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  • gff_stwrt
    Hi, folks, Is this group working? I haven t had any messages for about four days. Regards, The Baker
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 26, 2009
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      Hi, folks,

      Is this group working? I haven't had any messages for about four days.

      Regards,

      The Baker
    • gff_stwrt
      Well, that came straight through, anyway. The Baker
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 26, 2009
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        Well, that came straight through, anyway.

        The Baker


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi, folks,
        >
        > Is this group working? I haven't had any messages for about four days.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > The Baker
        >
      • Juan Canoura
        ... Hi, folks, I have not receive any messages fir five days. Are we still working? JCSr
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 26, 2009
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          gff_stwrt wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi, folks,
          >
          > Is this group working? I haven't had any messages for about four days.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > The Baker
          >
          >
          Hi, folks,

          I have not receive any messages fir five days. Are we still working?
          JCSr
        • rye_junkie1
          ... Loud and Clear Baker. The Advanced group goes dormant briefly from time to time. Usually a post like yours gets things going again. Mason
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 26, 2009
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            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
            >
            > Well, that came straight through, anyway.
            >
            > The Baker
            >
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi, folks,
            > >
            > > Is this group working? I haven't had any messages for about four days.
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > >
            > > The Baker
            > >
            >

            Loud and Clear Baker. The "Advanced" group goes dormant briefly from time to time.
            Usually a post like yours gets things going again.

            Mason
          • abbababbaccc
            Don t count on it. It s sunny here, I m on vacation and I have several liters of vodka, whisky and redwine at hands. I don t think I m going to come up with
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 26, 2009
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              Don't count on it. It's sunny here, I'm on vacation and I have several liters of vodka, whisky and redwine at hands. I don't think I'm going to come up with anything creative anytime soon ;)

              Well, actually I have a question. At what pH does the continuous formation of ethyl acetate stop?

              Slainte, Riku

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Loud and Clear Baker. The "Advanced" group goes dormant briefly from time to time.
              > Usually a post like yours gets things going again.
              >
              > Mason
              >
            • bo dimitric
              Hi folks, now, is full season of working activity. I dont know what is day, or what is night. APRICOT, PEACH, APPLE, PLUM... Two boilers 120 and 200 litres are
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 26, 2009
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                Hi folks,
                now, is full season of working activity. I dont know what is day, or what is night. APRICOT, PEACH, APPLE, PLUM... Two boilers 120 and 200 litres are wery busy.
                Na zdravlje.
                Bozidar

                --- On Sun, 7/26/09, rye_junkie1 <rye_junkie@...> wrote:

                From: rye_junkie1 <rye_junkie@...>
                Subject: [Distillers] Re: No new messages
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 6:58 PM

                 
                --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > Well, that came straight through, anyway.
                >
                > The Baker
                >
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, folks,
                > >
                > > Is this group working? I haven't had any messages for about four days.
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > >
                > > The Baker
                > >
                >

                Loud and Clear Baker. The "Advanced" group goes dormant briefly from time to time.
                Usually a post like yours gets things going again.

                Mason


              • Harry
                ... liters of vodka, whisky and redwine at hands. I don t think I m going to come up with anything creative anytime soon ;) ... formation of ethyl acetate
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 27, 2009
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Don't count on it. It's sunny here, I'm on vacation and I have several liters of vodka, whisky and redwine at hands. I don't think I'm going to come up with anything creative anytime soon ;)
                  >
                  > Well, actually I have a question. At what pH does the continuous formation of ethyl acetate stop?
                  >
                  > Slainte, Riku

                   

                   

                  You have a bacteria problem.  Vinegar Bacteria (acetobacter) are responsible for ethyl acetate formation.  pH adjustments have little effect on the bacteria because they tolerate the same pH levels as yeasts.  Some even prefer it at pH 3 and below.  Sulfur DiOxide (SO2) is the treatment.  From Ch 13 of Lum Eisenmans' "The Home Winemakers Manual" (in my Library)...

                  Vinegar bacteria (Acetobacter) are found in the vineyard, on the grapes, in the cellar, on the equipment, in the wood of used wine barrels and in the wine. Acetobacter is the bug that converts ethyl alcohol into acetic acid (vinegar). Sometimes, very small amounts of acetic acid in a red wine make a positive contribution to the aroma, but when acetic acid exceeds about 0.04 percent, it produces a burning aftertaste that quickly decreases wine quality. In a warm cellar and with sufficient air present, acetification can progress rapidly, and fine wine can be spoiled in a short time. Along with the acetic acid, vinegar bacteria also produce ethyl acetate, and ethyl acetate has a strong, aromatic smell like finger nail polish remover. This odor is easy to identify, and the smallest hint of ethyl acetate suggests Acetobacter activity in a wine.

                  Vinegar bacteria must have access to large quantities of air to oxidize the alcohol into acetic acid. Colonies of bacteria often develop as thick, wrinkled mats on the surface of the wine where they have direct access to the air. However, vinegar bacteria can and do exist in the bulk of the wine. Barrels infected with vinegar bacteria should be taken out of service because disinfecting materials like wood is nearly impossible. Acetobacter activity is controlled by keeping the sulfur dioxide content of the wine at a reasonable level and by keeping wine containers completely full and tightly sealed.

                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry

                • Harry
                  ... Further info, from Wine Science: Principles and Applications 3rd ed. by Ronald S. Jackson, PhD Of all the esters, ethyl acetate has been the most
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 27, 2009
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                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Well, actually I have a question. At what pH does the continuous
                    > formation of ethyl acetate stop?
                    > >
                    > > Slainte, Riku
                    >


                    Further info, from "Wine Science: Principles and Applications 3rd ed."
                    by Ronald S. Jackson, PhD

                    Of all the esters, ethyl acetate has been the most
                    investigated. In sound wines, the concentration of ethyl
                    acetate generally is below 50–100 mg/liter. At low levels
                    (<50 mg/liter), it may be suitable and add complexity to
                    the fragrance, whereas above 150 mg/liter, it is likely to
                    produce a nail-polish remover, sour-vinegary, off-odor
                    (Amerine and Roessler, 1983). The development of
                    undesirable levels of ethyl acetate is usually associated
                    with grape, must, or wine contamination with acetic
                    acid bacteria. The bacteria not only directly synthesize
                    ethyl acetate, but they also produce acetic acid that can
                    react nonenzymatically with ethanol, forming ethyl acetate.
                    Ethyl acetate can seriously flaw the fragrance of a
                    wine long before the acetic acid level reaches a concentration
                    sufficient to make the wine vinegary.


                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                  • abbababbaccc
                    I don t think it is a problem as such. I routinely rinse all the equipment with hot (60C+) water so there s not going to be any large amount of bacteria left
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 27, 2009
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                      I don't think it is a problem as such. I routinely rinse all the equipment with hot (60C+) water so there's not going to be any large amount of bacteria left after that.

                      Anyway, the issue with ethyl acetate is that a miniscule amount is enough to make ethanol non-neutral. This also means that a miniscule amount of acetic acid is enough to cause detectable continuous formation of ethyl acetate.

                      This actually leads to a thing I've been pondering about. How long does the heads phase typically take when making whisky? Basically the continuous formation happens there as well, although some ethyl acetate flavor is actually desirable thus the cut happens earlier than with neutral alcohol. If this is the case it would indeed be beneficial to take off heads at low power as it would reduce the amount of heads. Alternatively we could try pH treatment and running at high power, although that might change the flavor profile from the usual.

                      Based on my experiments the continuous formation takes two hours, is that the typical time people spend equilibrating the column and removing heads when making neutral alcohol?

                      Somewhat pointless rambling I'm afraid, but at least some traffic was generated so the group seems to be alive.

                      Slainte, Riku

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You have a bacteria problem. Vinegar Bacteria (acetobacter) are
                      > responsible for ethyl acetate formation. pH adjustments have little
                      > effect on the bacteria because they tolerate the same pH levels as
                      > yeasts. Some even prefer it at pH 3 and below. Sulfur DiOxide (SO2) is
                      > the treatment. From Ch 13 of Lum Eisenmans' "The Home Winemakers
                      > Manual" (in my Library)...
                      >
                      > Vinegar bacteria (Acetobacter) are found in the vineyard, on the grapes,
                      > in the cellar, on the equipment, in the wood of used wine barrels and in
                      > the wine. Acetobacter is the bug that converts ethyl alcohol into acetic
                      > acid (vinegar). Sometimes, very small amounts of acetic acid in a red
                      > wine make a positive contribution to the aroma, but when acetic acid
                      > exceeds about 0.04 percent, it produces a burning aftertaste that
                      > quickly decreases wine quality. In a warm cellar and with sufficient air
                      > present, acetification can progress rapidly, and fine wine can be
                      > spoiled in a short time. Along with the acetic acid, vinegar bacteria
                      > also produce ethyl acetate, and ethyl acetate has a strong, aromatic
                      > smell like finger nail polish remover. This odor is easy to identify,
                      > and the smallest hint of ethyl acetate suggests Acetobacter activity in
                      > a wine.
                      >
                      > Vinegar bacteria must have access to large quantities of air to oxidize
                      > the alcohol into acetic acid. Colonies of bacteria often develop as
                      > thick, wrinkled mats on the surface of the wine where they have direct
                      > access to the air. However, vinegar bacteria can and do exist in the
                      > bulk of the wine. Barrels infected with vinegar bacteria should be taken
                      > out of service because disinfecting materials like wood is nearly
                      > impossible. Acetobacter activity is controlled by keeping the sulfur
                      > dioxide content of the wine at a reasonable level and by keeping wine
                      > containers completely full and tightly sealed.
                      >
                      > Slainte!
                      > regards Harry
                      >
                    • Harry
                      ... equipment with hot (60C+) water so there s not going to be any large amount of bacteria left after that. ... enough to make ethanol non-neutral. This also
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 27, 2009
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't think it is a problem as such. I routinely rinse all the equipment with hot (60C+) water so there's not going to be any large amount of bacteria left after that.
                        >
                        > Anyway, the issue with ethyl acetate is that a miniscule amount is enough to make ethanol non-neutral. This also means that a miniscule amount of acetic acid is enough to cause detectable continuous formation of ethyl acetate.

                         

                        Do you recall the post I made to Snuffy on Pint's forum?  It's all about close BP's & azeotropes.  That's why true neutral ethanol is so damn hard to do.  That's also why the authorities allow a tiny bit of contaminants in their definition of "neutral".  Regulations say that a certain amount (in parts per million) is acceptable.  I don't have the relevant sources to hand but if I come across them I'll post them.  Here's part of that other post to refresh your memory...

                        Ethyl acetate and ethanol boil only two degrees apart and have a relative volatility 1.16 which makes it impossible to separate them by conventional distillation or rectification. You need to perform an azeotropic distillation and introduce a third agent. Ethyl acetate is readily separated from ethanol by azeotropic distillation. Effective agents are ethyl ether, methyl formate and cyclohexane.
                        http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5993610.pdf

                        You are correct in that ethyl acetate and water do form an azeotrope. The boiling point of the azeotrope is 70.3 °C and contains 8.5 wt% water. see: http://www.solvent--recycling.com/azeotrope_1.html

                        But ethyl acetate and ethanol also form an azeotrope (and we do know the ratios. see the link above). The BP of the azeotrope is 78.2°C and contains 4 wt% water.

                        Considering pure ethanol boils at 78.3°C and the ethanol/water azeotrope we take off out stills (best we can do) boils at 78.15°C, you can readily see why ethyl acetate cannot be separated, given the extremely close tolerances.

                        Here's something you may like to play with...
                        http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/BatchRectificationOfAnEthanolEthylAcetateBinaryMixture/

                        Enjoy!

                         

                         


                        >
                        > This actually leads to a thing I've been pondering about. How long does the heads phase typically take when making whisky? Basically the continuous formation happens there as well, although some ethyl acetate flavor is actually desirable thus the cut happens earlier than with neutral alcohol. If this is the case it would indeed be beneficial to take off heads at low power as it would reduce the amount of heads. Alternatively we could try pH treatment and running at high power, although that might change the flavor profile from the usual.
                        >
                        > Based on my experiments the continuous formation takes two hours, is that the typical time people spend equilibrating the column and removing heads when making neutral alcohol?

                        ...........For neutrals, longer is always better, but it can never be "perfect" for the reasons I stated above rre azeotropes.  This is also the reason that commercials usually polish the rectified spirit with carbon before bottling as vodka.

                        For whisky, a little heads is good, as is a little tails.  When using a detuned (minimal packing) reflux still, I start taste-testing after 20 minutes equilibration.  I crack the needle valve a tad and taste a drop.  If it's "off", I rapidly flush that lot from the crossflow sump through the LM drain (open the needle valve), then close it again to continue total refluxing.  Another 10 minutes, taste again, flush if necessary.  Repeat until satisfied.  It usually takes no more than 3 flushes or about 40-45 minutes before the taste is acceptable.  Then I switch to the VM side and run as hearts until the vapor temp shows 85°C, at which point the product strength coming off is about 77% a/v.  A switch back to the LM side, and the rest is run out as tails.

                        Be aware that the Grain Whisky the Scots make with their continuous stills for blending purposes, is not a true neutral either.  Legislation says it must come off no higher than 94.5% a/v, to leave the taste and character of the grain.


                        >
                        > Somewhat pointless rambling I'm afraid, but at least some traffic was generated so the group seems to be alive.
                        >
                        > Slainte, Riku

                         

                        Slainte!
                        regards Harry

                      • Robert Hubble
                        Not pointless rambling at all, Riku. While Harry was looking at ethyl acetate formation in the ferment, I kinda thought you were talking about its formation in
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 27, 2009
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                          Not pointless rambling at all, Riku.

                          While Harry was looking at ethyl acetate formation in the ferment, I kinda thought you were talking about its formation in low wines during a spirit run, by the action of acetic acid on ethanol. As far as a measured pH, I can't tell you, but the addition of sodium bicarbonate to the low wines raises the pH enough to reduce ethyl acetate formation greatly.

                          Sorry I don't have numbers, but a handfull of bicarb in the por will clean up your neutral a lot. When I want vodka, I triple-distill my collected feints with bicarb and get very clean neutral.

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          From: abbababbaccc@...
                          Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:09:31 +0000
                          Subject: [Distillers] Re: No new messages

                           
                          I don't think it is a problem as such. I routinely rinse all the equipment with hot (60C+) water so there's not going to be any large amount of bacteria left after that.

                          Anyway, the issue with ethyl acetate is that a miniscule amount is enough to make ethanol non-neutral. This also means that a miniscule amount of acetic acid is enough to cause detectable continuous formation of ethyl acetate.

                          This actually leads to a thing I've been pondering about. How long does the heads phase typically take when making whisky? Basically the continuous formation happens there as well, although some ethyl acetate flavor is actually desirable thus the cut happens earlier than with neutral alcohol. If this is the case it would indeed be beneficial to take off heads at low power as it would reduce the amount of heads. Alternatively we could try pH treatment and running at high power, although that might change the flavor profile from the usual.

                          Based on my experiments the continuous formation takes two hours, is that the typical time people spend equilibrating the column and removing heads when making neutral alcohol?

                          Somewhat pointless rambling I'm afraid, but at least some traffic was generated so the group seems to be alive.

                          Slainte, Riku



                          NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.
                        • Robert Hubble
                          Or, you could remove the acetate radical completely from the vapor. I believe the ethyl acetate molecule hydrolyzes, especially at higher temperatures. When
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 27, 2009
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                            Or, you could remove the acetate radical completely from the vapor. I believe the ethyl acetate molecule hydrolyzes, especially at higher temperatures. When the acetate ion meets the sodium ion, it forms the non-volatile salt sodium acetate.

                            Poof, no ethyl acetate.

                            That's how I remember it, anyway.

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                            ----snip----

                            Considering pure ethanol boils at 78.3°C and the ethanol/water azeotrope we take off out stills (best we can do) boils at 78.15°C, you can readily see why ethyl acetate cannot be separated, given the extremely close tolerances.

                            Here's something you may like to play with...
                            http://demonstratio ns.wolfram. com/BatchRectifi cationOfAnEthano lEthylAcetateBin aryMixture/

                            Enjoy!
                             
                             
                            ----snip----


                            Bing™ brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
                          • Harry
                            ... Why I looked at the ferment was...if you reduce or prevent or eliminate as much acetic acid as possible there, you obviously reduce the likelyhood of
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 27, 2009
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                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Not pointless rambling at all, Riku.
                              >
                              > While Harry was looking at ethyl acetate formation in the ferment, I kinda thought you were talking about its formation in low wines during a spirit run, by the action of acetic acid on ethanol. As far as a measured pH, I can't tell you, but the addition of sodium bicarbonate to the low wines raises the pH enough to reduce ethyl acetate formation greatly.
                              >
                              > Sorry I don't have numbers, but a handfull of bicarb in the por will clean up your neutral a lot. When I want vodka, I triple-distill my collected feints with bicarb and get very clean neutral.
                              >
                              > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


                              Why I looked at the ferment was...if you reduce or prevent or eliminate as much acetic acid as possible there, you obviously reduce the likelyhood of excess ethyl acetate being formed in the distillation because the precursor (acetic acid) is not there (or in minimal dosages).

                              Here's a point to ponder, ZB. Sodium Bicarbonate works because it removes non-condensable gases from the low wines/ stillcharge/ vapor. There are always noncondensable gases in a distillation. Things like hydrogen sulfide, carbon dioxide and ammonia. Bicarb adsorbs them, just as it adsorbs odors in the refrigerator when you place an open container of it (bicarb) in there. It behaves similar to activated carbon. There is the reason for the cleanup of neutral spirit.

                              Slainte!
                              regards Harry
                            • rye_junkie1
                              ... I have been trying to get to this one for a week now. Why would this flushing method not work for a neutral run. Once the column is equalized the low
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > For whisky, a little heads is good, as is a little tails. When using a
                                > detuned (minimal packing) reflux still, I start taste-testing after 20
                                > minutes equilibration. I crack the needle valve a tad and taste a drop.
                                > If it's "off", I rapidly flush that lot from the crossflow sump through
                                > the LM drain (open the needle valve), then close it again to continue
                                > total refluxing. Another 10 minutes, taste again, flush if necessary.
                                > Repeat until satisfied. It usually takes no more than 3 flushes or
                                > about 40-45 minutes before the taste is acceptable. Then I switch to
                                > the VM side and run as hearts until the vapor temp shows 85°C, at
                                > which point the product strength coming off is about 77% a/v. A switch
                                > back to the LM side, and the rest is run out as tails.

                                > Slainte!
                                > regards Harry
                                >

                                I have been trying to get to this one for a week now. Why would this flushing method not work for a neutral run. Once the column is equalized the low boiling point stuff is at the top, correct? If the sump in the rig, Say the Cross Flow or a well made Offset head, holds 30-50ml, a quick purging a couple of times SHOULD get this stuff out of the rig faster. Currently for a neutral run I collect the first 200-300ml(or more) at the alarmingly slow rate of about that 300ml/hour. I get some really nice Spirit for the effort but with the above being said, Is it necessary?

                                Mason
                              • abbababbaccc
                                ... Yes, it is necessary due to the continuous formation of ethyl acetate unless you do the pH trick. Flushing for neutral spirits presents a problem of
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > For whisky, a little heads is good, as is a little tails. When using a
                                  > > detuned (minimal packing) reflux still, I start taste-testing after 20
                                  > > minutes equilibration. I crack the needle valve a tad and taste a drop.
                                  > > If it's "off", I rapidly flush that lot from the crossflow sump through
                                  > > the LM drain (open the needle valve), then close it again to continue
                                  > > total refluxing. Another 10 minutes, taste again, flush if necessary.
                                  > > Repeat until satisfied. It usually takes no more than 3 flushes or
                                  > > about 40-45 minutes before the taste is acceptable. Then I switch to
                                  > > the VM side and run as hearts until the vapor temp shows 85°C, at
                                  > > which point the product strength coming off is about 77% a/v. A switch
                                  > > back to the LM side, and the rest is run out as tails.
                                  >
                                  > > Slainte!
                                  > > regards Harry
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > I have been trying to get to this one for a week now. Why would this flushing method not work for a neutral run. Once the column is equalized the low boiling point stuff is at the top, correct? If the sump in the rig, Say the Cross Flow or a well made Offset head, holds 30-50ml, a quick purging a couple of times SHOULD get this stuff out of the rig faster. Currently for a neutral run I collect the first 200-300ml(or more) at the alarmingly slow rate of about that 300ml/hour. I get some really nice Spirit for the effort but with the above being said, Is it necessary?
                                  >
                                  > Mason
                                  >

                                  Yes, it is necessary due to the continuous formation of ethyl acetate unless you do the pH trick.

                                  Flushing for neutral spirits presents a problem of switching the column for zero reflux untill the LM reservoir fills. It can of course be fixed with added stabilization time but the problem now is that the LM reservoir has some nasties in it from that zero reflux period and they flow back to the column. If they have lower boiling point than ethanol they stay at the LM reservoir and at the top of the packing.

                                  I actually did some experimentation on the subject today (details in the ARC forum) and there are indeed quite a lot of variables in play when we talk about heads removal. So far it seems that one hour for neutral spirits is the limit, but perhaps that can be improved with further research.

                                  Slainte, Riku
                                • eric_yendall
                                  Riku Could you elaborate on the pH trick . By this, do you mean the addition of bicarb to the spirit run? How does this change the heads collection
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 3, 2009
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                                    Riku

                                    Could you elaborate on the "pH trick". By this, do you mean the addition of bicarb to the spirit run? How does this change the heads collection (flushing)? Thanks.

                                    Eric

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > For whisky, a little heads is good, as is a little tails. When using a
                                    > > > detuned (minimal packing) reflux still, I start taste-testing after 20
                                    > > > minutes equilibration. I crack the needle valve a tad and taste a drop.
                                    > > > If it's "off", I rapidly flush that lot from the crossflow sump through
                                    > > > the LM drain (open the needle valve), then close it again to continue
                                    > > > total refluxing. Another 10 minutes, taste again, flush if necessary.
                                    > > > Repeat until satisfied. It usually takes no more than 3 flushes or
                                    > > > about 40-45 minutes before the taste is acceptable. Then I switch to
                                    > > > the VM side and run as hearts until the vapor temp shows 85°C, at
                                    > > > which point the product strength coming off is about 77% a/v. A switch
                                    > > > back to the LM side, and the rest is run out as tails.
                                    > >
                                    > > > Slainte!
                                    > > > regards Harry
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I have been trying to get to this one for a week now. Why would this flushing method not work for a neutral run. Once the column is equalized the low boiling point stuff is at the top, correct? If the sump in the rig, Say the Cross Flow or a well made Offset head, holds 30-50ml, a quick purging a couple of times SHOULD get this stuff out of the rig faster. Currently for a neutral run I collect the first 200-300ml(or more) at the alarmingly slow rate of about that 300ml/hour. I get some really nice Spirit for the effort but with the above being said, Is it necessary?
                                    > >
                                    > > Mason
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Yes, it is necessary due to the continuous formation of ethyl acetate unless you do the pH trick.
                                    >
                                    > Flushing for neutral spirits presents a problem of switching the column for zero reflux untill the LM reservoir fills. It can of course be fixed with added stabilization time but the problem now is that the LM reservoir has some nasties in it from that zero reflux period and they flow back to the column. If they have lower boiling point than ethanol they stay at the LM reservoir and at the top of the packing.
                                    >
                                    > I actually did some experimentation on the subject today (details in the ARC forum) and there are indeed quite a lot of variables in play when we talk about heads removal. So far it seems that one hour for neutral spirits is the limit, but perhaps that can be improved with further research.
                                    >
                                    > Slainte, Riku
                                    >
                                  • abbababbaccc
                                    By changing the pH of the low wines from acid to basic you ll stop (actually reverse the process - thus you ll get a miniscule amount extra ethanol) the
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 3, 2009
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                                      By changing the pH of the low wines from acid to basic you'll stop (actually reverse the process - thus you'll get a miniscule amount extra ethanol) the continuous formation of ethyl acetate. This in turn reduces the time you'll be collecting ethyl acetate tainted spirits from your still.

                                      Slainte, Riku

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "eric_yendall" <eric_yendall@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Riku
                                      >
                                      > Could you elaborate on the "pH trick". By this, do you mean the addition of bicarb to the spirit run? How does this change the heads collection (flushing)? Thanks.
                                      >
                                      > Eric
                                      >
                                      >
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