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Re: [Distillers] alcohol as gasline fuel treatment?

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  • rpk@gvtc.com
    On the alcoholfuel forum we have discussed how Brazil runs their entire country (vehicles) on hydrous ethanol (196 Proof) without mixing with gasoline. My
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 15, 2009
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      On the alcoholfuel forum we have discussed how Brazil runs their entire country (vehicles) on hydrous ethanol (196 Proof) without mixing with gasoline.  My friend (A General for Paraguay flies his three airplance on hydrous ethanol attempting to start with 196 proof.  The lowest proof he has used is 186 Proof.  HIs wife will not fly with him.  He does not denature his alcohol and only hires staff that does not drink.  He also checks every tank for Proof prior to take off using a hydrometer.
       
      With the recent change in blending laws in the US (many states) a person should be able to gradually change your percent of ethanol so that you can gradually increase the ehtanol which acts as a solvent to remove petroleum products build-up. Run a few tanks of E 10 then a few tanks of E30 then a few tanks of 50/50 and go on up until you switch to 196 proof.  Yes, you may need to research other conversions and we can talk about that on the alcoholfuel forum.
       
      Join us if you like on the alcoholfuelforum@yahoogroups.com.
       
      Best wishes,
      Peggy

      --- sourkrout8165@... wrote:

      From: keith cottrell <sourkrout8165@...>
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] alcohol as gasline fuel treatment?
      Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:23:59 -0700 (PDT)



      For ethanol alcohol to be used in a car it needs to be 200 proof or 100% abv. if its anything less soon as you mix it with gas it will separate the water from the alcohol and you will get water in your gas tank

      --- On Fri, 8/14/09, mstehelin <mstehelin@...> wrote:

      From: mstehelin <mstehelin@...>
      Subject: [Distillers] alcohol as gasline fuel treatment?
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 6:38 PM

       
      Hello All,
      One silly question. I know that methyl hydrate will help with water in gasoline. Will ethanol do the same? If Yes- at what ABV?
      Thanks
      M.




    • gsatra
      Greetings folks, new Groupy here, The easiest way I found to get as close to 100%ABV was a concept I learned from another science, mineralogy. My father, in
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 16, 2009
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        Greetings folks, new Groupy here,

        The easiest way I found to get as close to 100%ABV was a concept I learned from another science, mineralogy. My father, in addition to being an engineer, was a rock hound and one of his favorite species to collect in our area was Zeolite. This mineral acts as a "molecular seive" http://www.molecularsieve.org/Zeolite_Molecular_Sieve.htm.

        As it turns out, there was a cheap brand of kitty litter at the grocery store that was mostly crushed up zeolite. Doing 10 gallons of fuel at a time, pour in the 20 lb. sack of Zeolite/litter. After a certain length of time, the you get closer to 100%, Then quickly filter and cap. The Zeolite litter then gets dried out in the hot sun and used again. This is the easiest "off the rack anyone can do it" trick I tried to get past the 196 sticking point. Very imprecise and needs some garage/basement research, but plausible for the hobbiest....

        I will roll this over into the alcohol fuel forum.

        _
        G
      • grahamfennie
        Hi Keith (et al), I would like to point out (politely) that you are incorrect, though many people share your misinformed perception. At the risk of getting the
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 16, 2009
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          Hi Keith (et al),

          I would like to point out (politely) that you are incorrect, though many people share your misinformed perception. At the risk of getting the "beverage" folks pissed off at me, I'll just point out one or two things. Please feel free to re-post this to the "fuel" group if you like.

          You can mix "hydrous" ethanol with gasoline without having the mixture separate, but saying that "you can" and "you can't" (either way) is a gross over-simplification.

          Phase separation only occurs when there is TOO much water in the mixture and if the temperature is TOO cold. Some water in the ethanol/gasoline mixture is just fine. In fact, some water in the mixture can be beneficial (increased power, reduced emissions, etc) but that's a much longer e-mail.

          For example, it is true that phase separation CAN occur if you have a mixture of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol, AND if the ethanol is less than about 195 proof AND if the temperature drops below about -25C. Whether the mixture will separate (or not) depends on at least those four variables.

          The University of Denmark (T. Johansen, J. Schramm) did an exhaustive evaluation of "myth vs. reality" and found, among other things, that a 50/50 mixture of ethanol and gasoline would not phase separate (even at -25C), even if the ethanol was only 180 proof. We successfully validated their results in our lab.

          Please read the full text of their research here:
          http://www.iea-amf.vtt.fi/pdf/annex35report_final.pdf

          In addition, ethanol absorbs water and carries it out of your gas tank. Gasoline does not (gas "floats" on the layer of water). The implications of this should be obvious.

          Oh, and by the way, you probably already have water in your gas tank even if you've never used ethanol. Condensation will do that.

          Feel free to contact me directly if you'd like me to explain any of this in detail.

          Cheers!
          -Graham

          Graham A. Fennie
          Founder, Epiphergy
          (585) 385-7677 x111

          "An Energy Epiphany"
          http://www.epiphergy.com


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, keith cottrell <sourkrout8165@...> wrote:
          >
          > For ethanol alcohol to be used in a car it needs to be 200 proof or 100% abv. if its anything less soon as you mix it with gas it will separate the water from the alcohol and you will get water in your gas tank
          >
          > --- On Fri, 8/14/09, mstehelin <mstehelin@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: mstehelin <mstehelin@...>
          > Subject: [Distillers] alcohol as gasline fuel treatment?
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 6:38 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello All,
          >
          > One silly question. I know that methyl hydrate will help with water in gasoline. Will ethanol do the same? If Yes- at what ABV?
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > M.
          >
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