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Re: Dunder & it's later use in Rum's.

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Most definitely its dunder Mike, Thats exactly what dunder is and should look like. Somewhere around here or New Distillers theres a great picture of the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 10, 2010
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      Most definitely its dunder Mike,

      Thats exactly what dunder is and should look like. Somewhere around
      here or New Distillers theres a great picture of the stuff. I'll try to
      find it, but please. please dont put that gosh awful stuff into your
      finished product - PLEASE lol... Just use it in your next fermentation.

      Vino es Veritas,

      Jim aka Waldo.


      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <zedrally@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi all, have arrived home and have just inspected the rum products I
      had put down 7 weeks ago.
      > The breakdown is from a 30L wash of molasses & brown sugar, produced
      7L @ 55%, stored in glass with oak chips. Needs more time & refinement
      before consupmtion, I'm in no rush, so they it can wait. I also saved
      15L of "leftover" wash after the first run which I have stored in a 15L
      fermenter, didn't show much potental before I left for work, it has
      however blosumed during my 7 weeks away with a beautiful mould colony
      growing on top, colour a wonderful rich brown and the most incedible
      aroma.
      >
      > Is this the Dunder that I have read about?
      >
      > If it is, then is it possible to use in the next step of
      colouring/spicing or is it just used to start the next wash?
      >
      > Any ideas?
      >
      > TIA
      >
      > Mike (the KafirLimeachello maker, who will add to that report later in
      the week after sampling)!
      >
    • MoSS
      Wonderful! I remember reading an article on using it, but I can t locate it. I m thinking that the dunder is very much like a sourdough mother, which
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 11, 2010
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        Wonderful!

        I remember reading an article on using it, but I can't locate it.
        I'm thinking that the "dunder" is very much like a sourdough mother, which improves with age. If it is, then perhaps the first few rum runs may best be double or even triple distilled then carbon filtered to neutral and used for other purposes?

        Mike

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Most definitely its dunder Mike,
        >
        > Thats exactly what dunder is and should look like. Somewhere around
        > here or New Distillers theres a great picture of the stuff. I'll try to
        > find it, but please. please dont put that gosh awful stuff into your
        > finished product - PLEASE lol... Just use it in your next fermentation.
        >
        > Vino es Veritas,
        >
        > Jim aka Waldo.
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <zedrally@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi all, have arrived home and have just inspected the rum products I
        > had put down 7 weeks ago.
        > > The breakdown is from a 30L wash of molasses & brown sugar, produced
        > 7L @ 55%, stored in glass with oak chips. Needs more time & refinement
        > before consupmtion, I'm in no rush, so they it can wait. I also saved
        > 15L of "leftover" wash after the first run which I have stored in a 15L
        > fermenter, didn't show much potental before I left for work, it has
        > however blosumed during my 7 weeks away with a beautiful mould colony
        > growing on top, colour a wonderful rich brown and the most incedible
        > aroma.
        > >
        > > Is this the Dunder that I have read about?
        > >
        > > If it is, then is it possible to use in the next step of
        > colouring/spicing or is it just used to start the next wash?
        > >
        > > Any ideas?
        > >
        > > TIA
        > >
        > > Mike (the KafirLimeachello maker, who will add to that report later in
        > the week after sampling)!
        > >
        >
      • jamesonbeam1
        Definitely not Mike! Yes it is sort of like a sourdough starter that gets better the more fermentations you use it in - along with the same trub - its the same
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 11, 2010
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          Definitely not Mike!

          Yes it is sort of like a sourdough starter that gets better the more fermentations you use it in - along with the same trub - its the same principle as making sour mash whiskey. 

          But again please, please, PLEASE  (lol) do not triple distill it, then run it though a carbon filter and lose all those subtle wonderful flavors!!!!!!  Tis fine to do a stripping run then do a spirits run, but for the sake of good rum - please stop there;).

          Vino es Veritas,

          Jim aka Waldo.

          Note: Another use for dunder or sour mash is to use it for diluting you low wines instead of water if they are too strong..  Then make your spirits run - found this works very well.


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <zedrally@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wonderful!
          >
          > I remember reading an article on using it, but I can't locate it.
          > I'm thinking that the "dunder" is very much like a sourdough mother, which improves with age. If it is, then perhaps the first few rum runs may best be double or even triple distilled then carbon filtered to neutral and used for other purposes?
          >
          > Mike
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Most definitely its dunder Mike,
          > >
          > > Thats exactly what dunder is and should look like. Somewhere around
          > > here or New Distillers theres a great picture of the stuff. I'll try to
          > > find it, but please. please dont put that gosh awful stuff into your
          > > finished product - PLEASE lol... Just use it in your next fermentation.
          > >
          > > Vino es Veritas,
          > >
          > > Jim aka Waldo.

        • MoSS
          Oops, been misintrepreted. What I meant was: The rum I have already made would be better made into a neutral spirit, indeed, perhaps the next 2 or 3 washes
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 11, 2010
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            Oops, been misintrepreted.

            What I meant was: The rum I have already made would be better made into a neutral spirit, indeed, perhaps the next 2 or 3 washes using the "dunder", then aim for a "pure" rum using the mother from the previous 3. In other words, I shouldn't expect to much from this initial wash/run, with better results as the dunder gets older.

            Just out of curiousity, how long will the mother dunder live? I've read that there are sourdough mothers in Europe centuries old, is this possible with our dunder?

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Definitely not Mike!
            >
            > Yes it is sort of like a sourdough starter that gets better the more
            > fermentations you use it in - along with the same trub - its the same
            > principle as making sour mash whiskey.
            >
            > But again please, please, PLEASE (lol) do not triple distill it, then
            > run it though a carbon filter and lose all those subtle wonderful
            > flavors!!!!!! Tis fine to do a stripping run then do a spirits run, but
            > for the sake of good rum - please stop there [;)] .
            >
            > Vino es Veritas,
            >
            > Jim aka Waldo.
            >
            > Note: Another use for dunder or sour mash is to use it for diluting you
            > low wines instead of water if they are too strong.. Then make your
            > spirits run - found this works very well.
            >
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <zedrally@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Wonderful!
            > >
            > > I remember reading an article on using it, but I can't locate it.
            > > I'm thinking that the "dunder" is very much like a sourdough mother,
            > which improves with age. If it is, then perhaps the first few rum runs
            > may best be double or even triple distilled then carbon filtered to
            > neutral and used for other purposes?
            > >
            > > Mike
            > >
            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Most definitely its dunder Mike,
            > > >
            > > > Thats exactly what dunder is and should look like. Somewhere around
            > > > here or New Distillers theres a great picture of the stuff. I'll try
            > to
            > > > find it, but please. please dont put that gosh awful stuff into your
            > > > finished product - PLEASE lol... Just use it in your next
            > fermentation.
            > > >
            > > > Vino es Veritas,
            > > >
            > > > Jim aka Waldo.
            >
          • jamesonbeam1
            Ahh so sorry Mike, Thought you ment triple distilling the new batch made from the dunder you have. The concept here again is very similar to making sour mash
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 11, 2010
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              Ahh so sorry Mike,

              Thought you ment triple distilling the new batch made from the dunder you have.

              The concept here again is very similar to making sour mash Bourbon.  Your first fermentation is called "a sweet mash" which you then ferment and save the backset.  While it is not left to "age" like dunder, usually about 40% or more is added back to the next fermentation, which then can be called a true "sour mash".  This process is then repeated many times and by the 3rd or 4th reiteration you start to have some  really nice sour mash whiskey.

              The same hold true for the dunder process.  After each fermentation and distillation the backset is left to "age" and then re-added back to the next fermentation, and so on.   As far as "mother dunder", its really a continuous process.  I would only keep your current dunder till you add it to you next fermentation.  Now some of the famous old rum makers will add some of their original "mother rum" thats over a hundred or so years old to newly distilled batches, but definitely not the original dunder lol.

              As far as amount to use, Harry is really the expert on rum here, since his great granddaddy was making it years ago (recipe is in his library).  I usually add about 40 to 50% back into the next fermentation and throw the rest away, but see what he says.   As mentioned before, you can also use dunder to dilute your low wines from the stripping run instead of water.

              You also might want to read "Production of Rum" by Raphel Arroyo that Harry recommended to me when I first started out. http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Patent_2386924_Rums/index.htm

              Also puruse Rum - Thesis on Making - Sabina Maza Gómez

              BTW, below is the picture I mentioned in the first posting - does it look like yours?

              Good Luck.

              Vino es Veritas,

              Jim aka Waldo.

               

               

              Dunder

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <zedrally@...> wrote:
              >
              > Oops, been misintrepreted.
              >
              > What I meant was: The rum I have already made would be better made into a neutral spirit, indeed, perhaps the next 2 or 3 washes using the "dunder", then aim for a "pure" rum using the mother from the previous 3. In other words, I shouldn't expect to much from this initial wash/run, with better results as the dunder gets older.
              >
              > Just out of curiousity, how long will the mother dunder live? I've read that there are sourdough mothers in Europe centuries old, is this possible with our dunder?

            • jamesonbeam1
              Ment to say your first fermentation is called a a sweet mash which you then distill and save the backset. Also you can add some of the first dunder to the
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 12, 2010
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                Ment to say your first fermentation is called a "a sweet mash" which you then distill and save the backset.

                Also you can add some of the first dunder to the next batch of backset to infect it with the same mold and bacteria and then let that age and continue doing this with each new batch of dunder  - if thats what you ment by the "mother".;)

                JB.


                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:

                The concept here again is very similar to making sour mash Bourbon.  Your first fermentation is called "a sweet mash" which you then ferment and save the backset.  While it is not left to "age" like dunder, usually about 40% or more is added back to the next fermentation, which then can be called a true "sour mash".  This process is then repeated many times and by the 3rd or 4th reiteration you start to have some  really nice sour mash whiskey.

                ____snip

              • jamesonbeam1
                Dang sorry Mike, One more correction. Its Harry s Great, Great Grandad s recipe I was referring to - Rum - Harry s Great Great Granddad s Rum
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 12, 2010
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                  Dang sorry Mike,


                  One more correction. Its Harry's Great, Great Grandad's recipe I was referring to - Rum - Harry's Great Great Granddad's Rum or HGGGDDR recipe for short.:)   While the original is in script and hard to read, below is a translation from Tony's site who called it "Harry's Grand-dads" recipe.

                  Vino es Veritas,

                  Jim aka Waldo.

                  Harry's Grand-dads recipe:

                    How to make Rum out of Molasses and Brown sugar.

                    Take 4 gals molasses and 10 lbs sugar. Mix these together in 16 gals water. Now you commence setting mash in large wooden casks (not in any tin vessels) - only a wooden cask for good results. Put the above in cask the 1st day then when nearly cool add 1 ale bottle full of yeast (which is to start mask working). Remember when you put in the 4 gals molasses and the 10 lbs sugar into cask - have a little paddle made for stirring and stir constantly for fully 1/4 of an hour to blend things together, these will be mixed in hot water (not boiling) but just so as you can put your fingers in it without getting scalded. The hot water will melt the sugar and molasses splendidly and will give you more spirits and better rum. After you're finished stirring the 1st days lot also boil 8 lbs of old potatoes in muslin bag and put into the mash with yeast. And also with the yeast and 8 lbs potatoes you boil about 3/4 of a milk bucket of old maize in a sugar bag tied like a pudding and dont forget to drop this in the 1st days mash with the potatoes and yeast and again stirr well. This finishes the 1st days mash and dont take them out till the mash is fit to go into the boiler on the fire for distilling.

                    Second days setting. Put another 4 gals molasses and 10 lbs sugar into cask on top of the 1st days setting and stir well for fully ten minutes. This finishes the 2nd days setting.

                    Third days setting. Add another 4 gals molasses and 16 gallons water (no sugar) and again stir well (this finishes the setting of the mash).

                    To know when this is fit to put through you will see a little scum of bubbles will come to the top now and again. This will continue for two days sometimes three days then when scum is at its highest and starts to drop (Brew it). Don't forget when you finish the 3rd days setting to put a bag over the top of the cask then the lid belonging to cask on top of bag and a weight on top of it to keep warm and airtight. Have an occasional look at the cask when you finish setting the 3rd day because it works sometimes in 36 hours according to the hot or cold weather. In summer time it works a lot quicker than winter so a good idea is to brew in the summer time and stow away to get a bit of age so as it will not be too new to the taste, then sell in winter time when rum is more freely drank.

                    Now to make good rum to sell you want to know when distilling when to cut off the good rum from the second class stuff and the only way to do this is to get a hydrometer. (High means good spirits, low means poor spirits). You place this under the end of the worm in whatever you are catching the spirits in and as this vessel starts to get more than 1/2 full this hydrometer will start to float and register whatever proof the spirits is that you are making.

                    Now you always want two vessels one to catch the good 1st class spirits and immediately the hydrometer begins to register too low a reading pull the 1st class vessel away and pop the 2nd vessel under in its place to catch the 2nd class spirits. After a good while just have a teaspoon with you and dip same into the the 2nd class and throw a spoon full now and again into the fire and if it flares up like kero or meths that would be thrown in keep on as this is a sign there is still good 2nd hand spirits in the brew but after a while when what you throw in fire quenches the fire like water stop as this is the sign that you have taken all the spirits out of the mash. Anyhow you can taste it and if it has an alumny taste draw the charge from boiler and fill up again for another boil up.

                    Now the 2nd's have to be stowed away to themselves in a vessel and all the good 1st class stuff put to themselves as this 1st class brew is ready for sale without further distilling but in order to bring the 2nd class stuff to 1st class you have to put it through the still the 2nd time then it is 1st class and can now be stowed away with the other 1st class brew.

                    Now the next thing to know is how to do up your white spirits and tone it up for sale. Here is the rinkle. Aways put your spirits away in a large cask, or a wine cask is the best as rum and wine taste alike. Never put rum in a cask that beer has been in or you will spoil its taste. When you put it in the wine cask leave the bung hole open for 24 hours and as soon as you put it in the cask make a small curtain bag and put about a match box full of cloves in it and let down the bung hole tied with long piece of string so as you can lift it out. Then get a good well ripened pineapple and peel it and cut it in narrow strips about the length of a cigar and twice as thick and poke these down the bung hole, then get about 3/4 of an ordinary teacup full of seeded raisins and put these down the bung of cask into the spirits with the others, then put the bung back in cask and stow it away. Then when you are ready to sell your rum it is in its natural white state. Now you have to colour it for sale. Now to properly colour rum use white sugar not brown because it will make the rum too cloudy and dull and dark looking.

                    So in order to have a good clear clean bright looking spirit in a glass for drinking always use white sugar for colouring purposes. Buy a small frying pan for this purpose and dont use it for any other means because any greasy sediment will show in the coloured spirit. To colour say 5 gals rum put about 1/2 teacup of white sugar to start with in the pan, not over a blazing fire but on red hot coals; these should not be too strong to overburn the sugar or your rum will have a bad burnt taste so be careful and burn sugar to a good clean dark brown bubble. Keep moving the sugar in the pan with a long stirrer so as to evenly brown every grain then pour a cup of cold water in the pan on top of sugar at the same time stirring. When sufficiently stirred pour into a good clean bright quart bottle for colouring with. Of course you keep on burning sugar making bottles of the colouring till you have sufficient to colour your rum as it will keep in a bottle for a long time. The best guide is to buy a few shillings worth of good rum in a bright bottle and have this alongside of yours when you are colouring and you can compare the two so as you will not overdo things in the colouring or not give it enough colour.

                    Now everything is ready & OK for sale.

                    Finally i nearly forgot to mention when you are taking the rum out of the cask for colouring. When you colour, strain thoroughly before you put away for sale as the pineapple and cloves and raisins always leave a sediment and you in order to have a real clean article must strain real well.

                    Don't forget to get fully 22 feet of pure tin piping for the worm and 1 inch which means 7/8 waterway and when the worm is made must be coiled so as a gradual incline to lead the spirits through and no uphill position in the making as this means a blockage in flow and cause the mash to boil over. Get a good plumber to make the worm for you, should you not be able to get the pure tin you will have to get copper. But tin is more easy to clean all you have to do with tin after you finish each grew is to pour a bucket of cold water through it and it is always bright and clean. Understand when you are setting worm in cask at bottom it sticks out about fully 3 or 4 inches on a slight slope through a watertight hole through cask into catching vessel.

                    When distilling the 2nds in the white spirits state be careful not to have too strong a fire as this is very inflammable and will blow up so be carefull.

                    Say you have 5 gals of 2nd class brew cut off from the 1st class. When you put this into the boiler to distil put about 1/2 gal clean water in with it and it wont blow up, the water wont harm the brew, it will be of benefit to it and the rum wont be so fiery to taste.

                    For any second treatment the putting through of white spirits a person really wants a very much smaller boiler as the 50 gal boiler is too big. You only really need about a 10 gal boiler and you can have one made at the same time to just have the same size neck so as to fit the lid & pipe & worm & all and when boiling a mash use the 50 gal boiler, you never want to fill the boiler with mash - only slightly over 1/2 full or it will boil over in spite of you as it is just as hard to keep from boiling over as milk.

                  --- In Distillers@yahoo
                  groups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Ment to say your first fermentation is called a "a sweet mash" which you
                  > then distill and save the backset.
                  >
                  > Also you can add some of the first dunder to the next batch of backset
                  > to infect it with the same mold and bacteria and then let that age and
                  > continue doing this with each new batch of dunder - if thats what you
                  > ment by the "mother". [;)]
                  >
                  > JB.

                • MoSS
                  Thanks Jim, Much clearer now and must read further. Thanks for the links My dunder is in one mould, rather than the seperate colonies shown in the photo. I
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 12, 2010
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                    Thanks Jim,

                    Much clearer now and must read further. Thanks for the links

                    My dunder is in one mould, rather than the seperate colonies shown in the photo. I guess you answered my question about age, The way I understand it is that's it's very similar to a solera where by 50% of the past batch is used in the new one, part of the original is always present (although in every decreasing amounts after many years).
                    This intersts me and wonder who might have the oldest dunder,(I can date mine!) both commercial & hobby?

                    Now to start the next batch....

                    Mike

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Ahh so sorry Mike,
                    >
                    > Thought you ment triple distilling the new batch made from the dunder
                    > you have.
                    >
                    > The concept here again is very similar to making sour mash Bourbon.
                    > Your first fermentation is called "a sweet mash" which you then ferment
                    > and save the backset. While it is not left to "age" like dunder,
                    > usually about 40% or more is added back to the next fermentation, which
                    > then can be called a true "sour mash". This process is then repeated
                    > many times and by the 3rd or 4th reiteration you start to have some
                    > really nice sour mash whiskey.
                    >
                    > The same hold true for the dunder process. After each fermentation and
                    > distillation the backset is left to "age" and then re-added back to the
                    > next fermentation, and so on. As far as "mother dunder", its really a
                    > continuous process. I would only keep your current dunder till you add
                    > it to you next fermentation. Now some of the famous old rum makers will
                    > add some of their original "mother rum" thats over a hundred or so years
                    > old to newly distilled batches, but definitely not the original dunder
                    > lol.
                    >
                    > As far as amount to use, Harry is really the expert on rum here, since
                    > his great granddaddy was making it years ago (recipe is in his library).
                    > I usually add about 40 to 50% back into the next fermentation and throw
                    > the rest away, but see what he says. As mentioned before, you can also
                    > use dunder to dilute your low wines from the stripping run instead of
                    > water.
                    >
                    > You also might want to read "Production of Rum" by Raphel Arroyo that
                    > Harry recommended to me when I first started out.
                    > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Patent_2386924_Rums/index.htm
                    > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Patent_2386924_Rums/index.htm>
                    >
                    > Also puruse Rum - Thesis on Making - Sabina Maza Gómez
                    > <http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-1114102-110301/unrestricted/Maza_\
                    > Gomez_thesis.pdf>
                    >
                    > BTW, below is the picture I mentioned in the first posting - does it
                    > look like yours?
                    >
                    > Good Luck.
                    >
                    > Vino es Veritas,
                    >
                    > Jim aka Waldo.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Dunder]
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <zedrally@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Oops, been misintrepreted.
                    > >
                    > > What I meant was: The rum I have already made would be better made
                    > into a neutral spirit, indeed, perhaps the next 2 or 3 washes using the
                    > "dunder", then aim for a "pure" rum using the mother from the previous
                    > 3. In other words, I shouldn't expect to much from this initial
                    > wash/run, with better results as the dunder gets older.
                    > >
                    > > Just out of curiousity, how long will the mother dunder live? I've
                    > read that there are sourdough mothers in Europe centuries old, is this
                    > possible with our dunder?
                    >
                  • jamesonbeam1
                    Yes Mike, Adding some of the old back into the new (or visa versa) to continue the mother line is pretty much SOP in the rum industry. So I guess you could
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 12, 2010
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                      Yes Mike,

                      Adding some of the old back into the new (or visa versa) to continue the "mother line" is pretty much SOP in the rum industry.  So I guess you could say that their dunder line goes as far back as this process was followed (several caribbean distilleries are centuries old).

                      However, this is assumming you are making a new batch every week or so.  In my case, I usually just make rum during the summer months so its tough to keep this up - why I just usually throw my old stuff away.

                      Also, the second part of this "dunder" equation is a continuation of the yeast and trub line as well.  Dunder is also considered as the yeast rich trub left at the bottom of the fermentation to start the new fermentation with (same as in the sour mash world).  Matter o fact, if you do a search on dunder in either Yahoo or Google, thats what all the definitions state.   If you want to read more on dunder,  type in dunder in the search window of this site and go to the very beginning - back to 2003 and see what Harry had to say about it ;).

                      Vino es Veritas,

                      Jim aka Waldo.


                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <zedrally@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks Jim,
                      >
                      > Much clearer now and must read further. Thanks for the links
                      >
                      > My dunder is in one mould, rather than the seperate colonies shown in the photo. I guess you answered my question about age, The way I understand it is that's it's very similar to a solera where by 50% of the past batch is used in the new one, part of the original is always present (although in every decreasing amounts after many years).
                      > This intersts me and wonder who might have the oldest dunder,(I can date mine!) both commercial & hobby?
                      >
                      > Now to start the next batch....
                      >
                      > Mike

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