the reason then because this is not a sugar wash although it was originally. I previously wrote about my stuck fermentation which I distilled out and got all the ETOH, then put it back in the fermenter and started the fermentation again. I was kind of shocked to see the Brix at 32 but the SG was at 1.110 ( I added some sugar)so I guess since it seems to be stuck again, I'll distill it again and perhaps ferment it again without adding any sugar. The mash is brown and smells almost like caramel and was told by Harry that this is what they make rum from but I only want the neutral. So at 1.045, how much sugar should be left in this mash?
      >
      > BTW, I've used both the refractometer and the hydrometer on all my washes to monitor the progress and it seems pretty accurate, I usually get down to 8 brix with the SG of .992+
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Edbar,
      > >
      > > If I read you correctly, you used a hydrometer partway through a
      > > fermentation, and got a reading of 1.045. That specific gravity can be
      > > interpreted at least 2 ways.
      > >
      > > First, if you have a solution of only simple sugars and water, you can
      > > expect very roughly a 6% ABV ethanol water mixture, if fermentation
      > > works to completion. If you test that simple sugar-water solution with a
      > > refractometer, you should see a Brix/Balling value of about 11.5, based
      > > entirely on the fact that the solution is simple.
      > >
      > > The other interpretation of that 1.045 SG is that if you have a solution
      > > of sugar, water, yeast cells, nutrients, ethanol, and some intermediate
      > > fermentation products, 1.045 doesn't tell you jack. Because a
      > > refractometer's index of refraction reading is also changed by the
      > > mixture of ethanol, water, and other stuff in a partially complete
      > > fermentation, the refractometer reading is also so badly skewed as to be
      > > worthless.
      > >
      > > In the middle of a fermentation, which is where I'm guessing you are,
      > > all that 1.045 tells you (and this is just from brewing-winemaking
      > > experience) is that, depending on the amount of non-fermenting sugars in
      > > your wash, you are probably not finished with fermentation yet. Again
      > > from experience, wine fermentation is easier to guess the finish point
      > > than beer fermentation, but nothing is chiseled in stone.
      > >
      > > The known-solution-content argument continues to the alcoholometer. If
      > > you finish fermentation with a real ethanol ABV% of 14, and drop your
      > > alcoholometer into that solution, it sure as hell won't give you a
      > > reading of 14%ABV. In fact, the alcoholometer does not really test for
      > > amount of ethanol; it only knows the SG of pure ethanol-water mixtures
      > > at different concentrations. When it sees a particular SG, it remembers
      > > what the ethanol concentration was in a pure ethanol/water solution for
      > > that particular SG and tells you that %ABV. When your mixture is 27
      > > kinds of junk in water, that alcoholometer doesn't have a clue.
      > >
      > > Did you get your Brix reading by using a refractometer partway through
      > > the fermentation? If so, that reading is worthless, because all the
      > > other garbage in that partial fermentation just confuses the bejeesus
      > > out of a refractometer, which can only measure index of refraction, and
      > > tell you what the Brix would be if that solution were pure sugar-water.
      > > Since that's not what you have now, the reading means nothing.
      > >
      > > For a couple of simple rules, believe the hydrometer (well, sort of)
      > > until you pitch the yeast, and believe the alcoholometer only after
      > > distillation.
      > >
      > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I've got a batch fermenting and it's going real slow, just noticed
      > > something on a Brix chart that doesn't compute.
      > > >
      > > > My. SG is 1.045 but the brix is 22 which doesn't correlate or is
      > > something missing here.
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • landrover_ffr
      Hi, Assuming you are using a refractometer to measure the brix level the alcohol present in the partially fermented wash will throw your measurement out. But
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 10, 2010
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        Hi,
        Assuming you are using a refractometer to measure the brix level the alcohol present in the partially fermented wash will throw your measurement out. But never fear as you can adjust for it if you have the initial brix reading.

        Check out VinoCalc's "Monitor Ferment Progress with a Refractometer" which should do a reasonable correction for you.
        hxxp://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html#alcoholcalculation

        And you can find some code to do the same thing here;
        hxxp://www.primetab.com/formulas.html

        I now use a refractometer all the time now as these calculation make monitoring very simple.

        Hope this helps,
        Sid.


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > I've got a batch fermenting and it's going real slow, just noticed something on a Brix chart that doesn't compute.
        >
        > My. SG is 1.045 but the brix is 22 which doesn't correlate or is something missing here.
        >
      • jamesonbeam1
        Correct links are http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html for all kinds of calculations or
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 10, 2010
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          Correct links are http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html  for all kinds of calculations or  http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html#alcoholcalculation for the refactometer and hydrometer calcs and     http://www.primetab.com/formulas.html

          Great find Landrover.

          JB.


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "landrover_ffr" <sid.rains@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          > Assuming you are using a refractometer to measure the brix level the alcohol present in the partially fermented wash will throw your measurement out. But never fear as you can adjust for it if you have the initial brix reading.
          >
          > Check out VinoCalc's "Monitor Ferment Progress with a Refractometer" which should do a reasonable correction for you.
          > hxxp://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html#alcoholcalculation
          >
          > And you can find some code to do the same thing here;
          > hxxp://www.primetab.com/formulas.html
          >
          > I now use a refractometer all the time now as these calculation make monitoring very simple.
          >
          > Hope this helps,
          > Sid.
          >
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" edbar44@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I've got a batch fermenting and it's going real slow, just noticed something on a Brix chart that doesn't compute.
          > >
          > > My. SG is 1.045 but the brix is 22 which doesn't correlate or is something missing here.
          > >
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          Harry, You should add this link to your library which Landrover found. Has almost every calculation one needs for beer, wine and distilling without having to
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 10, 2010
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            Harry,

            You should add this link to your library which Landrover found.  Has almost every calculation one needs for beer, wine and distilling without having to go thru textbooks.

            http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html

            Totally free and downloadable too.  Going to put it in my Info base.

            JB.


            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Correct links are http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html
            > <http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html> for all kinds of calculations
            > or http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html#alcoholcalculation
            > <http://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html#alcoholcalculation> for the
            > refactometer and hydrometer calcs and
            > http://www.primetab.com/formulas.html
            > <http://www.primetab.com/formulas.html>
            >
            > Great find Landrover.
            >
            > JB.

          • landrover_ffr
            Thanks for fixing the links. I just assumed I couldn t post hot links here. I ll know for next time. I intend writing a phone application that has some of
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 10, 2010
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              Thanks for fixing the links. I just assumed I couldn't post hot links here. I'll know for next time.

              I intend writing a phone application that has some of these useful equations in it (brix and gravities to ABV, mixing etc.). Just have to finish my ballistics calculator first as you should never mix stilling and long range shooting ;)
            • tgfoitwoods
              Damn, Sid, Just scanning them quickly, those are some great links! Thanks a bunch for them. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ... here. I ll know for next time.
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 10, 2010
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                Damn, Sid,

                Just scanning them quickly, those are some great links! Thanks a bunch
                for them.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "landrover_ffr" <sid.rains@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for fixing the links. I just assumed I couldn't post hot links
                here. I'll know for next time.
                >
                > I intend writing a phone application that has some of these useful
                equations in it (brix and gravities to ABV, mixing etc.). Just have to
                finish my ballistics calculator first as you should never mix stilling
                and long range shooting ;)
                >
              • edbar44
                those are some great formulae, have a pint sitting in the fridge now, will filter and test again but feel it s done and full of stuff so will probably just
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 11, 2010
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                  those are some great formulae, have a pint sitting in the fridge now, will filter and test again but feel it's done and full of stuff so will probably just distill it and throw more yeast into the backset to see if it'll ferment again, no sugar this time.


                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "landrover_ffr" <sid.rains@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  > Assuming you are using a refractometer to measure the brix level the alcohol present in the partially fermented wash will throw your measurement out. But never fear as you can adjust for it if you have the initial brix reading.
                  >
                  > Check out VinoCalc's "Monitor Ferment Progress with a Refractometer" which should do a reasonable correction for you.
                  > hxxp://www.slymail.org/vinocalc.html#alcoholcalculation
                  >
                  > And you can find some code to do the same thing here;
                  > hxxp://www.primetab.com/formulas.html
                  >
                  > I now use a refractometer all the time now as these calculation make monitoring very simple.
                  >
                  > Hope this helps,
                  > Sid.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I've got a batch fermenting and it's going real slow, just noticed something on a Brix chart that doesn't compute.
                  > >
                  > > My. SG is 1.045 but the brix is 22 which doesn't correlate or is something missing here.
                  > >
                  >
                • edbar44
                  I filtered a small quantity of the wash and refrigerated it and let it sit for a week, readings were the same. At the same time, I stripped the wash that I had
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 21, 2010
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                    I filtered a small quantity of the wash and refrigerated it and let it sit for a week, readings were the same. At the same time, I stripped the wash that I had and reused the remaining, checking it for SG and Brix and the readings were the same. It has now been fermenting for 4 days and it has come down to 1.020 and 13 brix so apparently all the junk that's in the wash plays no significant role in these readings, the wash is still quite a dark brown since it has been stripped twice.

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > That's probably the reason then because this is not a sugar wash although it was originally. I previously wrote about my stuck fermentation which I distilled out and got all the ETOH, then put it back in the fermenter and started the fermentation again. I was kind of shocked to see the Brix at 32 but the SG was at 1.110 ( I added some sugar)so I guess since it seems to be stuck again, I'll distill it again and perhaps ferment it again without adding any sugar. The mash is brown and smells almost like caramel and was told by Harry that this is what they make rum from but I only want the neutral. So at 1.045, how much sugar should be left in this mash?
                    >
                    > BTW, I've used both the refractometer and the hydrometer on all my washes to monitor the progress and it seems pretty accurate, I usually get down to 8 brix with the SG of .992+
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Edbar,
                    > >
                    > > If I read you correctly, you used a hydrometer partway through a
                    > > fermentation, and got a reading of 1.045. That specific gravity can be
                    > > interpreted at least 2 ways.
                    > >
                    > > First, if you have a solution of only simple sugars and water, you can
                    > > expect very roughly a 6% ABV ethanol water mixture, if fermentation
                    > > works to completion. If you test that simple sugar-water solution with a
                    > > refractometer, you should see a Brix/Balling value of about 11.5, based
                    > > entirely on the fact that the solution is simple.
                    > >
                    > > The other interpretation of that 1.045 SG is that if you have a solution
                    > > of sugar, water, yeast cells, nutrients, ethanol, and some intermediate
                    > > fermentation products, 1.045 doesn't tell you jack. Because a
                    > > refractometer's index of refraction reading is also changed by the
                    > > mixture of ethanol, water, and other stuff in a partially complete
                    > > fermentation, the refractometer reading is also so badly skewed as to be
                    > > worthless.
                    > >
                    > > In the middle of a fermentation, which is where I'm guessing you are,
                    > > all that 1.045 tells you (and this is just from brewing-winemaking
                    > > experience) is that, depending on the amount of non-fermenting sugars in
                    > > your wash, you are probably not finished with fermentation yet. Again
                    > > from experience, wine fermentation is easier to guess the finish point
                    > > than beer fermentation, but nothing is chiseled in stone.
                    > >
                    > > The known-solution-content argument continues to the alcoholometer. If
                    > > you finish fermentation with a real ethanol ABV% of 14, and drop your
                    > > alcoholometer into that solution, it sure as hell won't give you a
                    > > reading of 14%ABV. In fact, the alcoholometer does not really test for
                    > > amount of ethanol; it only knows the SG of pure ethanol-water mixtures
                    > > at different concentrations. When it sees a particular SG, it remembers
                    > > what the ethanol concentration was in a pure ethanol/water solution for
                    > > that particular SG and tells you that %ABV. When your mixture is 27
                    > > kinds of junk in water, that alcoholometer doesn't have a clue.
                    > >
                    > > Did you get your Brix reading by using a refractometer partway through
                    > > the fermentation? If so, that reading is worthless, because all the
                    > > other garbage in that partial fermentation just confuses the bejeesus
                    > > out of a refractometer, which can only measure index of refraction, and
                    > > tell you what the Brix would be if that solution were pure sugar-water.
                    > > Since that's not what you have now, the reading means nothing.
                    > >
                    > > For a couple of simple rules, believe the hydrometer (well, sort of)
                    > > until you pitch the yeast, and believe the alcoholometer only after
                    > > distillation.
                    > >
                    > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I've got a batch fermenting and it's going real slow, just noticed
                    > > something on a Brix chart that doesn't compute.
                    > > >
                    > > > My. SG is 1.045 but the brix is 22 which doesn't correlate or is
                    > > something missing here.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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