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RE: [Distillers] Re: Fermenting fruit for a Eau-de-Vie

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  • Peggy Korth
    We are working with an organic farmer in Oregon who lives among many cherry farmers. I am not sure about his entire objectives and may start with a 3 reflux
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 28, 2010
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      We are working with an organic farmer in Oregon who lives among many cherry
      farmers. I am not sure about his entire objectives and may start with a 3"
      reflux moving on to a 6". Until it is underway, the plans are not firm.
      They hope to have something going, I will not know. The 3" is already
      available, the 6" is under construction.

      Peggy

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
      Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 3:09 AM
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Fermenting fruit for a Eau-de-Vie


      Definitly listen to ZB, believe he has his own vinyard. Even using the
      Scottzyme PEC5L pectinase, you shouldn't have to worry about the
      methanol which will not all come out in the foreshots. As Harry has
      mentioned, theres more methanol in orange juice then you will be
      getting.

      Tis nice to know that you dont crush your cherries. Jack Keller was
      talking about small batch production, crushing by hand and making a
      wine. Again with that high a brix in the lamberts, use just the
      straight juice and no sugar to get as much flavor as possible. Your bag
      concept sounds interesting and similar to what we use when making small
      batches which is a 5 gallon paint strainer bag to get the pulp and all
      out.

      As far as adjusting the pH, this is done sometimes when making a neutral
      alcohol to cut down on the esters from fermentation, but not if your
      making a flavored distillate. As Alex, a rum maker mentions:

      "Baking soda must be added to the stripped hooch for cleaning it from
      off flavors due to esters formed during fermentation, but only if
      you´re after something neutral such as vodka. If after something
      flavored as rum, whiskey, etc. do not add it, b/c precisely these
      esters are responsible for a big part of the flavors."

      BTW, how large a batch are you and Peggy planning on using for your
      eaux de vie and what type of stills do you have?

      JB.


      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Clearweather and Peggy,
      >
      > I've done a lot of eaux-de-vie, and a few runs of sweet cherry,
      Lamberts, mostly. I've never tested of modified pH in any of these, and
      have had outstandingly clean-flavored spirit. The basic rules I've
      followed are these:
      > Do not add water to wash.
      > Do not attempt to increase wash ABV (like by adding sugar).
      > On the stripping run, discard only foreshots.
      > On the spirit run, go slowly and collect in perhaps 10 or 12
      containers, from which you dilute samples to 40% ABV to make the cuts.
      Be fierce in setting aside fractions that are less than great.
      > Pectin's only crime is that it forms small amounts of methanol. This
      happens in all fruit wines where pectinase is used on pectin.
      Distillation will not materially reduce the amount of methanol, but it's
      ok because the concentration is small.
      >
      > I love exploring various eaux-de-vie, because of the subtle and varied
      flavors they contain.
      >
      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
      >
      >
      >
      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > From: doug@...
      > Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 23:11:33 +0000
      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Fermenting fruit for a Eau-de-Vie

      > The best way to deal with cherries is to not crush or press them. The
      pits fall to the bottom on the fermentation bin. There is not problem
      with the cyanide. There is no impact on the yeast.
      >
      > What is the best ph and acidity level for distilling fruit wines. Is
      the stripping run better at a different ph than the spirit run? I seem
      to have read somewhere that fruit wines are harder to distill cleaner
      because of the pectin's. Does anyone know?
      >
      > Just more questions..... Thanks
      >
      > ClearWeather





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    • jamesonbeam1
      Ooopps, Sorry ZB, Kirsch or Kirschwasser by definition is a dry, clear liquor as made in Germany, Switzerland and other areas. This is totally different from
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 28, 2010
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        Ooopps,

        Sorry ZB,  Kirsch or Kirschwasser by definition is a dry, clear liquor as made in Germany, Switzerland and other areas.  This is totally different from sweet cherry liquors or liqueurs that are maserated with the cherries.  I mis-spoke when calling it a "faux" Kirsch....  Dont get confused between Kirsch and cherry brandy that is usually sweet and colored.

        JB.

        Kirschwasser (English pronunciation: /ˈkɪərʃvÉ`ːsər/ KEERSH-vahs-ər, German: [ˈkɪɐ̯ʃvasɐ], German for "cherry water") is a clear, colourless fruit brandy traditionally made from double-distillation of morello cherries, a dark-coloured cultivar of the sour cherry. However, the beverage is now also made from other kinds of cherries.

        The cherries are fermented complete (that is, including their stones).[1]

        Kirschwasser is often simply called Kirsch in both German- and English-speaking countries.

        Unlike cherry liqueurs and so-called "cherry brandies", Kirschwasser is not sweet. The best Kirschwassers have a refined taste with subtle flavors of cherry and a slight bitter-almond taste that derives from the stones. Kirschwasser is used in many mixed drinks, such as the Lady Finger, the Florida Cocktail, and Black Forest.

        Kirschwasser is usually drunk neat. Traditionally, it is often served cold in a very small glass and is taken as an apéritif. However, people in the German-speaking region where Kirschwasser originated usually serve it after dinner, as a digestif.

        High-quality Kirschwasser is often served at room temperature and may be warmed by the hands, as with brandy.

        Because morellos were originally grown in the Black Forest region of southern Germany, Kirschwasser is believed to have originated there.

        Kirschwasser is colourless because it is either not aged in wood or is aged in barrels made of ash. It may have been aged in paraffin-lined wood barrels or in earthenware vessels.[1]

        Clear fruit brandies made from distilled, fermented fruit are very popular in southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and France. In France and in English-speaking countries, these beverages are known as eaux de vie. The European Union sets a minimum of 37.5% ABV (75 proof) for products of this kind; Kirschwasser typically has an alcohol content of 40%–50% ABV (80–100 proof). About 10 kilograms (22 pounds) of cherries go into the making of a 750 ml bottle of Kirschwasser.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsch

         


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Ok, Waldo,
        >
        > You're opening a subject that's confused me for a lot of years, dealing with name of cherry spirits. I know kirschwasser (cherry water) as a proper clear eau-de-vie, dry and fiery, and often bottled at 110 proof. "Kirsch" (simply "cherry") on the other hand, I'm not so sure about. I think I've heard the name given to both the white eau-de-vie and the macerated, sweetened spirit.
        >
        > I know that "kummel" (caraway) applies to either a dry aquavit kind of spirit or a sweetened caraway liqueur(which I love), depending on what part of Europe you're in. Is that what's happening with "kirsch"?
        >
        > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

      • jamesonbeam1
        Peggy, Why are you using reflux? The idea behind reflux is to allow multiple distillations within a single run to give a very high ABV alcohol - usually
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 28, 2010
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          Peggy,

          Why are you using reflux?  The idea behind reflux is to allow multiple distillations within a single run to give a very high ABV alcohol - usually neutral in flavor.  If you want to make a nice cherry brandy or kirsch, you want to keep as much flavor as possible and distill to no more the 160 proof or 80%.  Higher then this, you will be losing flavors. 

          Reflux stills may operate as pot stills (the traditional way) if the packing is removed and reflux condenser is turned off, as long as there is a regular condenser attached.  Depending on the number of theoretical plates in a reflux still  (amount of packing, width and height of the column), you can get very high concentrations of alcohol and lose alot of flavors:

          "Each of these "steps" represents an "ideal plate" where enough mingling of liquid & vapour allows them to come to equilibrium. If you don't allow enough mingling (equilibrium), then you won't achieve a full step, but end up a little shy of the target. You get the first step free - its the boiler/pot.

          Basically, off a 10% wash
          1 = 53%
          2 = 80%
          3 = 87%
          4 = 90%
          5 = 92%
          6 = 92.6%
          7 = 93.3%
          8 = 93.8%
          9 = 94.2%
          10 = 94.4%

          One way of doing these steps is to do many single distillations, collect the vapour that comes off, condense it, clean out the still, and run it through the still again. This why pot stillers do double & triple distillations to get into the 80+ % range. But a Reflux column allows this to happen continuously; if given enough surface area to equilibrate on, the vapour can have gone through multiple distillations by the time it gets to the top of the column.

          For each plate to work, it has to be at a particular temperature, slightly cooler than the one below, and warmer than the one above. Only then will it achieve its equilibrium and an increase in the alcohol purity. The differences are really fine too – its all happening only between 78.1 C and 82.2 C – quite a tight band to walk between."

          In a pot still you only have to worry about a single plate with some internal reflux usually and you can make it as strong as you want with several distillations and by diluting the distillate each time you distill and have more control.

          Might want to read through some of Tony's Homedistillers site at:  http://homedistiller.org/  especially the theory section and http://homedistiller.org/refluxdesign.htm#multi to get an idea of where im comming from.  Not saying you cant do this in a reflux, many brandies are made in fractional stills, but you have to be careful.

          JB.

           


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy Korth" <rpk@...> wrote:
          >
          > We are working with an organic farmer in Oregon who lives among many cherry
          > farmers. I am not sure about his entire objectives and may start with a 3"
          > reflux moving on to a 6". Until it is underway, the plans are not firm.
          > They hope to have something going, I will not know. The 3" is already
          > available, the 6" is under construction.
          >
          > Peggy

        • Peggy Korth
          Thanks for the how to . I will pass this on to the farmer who owns the still. Peggy _____ From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 28, 2010
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            Thanks for the ‘how to’.  I will pass this on to the farmer who owns the still.

             

            Peggy

             


            From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
            Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 1:19 PM
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Fermenting fruit for a Eau-de-Vie

             




            Peggy,

            Why are you using reflux?  The idea behind reflux is to allow multiple distillations within a single run to give a very high ABV alcohol - usually neutral in flavor.  If you want to make a nice cherry brandy or kirsch, you want to keep as much flavor as possible and distill to no more the 160 proof or 80%.  Higher then this, you will be losing flavors. 

            Reflux stills may operate as pot stills (the traditional way) if the packing is removed and reflux condenser is turned off, as long as there is a regular condenser attached.  Depending on the number of theoretical plates in a reflux still  (amount of packing, width and height of the column), you can get very high concentrations of alcohol and lose alot of flavors:

            "Each of these "steps" represents an "ideal plate" where enough mingling of liquid & vapour allows them to come to equilibrium. If you don't allow enough mingling (equilibrium), then you won't achieve a full step, but end up a little shy of the target. You get the first step free - its the boiler/pot.

            Basically, off a 10% wash
            1 = 53%
            2 = 80%
            3 = 87%
            4 = 90%
            5 = 92%
            6 = 92.6%
            7 = 93.3%
            8 = 93.8%
            9 = 94.2%
            10 = 94.4%

            One way of doing these steps is to do many single distillations, collect the vapour that comes off, condense it, clean out the still, and run it through the still again. This why pot stillers do double & triple distillations to get into the 80+ % range. But a Reflux column allows this to happen continuously; if given enough surface area to equilibrate on, the vapour can have gone through multiple distillations by the time it gets to the top of the column.

            For each plate to work, it has to be at a particular temperature, slightly cooler than the one below, and warmer than the one above. Only then will it achieve its equilibrium and an increase in the alcohol purity. The differences are really fine too – its all happening only between 78.1 C and 82.2 C – quite a tight band to walk between."

            In a pot still you only have to worry about a single plate with some internal reflux usually and you can make it as strong as you want with several distillations and by diluting the distillate each time you distill and have more control.

            Might want to read through some of Tony's Homedistillers site at:  http://homedistiller.org/  especially the theory section and http://homedistiller.org/refluxdesign.htm#multi to get an idea of where im comming from.  Not saying you cant do this in a reflux, many brandies are made in fractional stills, but you have to be careful.

            JB.

             


            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy Korth" <rpk@...> wrote:

            >
            > We are working with an organic farmer in
            w:st="on">Oregon who lives among many cherry
            > farmers. I am not sure about his entire objectives and may start with a
            3"
            > reflux moving on to a 6". Until it is underway, the plans are not
            firm.
            > They hope to have something going, I will not know. The 3" is already
            > available, the 6" is under construction.
            >
            > Peggy


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