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Re: [Distillers] Re: 10mm coil

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  • geoff
    Hi Riku, You wrote :- Another thing that might help would be obstructions in inner and outer shell walls. With plastic sever pipes that I plan to use that
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 18, 2009
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      Hi Riku,

           You wrote :-

      “Another thing that might help would be obstructions in inner and outer shell walls. With plastic sever pipes that I plan to use that should be relatively easy to do and try, I could glue or even tape on different fins and things to introduce more turbulence.”

       

            I had thought of that as well but thought it would be a bit of a bugger soldering down inside the 3” copper tube.  I hadn’t realized you were using plastic server pipes. 

      Now  to break the layer and disrupt both the effects on the walls of server tubes.  If  you cut a few half inch rings off the top of a spare piece of server pipe. Split each the (3mm thick) wall of the server pipe rings along length-wise on the half inch part and take off enough to be able to insert the ring inside your cooling tower without an overlap, (so that the ends just meet each other inside the server pipe)do this again inside that ring (so that the ends just meet each other inside that server ring insert).  Slide this down inside keeping them about 50mm apart (to start with).  This will give you a 6mm thick ring all the way round inside the server pipe.  Put a couple of little flat shouldered self taping screws through from the outside the cooling tower into the rings in order  to hold them in position.  This will take 12mm off the inside of the internal diameter of the cooling tower.  This will also allow you to move them up or down for fine tuning of the break up of the laminar/Coanda effect).  You can also do this with one ring on the outside part of the 2” (50mm) pipe you are going to use.  That will break the laminar flow on the 2” (50mm) internal pipe and break the boundary layer.

       Enough said problem solved except for you to do the experimentation and research.

      Geoff     
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:43 PM
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: 10mm coil

       

      This is actually going to be a product condenser for a VM still. Vapor flows in to the coil and gets condensed there. I've been thinking the laminar vs. turbulent flow as well. One idea would be to have the coil zig-zag a bit inside the area inbetween the two pipes. That way there would be no straight path for the flow to go through.

      The coanda effect could probably be countered if the coil was actually touching walls every now and then. Based on my experiments the scrubbers would restrict the flow too much, after all those fans are not very powerful.

      Thanks for the link, it seems I'll have to think this a bit more.

      Slainte, Riku

      --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "geoff" <jeffrey.burrows@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Riku,
      >
      > Let me get in the same ballpark as you. As I read you idea, you've hot/warm water running in along the 10mm pipe (from the condenser coil in the column which you are intending to air cool via another bigger coil in the 3" pipe by force feeding air through fans top and bottom of the 3" pipe. Right I can get that far and by tapering or pointing a 2" pipe you are intending to force /channel this air onto the coil thereby cooling the 10mm pipe.
      >
      > The only thing I can see wrong is:-
      >
      > the fast airflow will tend to want to stick to the wall of the 3" pipe and bypass the cooling coil. This is known as the Coanda effect. See this link
      >
      > http://tiny. cc/fikd0
      >
      > The coil also although having little rounded ridges (across the flow) in respect of the direction of the fast air flow will try to make a straight line (laminar flow) across and over the coil ring thus giving you limited cooling by just cooling the top of the coil pipe
      >
      > To fix this I would disrupt this laminar flow and the Coanda effect by stuffing the voids loosely with stainless steel scrubbers. It will slow/re-direct and disrupt the airflow enough and it will get directed on to the coil and be enough to take the heat off the10mm pipe yet it will still keep a good volume of air flowing. And hopefully give you a good air cooled condenser for your purpose
      >
      > HTH
      >
      > Geoff
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: abbababbaccc
      > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:24 PM
      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: 10mm coil
      >
      >
      >
      > The plan is to build it like this:
      >
      > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Distillers /files/rkr/ ac-product- condenser. JPG
      >
      > About 50 cm long condenser should house about 5 meters of 10mm copper pipe. The 2" pipe inside guides the flow to the spiral (the end could be sharpened). Two fans on both ends to ensure lots of flowthrough. My rough estimation is that this should be capable of hadling 1kW worth of vapor.
      >
      > Any comments?
      >
      > Slainte, Riku
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "burrows206" <jeffrey.burrows@ > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Riku,
      > > I've made a 10mm pipe x 10" long 2" internal diameter condenser coil. (for the recommended 3" pipe housing in the Valved Reflux Still plans) And surface area compared to quarter inch I calculated it to be approximately just below twice the cooling surface area. At the time I made my Valved Reflux Still I hade a spare roll 10mm left over from my plumbing days so I used that.
      > > I removed the roll from the sealed plastic bag (keeps the little beasties out of the pipe) and leaned it against the wall and with a 1" blow torch nozzle, I blow torched it red all the way round. This left it so soft I could squeeze the end a flat-ish oval between finger and thumb. To be 100% sure of no kinks (that I'd heard so many people had fallen fowl to) I used an external10mm pipe as I bent it around the 2" pipe. I used 2 x 10mm x 90 degree elbows to elbow straight out horizontally across the internal coil diameter and down the side of the column offset and down column.
      > > As to whether it would soft enough to bend (without kinking) for the tight to fit inside a 2" column. I would say test it on a half a metre by annealing it and using a 10mm pipe spring bender to see how you get on, mine bent really easy with not even so much as a thought of a kink.
      > > HTH
      > > Geoff
      > >
      >

    • Geoff
      Hello Riku and Geoff, hi folks, This does not come from any knowledge or expertise, just seems logical; and for that reason is probably what I would do. Also
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 18, 2009
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        Hello Riku and Geoff, hi folks,

        This does not come from any knowledge or expertise, just seems logical; and for that reason is probably what I would do.
        Also it might be a good idea but even if it is not it would probably work at least as well as any other arrangement.

        The traditional shape of the lyne arm in a pot still is that it is tapered, and I have seen some discussion by more knowledgeable people on another forum that suggests it is more efficient than a non-tapered arm. Also it is the shape used by commercial still makers so they must think it best.

        So in my (plain) VM still, when I get around to constructing it, I will probably have a tee with an outlet the same size as the column (say two inch); and taper the horizontal arm to say one inch, then insert a one-inch valve.

        Regards,

        The Baker



        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is actually for a VM-E-ARC so it can't be compared to regular VM. I've been using 12mm ID condensor and 10mm ID valve lately and gotten 2.1 liters/hour neutral azeotrope, so I believe 10mm condenser ID is sufficient for my needs.
        >
        > Anyway, I plan on having a larger diameter vertical pipe that drops to this smaller diameter condenser. Perhaps setting that larger pipe above the fans so it provides some precondensation before the actual spiral.
        >
        > These are 12V computer fans so the efficiency is limited. I want to keep this compact so I'll stay with these fans. I already built a 2kW reflux condenser with these so I think they have some potential.
        >
        > Finned copper pipe would be an excellent choice but unfortunately it's not available to me. Another thing that might help would be obstructions in inner and outer shell walls. With plastic sever pipes that I plan to use that should be relatively easy to do and try, I could glue or even tape on different fins and things to introduce more turbulence. That should allow the use of "neat" coil. Hmm, duct tape and some cardboard ...
        >
        > Slainte, Riku
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "geoff" <jeffrey.burrows@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Riku,
        > >
        > > I had thought of zig zagging with the coil and randomly touching the walls.
        > >
        > > But that sat very untidily in the engineering side of my head. The scrubbers put in very loosely were the "next best" solution (although still mechanically untidy). I'm assuming the fans they are something like low power computer chip fans or 12 volt car heater fans. The car heater fans would be a better job. An even better idea would be if you could somehow incorporate 10mm finned base board pipe (the fins would be near enough in line with the air flow so you would certainly get excellent heat dissipation through the fans. You only have to look at motorbike engines or the highly efficient forced air feed Volkswagen beetle engines.
        > >
        > > If you are directing the vapour through the coil 10mm is a bit on the small bore size to collect ethanol. I've used plastic covered underground copper pipe which can be stripped off to leave a very clean and very malleable 15mm copper pipe.
        > >
        > > This is specially made plastic coating is meant to cope with most of the common chemical soil conditions and movements that can normally be found underground. This I think would be a far better option with a long-ish spiral as opposed to tight coil and it would let the air circulate better
        > >
        > > Your product collection is governed by your gate valve and pipe bore size and density of ethanol within the steam/vapour. If you have 10mm pipe it doesn't matter if you have a three quarter inch gate valve 10mm is the only rate you are going to collect at.
        > >
        > > With Vapour Management its ethanol density, column size (diameter and length) verses collection pipe (diameter and length) and surface area of the condenser, and if you get it right proportionately you'll get good reflux and collection
        > >
        > > I'm thinking with your proposed set up you would have excellent reflux with the 10mm (with the ethanol backing up and getting denser all thee time, queuing as it were to get out of the column if you follow what I mean) very slow but good quality collection (high % Abv)
        > >
        > > HTH
        > >
        > > Geoff
        > >
        > >
        >
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