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What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?

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  • matthew
    An interviewer last week asked me What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one s own spirits is made illegal? First, I responded, in a free society, we
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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      An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"

      First, I responded, in a free society, we don't need a compelling reason to make something legal. We need a compelling reason to make it illegal.

      Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.

      But that's just my own thoughts off the top of my head. Let me throw that out to you: What DO we lose when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?
    • Harry
      ... In a word...Freedom. The freedom to explore, to be innovative, to broaden one s mind, to tittilate the senses. Personal distilling is a recreational
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:
        >
        > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
        >
        > First, I responded, in a free society, we don't need a compelling reason to make something legal. We need a compelling reason to make it illegal.
        >
        > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.
        >
        > But that's just my own thoughts off the top of my head. Let me throw that out to you: What DO we lose when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?
        >


        In a word...Freedom. The freedom to explore, to be innovative, to broaden one's mind, to tittilate the senses. Personal distilling is a recreational activity. It is an avenue of release from the drudgeries of life. It brings out the creative flair in us, just as writing, or poetry, or fishing, golf, collecting stamps does. It is all this and much more. It is mankind expressing his ability to create.


        Slainte!
        regards Harry
      • geoff
        Hear, Hear Harry, I m in total agreement with you. Freedom is setting your own doing the right thing boundaries and you and them respecting other peoples
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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          Hear, Hear Harry,
               I'm in total agreement with you.  Freedom is setting your own "doing the right thing boundaries" and you and them respecting other peoples boundaries.  In other words I'll not sh*t in your front lawn if you don't sh*t in mine. 
               A don't come expecting a vat tax from me (to me it's a form of blackmail money) taxing from my creative hard work and  product improvement, the illegitimate sons of the ladies of the night.(Sorry I do them an injustice they at least provide a serve)
          Sorry gang I have this thing about people (governments) in absolute power, because absolute power corrupts with a smile but they do it under the umbrella of total legality
          Right i'm off the soapbox now rant over
          Geoff
        • jamesonbeam1
          Hello Matt, Very interesting question - What DO We lose when distilling one s own spirits is made illegal? Me thinks it not We - its the Government s
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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            Hello Matt,

            Very interesting question - "What DO We lose when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal? "   Me thinks it not "We" - its the Government's Taxes if made legal........

            Your second response to this question tells some of the truths.  Not to mention "loss of knowledge about the world of our ancestors. "

            If I may ramble somewhat, let me bring up a few subjects that may help you out writing whatever you may:

            -Taxation Without Representation.

            -The Right to make Wine.

            -The Right to make Beer.

            -George Washington's Distillery.

            -The Whiskey Revolution.

            -The 18th admendment to the Constitution.

            -The 21st admendment to the Constitution.

            -The Bill of Rights.

            Now to put these subjects in perspective, The Boston Tea Party "was an act of retalliation by Boston residents on Dec. 16th, 1773 to protest taxes.  The Tea Party was the culmination of a resistance movement throughout British America against the Tea Act, which had been passed by the British Parliament in 1773. Colonists objected to the Tea Act for a variety of reasons, especially because they believed that it violated their right to be taxed only by their own elected representatives. "   The first and formost compelling reason to make distilling one's own liquor illegal  is of course, Taxes..   I will follow this thru with the other topics. 

            Now regarding wine making and beer making, thanks to President Carter we can privately make our own beer and wine.  Wine making was approved by Preident Carter in 1975 to allow a person to make 100 gallons of wine themselves or 200 gallons of wine per household.  Beer making, as you mentioned in your article was passed in congress in 1978, which Carter signed in Feburary, 1979.  Again, why didn't he allow home distillation?  Because of the more ethanol produced, the more taxes are lost.

            Your second response tells alot of truth..  Now as far as the first illegal moonshiner in this country, President Washington ranks right up there.  While I cannot claim to be a relative of Washington (even though my family is related to the Roosevelts), his distillery in Mount Vernon was a nice one made in 1797 and he be came one of the biggest moonshiners  -

            "Washington erected a 2,250 square foot distillery in 1797, making it among the largest whiskey distilleries in early America. In 1799, the former president produced 11,000 gallons of whiskey worth $7,500, making him one of the most successful distillers. $7,500 was a very large sum of money in 1799."  I wonder how many taxes he payed???  Another thing we lost - cant even do what our first President did..

            The next major event that doomed us private distillers was of course the Whiskey Rebellion in 1794 when a bunch of Pensylvannia distillers refused to pay the taxes imposed by the Governement.  "The Washington administration responded by sending peace commissioners to western Pennsylvania to negotiate with the rebels, while at the same time raising a militia force to suppress the violence. The insurrection collapsed before the arrival of the army; about 20 people were arrested, but all were later acquitted or pardoned.   The whiskey tax was repealed after Thomas Jefferson's "Democratic-Republican" Party, which opposed Hamilton's Federalist Party, came to power in 1800."  Interesting huh?

            Then of course came the famous prohibition caused by a lot of arrogant mothers which caused the passing of the 18th Amendment of the Constitution ratified on Jan. 16th, 1919  that :          "After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited. "

            This of course was repealed by the 21st Admendment to the Constitution on Dec. 5th,1933 thanks to  "As more and more Americans opposed the Eighteenth Amendment, movement grew for repeal. However, repeal was complicated by grassroots politics."  Another important issue in this amendment was:   "The Twenty-first Amendment is also one of only two operative provisions of the Constitution that prohibit private conduct; the other is the Thirteenth Amendment. As Laurence Tribe points out: "there are two ways, and only two ways, in which an ordinary private citizen ... can violate the United States Constitution. One is to enslave someone, a suitably hellish act. The other is to bring a bottle of beer, wine, or bourbon into a State in violation of its beverage control laws—an act that might have been thought juvenile, and perhaps even lawless, but unconstitutional?" So now of course its the states that control alchol right?

            Anyways that brings me to the bottom line of this conversation - The Bill of Rights... Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it say we Americans cannot distill our own liquors....  It does say that:

            Amendment IV
             The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

            While we can own stills here in this country, it really depends on what we put through them that determines if we are eligable for "unreasonable searches and seizures".  We can distill water, herbs, spices and water.  So whats to say if that water has a bit of alcohol in it???

            Also if one happens to leave some apple cider that has fermented in the cold and it freezes and they strain it out, leaving ice - is that illegal?  (lol yes it is - called freeze crystalization).

            Personally, as long as we DO NOT SELL and only use what we distill for our own consumption, just like wine and beer, I do not see Any Reason why home distilling should be illegal.  Also as long as there are groups like ours around to teach people about any dangers of distilling a potentially fire hazardous material and teach safety, then what else is the difference between what we do and beer and wine makers do??????

            Sorry if I bored you Matt.

            JB.

            User avatar

             

             

             

             

             


            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:
            >
            > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
            >
            > First, I responded, in a free society, we don't need a compelling reason to make something legal. We need a compelling reason to make it illegal.
            >
            > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.
            >
            > But that's just my own thoughts off the top of my head. Let me throw that out to you: What DO we lose when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?
            >

          • tgfoitwoods
            Hey Matt, You ask a great question, and Harry, Geoff, and Waldo all had great answers, but I d like to add one to the list. When distilling one s own spirits
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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              Hey Matt,

              You ask a great question, and Harry, Geoff, and Waldo all had great
              answers, but I'd like to add one to the list. When distilling one's own
              spirits is made illegal, we start losing diversity, and it bleeds from
              us in great arterial gouts, continuing until we're all drinking the same
              standardized swill.

              If we need a confirmatory example of this kind of diversity loss, look
              at the American brewing industry. While homebrewing was illegal, our
              selection of available beers slid from the great British ales, Czech
              Pilseners, andthe German styles our ancestors brought with them, all
              the way to generic camel-spit, Schludwiller (for those of you old
              Oregonians who remember the Henry Weinhardt commercials). No sooner was
              homebrewing made legal than inventive homebrewers re-invented every beer
              ever known to man and many never before seen.

              Enterprising microbrewers (most of them originally homebrewers) jumped
              on the bandwagon, and today in my tiny local grocery, I can find
              multiple IPA's, porters, stouts, Pilseners, ambers, Belgian wits,
              hefeweizens, and the occasional Maibock, an embarrassment of riches.

              Supporting this beer example, relaxed distilling laws in Washington and
              Oregon have created an explosion of wee commercial distillers producing
              a bewildering array of fine spirits, and I have no doubt that completely
              legalizing home distillation will magnify that effect a hundredfold.

              Thanks for asking, Matt.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when
              distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
              >
              > First, I responded, in a free society, we don't need a compelling
              reason to make something legal. We need a compelling reason to make it
              illegal.
              >
              > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our
              cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our
              world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we
              lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to
              make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins
              our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and
              identity as a people.
              >
              > But that's just my own thoughts off the top of my head. Let me throw
              that out to you: What DO we lose when distilling one's own spirits is
              made illegal?
              >
            • thursty2
              Matthew, I view this with the perspective that the game is already lost. Distilling is already illegal in Oz. The thin edge of the wedge has been driven in.
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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                Matthew,

                I view this with the perspective that the game is already lost. Distilling is already illegal in Oz. The thin edge of the wedge has been driven in. Next, if commercial interests get heavy, we will no longer be allowed to make our own bread, grow our own vegies, make cheese, sausages etc. I know this sounds extreme, but a politician wanting to make a name for himself, can be a formidable foe.

                Last week some sympathy was shown by posters to Distillers for a person caught selling spirits in NZ. Legal home distilling is a precious privilege which I believe won't tolerate too much outlaw activity.

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:
                >
                > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
                >
                > First, I responded, in a free society, we don't need a compelling reason to make something legal. We need a compelling reason to make it illegal.
                >
                > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.
                >
                > But that's just my own thoughts off the top of my head. Let me throw that out to you: What DO we lose when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?
                >
              • Ken
                This Guy I absolutely have no sympathy for as not only 500 litres of grog also dope and P and was caught within days of the old Fella .And the police are
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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                  This Guy I absolutely have no sympathy for as not only 500 litres of grog also dope and “P” and was caught within days of the “old Fella” .And  the police are actively pursuing those making illegal sales and  are wanting information to stop these illegal sales; so the article suggests . I can only repeat even here in New Zealand where it is legal Do Not Sell Ever as the word will get around and you could easily get dobbed in by a friend of a friend?

                  http://tinyurl.com/2asc2jp

                   

                  Ken Mc

                  Moderator :  Y! new_distillers    Y! Distillers

                  Forums Info:  FAQ    Policy    Settings

                   


                  From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of thursty2
                  Sent: Tuesday, 13 July 2010 12:47 p.m.
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?

                   

                   

                  Matthew,

                  I view this with the perspective that the game is already lost. Distilling is already illegal in Oz. The thin edge of the wedge has been driven in. Next, if commercial interests get heavy, we will no longer be allowed to make our own bread, grow our own vegies, make cheese, sausages etc. I know this sounds extreme, but a politician wanting to make a name for himself, can be a formidable foe.

                  Last week some sympathy was shown by posters to Distillers for a person caught selling spirits in NZ. Legal home distilling is a precious privilege which I believe won't tolerate too much outlaw activity.

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society,
                  when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
                  >
                  > First, I responded, in a free society, we don't need a compelling reason
                  to make something legal. We need a compelling reason to make it illegal.
                  >
                  > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our
                  cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.
                  >
                  > But that's just my own thoughts off the top of my head. Let me throw that
                  out to you: What DO we lose when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?
                  >

                • waljaco
                  Private distillation was free of excise in England until 1781 - the state coffers needed money. It is one thing to make something illegal and another thing to
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 12, 2010
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                    Private distillation was free of excise in England until 1781 - the state coffers needed money. It is one thing to make something illegal and another thing to enforce it. By swamping the country with small legal home stills the activity has become impossible to regulate. But then the purpose of the original law was to collect revenue, and if this is still an issue then just regulate the sales aspect only. But then selective moralists in our society complicate things!
                    wal

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
                    >
                    > First, I responded, in a free society, we don't need a compelling reason to make something legal. We need a compelling reason to make it illegal.
                    >
                    > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.
                    >
                    > But that's just my own thoughts off the top of my head. Let me throw that out to you: What DO we lose when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?
                    >
                  • slipthruthecracks
                    Matt, The question your interviewer posed nearly answers itself in that it recognizes in its query that when personal liberty is curtailed, a loss is incurred.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 13, 2010
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                      Matt,

                      The question your interviewer posed nearly answers itself in that it recognizes in its query that when personal liberty is curtailed, a loss is incurred.

                      His question might be rephrased to ask what is the cost to society when personal liberty is reduced. My quantitative answer to that question is, "The cost is enormous". My qualitative answer is that when personal liberty is curtailed, the societal sense of needing someone other than ourselves to tell us what to do grows and personal responsibility withers. This dangerous trend has grown and manifests itself in the litigious nature of our society, the inane disclaimers and warnings on everything we purchase, and the recent growth of government based on the idea that only they can know best and provide best for everything we need from cradle to grave.

                      "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?" More than we can imagine.

                      OneEyedJack


                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
                      >
                    • whackfol
                      While tax may be an underlying reason for the restrictions against home distilling, it could easily be solved with the imposition of a tax. I suspect the loss
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 13, 2010
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                        While tax may be an underlying reason for the restrictions against home distilling, it could easily be solved with the imposition of a tax. I suspect the loss of the right has more to do with activist groups (witness the temperance movement) wanting to take away anothers rights (mine) for the "public good." I'm no fan of collectivism and ask who is the public and who gave them the right to take my right. We all must take personal responsibility for our actions and protect ourselves from those who, under their self created religion of moral right and indignation, want to take away our rights and freedom. I am constantly reminded of the German who, describing Germany during Hitlers time, said they (the government) came for other groups, I did not speak out for I was not one of them. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

                        Lincoln said: Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.
                      • bruce cook
                        Well put. I only wish that we could find some leaders that not only believed in what you ve stated, but would also practice it. To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 13, 2010
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                          Well put.  I only wish that we could find some leaders that not only believed in what you've stated, but would also practice it.


                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          From: slipthruthecracks@...
                          Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:32:41 +0000
                          Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?

                           
                          Matt,

                          The question your interviewer posed nearly answers itself in that it recognizes in its query that when personal liberty is curtailed, a loss is incurred.

                          His question might be rephrased to ask what is the cost to society when personal liberty is reduced. My quantitative answer to that question is, "The cost is enormous". My qualitative answer is that when personal liberty is curtailed, the societal sense of needing someone other than ourselves to tell us what to do grows and personal responsibility withers. This dangerous trend has grown and manifests itself in the litigious nature of our society, the inane disclaimers and warnings on everything we purchase, and the recent growth of government based on the idea that only they can know best and provide best for everything we need from cradle to grave.

                          "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?" More than we can imagine.

                          OneEyedJack

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
                          >




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                        • Rufus
                          I have always enjoyed the free flow of information and views shared amoungst the members of this group. After reading the fine responses to Matt s question I
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 13, 2010
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                            I have always enjoyed the free flow of information and views shared amoungst the members of this group. After reading the fine responses to Matt's question I must say I'm am now also proud to be associated with so many of you who value liberty. We live in a era that promotes equality over liberty via a larger and ever more intrusive government. It's nice to know that not all of us are convinced of this argument. Here's to liberty.

                            Rufus

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "slipthruthecracks" <slipthruthecracks@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Matt,
                            >
                            > The question your interviewer posed nearly answers itself in that it recognizes in its query that when personal liberty is curtailed, a loss is incurred.
                            >
                            > His question might be rephrased to ask what is the cost to society when personal liberty is reduced. My quantitative answer to that question is, "The cost is enormous". My qualitative answer is that when personal liberty is curtailed, the societal sense of needing someone other than ourselves to tell us what to do grows and personal responsibility withers. This dangerous trend has grown and manifests itself in the litigious nature of our society, the inane disclaimers and warnings on everything we purchase, and the recent growth of government based on the idea that only they can know best and provide best for everything we need from cradle to grave.
                            >
                            > "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?" More than we can imagine.
                            >
                            > OneEyedJack
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > An interviewer last week asked me "What do we lose, as a society, when distilling one's own spirits is made illegal?"
                            > >
                            >
                          • waljaco
                            Distilling is not forbidden. The U.S. also needed money in its infancy. License and excise are involved. But these are too heavy and restrictive for the home
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 14, 2010
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                              Distilling is not forbidden. The U.S. also needed money in its infancy. License and excise are involved. But these are too heavy and restrictive for the home distiller. Why? It is more convenient for the government to collect revenue from a smaller number of big producers than lots of small producers. So bureaucratic obstacles are put in place. This is also the pattern in Ireland, Scotland, South Africa and Australia.
                              wal

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "whackfol" <whackfol@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > While tax may be an underlying reason for the restrictions against home distilling, it could easily be solved with the imposition of a tax. I suspect the loss of the right has more to do with activist groups (witness the temperance movement) wanting to take away anothers rights (mine) for the "public good." I'm no fan of collectivism and ask who is the public and who gave them the right to take my right. We all must take personal responsibility for our actions and protect ourselves from those who, under their self created religion of moral right and indignation, want to take away our rights and freedom. I am constantly reminded of the German who, describing Germany during Hitlers time, said they (the government) came for other groups, I did not speak out for I was not one of them. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
                              >
                              > Lincoln said: Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.
                              >
                            • lowerarchy
                              ... Hi everyone. Long time lurker, third time poster. This is a bit of a sidetrack, but why is everyone so against selling your homemade booze? You d think the
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 6, 2010
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                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" <moonshinearchives@...> wrote:

                                > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.

                                Hi everyone. Long time lurker, third time poster.


                                This is a bit of a sidetrack, but why is everyone so against selling your homemade booze? You'd think the complex and unstoppable market that has emerged for marijuana since prohibition, and it's associated community of breeders, growers, and connoisseurs would be a model to follow. Just look at how it exploded over the last thirty years in opposition to distinctly more unfavourable legal and social conditions than we're subject to.
                              • Henk
                                As much as I hate the law about illegality of distillation, I will never compair distillation with marijuana!!You re talking about a drug, illegal in almost
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                  As much as I hate the law about illegality of distillation, I will never compair distillation with marijuana!!
                                  You're talking about a drug, illegal in almost the whole world (yes also in the Netherlands). Still the trade of marijuana is in the hands of big criminals.

                                  I hope our small home distillation will be a craft, in which we restore the old know-how end the old recipe's, and that we'll never become the same as the drug-world. Selling is not in our advantage. Keep it to your own, your family and your friends just like our ancestors did!

                                  Henk
                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lowerarchy" <abe.sorge@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" moonshinearchives@ wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and identity as a people.
                                  >
                                  > Hi everyone. Long time lurker, third time poster.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This is a bit of a sidetrack, but why is everyone so against selling your homemade booze? You'd think the complex and unstoppable market that has emerged for marijuana since prohibition, and it's associated community of breeders, growers, and connoisseurs would be a model to follow. Just look at how it exploded over the last thirty years in opposition to distinctly more unfavourable legal and social conditions than we're subject to.
                                  >
                                • tgfoitwoods
                                  Lowerarchy, I think I speak for many of us when I say my biggest reason for not selling my work is an aversion to being confined and possibly married to the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                    Lowerarchy,

                                    I think I speak for many of us when I say my biggest reason for not
                                    selling my work is an aversion to being confined and possibly married to
                                    the guy with the most cigarettes. While I do not see marijuana as
                                    intrinsically evil, and in many ways comparable to ethanol for drinking,
                                    it's a fact that, at least here in the US, some large fraction of the
                                    prison population is there for marijuana trafficking.

                                    With that in mind, and assuming other distillers enjoy their freedom as
                                    much as I do, I also recommend not selling your wares. Stick with giving
                                    it to friends and family.

                                    Zymurgy Bob, a simplepotstiller

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lowerarchy" <abe.sorge@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" moonshinearchives@ wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our
                                    cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our
                                    world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we
                                    lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to
                                    make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins
                                    our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and
                                    identity as a people.
                                    >
                                    > Hi everyone. Long time lurker, third time poster.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > This is a bit of a sidetrack, but why is everyone so against selling
                                    your homemade booze? You'd think the complex and unstoppable market that
                                    has emerged for marijuana since prohibition, and it's associated
                                    community of breeders, growers, and connoisseurs would be a model to
                                    follow. Just look at how it exploded over the last thirty years in
                                    opposition to distinctly more unfavourable legal and social conditions
                                    than we're subject to.
                                    >
                                  • joe giffen
                                    Hi Bob, I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence and start a
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                      Hi Bob,
                                      I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.

                                      Regards
                                      Joe

                                      --- On Tue, 7/9/10, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                                      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?
                                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010, 16:02

                                       
                                      Lowerarchy,

                                      I think I speak for many of us when I say my biggest reason for not
                                      selling my work is an aversion to being confined and possibly married to
                                      the guy with the most cigarettes. While I do not see marijuana as
                                      intrinsically evil, and in many ways comparable to ethanol for drinking,
                                      it's a fact that, at least here in the US, some large fraction of the
                                      prison population is there for marijuana trafficking.

                                      With that in mind, and assuming other distillers enjoy their freedom as
                                      much as I do, I also recommend not selling your wares. Stick with giving
                                      it to friends and family.

                                      Zymurgy Bob, a simplepotstiller

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lowerarchy" <abe.sorge@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" moonshinearchives@ wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our
                                      cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our
                                      world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we
                                      lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to
                                      make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins
                                      our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and
                                      identity as a people.
                                      >
                                      > Hi everyone. Long time lurker, third time poster.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This is a bit of a sidetrack, but why is everyone so against selling
                                      your homemade booze? You'd think the complex and unstoppable market that
                                      has emerged for marijuana since prohibition, and it's associated
                                      community of breeders, growers, and connoisseurs would be a model to
                                      follow. Just look at how it exploded over the last thirty years in
                                      opposition to distinctly more unfavourable legal and social conditions
                                      than we're subject to.
                                      >


                                    • Derek Hamlet
                                      ... I ll go one stronger. If Joe s advice makes no sense to you as a strategy to meet whatever your goals are in distilling, then please leave this list NOW.
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                        At 12:02 PM 9/7/2010, you wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Hi Bob,
                                        >I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will
                                        >ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence
                                        >and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some
                                        >dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so
                                        >that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with
                                        >our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.

                                        I'll go one stronger. If Joe's advice makes no sense to you as a
                                        strategy to meet whatever your goals are in distilling, then please
                                        leave this list NOW. I only want to associate with those who are
                                        pursuing a hobby.



                                        Derek
                                      • Rufus
                                        Derek, I m not sure I follow your logic. Am I correct in assuming that anyone who aspires to create a legal boutique distillery should not be part of this
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                          Derek, I'm not sure I follow your logic. Am I correct in assuming that anyone who aspires to create a legal boutique distillery should not be part of this group? What harm is there in dreaming of running your own legal boutique distillery while at the same time participating in this group?

                                          Regards,
                                          R
                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > At 12:02 PM 9/7/2010, you wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >Hi Bob,
                                          > >I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will
                                          > >ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence
                                          > >and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some
                                          > >dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so
                                          > >that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with
                                          > >our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.
                                          >
                                          > I'll go one stronger. If Joe's advice makes no sense to you as a
                                          > strategy to meet whatever your goals are in distilling, then please
                                          > leave this list NOW. I only want to associate with those who are
                                          > pursuing a hobby.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Derek
                                          >
                                        • Rufus
                                          Derek, I m not sure I follow your logic. Am I correct in assuming that anyone who aspires to create a legal boutique distillery should not be part of this
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                            Derek, I'm not sure I follow your logic. Am I correct in assuming that anyone who aspires to create a legal boutique distillery should not be part of this group? What harm is there in dreaming of running your own legal boutique distillery while at the same time participating in this group?

                                            Regards,
                                            R
                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > At 12:02 PM 9/7/2010, you wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >Hi Bob,
                                            > >I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will
                                            > >ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence
                                            > >and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some
                                            > >dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so
                                            > >that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with
                                            > >our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.
                                            >
                                            > I'll go one stronger. If Joe's advice makes no sense to you as a
                                            > strategy to meet whatever your goals are in distilling, then please
                                            > leave this list NOW. I only want to associate with those who are
                                            > pursuing a hobby.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Derek
                                            >
                                          • Derek Hamlet
                                            ... No, I meant that anybody who bootlegs their hobby spirits and gets caught does us all a disservice and draws unwanted attention. I share my hooch
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                              At 02:49 PM 9/7/2010, you wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >Derek, I'm not sure I follow your logic. Am I correct in assuming
                                              >that anyone who aspires to create a legal boutique distillery should
                                              >not be part of this group? What harm is there in dreaming of running
                                              >your own legal boutique distillery while at the same time
                                              >participating in this group?

                                              No, I meant that anybody who bootlegs their hobby spirits and gets
                                              caught does us all a disservice and draws unwanted attention. I
                                              share my hooch discretely at motorcycle rallies with folks I know
                                              well and with friends.


                                              Derek
                                            • Geoff Stewart
                                              ... Hi, Joe and folks, I would have expected SOMEONE to comment on your double entendre! Perhaps everyone else is either too well mannered to comment, or so
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
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                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Bob,
                                                > I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.
                                                >
                                                > Regards
                                                > Joe
                                                >
                                                >
                                                Hi, Joe and folks,
                                                I would have expected SOMEONE to comment on your double entendre!

                                                Perhaps everyone else is either too well mannered to comment, or so well educated they understood your meaning without a second thought.

                                                Regards,

                                                The Baker
                                              • joe giffen
                                                Which do you belong to?. Regards Joe ... From: Geoff Stewart Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling s forbidden?
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
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                                                  Which do you belong to?.

                                                  Regards
                                                  Joe

                                                  --- On Tue, 14/9/10, Geoff Stewart <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:

                                                  From: Geoff Stewart <gff_stwrt@...>
                                                  Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?
                                                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Tuesday, 14 September, 2010, 8:10

                                                   


                                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Bob,
                                                  > I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.
                                                  >
                                                  > Regards
                                                  > Joe
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  Hi, Joe and folks,
                                                  I would have expected SOMEONE to comment on your double entendre!

                                                  Perhaps everyone else is either too well mannered to comment, or so well educated they understood your meaning without a second thought.

                                                  Regards,

                                                  The Baker


                                                • Geoff Stewart
                                                  (Sigh...) modesty forbids....
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
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                                                    (Sigh...) modesty forbids....

                                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Which do you belong to?.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards
                                                    > Joe
                                                    >
                                                    > --- On Tue, 14/9/10, Geoff Stewart <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > From: Geoff Stewart <gff_stwrt@...>
                                                    > Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?
                                                    > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Date: Tuesday, 14 September, 2010, 8:10
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >  
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hi Bob,
                                                    > > I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Regards
                                                    > > Joe
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > Hi, Joe and folks,
                                                    > I would have expected SOMEONE to comment on your double entendre!
                                                    >
                                                    > Perhaps everyone else is either too well mannered to comment, or so well educated they understood your meaning without a second thought.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards,
                                                    >
                                                    > The Baker
                                                    >
                                                  • tgfoitwoods
                                                    Hi, Joe, I dunno about Geoff, but I m in the too dumb to see that double on-tondree thang, even after I looked real hard. Living in shame, Zymurgy Bob, a
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
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                                                      Hi, Joe,

                                                      I dunno about Geoff, but I'm in the "too dumb to see that double
                                                      on-tondree thang, even after I looked real hard.

                                                      Living in shame,
                                                      Zymurgy Bob, a simplepotstiller

                                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Which do you belong to?.
                                                      >
                                                      > Regards
                                                      > Joe
                                                      >
                                                      > --- On Tue, 14/9/10, Geoff Stewart gff_stwrt@... wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > From: Geoff Stewart gff_stwrt@...
                                                      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?
                                                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Date: Tuesday, 14 September, 2010, 8:10
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Â
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen joegiffen@ wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hi Bob,
                                                      > > I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will
                                                      ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence and
                                                      start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some dangerours crap
                                                      we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so that we may practise
                                                      our craft and be able to have intercourse with our fellow hobbyists is
                                                      worthwhile.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Regards
                                                      > > Joe
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > Hi, Joe and folks,
                                                      > I would have expected SOMEONE to comment on your double entendre!
                                                      >
                                                      > Perhaps everyone else is either too well mannered to comment, or so
                                                      well educated they understood your meaning without a second thought.
                                                      >
                                                      > Regards,
                                                      >
                                                      > The Baker
                                                      >
                                                    • geoff burrows
                                                      I know Joe doesn t need any help out here. But here is the defination of intercourse as used in the context Joe was intending it to be used . Say what you
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
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                                                        I know Joe doesn't need any help out here.  But here is the defination of  "intercourse" as used in the context Joe was intending it to be used .  Say what you like about the Christian Brothers  they taught english and everyone understood the language and the use of the language perfectly so double meaning or not if you used a word in the correct context there could only be one meaning
                                                        Geoff  
                                                         
                                                        Definitions of 'intercourse'
                                                        Webster Dictionary 

                                                        1. (noun) intercourse
                                                        a commingling; intimate connection or dealings between persons or nations, as in common affairs and civilities, in correspondence or trade; communication; commerce; especially, interchange of thought and feeling; association; communion

                                                      • jamesonbeam1
                                                        Sigh, Must be a full Moon out there. Geoff, your not talking about sheep again are ya? JB. ... of intercourse as used in the context Joe was intending it to
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Sigh,

                                                          Must be a full Moon out there. Geoff, your not talking about sheep
                                                          again are ya?

                                                          JB.


                                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "geoff burrows" <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                                                          wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > I know Joe doesn't need any help out here. But here is the defination
                                                          of "intercourse" as used in the context Joe was intending it to be used
                                                          . Say what you like about the Christian Brothers they taught english and
                                                          everyone understood the language and the use of the language perfectly
                                                          so double meaning or not if you used a word in the correct context there
                                                          could only be one meaning
                                                          > Geoff
                                                          >
                                                          > Definitions of 'intercourse' Webster Dictionary
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 1. (noun) intercourse
                                                          > a commingling; intimate connection or dealings between persons or
                                                          nations, as in common affairs and civilities, in correspondence or
                                                          trade; communication; commerce; especially, interchange of thought and
                                                          feeling; association; communion
                                                          >
                                                        • geoff burrows
                                                          Hi Nahh-!-! Jim too much red stuff. As my name sake Geoff says, at the time of posting, I would have been at the 2nd of the ose stages. That would be the
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
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                                                            Hi
                                                                 Nahh-!-! Jim too much red stuff.  As my name sake Geoff says, at the time of posting, I would have been at the 2nd of the "ose" stages.  That would be the "Verbose" stage.  Just 3 steps away and fast approaching from the "Comatose" stage. 
                                                            Geoff
                                                          • lowerarchy
                                                            Thanks for those responses. Just for the record, I don t sell booze. I don t want to run afoul of the Canadian Excise Tax Act, that s for sure. Anyways - don t
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 14, 2010
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Thanks for those responses. Just for the record, I don't sell booze. I don't want to run afoul of the Canadian Excise Tax Act, that's for sure.

                                                              Anyways - don't worry about me, I can't ruin your hobby. Don't worry about people who sell moonshine either. Seems kind of pointless to fret about what other distillers do when we're all operating underground anyway. Nobody involved in this practice can make this any more illegal, at least not on short notice.

                                                              On another note, you know what else we lose when distilling's illegal? Coopers and coppersmiths. We'd all have a rack of hogsheads in the basement if they were eighty bucks a pop and we'd all be thinking about a boughtn' potstill if they didn't start at 10,000 euros.





                                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Hi Bob,
                                                              > I agree totally.This is a HOBBY, to turn it into anything else will ruin it. If you want to sell alcohol that you make, get a licence and start a boutique distillery. If some beginner sells some dangerours crap we will all get the blame. Keeping a low profile so that we may practise our craft and be able to have intercourse with our fellow hobbyists is worthwhile.
                                                              >
                                                              > Regards
                                                              > Joe
                                                              >
                                                              > --- On Tue, 7/9/10, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                                              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: What do we lose when distilling's forbidden?
                                                              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > Date: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010, 16:02
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >  
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Lowerarchy,
                                                              >
                                                              > I think I speak for many of us when I say my biggest reason for not
                                                              > selling my work is an aversion to being confined and possibly married to
                                                              > the guy with the most cigarettes. While I do not see marijuana as
                                                              > intrinsically evil, and in many ways comparable to ethanol for drinking,
                                                              > it's a fact that, at least here in the US, some large fraction of the
                                                              > prison population is there for marijuana trafficking.
                                                              >
                                                              > With that in mind, and assuming other distillers enjoy their freedom as
                                                              > much as I do, I also recommend not selling your wares. Stick with giving
                                                              > it to friends and family.
                                                              >
                                                              > Zymurgy Bob, a simplepotstiller
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lowerarchy" <abe.sorge@> wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "matthew" moonshinearchives@ wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > > Second, I talked a bit about our general loss of knowledge and our
                                                              > cultural patrimony. We're supposed to know more, not less, about our
                                                              > world than our ancestors. When home distilling became illegal, we
                                                              > lessened our grips on our own heritages. When we no longer know how to
                                                              > make the peach brandies, the slivovitz, the rye, corn, and country gins
                                                              > our ancestors did, we understand even less about our own background and
                                                              > identity as a people.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Hi everyone. Long time lurker, third time poster.
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > This is a bit of a sidetrack, but why is everyone so against selling
                                                              > your homemade booze? You'd think the complex and unstoppable market that
                                                              > has emerged for marijuana since prohibition, and it's associated
                                                              > community of breeders, growers, and connoisseurs would be a model to
                                                              > follow. Just look at how it exploded over the last thirty years in
                                                              > opposition to distinctly more unfavourable legal and social conditions
                                                              > than we're subject to.
                                                              > >
                                                              >
                                                            • tgfoitwoods
                                                              Dang, Geoff, I never gave the word a second thought, cause it fit so well in context. Intercourse has also become a kind of trigger word, like chauvinism ,
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Sep 16, 2010
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                Dang, Geoff,

                                                                I never gave the word a second thought, 'cause it fit so well in
                                                                context. Intercourse has also become a kind of trigger word, like
                                                                "chauvinism", which means nationalism or regionalism and not gender
                                                                bias. And then there's "predator" which has come to mean people who hump
                                                                the wrong people, instead of thangs that eat jackrabbits.

                                                                It's all so confusing.

                                                                Another point for the Christian Brothers: they used to make a so-so
                                                                brandy.

                                                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "geoff burrows" <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                                                                wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > I know Joe doesn't need any help out here. But here is
                                                                the defination of "intercourse" as used in the context Joe was
                                                                intending it to be used . Say what you like about the Christian
                                                                Brothers they taught english and everyone understood the language and
                                                                the use of the language perfectly so double meaning or not if you used a
                                                                word in the correct context there could only be one meaning
                                                                > Geoff
                                                                >
                                                                > Definitions of 'intercourse' Webster Dictionary
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > 1. (noun) intercourse
                                                                > a commingling; intimate connection or dealings between persons
                                                                or nations, as in common affairs and civilities, in correspondence or
                                                                trade; communication; commerce; especially, interchange of thought and
                                                                feeling; association; communion
                                                                >
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