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Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and glass outer shell for a Cu coil conde

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  • lynx421
    ... they will be used for rectification. All kettles are double lined, dimple style tanks with pressure lids that I salvaged from an industrial manufacturer. I
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 24, 2009
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      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Rufus" <rufusroughguts@...> wrote:
      >I have two dimple kettles both 225 gallon, stainless steel, that I am modifying the pressure tops to receive the columns, one 20 plate, one pass through pot still for stripping. I also have two 30 gallon steam pressure dimple kettles with lid, modifying to take 4 inch copper columns...
      they will be used for rectification.
      All kettles are double lined, dimple style tanks with pressure lids that I salvaged from an industrial manufacturer.

      I am using a natural gas/ propane gas steam generator for heat. Its a little more practical than a boiler, more direct fire. I have salvaged temp controls on the steam discharge side .

      have to see when she is up and running if it can keep up with the demand. I am using a separate commercial soup kettle thats good for 100 gallons to create my wort for fermentation so it doesnt stress or bog down the system. Thats as far as I have gotten.

      lynx421





      > Thank you for that info. From what you've written it sounds like you
      > are well on your way. I'm planning on using 15 psi (29 psia) steam to
      > heat the kettle. What are you planning on using for your heat source?
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lynx421" <lynx421@> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Rufus" rufusroughguts@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I'm in the design phase for a new distillation unit and and I was
      > looking for a source for 8" or 10" copper pipe. I was hoping to find a
      > vendor who sells the this type of pipe by the foot. I am also looking
      > for the materials to make a copper coil condenser with a glass outer
      > shell.
      > > >
      > > > Rufus
      > > >
      > >
      > > copper pipe this diameter is very hard to come by... I am also
      > building a commercial still and have substituted 316L stainless steel
      > pipe for copper in the kettle and column for my strip stills... I am
      > using 4 inch copper and a 8 inch brass/ copper heat exchanger for the
      > rectification still.
      > >
      > > If your dead set on copper, i found up to 8 inch at the industrial
      > plumbing supply house special order folks in syracuse NY. very
      > expensive. 125.00 per foot US.
      > >
      > > I look forward to hearing about you build. good luck.
      > >
      > > lynx421
      > >
      >
    • Geoff
      Hi, folks, and hello Thomas, First let me say I am not at all an expert in this stuff. Thomas, that picture looks like what I imagine to be called (I think) a
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 27, 2009
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        Hi, folks, and hello Thomas,
        First let me say I am not at all an expert in this stuff.

        Thomas, that picture looks like what I imagine to be called (I think) a 'fractionating still/column'.
        My idea of the way it works is that its reflux action makes
        differing concentrations of alcohol available at the various draw-off points (at each plate) as you have shown.

        You could have separate taps with a collection vessel for each one.

        But you have shown all (most?) of these draw-off pipes simply combining into a common vertical pipe.

        Does this not mean that you lose the advantage of this feature of the fractionating still, its unique ability to separate out the 'cuts', if you will, by re-combining all the different types/alcohols/proofs into the single draw-off tube??

        And would it be worth your while (very little effort involved) to try it out with separate draw-off collection vessels, to see what they produce?

        I would love to hear from someone with more expertise than myself on this, too.

        Regards,

        The Baker


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Janstrom" <t_janstrom@...> wrote:
        >
        > FYI, I just posted a picture of my 6" 8 plate still that is still under
        > construction, but oh so near completion!
        >
        > http://tinyurl.com/y97ll23 including the pot she stands 2m tall. If I were
        > to do it again I'd make the pot just big enough to be the still's boiler
        > (~5L) with a plumbed in waste line and then she would be only 1.5m tall, so
        > I could then use the extra head room to add some more plates (originally the
        > idea was to have 12 plates) and run it more or less as a continuous still
        > while feeding it the contents of a 25L fermenter….
        >
        > BTW as I'm not very good at making up names anyone want to take a stab at
        > giving the young girl a name?
        >
        > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
        >
        > Little Gems.
        >
        > http://tjlittlegems.com <http://tjlittlegems.com/index.htm>
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Thomas Janstrom
        > Sent: Friday, 25 September 2009 9:07 AM
        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and glass
        > outer shell for a Cu coil condenser
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > If you're thinking of going over 6" OD then think seriously about a
        > 15-20plate column. For an 8" OD 15plate column you would be looking at a
        > column height of ~3m. Put the boiler/pot of to one side and it should fit a
        > regular barn with ease. At 15plates you would get ~94% ABV if not better,
        > and have the option of condensing the methanol out into a separate receiver
        > altogether. I'd consider live steam for heat in this size range.
        >
        >
        >
        > Use .9mm thick sheet and a small HF slip roll to form the doughnuts, the
        > rest really is just plumbing…
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
        >
        > Little Gems.
        >
        > http://tjlittlegems.com <http://tjlittlegems.com/index.htm>
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Rufus
        > Sent: Friday, 25 September 2009 7:50 AM
        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and glass outer
        > shell for a Cu coil condenser
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > "gnikomson2000" <gnikomson2000@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > "Rufus" rufusroughguts@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I'm in the design phase for a new distillation unit and and I was
        > looking for a source for 8" or 10" copper pipe. I was hoping to find a
        > vendor who sells the this type of pipe by the foot. I am also looking
        > for the materials to make a copper coil condenser with a glass outer
        > shell.
        > > >
        > > > Rufus
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > You're not serious, are you? That size diameter would be fabricated
        > from Cu sheet, not pipe. And it ain't exactly "hobby" kit either.
        > >
        > > 2" Ø still can produce ~ 1 litre/hr.
        > > 8" Ø still can produce ~ 16 litres/hr
        > > 10" Ø still produces ~ 25 litres/hr
        > >
        > > Then there's material cost.
        > > At present 2" Ø tube is ~ $50/mtr.
        > > A sheet of 36" x 48" is currently $110 ea.
        > >
        > > You'll need about 15 sheets to match height to diam.
        > > We won't even think about height, or weight, or process energy input.
        > >
        > > Let's try to maintain a bit of sanity in these hobby groups
        > discussions, huh?
        > >
        > > Slainte!
        > > regards Harry
        > >
        > Harry I have a farm with a large feed stock so 8" or even 10" is worth
        > considering. As for this group of I often find better insights with
        > this group discussions as these enthusiasts are always pushing the
        > enevelope - your exception is noted. How about information on a copper
        > coil condensers with a glass outer shell. Any thoughts there? By the
        > way I can get find 6" copper but I like to consider 8" too. I'm in the
        > design phase of my effort.
        >
        > Rufus
        >
      • M W
        Hkmmm could you pack between the plates for more efficiency? Just a thought :)
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 28, 2009
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          Hkmmm could you pack between the plates for more efficiency? Just a thought :)
        • Paul Smith
          Each plate is already packed with 2 of water, the vapours passing from the previous plate has to bubble through that water etc. Anything that condenser is
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 28, 2009
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            Each plate is already "packed" with 2" of water, the vapours passing from the previous plate has to bubble through that water etc. Anything that condenser is refluxed to the previous plate.
             
            The only point in the chain where packing in our sense of the term would be in the chimney pipes inside each bubbler cap, 2.5" by 7 layers.... Might be something to look at for version 2. <grin>
             
            P.

            --- On Mon, 28/9/09, M W <rd232d@...> wrote:

            From: M W <rd232d@...>
            Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and glass outer shell for a Cu coil condenser
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Monday, 28 September, 2009, 8:45 AM

             
            Hkmmm could you pack between the plates for more efficiency? Just a thought :)



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          • Rufus
            Thomas et al; I am impressed with your effort. Can you explain the type of plates you are using? Are they bubble cap or perforated? Have you had to clean
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 28, 2009
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              Thomas et al; I am impressed with your effort. Can you explain the
              type of plates you are using? Are they bubble cap or perforated? Have
              you had to clean them yet. When you fabricated your column how did you
              attach your plates? Sorry for all the questions but I think you done so
              good work here. As for your drain lines have you considered putting a
              tee and a bleeder valve on each? You could then test your column at
              each plate and use the liquids for blending.

              Rufus
              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Janstrom" <t_janstrom@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hi Geoff,
              >
              >
              >
              > Yes, and then again no…..
              >
              >
              >
              > Yes it's a fractionating still/column, but the taps along the side
              are not
              > to take of fractions, but to drain the plates after use. If I had been
              able
              > to build it taller (more plates) I would have started putting take off
              > points in from plate 12 onwards, but as she's only 8 plates I
              might as well
              > just take the top fraction and segregate the heads (she's a batch
              still)
              > etc.
              >
              >
              >
              > Think of the stack as more like (in this case) a string of seven
              thumpers
              > running in series, yes I know not the most efficient set up, but by
              the time
              > I found these groups the die was well and truly cast. That said I do
              have
              > the materials to build a 2" OD packed column and might just give
              that a go
              > at some point if only to see what the difference would be out put
              wise.
              >
              >
              >
              > Well I'd better get back to nursing my application for a
              distillers permit
              > through the system. <grin> Nothing harder in this world than trying to
              go
              > legit!
              >
              >
              >
              > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
              >
              > Little Gems.
              >
              > http://tjlittlegems.com <http://tjlittlegems.com/index.htm>
              >
              >
              >
              > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]
              On
              > Behalf Of Geoff
              > Sent: Sunday, 27 September 2009 11:18 PM
              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and glass
              outer
              > shell for a Cu coil condenser
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi, folks, and hello Thomas,
              > First let me say I am not at all an expert in this stuff.
              >
              > Thomas, that picture looks like what I imagine to be called (I think)
              a
              > 'fractionating still/column'.
              > My idea of the way it works is that its reflux action makes
              > differing concentrations of alcohol available at the various draw-off
              points
              > (at each plate) as you have shown.
              >
              > You could have separate taps with a collection vessel for each one.
              >
              > But you have shown all (most?) of these draw-off pipes simply
              combining into
              > a common vertical pipe.
              >
              > Does this not mean that you lose the advantage of this feature of the
              > fractionating still, its unique ability to separate out the 'cuts', if
              you
              > will, by re-combining all the different types/alcohols/proofs into the
              > single draw-off tube??
              >
              > And would it be worth your while (very little effort involved) to try
              it out
              > with separate draw-off collection vessels, to see what they produce?
              >
              > I would love to hear from someone with more expertise than myself on
              this,
              > too.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > The Baker
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              > "Thomas Janstrom" t_janstrom@ wrote:
              > >
              > > FYI, I just posted a picture of my 6" 8 plate still that is still
              under
              > > construction, but oh so near completion!
              > >
              > > http://tinyurl.com/y97ll23 including the pot she stands 2m tall. If
              I were
              > > to do it again I'd make the pot just big enough to be the still's
              boiler
              > > (~5L) with a plumbed in waste line and then she would be only 1.5m
              tall,
              > so
              > > I could then use the extra head room to add some more plates
              (originally
              > the
              > > idea was to have 12 plates) and run it more or less as a continuous
              still
              > > while feeding it the contents of a 25L fermenter….
              > >
              > > BTW as I'm not very good at making up names anyone want to take a
              stab at
              > > giving the young girl a name?
              > >
              > > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
              > >
              > > Little Gems.
              > >
              > > http://tjlittlegems.com <http://tjlittlegems.com/index.htm>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> ]
              > On
              > > Behalf Of Thomas Janstrom
              > > Sent: Friday, 25 September 2009 9:07 AM
              > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and
              glass
              > > outer shell for a Cu coil condenser
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > If you're thinking of going over 6" OD then think seriously about a
              > > 15-20plate column. For an 8" OD 15plate column you would be looking
              at a
              > > column height of ~3m. Put the boiler/pot of to one side and it
              should fit
              > a
              > > regular barn with ease. At 15plates you would get ~94% ABV if not
              better,
              > > and have the option of condensing the methanol out into a separate
              > receiver
              > > altogether. I'd consider live steam for heat in this size range.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Use .9mm thick sheet and a small HF slip roll to form the doughnuts,
              the
              > > rest really is just plumbing…
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
              > >
              > > Little Gems.
              > >
              > > http://tjlittlegems.com <http://tjlittlegems.com/index.htm>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> ]
              > On
              > > Behalf Of Rufus
              > > Sent: Friday, 25 September 2009 7:50 AM
              > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and
              glass
              > outer
              > > shell for a Cu coil condenser
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              > > "gnikomson2000" <gnikomson2000@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              > > "Rufus" rufusroughguts@ wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm in the design phase for a new distillation unit and and I
              was
              > > looking for a source for 8" or 10" copper pipe. I was hoping to find
              a
              > > vendor who sells the this type of pipe by the foot. I am also
              looking
              > > for the materials to make a copper coil condenser with a glass outer
              > > shell.
              > > > >
              > > > > Rufus
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > You're not serious, are you? That size diameter would be
              fabricated
              > > from Cu sheet, not pipe. And it ain't exactly "hobby" kit either.
              > > >
              > > > 2" Ø still can produce ~ 1 litre/hr.
              > > > 8" Ø still can produce ~ 16 litres/hr
              > > > 10" Ø still produces ~ 25 litres/hr
              > > >
              > > > Then there's material cost.
              > > > At present 2" Ø tube is ~ $50/mtr.
              > > > A sheet of 36" x 48" is currently $110 ea.
              > > >
              > > > You'll need about 15 sheets to match height to diam.
              > > > We won't even think about height, or weight, or process energy
              input.
              > > >
              > > > Let's try to maintain a bit of sanity in these hobby groups
              > > discussions, huh?
              > > >
              > > > Slainte!
              > > > regards Harry
              > > >
              > > Harry I have a farm with a large feed stock so 8" or even 10" is
              worth
              > > considering. As for this group of I often find better insights with
              > > this group discussions as these enthusiasts are always pushing the
              > > enevelope - your exception is noted. How about information on a
              copper
              > > coil condensers with a glass outer shell. Any thoughts there? By the
              > > way I can get find 6" copper but I like to consider 8" too. I'm in
              the
              > > design phase of my effort.
              > >
              > > Rufus
              > >
              >
            • Rufus
              lynx can you give me the name of the Syracuse industrial supplier with the 8 pipe?
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 28, 2009
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                lynx can you give me the name of the Syracuse industrial supplier with
                the 8" pipe?
                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Rufus" <rufusroughguts@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you for that info. From what you've written it sounds like you
                > are well on your way. I'm planning on using 15 psi (29 psia) steam to
                > heat the kettle. What are you planning on using for your heat source?
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lynx421" lynx421@ wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Rufus" rufusroughguts@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I'm in the design phase for a new distillation unit and and I was
                > looking for a source for 8" or 10" copper pipe. I was hoping to find a
                > vendor who sells the this type of pipe by the foot. I am also looking
                > for the materials to make a copper coil condenser with a glass outer
                > shell.
                > > >
                > > > Rufus
                > > >
                > >
                > > copper pipe this diameter is very hard to come by... I am also
                > building a commercial still and have substituted 316L stainless steel
                > pipe for copper in the kettle and column for my strip stills... I am
                > using 4 inch copper and a 8 inch brass/ copper heat exchanger for the
                > rectification still.
                > >
                > > If your dead set on copper, i found up to 8 inch at the industrial
                > plumbing supply house special order folks in syracuse NY. very
                > expensive. 125.00 per foot US.
                > >
                > > I look forward to hearing about you build. good luck.
                > >
                > > lynx421
                > >
                >
              • Paul Smith
                Hi Rufus,   The plates are all brazed in place and all have bubbler caps, as it stands I can drain one plate at a time so I can keep those condensed fractions
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 28, 2009
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                  Hi Rufus,
                   
                  The plates are all brazed in place and all have bubbler caps, as it stands I can drain one plate at a time so I can keep those condensed fractions sepperate should wish to do so.
                   
                  In fact I could use the main drain line (vertical pipe outboard of the valves) as a kind of poor condenser and so take of vapour at almost any given plate. I wonder if I could still do that (for the plates above the feed in valve) when running in continuous mode. I guess I'll have to have a play with the plumbing. <grin>
                   
                  I haven't had a chance to test her yet, but will as soon as the last few parts arrive.
                   
                  P.

                  --- On Mon, 28/9/09, Rufus <rufusroughguts@...> wrote:

                  From: Rufus <rufusroughguts@...>
                  Subject: [Distillers] Re: Looking to source 8 " dia. Cu pipe and glass outer shell for a Cu coil condenser
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Monday, 28 September, 2009, 3:32 PM

                   

                  Thomas et al; I am impressed with your effort. Can you explain the
                  type of plates you are using? Are they bubble cap or perforated? Have
                  you had to clean them yet. When you fabricated your column how did you
                  attach your plates? Sorry for all the questions but I think you done so
                  good work here. As for your drain lines have you considered putting a
                  tee and a bleeder valve on each? You could then test your column at
                  each plate and use the liquids for blending.

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